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Put Second Dream and War Within much earlier with a quest that takes you there


(XBOX)KayAitch
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I've been trying to get my IRL friends to play Warframe.

The new tutorial is way better, but they get to Vor and then just kind of burn out.

I'm telling them to keep grinding through the star chart to get to Neptune and the Natah, Second Dream and War Within quests, but these are 20 hours in (yes, and old hand can do it in 5, but new players will take 20-30 hours).

One of the core late game mechanics is not even shown to new players until 10x more time than the vast majority will put in to evaluating a new game.

This content is years old now, and prefixing every discussion about operators with spoiler warnings feels increasingly pointless.

This is made worse by the fact that nobody new gets past the modding screen the first time without googling, ending up on the wiki, and getting spoiled.

You don't have 20ish hours of content between killing Vor and starting Natah. Go do the star chart is not enough of a hook for new players.

So, move these quests up so that new players are taken all the way to the War Within within 5-8 hours. Auto start the next quest and push players straight in.

 

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It sounds more like this game just isn't the right game for your friends. I mean the core gameplay of grinding for hours on end to progress doesn't change at any point of the game so if they don't like the grind early on I don't think they'll like it later either.

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27 minutes ago, Leyvonne said:

It sounds more like this game just isn't the right game for your friends

These are folks that played WoW, played Destiny, played plenty of other grindy endless online games (one of them even got into Anthem).

They might love Warframe if they got into all its systems, but first they need to grind the star chart with MK1 weapons as far as Neptune.

But we don't know, because that 20 hour grind isn't representative of the the game

Do you even remember what this game was like without operators? There's no early game way to get energy fast, so new players get their 4 maybe once or twice per mission. There's no void mode or dash.

There's even about 3-5 hours between Second Dream and War Within when players have a Transcendence mode that we never see again.

After about 8 hours new players should have an operator. I shouldn't be telling people "stick with it for 20 hours and it gets really good". Most people do not have 20 hours to invest to devise whether a time sink game is worth their investment.

I'm not saying this shouldn't be a grindy game, I'm saying that the story and the mechanics that might hook players in should be where new players will see them.

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

This content is years old now, and prefixing every discussion about operators with spoiler warnings feels increasingly pointless.

Doesn't make the impact it can have any less significant.

You said it yourself, it's a massive expansion on game mechanics,
but you also seem to have missed the expansion on lore / shift in perspective it gives the player,
that shift is all the stronger the later it hits you, and I for one can only applaud DE for putting it that late into the game.

Relevant:

 

22 minutes ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

they need to grind the star chart with MK1 weapons as far as Neptune

Sorry but ... that's just nonsense?

You can have plenty better equipment than MK-1 garbage as you progress through the Star Chart,
like ... I don't even get where you're coming from here.

24 minutes ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Do you even remember what this game was like without operators? There's no early game way to get energy fast, so new players get their 4 maybe once or twice per mission. There's no void mode or dash.

Yes, and thus you value those new additions way more than if you'd simply been handed them from the start.

Also, it was perfectly possible to spam abilities for years before stuff like Energizing Dash was a thing,
Operators (or Arcanes) are in no way required to allow frequent ability usage
(worst case, you can pop some Energy Restores).

29 minutes ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

I shouldn't be telling people "stick with it for 20 hours and it gets really good".

Agreed.

If people can't play 20 Operator-less hours without giving up on the game for not being fun enough,
then the game just isn't the right one for them. That's fine, it happens.

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10 minutes ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

These are folks that played WoW, played Destiny, played plenty of other grindy endless online games (one of them even got into Anthem).

They might love Warframe if they got into all its systems, but first they need to grind the star chart with MK1 weapons as far as Neptune.

But we don't know, because that 20 hour grind isn't representative of the the game

I could argue that 20 hours in WoW or Destiny also isn't representative of the entire game.. so they must have liked the core gameplay to keep playing before unlocking all the systems those games have.
 

15 minutes ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Do you even remember what this game was like without operators? There's no early game way to get energy fast, so new players get their 4 maybe once or twice per mission. There's no void mode or dash.

Actually I do because I don't use operator unless the game forces me to. So when I'm working on a build I am limited by the exact same things as a new player is when it comes to energy management and no, I don't have all fancy end game mods to deal with it either.

 

26 minutes ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

After about 8 hours new players should have an operator. I shouldn't be telling people "stick with it for 20 hours and it gets really good". Most people do not have 20 hours to invest to devise whether a time sink game is worth their investment.

I'm sorry, but if they don't have 20 hours to invest to figuring out if a time sink game is worth their investment then they shouldn't be looking at playing a time sink game.

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36 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

...that shift is all the stronger the later it hits you...

If this was some great twist in a continuous plot I'd agree, but Warframe doesn't have 20 hours of quest between the start and Natah. Practically you have the archwing and kubrow quests, and new players could start the open worlds (but they're mostly locked behind operators) if the game gave them any reason why they should be in these areas.

41 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

I for one can only applaud DE for putting it that late into the game

This isn't a design decision so much as where the bulk of their deicated players were when they added the content.

Crucially, while it was a twist when we were introduced to it, it definitely isn't a twist now. New players will find out about operators the first time they have to Google something, and Warframe is definitely a game new players have to Google. If they somehow miss it online they'll see operators in game pretty much as soon as they match make with anyone.

Operators are not the great plot twist now they felt like to us at the time.

Meanwhile operators are a prerequisite to lots of boss fights, most of the open world content, many of the mechanics that make many abilities work (including Arcanes and focus schools).

48 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

You can have plenty better equipment than MK-1 garbage as you progress through the Star Chart,

Yeah, it's not unusal for new players to realise they can even buy weapons from the shop - in most FTP games that market is real-cash only, and Warframe never really explains that you can get blueprints. 

It's something I've had to explain to new players, every time. Buy the pre build stuff, get to MR4, buy Hek and Atomos, etc.

56 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

worst case, you can pop some Energy Restores

New players don't have the resources to build loads of energy pizzas. They don't have the blueprints. They usually aren't even in a clan yet (where most of these blueprints are).

They also don't have Energy Siphon (which needs Nightwave now), or Zenurik, and they definitely don't have Arcane Energise.

59 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

it was perfectly possible to spam abilities for years before stuff like Energizing Dash was a thing

Was it? Really? You were about when EV Trinity was a thing? How many EV Trins do you see about now?

New players are in a completely different energy economy to you and me.

1 hour ago, NinjaZeku said:

If people can't play 20 Operator-less hours without giving up on the game for not being fun enough,
then the game just isn't the right one for them

I understand this elitist attitude, but from DE's point of view it's pretty toxic. You might only want to see the truly dedicated Stans on here, but DE want as many players as possible.

More players means more money for DE means more new features and more content.

60% of people who have ever played Warframe haven't even got the achievement for 2hrs playtime. That's appalling attrition.

I'd rather see the power base grow at the trivial cost of them not having the same grind I did years ago.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

It's going to take aaaaaages for them to get everything

Which is fine. I'm not saying they should have everything, just operators.

Getting operators opens up this game: focus, Eidolons, orb mothers, Arcanes, necramechs, Quills, Vox Solaris, other boss fights, several frames, etc are locked behind operators.

1 hour ago, Leyvonne said:

sorry, but if they don't have 20 hours to invest to figuring out if a time sink game is worth their investment then they shouldn't be looking at playing a time sink game

Ah, those true gaming elites, aka teenagers (and maybe professional Twitch streamers).

Average player is 30-something with kids and maybe gets an hour a day to play a game.

No, we don't spend 20 hours evaluating games. 

It's not that we don't play time sink games, we probably already play time sink games. We just don't have loads on at the same time. The question is not whether they'll spend 20 hours playing something, it's whether they should be playing Warframe rather than Destiny or anything else.

Warframe has a whole load of long term players (like me) selling it hard, but it's awful at selling itself.

Meanwhile we have this amazing quest line that's still probably the best narrative content in the entire game, but it's 20 hours in.

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24 minutes ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Which is fine. I'm not saying they should have everything, just operators.

Getting operators opens up this game: focus, Eidolons, orb mothers, Arcanes, necramechs, Quills, Vox Solaris, other boss fights, several frames, etc are locked behind operators.

Sure, that's true. I'd love to see more players experiencing that series of quests before it gets spoilered for them (I was pretty able to avoid looking at too much story stuff in the wiki, but I get that it's a thing that can happen even without searching)

They're going to feel pressured to grind hard and fast though, because that's a thing that will happen. If they're not careful, they can slip into the trap that inevitably leads to burnout; if possible, it'd be better if the pressure to grind was weakened

Edited by (NSW)Greybones
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1 hour ago, Leyvonne said:

I could argue that 20 hours in WoW or Destiny also isn't representative of the entire game.. so they must have liked the core gameplay to keep playing before unlocking all the systems those games have.

Destiny has no fewer than 3 separate story campaigns before you even hit the grind. Division 1 and 2 have a throughline storyline that carries you from the tutorial to max level. I've not played World of Warcraft, but old-school world MMOs typically have storyline quests right from the start. Warframe is among the few games out there that HAVE quests but gate the meaningful ones to near the end of the experience. I'm with the OP on this one. Let players experience the story earlier and offer that as a hook.

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We have a solid opening and a solid mid level content sink, instead of moving things, I fell it would be better to introduce more quests, or flesh out existing quests. Some quests are pretty boring and are just fetch quests which can definitely do with an overhaul.

But we know DE is busy with the new war right now, and i doubt creating early game content is on anybodys priority, but i agree with OP that the new player experience needs more.

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... I don't know how to react to this...

... The only thing I'm seeing is someone complaining that is having a problem... that isn't his, or there, in the first place.

 

This game if fundamentally different than any MMO games (I'm not including Destiny here) they have played before... And that's part of its charm. Books are meant to be read from page one, and not from last page... The idea of the storyline quests pretty much follows that rule.

New players have it easy enough in this game, especially with the Q&A chat tab. They can just ask someone there for something they need when the bait that fished them into this pond isn't online, and they can keep progressing that way... But their decision to stop with Warframe so easily isn't because the game sucks or quests placed the way they is... Its because they already have time invested in the other games and they're not going to invest time from those games into Warframe just to satisfy a friend...

Because they are starting with Warframe now, they have nothing. On the other games, they pretty much have everything they need to enforce their superiority... That's the real reason why, even if they come up later and say "its a lie"...

Its the Universal truth at work here, People that already have everything will find any reason to justify keeping everything, even if that means lying to anyone...

 

Well, that's what I got from the choice that his friends made... And I've certainly jumped through several games enough, and dealt with the players that were always coming and going from each game, to know the difference... This isn't neither a game problem or his, and its not even his friends problem. Its simply his friends decision.

 

Unlike popular belief, the reason why new players tend to give up is nothing more and nothing less than excess of disconnected audiovisual information online. That's what you get when streamers don't really stream anything other than potential "bUiLdS" and whining crap about something just to attempt at keeping their credibility and their viewers.

New players tend to stay longer, and eventually get into the game faster when I tell them to stop watching streamers and simply ask someone ingame for information about something they either have doubts about or outright didn't understand... Information given is more solid and more connected that way.

Edited by Uhkretor
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1 hour ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Ah, those true gaming elites, aka teenagers (and maybe professional Twitch streamers).

Average player is 30-something with kids and maybe gets an hour a day to play a game.

No, we don't spend 20 hours evaluating games. 

It's not that we don't play time sink games, we probably already play time sink games. We just don't have loads on at the same time. The question is not whether they'll spend 20 hours playing something, it's whether they should be playing Warframe rather than Destiny or anything else.

Warframe has a whole load of long term players (like me) selling it hard, but it's awful at selling itself.

Meanwhile we have this amazing quest line that's still probably the best narrative content in the entire game, but it's 20 hours in.

 

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

Destiny has no fewer than 3 separate story campaigns before you even hit the grind. Division 1 and 2 have a throughline storyline that carries you from the tutorial to max level. I've not played World of Warcraft, but old-school world MMOs typically have storyline quests right from the start. Warframe is among the few games out there that HAVE quests but gate the meaningful ones to near the end of the experience. I'm with the OP on this one. Let players experience the story earlier and offer that as a hook.

I just don't see quests / story changing anything for someone who doesn't like the core gameplay which seems to be case for OP's friends. If they already burn out after Vor, how would they not burn out after doing the quests?

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2 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

If this was some great twist in a continuous plot I'd agree, but Warframe doesn't have 20 hours of quest between the start and Natah.

Kind of my point, Natah is when the "main story" really kicks off,
it's a big change, going from a grindy loot game to something a bit more special.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

while it was a twist when we were introduced to it, it definitely isn't a twist now.

I've watched plenty new players come to that point in the game and be surprised / baffled.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

they'll see operators in game pretty much as soon as they match make with anyone

Maybe you / Xbox players don't give a :poop: about avoiding spoilers,
but lotsa
players I've encountered (plus myself) do their best to avoid (open)
Operator usage when there's a low-MR-and-thus-possibly-pre-TSD player around.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

it's [...] unusal for new players to realise they can even buy weapons from the shop

Yes, if those players just ignore the inbox message from the Lotus you get right after Vor's Prize,
giving suggestions on what to do next, including getting Blueprints from the Market for Credits.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

New players don't have

The base Energy Orb drop rate is ~sufficient to let you have a bunch of fun with abilities.

Getting more options for ability spam as you progress is not bad design in my book.

Also, in what way are new players unable to buy Energy Siphon from Nightwave?
The very first Rank gives 150 Cred, using a mere 20 of that for an Aura ... what's the problem there?

3 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Was it? Really?

Yareli I mean, ya rly.

3 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

You were about when EV Trinity was a thing?

Dunno what to tell you, I never needed a Trinity around (or Arcanes) back in the day to manage my Energy.
Efficiency Mods are nice.

3 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

New players are in a completely different energy economy to you and me.

Sure. And they should be, so they actually get a taste of the gun / Melee play rather than just nuking everything from the start.

3 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

this elitist attitude

Yeah. Only wanting players playing the game if they enjoy playing the game. How elitist and toxic of me.

I don't wanna respond to the rest of your post anymore even. Have a nice life.

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1 hour ago, Leyvonne said:

I just don't see quests / story changing anything for someone who doesn't like the core gameplay which seems to be case for OP's friends. If they already burn out after Vor, how would they not burn out after doing the quests?

If that's what you got out of the OP, then I advise you to read it again with an open mind. That their friends "don't like the core gameplay" is an assertion you made on your own without any basis in what you're actually responding to. Storylines keep players hooked long enough to actually get their bearings into a video game. Players who are hit with a tremendous amount of complexity early on and left with no guidance will often leave not because they "don't like" the gameplay but simply because they "can't engage" with the gameplay through a combination of not understanding it and not having experience with it.

I'm not speaking out of my ass here, either. I too have lost one friend over the game feeling "plotless." He kept asking about the plot, I kept telling him it really started on Neptune with the Second Dream, but he never got there. I strongly suspect he'd have enjoyed the story and possibly ended up wanting more, but the game cheesed him off long before he could get to that point. Having some kind of curated, guided campaign to introduce players to most of what the game has to offer does wonders for retention relative to throwing them into a sea of systems they don't understand and clocking out for lunch.

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2 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

... The only thing I'm seeing is someone complaining that is having a problem... that isn't his, or [theirs], in the first place

I'm not complaining about this content. I played it years ago, I just think the time has come for less dedicated players to be able to see it.

5 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

This game if fundamentally different than any MMO games (I'm not including Destiny here) they have played before... And that's part of its charm

Agreed.

5 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

Books are meant to be read from page one, and not from last page

Yes, but a book that had an exciting bit, then 200 pages of bad exposition before the next good bit would either get edited down or would lose readers.

If Warframe were, say, Lord of the Rings, it would make you read all of the Silmarillion before you could go from the intro bit in the Shire to the big Balrog fight in Moria.

If it were Harry Potter you'd have to go and read all of JK Rowling's weird transphobic thriller (it's really bad) before you could find out about the Chamber of Secrets.

Warframe doesn't need to lose anything here, it just needs rejigging so that the really strong story part is front and centre.

5 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

New players have it easy enough in this game

They don't. There's plenty of evidence to back up that Warframe loses a lot of players - only 40% of all players have the achievement for playing 2 hours, which means 60% of everyone whose every tried it quit after the tutorial and Vor.

The Q&A chat tab really doesn't help fix that.

5 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

Unlike popular belief, the reason why new players tend to give up is nothing more and nothing less than excess of disconnected audiovisual information online

Do you have any evidence for this?

I realise it's anecdotal, but from the friends I've tried to get into this not one got the wrong impressions from streamers. Almost all found the wiki the main blocks were the mod management screen, and not having a clue what to do next.

None of them got as far as "bUiLdS".

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8 hours ago, klop1904 said:

We have a solid opening and a solid mid level content sink, instead of moving things, I fell it would be better to introduce more quests

Yes, me too, but...

8 hours ago, klop1904 said:

But we know DE is busy with the new war right now

That.

We aren't going to get cinematic quests to full that gap. DE are adding new stuff at the end, which is great. I personally want new story, but when that new story comes there'll be a big glut of new players attracted by the PR but who are many many hours from it.

Moving up the Natah quest is a quick win, not loads of dev work, and puts three of the strongest quests right where more people will see it.

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1 hour ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

I just think the time has come for less dedicated players to be able to see it.

Here's the thing... It doesn't matter what you think.

Thoughts change nothing, actions do. If you're able to have higher power of action than Digital Extremes, then go ahead and change it.

Otherwise, this is what you or anyone else will presently get.

Leaving or staying is solely their choice.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Yes, but a book that had an exciting bit, then 200 pages of bad exposition before the next good bit would either get edited down or would lose readers.

If Warframe were, say, Lord of the Rings, it would make you read all of the Silmarillion before you could go from the intro bit in the Shire to the big Balrog fight in Moria.

If it were Harry Potter you'd have to go and read all of JK Rowling's weird transphobic thriller (it's really bad) before you could find out about the Chamber of Secrets.

Warframe doesn't need to lose anything here, it just needs rejigging so that the really strong story part is front and centre.

I am not going to discuss preferences with another person.

Its a waste of anyone's time.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

They don't. There's plenty of evidence to back up that Warframe loses a lot of players - only 40% of all players have the achievement for playing 2 hours, which means 60% of everyone whose every tried it quit after the tutorial and Vor.

The Q&A chat tab really doesn't help fix that.

Branding stats doesn't explain a thing, or gives any indication of any relevance of the fact.

New players have it easy. Want to stick them back to Update 7 and see how they feel then?

There's information added to the tutorial ingame now than ever before.

 

And the Q&A chat tab helps them if they use it for pinpoint information and not "I completed the tutorial. Now what?", because at that moment, someone might come out of the closet and say "Now? Siit and spin." and proceed to do whatever they were planning in the first place.

Streamers could very well help this even further by actually explaining properly what they need to do instead of complaining around like they always seem to be doing.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Do you have any evidence for this?

Its the Internet. Its literally filled with evidence. You only need to search for it, instead of asking to have it handed over on a silver platter...

1 hour ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

I realise it's anecdotal, but from the friends I've tried to get into this not one got the wrong impressions from streamers. Almost all found the wiki the main blocks were the mod management screen, and not having a clue what to do next.

None of them got as far as "bUiLdS".

Again, this is the choice your friends made.

That choice is not your argument to make, its theirs... And as far as I know, you haven't been elected by the people to be their spokesperson...

Spoiler

Personally, I wouldn't like to be used by a friend of mine to justify the existence of any kind of attempted discussion about any subject... I don't think that what you did (twice, I might add) is a good thing to do.

Why aren't your friends here to present their points of view? Why aren't they here explaining word by word, without suffering any kind of influence from anyone, why they left?

That would actually further the discussion and make it more constructive for DE to read about and "probably~" do something about it... "probably"...

Edited by Uhkretor
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5 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

going from a grindy loot game to something a bit more special

Is it so bad thinking that less-patient new players should get to see that?

5 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:
9 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

this elitist attitude

Yeah. Only wanting players playing the game if they enjoy playing the game. How elitist and toxic of me

All the new players enjoyed the core game loop. The space ninja movement and combat bit of Warframe is awesome. The rest of the game is a mess of disconnected resource grinds that are daunting to new players. 

They enjoy the gameplay, but they find the game systems intimidating. 

And they're not wrong. Everyone who plays this game knows that some grinds are just crushing, just look at these forums for many examples.

It's the "only players that grind through that deserve Second Dream" type attitude that's elitist. Or as you put it...

10 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

If people can't play 20 Operator-less hours without giving up on the game for not being fun enough,
then the game just isn't the right one for them

I'm thousands of hours deep into this game. Those 20 are not representative of the game I've been playing the rest of that time - it's more like a tutorial mode where you don't get all your weapons yet, but 20 hours long.

They're not "giving up" - they are choosing to play something else. The failure isn't theirs, it's DE's.

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20 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:
1 hour ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

I just think the time has come for less dedicated players to be able to see it.

Here's the thing... It doesn't matter what you think

Quite possibly, but that's literally the entire point of a feedback forum.

If I was a dev at DE I'd raise this internally, but I'm not, so I post the idea on their feedback forums where they've asked for feedback.

Why are you here?

24 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Leaving or staying is solely their choice.

Nobody is disputing that. What is this straw man? People can play any game they want, whatever they enjoy, nobody should be forced to play anything. 

When a new player downloads Warframe there's an opportunity - maybe they'll like it and play on, maybe they won't, that's fine.

I'm saying if DE put more of their best stuff at the front of the shop more people would stay.

That's it. No judgement of the people who stay or the people who don't.

29 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:
1 hour ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Do you have any evidence for this?

Its the Internet. Its literally filled with evidence. You only need to search for it

No, that's not how it works. That's never how it works. You made an assertion, you provide the evidence. I'm not going to go and do your research for you.

Yes, there are loads of streamers moaning about builds. Yes there is a lot of video out Warframe and very little of it is relevant to new players, but you asserted:

7 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

the reason why new players tend to give up is nothing more and nothing less than excess of disconnected audiovisual information online.

We agree there are a lot of videos about builds. There are also a lot of tutorials, new game guides, playthroughs, etc.

The bit I dispute is that build videos are specifically "the reason why new players tend to give up". None of the new players I've spoken to were put off by videos about builds.

By evidence I mean a new player giving up because of this stuff. 

Meanwhile I can find a load of videos where new players stream their experience and get lost after the tutorial.

40 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

That choice is not your argument to make, its theirs... And as far as I know, you haven't been elected by the people to be their spokesperson...

So hang on, new player tries a game, gets lost and intimidated by the systems in that game, and you want then to sign up for that game's forums (which would already said you think are pointless) to give feedback to the devs?

They aren't going to do that.

Of course I'm not their spokesperson, I never claimed to be. I'm not remotely representative of that demographic.

But I'd quite like to be able to play Warframe with them, and I'm sick of saying "stick with it for 20 hours" because that's a really crap sales pitch.

 

 

 

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On 2021-08-05 at 2:07 PM, Steel_Rook said:

Destiny has no fewer than 3 separate story campaigns before you even hit the grind

I forgot this, but it's something Destiny does way better than Warframe.

Like Warframe, originally these quests were drip-fed out. In Destiny they were even originally paid expansions (one of many reasons Destiny is so much better post-Activision, Activision sucks).

Now Destiny has "New Light", where you can start a brand new game and power through all of the Destiny 1 and 2 quests to catch up. It's really good... despite Warframe's game loop being far better, despite Warframe having far better weapons and modding, despite Destiny having some really nasty microtransactions, it works.

Destiny has 8-10 hours of solid cinematic questline to hook new players AND get them up close enough to veteran players to play the same content. 

Warframe has a brick wall - those of us who get past it get hooked, sure, but way more players than should give up.

Warframe needs this kind of catch-up. In a single weekend a new player should be able to go from tutorial to knowing all the basics, understanding mods, have an archwing and have an operator. We could re-organise the quests Warframe already has to give them a narrative that takes them through all of this.

 

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The biggest problem I see, is that early on in Warframe's history, they were releasing Live Events to introduce new mechanics and bosses and enemies... however, once those events were over, the quests were never hard-coded into the actual game's story. Anyone starting after those events (and now even after Scarlet Spear - they haven't learned anything), won't know what happened. They're confronted with boss dialog as they're running through assassination missions on these planets without any context, and they're being accused of doing things in the live event that they never took part in.

What I like about the placement of the Natah quest, is that it lets players get into a certain mindset about themselves and the world before having it all turned on its head. Suddenly, with that quest, you're questioning the person you're taking orders from, and then the first cinematic quest makes you question who you are.

We just need the connecting dots put in there, instead of just telling people to clear planets and junctions to progress without any real reason.

 

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On 2021-08-07 at 1:35 AM, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

The biggest problem I see, is that early on in Warframe's history, they were releasing Live Events to introduce new mechanics and bosses and enemies... however, once those events were over, the quests were never hard-coded into the actual game's story

Yeah. This. It makes for a lot of very confusing boss fights as they talk about events you won't have been part of if you joined after about 2015.

I'm glad they switched to open worlds and more permanent quests, but they should have patched something in to fill these gaps.

On 2021-08-07 at 1:35 AM, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

What I like about the placement of the Natah quest, is that it lets players get into a certain mindset about themselves and the world before having it all turned on its head. Suddenly, with that quest, you're questioning the person you're taking orders from, and then the first cinematic quest makes you question who you are.

I agree, but that's as someone who played it then

It doesn't work now. New MR1 players end up on the PoE at night being killed by Vomvalysts they can't hurt, they ask why and the answer is spoilers. They leave that and get on to Mars and what's this on Phobos? More spoilers. What about these timed secret doors on Jupiter? More spoilers.

DE have build everything since 2015 on top of Operators as a mechanic players need to get all the new content.

By the time new players get to Natah they've stumbled into 4 or 5 dead end mechanics, and nothing tells them which they should Google to figure out how it works, and which they shouldn't in case it spoils the quest.

They've either Googled it (and been spoiled) or put up with 20 hours not really understanding most of the game mechanics, or had a very patient guide for the whole process (and also be weirdly happy still having the training wheels on 20 hours in).

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