Hey DE, care to explain this? (Undesirable effects of a flawed DPS cap.)

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Removing the cap isnt a solution to poor ranged, that is the whole thing that actually needs a fix. Removing the cap still keeps ranged as utter S#&$e compared to melee for everything else, except for a few specific gun. It would also scew the outcome on fights that had the cap introduced specifically with ranged in mind. Not everything that has a cap is a paper acolyte.

Never claimed it was the entire fix to all of gun's problems, but it would help with this particular instance.

"It would also scew the outcome on fights that had the cap introduced specifically with ranged in mind."
What does that even mean. You mean "screw the outcome" as in "hey guns are now useful vs the target beyond being a primer?"

"Not everything that has a cap is a paper acolyte."
You seem to think that's an argument in your favor? All the more reason for caps to go.
 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

People complain about bandaids alot, yet here we are with another bandaid solution from the community itself, in relation to the most trivial mob using the system in question. This so called "fix" would only apply to something each 3-5 minutes in a mission, versus a single specific mob. Man what an outstanding fix to the ranged category!

Nice hyperbole and mindset there. You've also twisted the ideas. The goal is to help guns vs a particular enemy they suffer heavily against, not fix all their problems.

And all this time could've been saved by just saying that yes, you do want to keep the status quo.

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

People complain about bandaids alot, yet here we are with another bandaid solution from the community itself,

Analogies are inherently flawed but that seems downright twisted.  It's  much more like the DPS cap is a bandaid mechanic--or even better, a crusty tourniquet mechanic--that's  concealing the underlying infection.  And not doing a very good job of it, because the patient is getting feverish, the wound stinks, and--oh god-- the pus is getting everywhere.

Ok, I think I've taken that one further than it should have gone.

Anyway, if nothing else, it's time to change the dressing.

 

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Never claimed it was the entire fix to all of gun's problems, but it would help with this particular instance.

"It would also scew the outcome on fights that had the cap introduced specifically with ranged in mind."
What does that even mean. You mean "screw the outcome" as in "hey guns are now useful vs the target beyond being a primer?"

"Not everything that has a cap is a paper acolyte."
You seem to think that's an argument in your favor? All the more reason for caps to go.
 

Nice hyperbole and mindset there. You've also twisted the ideas. The goal is to help guns vs a particular enemy they suffer heavily against, not fix all their problems.

And all this time could've been saved by just saying that yes, you do want to keep the status quo.

Of course you didnt, never implied you did either. I am however saying it is pointless since they should focus on actually fixing the category for everything. Why waste time on something that can actually be solved by reworking the category as a whole? 

What do you think it means? There are several enemies that are fully immune to melee that relies on the damage cap for balance versus ranged. 

No, not a reason for the cap to go if you consider the above. It is there for a reason. If anything they could make acolytes immune to melee or give them block mechanics that currently only exsist on certain mobs versus ranged attacks.

I havent twisted anything, I've simply said it is pointless to rework something twice to solve a an issue. And I wouldnt call it "suffering heavy against" when the thing you fight is a simple pushover fight that takes seconds.

And nope, still not about keeping the status quo, it is about fixing the actual overarching problem for ranged in the game. The fun part though is iirc correctly, the OP is the exact same person that has time and time again claimed "ranged is fine" while posting 5 minute Steel Path survival videos as a backup.

8 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Analogies are inherently flawed but that seems downright twisted.  It's  much more like the DPS cap is a bandaid mechanic--or even better, a crusty tourniquet mechanic--that's  concealing the underlying infection.  And not doing a very good job of it, because the patient is getting feverish, the wound stinks, and--oh god-- the pus is getting everywhere.

Ok, I think I've taken that one further than it should have gone.

Anyway, if nothing else, it's time to change the dressing.

I never said the current system isnt a bandaid. It does however not make the "solution" here less of a baindaid, something the community already hates. But I guess demanding proper fixes is only important when it helps throw dirt and blame on the devs, like it is on most game community forums.

[Tiltskillet]

18 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It does however not make the "solution" here less of a baindaid, something the community already hates. But I guess demanding proper fixes is only important when it helps throw dirt and blame on the devs, like it is on most game community forums.

It seems like that's fabricating  "community" targets just to get angry at them.  The community doesn't hate bandaids, but individuals in it do.  And many more dislike some bandaids, enjoy others, and couldn't care less about the rest.   Not like there's any consensus on what actual bandaids are, anyway.

And this thread isn't about castigating DE as a company, although some posts in it lean more that way.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Tiltskillet said:

It seems like that's fabricating  "community" targets just to get angry at them.  The community doesn't hate bandaids, but individuals in it do.  And many more dislike some bandaids, enjoy others, and couldn't care less about the rest.   Not like there's any consensus on what actual bandaids are, anyway.

And this thread isn't about castigating DE as a company, although some posts in it lean more that way.

I thought the use of the word community was clearly understood to refer to certain parts of it, not the whole. And everyone that refers to something as a bandaid tends to dislike it, it is afterall a negative description of something since it doesnt actually fix the issue, it just covers it up. I cant recall a single time when someone has been positive to something while calling it a bandaid. I've seen people defend bandaids as actual fixes though.

And no, I know it isnt about castigating DE, never implied it was. I simply implied that the people that tend to do it are often very hypocritical and use whatever suits their need. And like I said, this isnt something specific to Warframe, that is just angry gamer mentality, it has always been like that and will likely keep being so forever.

It isnt like there is extensive data in the thread either. We have a single weapon example done in two trial attempts. And the OP doesnt seem interested in testing others to see if this holds true in the same way to other guns. I mean, we already know there is a massive gap between melee and ranged, but the issue highlighted in this thread is really not the issue. I mean, the OP has already defended the power of ranged weapons as a whole in another of his threads from back in feb. Nothing has changed since then, so how come this new discovery is important to him?

[Tiltskillet]

49 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I thought the use of the word community was clearly understood to refer to certain parts of it, not the whole.

I'm glad you clarified you were referring to the "Anti-Bandaid Community" 😉

 

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And everyone that refers to something as a bandaid tends to dislike it, it is afterall a negative description of something since it doesnt actually fix the issue, it just covers it up. I cant recall a single time when someone has been positive to something while calling it a bandaid. I've seen people defend bandaids as actual fixes though.

We're saying just about the same thing then.

 

54 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It isnt like there is extensive data in the thread either. We have a single weapon example done in two trial attempts. And the OP doesnt seem interested in testing others to see if this holds true in the same way to other guns. I mean, we already know there is a massive gap between melee and ranged, but the issue highlighted in this thread is really not the issue. I mean, the OP has already defended the power of ranged weapons as a whole in another of his threads from back in feb. Nothing has changed since then, so how come this new discovery is important to him?

I wouldn't care to speculate when we can just ask the OP.  @Traumtulpe ?

The OP at least deserves credit for providing -some- data, unlike most of us.  And that data can be supported or refuted on its own, rather than the Steel Path Tonkor thread I presume you're talking about.

[FireSegment]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It isnt like there is extensive data in the thread either. We have a single weapon example done in two trial attempts. And the OP doesnt seem interested in testing others to see if this holds true in the same way to other guns.

The first 3 pages of this thread already made it clear that the DPS cap exist and perfectly explained OP test. Multiple people already immediately provided work around (more crit and and lower fire rate) imply they also already encountered this problem before. This isn't new, but it doesn't make it less frustrating.

Unless someone are willing to contest that "no, DPS cap don't exist" with their own number, what test we have here are already enough. the data that matter are already presented.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I mean, we already know there is a massive gap between melee and ranged, but the issue highlighted in this thread is really not the issue.

This thread isn't about that gap since the beginning, and no, the issues highlighting here matter.

What this thread about was clearly stated a few time already - the DPS cap made investment in fire rate and damage buffs evaporated - without any immediate explanation if the player do not know about this DPS cap beforehand.

May be it's not an "issue" in normal game play right now as one can always fall back to using their melee, but it is a big problem when we trying to discuss and building primary/secondary weapon, as it would shift the heuristic against high level enemy drastically.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I mean, the OP has already defended the power of ranged weapons as a whole in another of his threads from back in feb. Nothing has changed since then, so how come this new discovery is important to him?

.... seriously?

Idk about OP other threads, but are you expecting a guy who tinkering with gun play enough to make threads ... to not consider the discovery of this DPS cap important?

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

34 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

What do you think it means? There are several enemies that are fully immune to melee that relies on the damage cap for balance versus ranged. 

Such as? Melee is certainly difficult verses some, but I fail to come up with any that are immune.

34 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No, not a reason for the cap to go if you consider the above. It is there for a reason. If anything they could make acolytes immune to melee or give them block mechanics that currently only exsist on certain mobs versus ranged attacks.

Having a block mechanic would be much more engaging that just a speed limit is "xxx" dps.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And I wouldnt call it "suffering heavy against" when the thing you fight is a simple pushover fight that takes seconds.

The distinction was between guns and melee, not the overall time.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And nope, still not about keeping the status quo, it is about fixing the actual overarching problem for ranged in the game.

So we can start small and work our way up.

[SneakyErvin]

59 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Such as? Melee is certainly difficult verses some, but I fail to come up with any that are immune.

Having a block mechanic would be much more engaging that just a speed limit is "xxx" dps.

The distinction was between guns and melee, not the overall time.

So we can start small and work our way up.

Lephantis, toddler Lephantis etc. They are practically immune aside from gunblades.

Yeah, I'd say go block chance versus melee and intricate weakpoints for ranged (because we dont have enough salt regarding the twitchy behavior of some mobs and their weakpoints).

I thought this thread was about different stats for rangeded weapon and how they interact with the cap.

Which would waste time that could be spent on fixing the main problem quicker since removing the cap would add no benefit to the primary fix.

1 hour ago, FireSegment said:

The first 3 pages of this thread already made it clear that the DPS cap exist and perfectly explained OP test. Multiple people already immediately provided work around (more crit and and lower fire rate) imply they also already encountered this problem before. This isn't new, but it doesn't make it less frustrating.

Unless someone are willing to contest that "no, DPS cap don't exist" with their own number, what test we have here are already enough. the data that matter are already presented.

This thread isn't about that gap since the beginning, and no, the issues highlighting here matter.

What this thread about was clearly stated a few time already - the DPS cap made investment in fire rate and damage buffs evaporated - without any immediate explanation if the player do not know about this DPS cap beforehand.

May be it's not an "issue" in normal game play right now as one can always fall back to using their melee, but it is a big problem when we trying to discuss and building primary/secondary weapon, as it would shift the heuristic against high level enemy drastically.

.... seriously?

Idk about OP other threads, but are you expecting a guy who tinkering with gun play enough to make threads ... to not consider the discovery of this DPS cap important?

Yeah, the thread is about certain stats and how they effect an underperforming category of weapons when facing the damage cap, not about ranged vs melee. The problem still rests in that ranged is underperforming, something the OP has previously stated in other self created threads isnt the case. Hence why it is odd to see this thread out of the blue when ranged has far bigger issues that needs to get solved, issues apparently not there according to OP. This is an isolated problem regarding the TTK difference for a specific weapon with different "modding", a TTK difference so small it is barely noticable to the human eye when watching the videos next to eachother.

Efficiency and high performace already left the building when people start discussing the building of primary and secondary weapons. No matter what you manage to squeeze out of the categories it ends up underperforming either way if you are looking for the best possible outcome. Ranged (except for a select few weapons) will always only be useful as primers, or in fights where there are no other options. That will never be fixed by removing the cap so fire rate can live up to its full potential versus capped enemies. There will never be a moment when someone faces 50 enemies and goes "I better pull out my <insert 99% of the ranged weapons here>!".

It isnt just that ranged weapons overall lack damage output and requires ammo aswell as reloading. It is also that the majority of them lack ways to tackle several mobs at the time effectively. It is a horde game, single target weapons just dont serve a good purpose here. I'm gonna sound like a proken record here, but anyways, DE could really take a look at Outriders to see what makes even weak gunplay builds useful with a gun. Something that could make single target weapons here useful aswell. Just a quick look at mods in Outriders and you have a multitude of options that could be translated to Warframe.

Strings of Gauss. Shots proc lighting that can hit up to 5 targets within a 5m range, deals 70k damage (in that game at max level). 3 sec CD, but on shotguns each enemy hit procs the effect.

Ricochette. Kinda the same deal but only makes the rounds chain between targets.

Shadow Comet. Hits call down a comet on the enemy, 3 meter radius, deals 220k damage or so on max level. 3 sec CD but shotguns proc on each enemy hit.

Similar mods could be used here instead of the same old +multishot, damage and so on. Problem is, DE would need to make them scale so we dont just end up with procs we get from some warframe mods that practically do nothing. Now imagine what a couple of well designed mods in such a fashion could do when combined with otherwise halfly lackluster mods such as punch through (that really are just bandaids atm), or on weapons with innate punch through. Gas used to somewhat have this effect, making certain weapons like the Opticor Vandal forces to be reckoned with. That sadly died though.

[FireSegment]

38 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yeah, the thread is about certain stats and how they effect an underperforming category of weapons when facing the damage cap, not about ranged vs melee. The problem still rests in that ranged is underperforming, something the OP has previously stated in other self created threads isnt the case. Hence why it is odd to see this thread out of the blue when ranged has far bigger issues that needs to get solved, issues apparently not there according to OP. This is an isolated problem regarding the TTK difference for a specific weapon with different "modding", a TTK difference so small it is barely noticable to the human eye when watching the videos next to eachother.

i do not see OP mention the effectiveness of guns overal  even once in this thread, may be i missed it, idk. The TTK of the OP example are still fast, the gun still kill the acolyte quick enough. 

The effectiveness of Catabolyst isn't what OP make the thread about. He could be actually satisfy with the damage number for all we know.

It feel weird to me of why you seem to be so keen on pulling his opinion from other thread here. If you have disagreement of what exactly is the most critical issue for secondary with OP somewhere else, why not keep that discussion over there?

About the TTK, the expectation was that the 2 example in OP should have drastically different TTK, yet they are - as you said it -  almost the same, and the explanation of the oddity was the existence of the DPS cap. They should be different, but they aren't.

 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Efficiency and high performace already left the building when people start discussing the building of primary and secondary weapons. No matter what you manage to squeeze out of the categories it ends up underperforming either way if you are looking for the best possible outcome. Ranged (except for a select few weapons) will always only be useful as primers, or in fights where there are no other options. That will never be fixed by removing the cap so fire rate can live up to its full potential versus capped enemies. There will never be a moment when someone faces 50 enemies and goes "I better pull out my <insert 99% of the ranged weapons here>!".

It isnt just that ranged weapons overall lack damage output and requires ammo aswell as reloading. It is also that the majority of them lack ways to tackle several mobs at the time effectively. It is a horde game, single target weapons just dont serve a good purpose here. I'm gonna sound like a proken record here, but anyways, DE could really take a look at Outriders to see what makes even weak gunplay builds useful with a gun. Something that could make single target weapons here useful aswell. Just a quick look at mods in Outriders and you have a multitude of options that could be translated to Warframe.

Strings of Gauss. Shots proc lighting that can hit up to 5 targets within a 5m range, deals 70k damage (in that game at max level). 3 sec CD, but on shotguns each enemy hit procs the effect.

Ricochette. Kinda the same deal but only makes the rounds chain between targets.

Shadow Comet. Hits call down a comet on the enemy, 3 meter radius, deals 220k damage or so on max level. 3 sec CD but shotguns proc on each enemy hit.

Similar mods could be used here instead of the same old +multishot, damage and so on. Problem is, DE would need to make them scale so we dont just end up with procs we get from some warframe mods that practically do nothing. Now imagine what a couple of well designed mods in such a fashion could do when combined with otherwise halfly lackluster mods such as punch through (that really are just bandaids atm), or on weapons with innate punch through. Gas used to somewhat have this effect, making certain weapons like the Opticor Vandal forces to be reckoned with. That sadly died though.

.... Sorry but all i see are just strings of off-topic problems here, as you are still pushing that melee-range angle, and then expanding it to damage abilities, so i'm not gonna comment on that.

Sure those are still serious problem, but may be make a different thread for them.

 

 

[Traumtulpe]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

ranged is underperforming, something the OP has previously stated in other self created threads isnt the case. [...] a TTK difference so small it is barely noticable to the human eye

I seem to recall having stated that ranged weapons are not bad in general, citing snipers and launchers as examples, which are actually better than melee in certain situations. Also, I do not consider a 20% DPS loss, from equipping a theoretically significant DPS boost, "barely noticable".

If you want an opinion on melee vs guns that is relevant to this thread, here you go: I usually don't use all of my weapons in any given mission, instead I build around a specific weapon to make it more effective. As an example, I will use Arcanes that support the chosen playstyle. A high fire rate, status focussed, single target gun will never be as effective against an Acolyte as the alternatives are. Nor will it be as effective against fodder. So I will never build around it, I will never enjoy using it, as it is always strictly worse than the alternatives.

A single target gun needs to be able to outperform AoE weapons against single targets. That much is obvious, no? Yet DPS cap and status immunity make this impossible for quite a few, my Kuva Tonkor kills fodder 20x as fast as the Catabolyst, AND it kills Acolytes faster too (because of the way crit works around the DPS cap).

In short, guns aren't bad, certain kinds of guns are obsolete. High rate of fire, single target, high status, low crit? Completely useless. The only good guns are AoE, or single target high crit. Because you either kill hordes of fodder, or single targets immune to anything but crits.

By the way, there are useless melee weapons as well, like the Arum Spinosa. Really bad crit, low range, but high status. Why would anyone ever use this thing?

If I were to advise DE, I'd say relax rate of fire's contribution to the DPS cap equation, change it from a hard cap to diminishing returns (adjust as you see fit), and make status chance as valuable as crit (a significant, diminishing return bypassing souce of damage). Then add ~6 cool new mods that, among other things, enable guns to deal AoE damage (in theory players should be able to achieve this via electric or gas procs, in practice these status effects are subpar and not an option, so maybe rework status as well while you are at it).

 

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

DE should just squish our damage numbers directly in ways most players can understand instead of applying voodoo mathematics under the hood that requires players to compile spreadsheets.

Make Critical Damage and Viral procs additive with Base Damage. Get rid of the headshot multiplier, headshots just have a flat +100% Critical Chance. That would narrow the gap between the highest performers and lowest performers.

Enemy armor shouldn't scale. It's the core thing that pushes the Bleed meta.

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, FireSegment said:

It feel weird to me of why you seem to be so keen on pulling his opinion from other thread here. If you have disagreement of what exactly is the most critical issue for secondary with OP somewhere else, why not keep that discussion over there?

It just seems odd to bring up an issue that could be fixed by fixing the actual issue, which according to the OP isnt really an issue. It is also odd to base something on so little testing. I mean one gun, tested once per build, versus one mob. That gives no actual data at all since there are so many RNG factors involed in the damage output of the gun, such as multishot.

And you say there should be a drastic difference between the two tests. Wouldnt that kinda render the system moot and show it doesnt work to achieve what it intends to since it can get circumvented massively by a single stat in such a case? Right now it shows that it works, since it evens out the dps with no real circumvention (there are a few options).

14 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

I seem to recall having stated that ranged weapons are not bad in general, citing snipers and launchers as examples, which are actually better than melee in certain situations. Also, I do not consider a 20% DPS loss, from equipping a theoretically significant DPS boost, "barely noticable".

If you want an opinion on melee vs guns that is relevant to this thread, here you go: I usually don't use all of my weapons in any given mission, instead I build around a specific weapon to make it more effective. As an example, I will use Arcanes that support the chosen playstyle. A high fire rate, status focussed, single target gun will never be as effective against an Acolyte as the alternatives are. Nor will it be as effective against fodder. So I will never build around it, I will never enjoy using it, as it is always strictly worse than the alternatives.

A single target gun needs to be able to outperform AoE weapons against single targets. That much is obvious, no? Yet DPS cap and status immunity make this impossible for quite a few, my Kuva Tonkor kills fodder 20x as fast as the Catabolyst, AND it kills Acolytes faster too (because of the way crit works around the DPS cap).

In short, guns aren't bad, certain kinds of guns are obsolete. High rate of fire, single target, high status, low crit? Completely useless. The only good guns are AoE, or single target high crit. Because you either kill hordes of fodder, or single targets immune to anything but crits.

By the way, there are useless melee weapons as well, like the Arum Spinosa. Really bad crit, low range, but high status. Why would anyone ever use this thing?

If I were to advise DE, I'd say relax rate of fire's contribution to the DPS cap equation, change it from a hard cap to diminishing returns (adjust as you see fit), and make status chance as valuable as crit (a significant, diminishing return bypassing souce of damage). Then add ~6 cool new mods that, among other things, enable guns to deal AoE damage (in theory players should be able to achieve this via electric or gas procs, in practice these status effects are subpar and not an option, so maybe rework status as well while you are at it).

I honestly dont think they can relax the rate of fire contribution to the dps cap since it is a multiplier acting the way it is and the cap is based on a dps cap. So if the cap is 1000dps and you can deal 1000 per shot with a fire rate of 1, and you then add 100% fire rate, you would in the end sit at 500 damage per shot but still achieve 1000 dps catering to the cap. Versus everything else you'd deal 2000dps. It is why crit can work as it does around the cap since it is a multiplier that happens after the hit is registered, so after the cap calculation is made. Rate of fire as a whole would likely require a fullblown rework to work differently with the cap. Also, it depends alot on the weapon. Catabolyst is a low mag weapon, if you use a bigger mag weapon, the drawback of the fire rate modding wont have the same impact, because you need to reload less often, so the dps evens out more.

And yeah there are crap melee, but even those crap melee stay competative with the few useful ranged weapons.

 

 

 

 

[Traumtulpe]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I honestly dont think they can relax the rate of fire contribution to the dps cap since it is a multiplier acting the way it is and the cap is based on a dps cap. So if the cap is 1000dps and you can deal 1000 per shot with a fire rate of 1, and you then add 100% fire rate, you would in the end sit at 500 damage per shot but still achieve 1000 dps catering to the cap. [...] It is why crit can work as it does around the cap since it is a multiplier that happens after the hit is registered, so after the cap calculation is made. [...] Catabolyst is a low mag weapon, if you use a bigger mag weapon, the drawback of the fire rate modding wont have the same impact [...] And yeah there are crap melee, but even those crap melee stay competative with the few useful ranged weapons.

That's not how any of this works, DE applies a formula to calculate your DPS and then reduces your damage per hit by a percentage according to the amount of DPS you have in excess of the allowance. Relaxing the contribution of fire rate is EXTREMELY simple, just count anything over 100% as half of the actual value in the formula. So your 200% would count as 150%. The result would be just as simple, you'd deal a little more damage per hit.

Critical chance works around this, because it is not present in the formula. You could simply remove fire rate from the formula as well, if you wanted to.

Lastly, I actually use the primed reload mod on the Catabolyst, reducing reload time to 0.9 seconds, and while the mag may look fairly average, each shot only consumes 0.5 bullets, making it excellent after all.

The Arum Spinosa is not comparable to a Kuva Tonkor. Not even with squinted eyes, not with a Riven, not against anything. Not at all.

Unfortunately, I have to tell you that you are flat out wrong on all accounts.

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

That's not how any of this works, DE applies a formula to calculate your DPS and then reduces your damage per hit by a percentage according to the amount of DPS you have in excess of the allowance. Relaxing the contribution of fire rate is EXTREMELY simple, just count anything over 100% as half of the actual value in the formula. So your 200% would count as 150%. The result would be just as simple, you'd deal a little more damage per hit.

Critical chance works around this, because it is not present in the formula. You could simply remove fire rate from the formula as well, if you wanted to.

Lastly, I actually use the primed reload mod on the Catabolyst, reducing reload time to 0.9 seconds, and while the mag may look fairly average, each shot only consumes 0.5 bullets, making it excellent after all.

The Arum Spinosa is not comparable to a Kuva Tonkor. Not even with squinted eyes, not with a Riven, not against anything. Not at all.

Unfortunately, I have to tell you that you are flat out wrong on all accounts.

That is exactly how it works and how I described it. DPS in the formula = total damage which is made up of CD multi, FR/AS, MS etc. That value is then used in a calculation for a cap based on the mob in question and their respective DR table, excluding critical chance. FR and AS cannot be removed like crit, since they are not chance based stats that occur after, they are always present like other damage stats and part of your natural dps.

And Arum Spinosa can surely compete with Kuva Tonkor since it has just enough crit and good damage to utilize blood rush and its slash well, even versus the capped mobs. Pretty much any melee can perform well thanks to the mods the category has access to.

[Traumtulpe]

6 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

[…]

I suggest reading my previous post again, since you clearly didn't understand any of it.

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I suggest reading my previous post again, since you clearly didn't understand any of it.

You should probably go read the actual formulas regarding how they work.

[Her_Lovely_Tentacles]

One crazy thing I noticed with the implementation of the DPS cap is that in the case of the Treasurer, it seems like it is dependant on the Treasurers internal clock, which gets slowed with slowing effects like cold procs or abilites.

This has an incredible stupid effect:

A slowed Treasurer takes even less damage than normally.

[Tiltskillet]

5 minutes ago, Her_Lovely_Tentacles said:

One crazy thing I noticed with the implementation of the DPS cap is that in the case of the Treasurer, it seems like it is dependant on the Treasurers internal clock, which gets slowed with slowing effects like cold procs or abilites.

This has an incredible stupid effect:

A slowed Treasurer takes even less damage than normally.

I haven't tested this, but reportedly most or all units with the dps cap have the same issue.