Mr.NoodleHair Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 There's a lot of clamour about players wanting difficulty in the game, and whichever side you fall into on that argument, I honestly think some difficulty is healthy for a game. Especially a game like Warframe, where we have amassed a ton of power. And I think Sorties are the answer. Why Sorties, though? Because they have good rewards and you can only do them once a day. Grind is a challenge in it's own way, and Warframe is mostly a grindy game. Many missions and game-modes wouldn't do well with an extreme difficulty spike outside of Steel Path, because we usually want to find ways to mitigate that grind or make it faster. Whether that be speed-running, using nuke frames or weapons, or any other strategies that a player can come up with. However, you can't grind Sorties. You can only do them once then you get the reward, and you have to wait until the next day to try them again. This, I think, is perfect for extremely challenging content. Enemies could be steel path level, or harder, along with all the other mission parameters that come with the game mode, and because you can't do Sorties more than once a day, it won't feel unnecessarily punishing, or grueling. The other reason Sorties are the perfect candidate for end-game difficulty is because the game mode is designed to be end-game content. You get Rivens from them and are able to make end-game builds. And as end-game content, it should challenge our gear, our builds, and our skill. Here's my idea: 3 tiers to Sorties. All the mission parameters and modifiers that come with Sorties apply: Tier 1 - Steel Path level enemies Tier 2 - Steel Path level enemies, but they start at level 500, with a slightly higher chance of rolling a drop from the Uncommon and Rare drop tables. Tier 3 - Steel Path level enemies, but they start at level 1000, with a greater chance of rolling a drop from the Uncommon and Rare drop tables. You could choose whichever Tier you want to go for, but once you complete the Sortie on whichever tier, you can't do the Sortie again nor any of the other tiers until the next day. I honestly believe this is the way to introduce difficult content to the game. It doesn't interfere with normal day-to-day gameplay, those with a craving for challenge can get their fix, and it's not so difficult that players who just unlocked Sorties or just finished the normal Star Chart feel it's impossible to even try. And for the players that have no wish to engage with difficult content, have the option of only doing Tier 1 Sorties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traumtulpe Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 Maybe a better idea than splitting the players in different missions and modes would be a system where the player can handicap themselves for slightly better rewards. We already have Dragon Keys, but using them provides no reward, nor is it enough of a challenge. For people knowing Hades, the game let's the player handicap themselves via the "Pact of Punishment" - in much more varied, numerous, and severe ways than Dragon Keys. This could replace the Steel Path - equipping any "Bonus Dragon Keys" would also apply all Steel Path modifiers and cause Acolytes to spawn, and disable matchmaking with players who do not yet have them available/chose not to equip any. The possibilities for handicaps are near endless, and since the players can choose themselves which apply, there is no need to hold back. -100% damage, no shields, 1HP, etc. In addition, you could have Keys that only apply as long as all players have them equipped; 200% enemy speed, special elite enemies, Nullifiers regardless of faction, even immortal enemies, anything goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 Sorties should be more Interesting ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 17 minutes ago, Mr.NoodleHair said: You can only do them once then you get the reward, and you have to wait until the next day to try them again. Actually once you complete The 3rd one you can redo all the Sorties.... You just won't get the Additional Credits and another Roll for The Reward... 21 minutes ago, Mr.NoodleHair said: This, I think, is perfect for extremely challenging content. Enemies could be steel path level, or harder, along with all the other mission parameters that come with the game mode, and because you can't do Sorties more than once a day, it won't feel unnecessarily punishing, or grueling. You basically just Described Steel Path Incursions 😐.... And those already exist... 23 minutes ago, Mr.NoodleHair said: Here's my idea: 3 tiers to Sorties. All the mission parameters and modifiers that come with Sorties apply: Tier 1 - Steel Path level enemies Tier 2 - Steel Path level enemies, but they start at level 500, with a slightly higher chance of rolling a drop from the Uncommon and Rare drop tables. Tier 3 - Steel Path level enemies, but they start at level 1000, with a greater chance of rolling a drop from the Uncommon and Rare drop tables. Yeah I'm telling you right now this is never going to Happen... I mean it's fine to have Big Dreams but this is just unrealistic.... You sound like one of those People Asking for Excalibur Prime. 😱 25 minutes ago, Mr.NoodleHair said: I honestly believe this is the way to introduce difficult content to the game. It doesn't interfere with normal day-to-day gameplay, those with a craving for challenge can get their fix, and it's not so difficult that players who just unlocked Sorties or just finished the normal Star Chart feel it's impossible to even try. And for the players that have no wish to engage with difficult content, have the option of only doing Tier 1 Sorties. That's all well and Good, Tenno... But is it fun ? Do you want Sorties to wind up like Eidolon Hunts where the list of possible Options gets narrowed down into a Rigid Meta and a Toxic Co-Op Experience because someone dared to bring something other than Ash and Banshee 😱 ? I don't think you put a whole lot of thought into this.... Also this isn't even Feedback.... 4 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said: Maybe a better idea than splitting the players in different missions and modes would be a system where the player can handicap themselves for slightly better rewards. They can do this already by just wearing All The Dragon Keys.... The Challenge will be its own Reward 😉.... I mean... Unless you want people to Complain and get Dragon Keys Nerfed into The Dirt.... because you are gate keeping all the Goodies.... 7 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said: We already have Dragon Keys, but using them provides no reward, nor is it enough of a challenge. For people knowing Hades, the game let's the player handicap themselves via the "Pact of Punishment" - in much more varied, numerous, and severe ways than Dragon Keys. To my Knowledge All Of Super Giants Games have done something like this.... Even as early as Bastion. 1) Bastion has The Shrine... 2) Transistor has itwz own thing that I can't Remember... 3) Pyre I never completed 😁 4) And Hades has the Afformentioned Pact Of Punishment... What I like about how these Games do it is you aren't rail roaded into the All Or nothing Approach like most other games handle Difficulty.... You get to Choose exactly which Modifiers you want to suffer through.... Which is a kinda a big deal since everything else in Hades is Randomised 😱.... Further more the the Pact of Punishment might go all the way up to 70 Heat But the Gameplay Rewards are Hard Capped at 20 Heat per Weapon and the Quest Reward is only Capped at a single 32 Heat Run.... I can't stress how important it is to not use gameplay Rewards to incentivize playing on the Absolute Hardest Difficulty.... There's a Certain threshold where the "Challenge" is it's own Reward and the Bragging Rights are worth more than the Titan Blood.... Ergo locking Those Goodies away behind the Highest Heat levels is completely Pointless... Someone who just wants the goodies is only going to get Frustrated by that level of Challenge because the Incentive System would be completely Lob Sided 😱. 21 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said: This could replace the Steel Path - equipping any "Bonus Dragon Keys" would also apply all Steel Path modifiers and cause Acolytes to spawn, and disable matchmaking with players who do not yet have them available/chose not to equip any. I thought you didn't want to Split The Player Base ? 🤔 22 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said: 200% enemy speed I Reckon most players would just Enable this by Default for Defense and Survival Missions anyway just to Speed those Missions up or increase the Life Support Drops... 25 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said: In addition, you could have Keys that only apply as long as all players have them equipped; Does that mean players who want that sort of Challenge have no choice but to Use Recruit Chat and Discord ? Nothing for Pick Up Groups ? 😱 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traumtulpe Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 2 minutes ago, Lutesque said: I thought you didn't want to Split The Player Base ? 🤔 [...] Does that mean players who want that sort of Challenge have no choice but to Use Recruit Chat and Discord ? Nothing for Pick Up Groups ? 😱 It would not split the players any further, since Steel Path is already a thing. No, you can use matchmaking as usual on the Steel Path (you just won't find anybody in all likelyhood, since most Steel Path missions are pointless to do more than once), and the same would be true while equipping "Bonus Dragon Keys". Another interesting idea for effects that influence everone (as 200% enemy speed) would be to give players a vote on which out of a selection to choose once per reward-interval in endless missions. If you don't want any of them, you can choose to extract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 4 minutes ago, Lutesque said: Actually once you complete The 3rd one you can redo all the Sorties.... You just won't get the Additional Credits and another Roll for The Reward... clearly thats what he meant 4 minutes ago, Lutesque said: You basically just Described Steel Path Incursions 😐.... And those already exist... different reward pool. so no he didn't 4 minutes ago, Lutesque said: Yeah I'm telling you right now this is never going to Happen... I mean it's fine to have Big Dreams but this is just unrealistic.... You sound like one of those People Asking for Excalibur Prime his tiers are a bit out there, but hey they did SP, now maybe they could do something with the sorties to make them interesting. no harm in asking. And introducing something that doesn't exist and isn't exclusive is no where near like asking for excal prime. 5 minutes ago, Lutesque said: That's all well and Good, Tenno... But is it fun ? Do you want Sorties to wind up like Eidolon Hunts where the list of possible Options gets narrowed down into a Rigid Meta and a Toxic Co-Op Experience because someone dared to bring something other than Ash and Banshee 😱 ? I don't think you put a whole lot of thought into this.... sorties have modifiers so there is unlikely to be one meta. And maybe he wants to solo them any way? Probably more thought put in than in these snarky responses. 7 minutes ago, Lutesque said: They can do this already by just wearing All The Dragon Keys.... The Challenge will be its own Reward 😉.... I mean... Unless you want people to Complain and get Dragon Keys Nerfed into The Dirt.... because you are gate keeping all the Goodies... wearing all dragon keys won't give you better rewards as the poster suggested. 8 minutes ago, Lutesque said: I can't stress how important it is to not use gameplay Rewards to incentivize playing on the Absolute Hardest Difficulty.... There's a Certain threshold where the "Challenge" is it's own Reward and the Bragging Rights are worth more than the Titan Blood.... Ergo locking Those Goodies away behind the Highest Heat levels is completely Pointless... Someone who just wants the goodies is only going to get Frustrated by that level of Challenge because the Incentive System would be completely Lob Sided why is it so important to not use gameplay? Plenty of games do this - in fact Warframe already does to a large extent. there is just missing challenge for anyone who has played more than a hundred hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traumtulpe Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 11 minutes ago, Lutesque said: I can't stress how important it is to not use gameplay Rewards to incentivize playing on the Absolute Hardest Difficulty.... There's a Certain threshold where the "Challenge" is it's own Reward and the Bragging Rights are worth more than the Titan Blood Did you ever play something like Diablo2? You could use +Magic Find to get more rewards (unique items) - but this would make you weaker since you would not be using other, more powerful, equippment. The point is players will find a balance between increased reward, and time needed to get the rewards (in other words ease of completion) on their own. And if each Key has a static reward increase (say 5-20% more XP and rewards, depending on the modifiers difficulty), there is a build in diminishing return. No point in making the mission 2x as difficult for +10% more stuff, especially if you are already at +300% stuff. Of course adding challenge is the main point, but if you make the mission take 20 minutes instead of 1, you have to increase the rewards as well. This much should be obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 3 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: clearly thats what he meant It wasn't Clear to me.... Sorry.... 4 hours ago, Traumtulpe said: It would not split the players any further, since Steel Path is already a thing. No, you can use matchmaking as usual on the Steel Path (you just won't find anybody in all likelyhood, since most Steel Path missions are pointless to do more than once), and the same would be true while equipping "Bonus Dragon Keys". Another interesting idea for effects that influence everone (as 200% enemy speed) would be to give players a vote on which out of a selection to choose once per reward-interval in endless missions. If you don't want any of them, you can choose to extract. I think all the effort to appease the Hard Core players would be better spent on Reworking the Match Making System.... Supposedly a Survey showed that 55% of players are cool with Difficult Content.... I wonder why they didn't do a Survey for match Making.... Or just having the Option not to be the host.... ? How many players would be on board with That.... ? 3 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: different reward pool. so no he didn't As it has been mentioned by Me and a few Others (apparently not many players have Caught on just yet)... As soon as Rewards get brought up in discussions surrounding Difficulty then the whole thing just falls apart... You guys really need to learn to let this specific thing go.... It's just never going to happen. Personally I wouldn't mind if players wanted purely Cosmetic Rewards for doing Difficult Content.... Hell you can even have Prime Access Exclusive Stuff for your Efforts.... It would make me Salty as hell but that's okay... That would be the whole point.... Unfortunately I can't speak for everyone else.... Some players just want what everyone else has regardless of what it is.... 3 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: his tiers are a bit out there, but hey they did SP, now maybe they could do something with the sorties to make them interesting. no harm in asking. And introducing something that doesn't exist and isn't exclusive is no where near like asking for excal prime. It's close enough I think... But there's actually a much bigger problem with The Reward List.... Why would anyone suffer all that effort just for a Riven Mod or 3 Day Boosters ? 👀.... I mean....it's 40 Platinum.... I can buy one just by doing Fissures and Orokin Vault Runs (I need the Traces to Craft The keys).... The Riven Mods are even worse as thats 4 Layers Of RNG and probably the Worst Grind in The Game.... How Many Rivens and Rolls does it take to go from being a Reward to being a Chore ? Now... Obviously this can be fixed by Offering Better Rewards.... And we all already know how that's going to end.... This idea wasn't thought Through.... 3 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: sorties have modifiers so there is unlikely to be one meta. Then people settle on the one "Best Build" for all Modifiers.... I think we've done that already.... 3 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: And maybe he wants to solo them any way? And if OP was literally the only Warframe player in the World then it wouldn't be an Issue .... 3 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: Probably more thought put in than in these snarky responses. I'm Doing my Best Here.... God Help Me I'm Trying 😭 !!! 3 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: wearing all dragon keys won't give you better rewards as the poster suggested. Ah yes... The Rewards.... I want to know exactly what these rewards are.... Because if it's anything other than Cosmetic in Nature.... Its going to cause Jealousy.... I don't have to tell you how loud Jealous Players can be... 😱 3 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: why is it so important to not use gameplay? Plenty of games do this - in fact Warframe already does to a large extent. there is just missing challenge for anyone who has played more than a hundred hours. Tenno.... If you reward players who want a Challenge with Crap that's just going to make those Same Challenges easier.... You are Literally negating the the whole point of the Challenge in the first place..... I called this when I found out that DE caved and Added Goodies like Umbra Forma and Kuva for Doing Steel Path Missions.... And sure enough the Try Hards using the Very Same Toys they got as Rewards for The Steel Path are claiming it's too easy.... If you want a truly Challenging Game mode... You're going to have to give up your Gameplay Related Rewards... Or don't.... If you want to go through this Vicious Circle All Over Again even after Sorties, Arbitrations & Steel Path showing that it's pointless then by all means... Go ahead... I already got the link for my "I Told You So" Meme ready to go ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I bet it won't even take long for the inevitable "Revised Sorties To Easy" Threads to start Cropping up.... 3 hours ago, Traumtulpe said: Did you ever play something like Diablo2? Nope... 3 hours ago, Traumtulpe said: You could use +Magic Find to get more rewards (unique items) - but this would make you weaker since you would not be using other, more powerful, equippment Oh... So this would be like using the Swallow Tail Set in Nioh to increase the Ethereal Drop Chance (People always did liken Nioh to Diablo) ? 3 hours ago, Traumtulpe said: The point is players will find a balance between increased reward, and time needed to get the rewards (in other words ease of completion) on their own. And if each Key has a static reward increase (say 5-20% more XP and rewards, depending on the modifiers difficulty), there is a build in diminishing return. No point in making the mission 2x as difficult for +10% more stuff, especially if you are already at +300% stuff. Maybe I would understand this if I got a Different Example 🤔... 3 hours ago, Traumtulpe said: Of course adding challenge is the main point, but if you make the mission take 20 minutes instead of 1, you have to increase the rewards as well. This much should be obvious. The Challenge is it's own Reward.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I personally would also be okay if those players got Cosmetics too... But ultimately if you want a Challenge and they Give you one and then you start grumbling about getting nothing in Return... That just shows you obviously don't want a Challenge.... What you're actually asking for is an Exclusive Playground that Rewards you and no one else... Or at the very least that's exactly what other players are going to start thinking when you make such a suggestion.... Especially in a Gear Based Game.... Infact if you really want a Challenge like you claim you do.... You can just impose Challenges on yourself... Case in Point....I theorized it was possible to Beat DMC5's Mission 19 without using SDT.... What do you get for beating Mission 19 without using SDT... Didly Squat.... I just wanted to know if I could... And so after like 20 Attempts I actually Did it..... Then I wondered if I could do it without using DT at all.... And After alot more Attempts... I did it.... And what did I get ? Didly Squat.... Then I wondered if I could do it With my BEAR HANDS..... 👀.... And to do this it turns I first Had to beat the Game on the Son Of Sparda Difficulty so I could unlock a feature called "Something Something Full Custom" (this was two years ago... Forgot it's name)... This allows you to Equipe All 7 of Dante's Melee Weapons and All 6 of his Guns simultaneously.... Or.... Absolutely None Of Them At All.... I went with the Latter.... And After So Many Attempts... I think it was like 50.... I beat The Mother$@#@## with my Bear Hands 👀.... Again.... What did I get ? Nothing !!! To me... That's the only way you can prove you genuinely just want a Challenge.... As soon as you bring up Rewards then I'm Sorry... I just Don't Believe You Want Challenge Anymore. 🤔 And that's Coming from me... The Tenno who never complains about anything Being Too Easy and Never Asks For anything to be made more Difficult.... Maybe it's Because I'm getting my desire for Challenge Satisfied Else Where ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.... Here's a Video of Someone Doing Mission 19 with their Bear Hands.... Obviously SPOILERS for DMC 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 1 hour ago, Lutesque said: blah blah blah To summarize your OPINIONS: A) Content shouldn't be locked behind difficulty B) Increased rewards shouldn't be locked behind difficulty C) Warframe is difficult enough and doesn't need any additional challenges D ) Players asking for increased challenge AND some rewards commensurate with their investment of time and effort - are - what, lying? E) The devs will never do any of the above. Did I miss anything? Let me state my OPINIONS: A) Its fine if content is locked behind difficulty. Infact I will go further and say it SHOULD be locked behind difficulty to incentivize players to improve, get more powerful, try new things, level up etc. NOTE: this is not the same as EXCLUSIVITY - things unubtainable to the players at large not matter how hard they try or what they do (like a one-time event for example) B) Increased rewards should be come with additional challenge or difficulty. if the challenge has involved me investing additional time to either complete the mission, OR involved me investing time to farm the gear necessary to do the challenge, I absolutely want increased rewards, or rewards unique to that challenge. C) Warframe desperately needs additional challenge to go along with the incredible power-creep we have seen over the past few years. New War specific content would be a good place for this. ANyone playing to that point should already have a RJ & Operator and if they have that, they should have been playing for a least a little while. Now if they just brainlessly stood in Hydron levelling stuff up so they could have a bigger number next to their name - that's on them if they can't handle harder content. D) I don't even know what to make of this. I want challenge, and I want that challenge to have additional rewards. Why you ask? Because I would like a reason to keep the game mode alive, or keep me coming back. Your DMC example - after you beat it with your BEAR(sic) hands, did you do it again? and again? probably not. Not to mention, if they DON'T increase the rewards (or make them unique in some way) the missions will be a ghost town and that is not what people are asking for. Personally I would like to play SP missions OTHER than MOT, ANI, and Kuva Survival - but if I want a squad, those are my only options as every other node is dead. E) Every video game I know has an element to increased or unique rewards for increased challenge. think back to the earliest - PONG - high score. Think about warframe - the entire game is built around the concept - how can you miss it? can you get axi relics on Earth? What do you have to do to farm for Trinity? farm Arcanes? In fact I'd challenge you to find a single activity in warframe that doesn't lock something behind what is supposed to be increased challenge. To say the devs would never consider things like this is asinine at best. If you will be content to mindlessly play warframe for the next 5 years with ever increasing power strength whilst no new challenges are added, that's fine. But some of us would like the game to scale the way our power has. I don't know if you ever played Borderlands - but imagine they keep increasing the weapon levels every season, but never increased the enemy difficulty. The suggestions of people here and in other threads asking for more difficult challenge are, in MY opinion, not only valid, but warranted. And quite frankly, I'm not sure I even understand peoples arguments AGAINST more difficult challenge. Do people really want to just run through missions as if they were all EPrime - with so much power strength and weapon strength you never even see an enemy? Because then what they are asking for is just a map with resources lying on the ground they can run through with vacuum, go to extraction and repeat 1000 times until they can craft whatever it is they wanted the resources for. Gee that sounds fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(NSW)Greybones Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 I see level 500 Steel Path enemies in skimming and I’m thinking this idea is kind of stupid. I’ll read the OP proper after a bit; not available to do so at the moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnlmza Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 Making sorties harder will seriously mess with player progression, though. Sorties are unlocked after the War Within - something most players are going to complete well before they finish the star chart and unlock other harder modes. It's probably the first place many player are going to encounter level 100 enemies. Yes, more experienced players have completely out-levelled this content, but changing sorties to be harder is going to leave a huge gap in how players progress to being able to tackle stuff like their Liches (also unlocked by the War Within) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 Il keep this Simple... 9 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: B) Increased rewards should be come with additional challenge or difficulty. 9 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: A) Its fine if content is locked behind difficulty It's never Going to happen... I'm not even saying you're wrong... I'm telling you this just isn't going to be A Thing....and if it does become a thing then the Cry Babies that Far Outnumber the Try Hards will eventually get it Nerfed.... Just like they did Before.... Multiple Times ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It genuinely doesn't matter what either of us say... That's just how the Warframe Cookie Crumbles.... And in case you are wondering... Im one Of The Cry Babies.... 👍 9 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: C) Warframe desperately needs additional challenge Nope... Warframe just needs more Goodies.... Personally I don't think this is a Sustainable Business model but this is what DE has decided to go with.... Because it's what people play and pay for.... 9 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: D) I don't even know what to make of this That's perfectly understandable.... Some people just aren't at that level yet.... 😎 9 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: I want challenge, and I want that challenge to have additional rewards. No you don't.... You just want Rewards.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ it's as simple as that.... 9 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: Your DMC example - after you beat it with your BEAR(sic) hands, did you do it again? and again? probably not. I actually did Attempt it again on The Son Of Sparda Difficulty since The Boss gets new movies there instead of just Inflated Damage and HP numbers like Warframe.... Sadly I didn't beat him that time.... Not only that.... I still Continued to play The Game.... Not Getting any Additional Rewards the entire Time I was doing so as I had already Purchased Everything.... Also my time is precious and I have other Games Competing for it.... There's nothing wrong with Focusing on that.... Well I guess there is if you are the Developer of a Free To Play Game.... 👀 9 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: Not to mention, if they DON'T increase the rewards (or make them unique in some way) the missions will be a ghost town and that is not what people are asking for. Personally I would like to play SP missions OTHER than MOT, ANI, and Kuva Survival - but if I want a squad, those are my only options as every other node is dead. If that's the case then all this effort would be better Spent on Reworking the Matchmaking System from the ground and removing any Duplicate Nodes that really have no Reason to Exist.... 9 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: E) Every video game I know has an element to increased or unique rewards for increased challenge. Ofcourse... At the end of the Day... Video Games are an industry set out to make money.... And it turns out Rewards are pretty Profitable.... That's why every game and it's Mother has Adopted RPG Elements.... That being said.... If you don't Find the Challenge to be its own Reward then you're not really looking for a Challenge... Sorry... That's my Philosophy and it's not Changing.... 9 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: think back to the earliest - PONG - high score. And would Removing The High Score just kill your Desire to play Pong ? If that's the case then you really didn't enjoy Pong to begin with... You were merely chasing after that High Score Validation.... Which is essentially a Cosmetic Item.... A very ugly one too.... Game would be more popular if you could unlock Outfits.... Maybe 2 By 4s... pencils.... Obelisks.... Some people play Pong just because it's Pong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ And Il be honest... There really isn't a whole lot of us... I would estimate 1 in 5000 Gamers Actually like a Challenge just for the Sake of a Challenge.... 9 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: Think about warframe - the entire game is built around the concept No it's not.... Warframe is not built around the Concept of increased rewards for increased Challenge.... It's built around the Concept of Increased Rewards for Increased Grind.... Or by Paying to Skip.... Warframe Absolutely does not Respect or even Acknowledge Effort.... You might Suffer through a Sortie just for 6000 Kuva while I might suffer through that exact same sortie and Get This: That's what Warframe is... It's a Slot Machine.... And I have Conspiracy Theory on why it was Specifically designed this way but Il spare you the Tinfoil Hat Talk.... For Now.... 9 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: To say the devs would never consider things like this is asinine at best. And yet that's exactly what they did.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Look... I don't like it anymore than you do but that's what Warframe is.... 10 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: If you will be content to mindlessly play warframe for the next 5 years with ever increasing power strength whilst no new challenges are added, that's fine. But some of us would like the game to scale the way our power has. I don't know if you ever played Borderlands - but imagine they keep increasing the weapon levels every season, but never increased the enemy difficulty. The suggestions of people here and in other threads asking for more difficult challenge are, in MY opinion, not only valid, but warranted. Indeed they are.... It's just never gonna happen.... There simply isn't Enough of you in the game to make it worth DE's Effort to bother.... That's why they Removed Raids.... Like I said.... I'm not saying you're wrong... I'm saying it's just not going to happen... I reckon DE can easily bring Raids back... Supposedly it was on their Roadmap back in one of their 2019 Dev Streams.... But the problem isn't how to integrated them into the game again... It's how to get people to keep playing them.... That's probably what has them Stymied right now.... 10 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: I don't know if you ever played Borderlands - I have not.... I'm really not Fond of a Game who's main Selling point is that it's a Grind.... I think that's why I was never on board with Monster Hunter Either.... I don't like Grinding.... Infact I would imagine nobody does.... 10 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: And quite frankly, I'm not sure I even understand peoples arguments AGAINST more difficult challenge. Then Ask them.... 👀 If you want my personal reason why I'm against Difficulty in Warframe then I can Answer that with a Simple Image: DE's Design Philosophy Torwards Giving you a Challenge is Taking away all your Toys.... You know what's more Boring than an Easy Game.... A Hard Game with 0 Variety.... 😱 10 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: Do people really want to just run through missions as if they were all EPrime - with so much power strength and weapon strength you never even see an enemy? Who Doesn't Want To Be a God ? 😎 10 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: Because then what they are asking for is just a map with resources lying on the ground they can run through with vacuum, go to extraction and repeat 1000 times until they can craft whatever it is they wanted the resources for. Gee that sounds fun. What do you want me to say ? Gamers are a Peculiar Bunch.... 👀 43 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said: I see level 500 Steel Path enemies in skimming and I’m thinking this idea is kind of stupid. I’ll read the OP proper after a bit; not available to do so at the moment I humbly await your Response 👀... 23 minutes ago, drnlmza said: Making sorties harder will seriously mess with player progression, though. Sorties are unlocked after the War Within - something most players are going to complete well before they finish the star chart and unlock other harder modes. It's probably the first place many player are going to encounter level 100 enemies. Yes, more experienced players have completely out-levelled this content, but changing sorties to be harder is going to leave a huge gap in how players progress to being able to tackle stuff like their Liches (also unlocked by the War Within) That's not OP's Problem.... Why should He/she Care ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ And thats basically the whole issue in a Nutshell...some people only think of themselves... 👀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Frost_Nephilim Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 7 hours ago, Lutesque said: It's never Going to happen Has already happened. Steel path offers increased loot drop rate and Fissure missions reward you more the longer you stay. Fissures are painfully slow at increasing rewards but the base 25% boost is welcome 7 hours ago, Lutesque said: No you don't.... You just want Rewards.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ it's as simple as that. I'm pretty sure this will change your philosophy Think of game you have everything in, and have done all you want to do. Why aren't you playing it as much other games you don't have everything in, and haven't done all you want to do? Because having everything has left you with nothing more to do yes? I think that destroys the philosophy for only wanting rewards. People aren't always looking to have everything in game immediately handed to them, just so they can throw the game away the next day. They want to work for it to extend the games attention it holds over them. Challenge helps with that extention while also helping one to stay awake while grinding towards their goal rather than sleeping through it, making the process more enjoyable. They want to feel adrenaline rush through them while they play, as opposed to just downing grineer lancers in different skins. Rewards and challenge compliment each other in ways 7 hours ago, Lutesque said: that's the case then all this effort would be better Spent on Reworking the Matchmaking System from the ground and removing any Duplicate Nodes that really have no Reason to Exist.... This idea is actually pretty genuis ngl 🥀 I mean I share this problem too. I be having so many new people begging me to help them cause they have no one to play with because no one is doing that 1 sabotage mission on mercury somewhere since there's no incentive to do it after that 1st run through. Even I get sad about it, running through sp all alone lol. Interesting 7 hours ago, Lutesque said: No it's not.... Warframe is not built around the Concept of increased rewards for increased Challenge.... It's built around the Concept of Increased Rewards for Increased Grind.... Or by Paying to Skip.... Warframe Absolutely does not Respect or even Acknowledge Effort.... You might Suffer through a Sortie just for 6000 Kuva while I might suffer through that exact same sortie and Get This: 7 hours ago, Lutesque said: That's what Warframe is... It's a Slot Machine.... And I have Conspiracy Theory on why it was Specifically designed this way but Il spare you the Tinfoil Hat Talk.... For Now.... 1,000% facts 7 hours ago, Lutesque said: DE's Design Philosophy Torwards Giving you a Challenge is Taking away all your Toys.... You know what's more Boring than an Easy Game.... A Hard Game with 0 Variety.... 😱 Sad truth. I used to be on board with the idea of having a way to weaken the player but I learned a few years ago that people have grown attached to the power fantasy that warframe is today, and how messed up it is to take it away. It's why nowadays I try to find ways to keep warframes current gameplay style whilst adding different elements. My favorite comparison that I use all the time is to the nox enemy unit. An enemy that doesn't kill any variety really, but does marginally increase difficulty. Albeit it could use another way to bypass its armor cause some forms of crowd control like Nidus's meatball make this thing a nuisance. Possibly should work like nullifiers where a certain amount of hits take out its armor 7 hours ago, Lutesque said: Who Doesn't Want To Be a God ? 😎 Agreed here too🥀, have you played prototype 2? You won't feel like a holy God but you will feel like one lol. Storyline is quite meh but gameplay, has to be my favorite of all time. It's the reason I love warframe so much, as the 2 are similar when it comes to making you feel like you are a beast Assassin's creed Ezio collection also gives you this unstoppable feeling. Not really God level, more of just a badas. Story is great ac 2, falls off quite a bit throughout the other 2 games but once you start loving Ezio I don't think one could even care. I like the way you think btw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Frost_Nephilim Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 18 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said: Because then what they are asking for is just a map with resources lying on the ground they can run through with vacuum, go to extraction and repeat 1000 times until they can craft whatever it is they wanted the resources for. Gee that sounds fun. It's funny you say this cause while I am a fan of challenge, I do play a game called minecraft and I amongst many others enjoy 1 particular aspect of Minecraft which is simply farming (growing crops, chopping em down, crafting things). It's something peaceful about doing it all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Frost_Nephilim Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 Oh yeah almost forgot, Op I support the idea of adding a Steelpath variant of sortie. Adding more mission conditions to it too. Sounds fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 3 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: Has already happened. Steel path offers increased loot drop rate and Fissure missions reward you more the longer you stay. Fissures are painfully slow at increasing rewards but the base 25% boost is welcome Steelpath isn't an Increased Challenge... It's just another Gear Check.... Same goes for Void Fissures... 3 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: I'm pretty sure this will change your philosophy Think of game you have everything in, and have done all you want to do. Why aren't you playing it as much other games you don't have everything in, and haven't done all you want to do? I am.... I kept playing Warframe after I got the Last Prime Item I wanted.... I'm Still Playing Hades after literally Buying Everything... I still play Fantasy Strike and Street Fighter V Sonic And All Stars Racing Ttansformed despite there not being all that much to unlock in the first place.... I'm replaying Batman Arkham City and DmC Devil May Cry because I love those games... I normally go back to them After playing something newer because they help me remember what newer games make me forget.... Occasionally I go back and play Rayman Legends... Usually after playing a newer platformer that I believe does everything wrong... Anything else I'm not playing I just wasn't that into to begin with or I can't play anymore because my Friends live in a Different City now... 😥 3 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: Because having everything has left you with nothing more to do yes? That's true for games with Campaigns that Start and End.... Doesn't really Stop me from Playing Them but ultimately the lack of infinite New Game Plus is annoying.... 3 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: I think that destroys the philosophy for only wanting rewards. People aren't always looking to have everything in game immediately handed to them, just so they can throw the game away the next day. Some games aren't even designed with things to Collect in the first place.... Why do you think people would play those Games ? 🤔 Did you even know such Games existed ? 👀 Like... Chess.... Granted I don't like or play Chess but that's one example.... 3 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: Rewards and challenge compliment each other in ways Indeed they do.... But if you literally get no enjoyment from Challenges without Rewards then you're just not a Challenge Oriented Gamer.... That's basically my Religion... 👀.... 3 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: have you played prototype 2? You won't feel like a holy God but you will feel like one lol. Storyline is quite meh but gameplay, has to be my favorite of all time. It's the reason I love warframe so much, as the 2 are similar when it comes to making you feel like you are a beast I honestly thought Prototype 2 was a Step Back from Prototype 1.... With the Exception of the Stealth Stuff... Man that was Cool.... In the First Game.... Using Military Assets was really Strong.... You could Destroy Hives and Kill Bosses much more Efficiently than Trying to Wail on them with your Mutant Powers.... 3 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said: Assassin's creed Ezio collection also gives you this unstoppable feeling. Not really God level, more of just a badas. Story is great ac 2, falls off quite a bit throughout the other 2 games but once you start loving Ezio I don't think one could even care. Ive played The Series up until Syndicate and the part of the Series I loved the Most was the Free Running Tutorial in Assassin's Creed Brotherhood.... 👀.... I'm not sure what that Says about me but I wish all the other Games were more like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Frost_Nephilim Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Lutesque said: Steelpath isn't an Increased Challenge... It's just another Gear Check.... Same goes for Void Fissures... Fair enough 1 hour ago, Lutesque said: Some games aren't even designed with things to Collect in the first place.... Why do you think people would play those Games ? 🤔 Did you even know such Games existed ? 👀 Like... Chess.... Granted I don't like or play Chess but that's one example.... Love chess almost burningly ❤ they exist out of competition. People get excited for outsmarting their opponent, but asking for reward for games like this doesn't mean one only cares for the reward, it just makes the game more fun to play. Like I play chess lightly and a little carefree but if someone says the winner gets 100 dollars, both of us will be playing harder. I'll be taking every advantage I can and taking less risk as will my opponents which makes it more exciting when you get the win. For a pve game, as said before the reward acts as motivation, giving you more stuff to do after the challenge. In campaign games, that reward would be more lore, cutscenes, story, or whatever other form of progression. 1 hour ago, Lutesque said: But if you literally get no enjoyment from Challenges without Rewards then you're just not a Challenge Oriented Gamer.... That's basically my Religion... 👀.... Or one would be challenge and reward oriented like myself. I play games for just challenge (chess), rewards (warframe), and both (Devil May Cry), amoung others. The best games have been the ones offering both for me and I think the same goes for other guy you were speaking to too 1 hour ago, Lutesque said: honestly thought Prototype 2 was a Step Back from Prototype 1.... With the Exception of the Stealth Stuff... Man that was Cool.... In the First Game.... Using Military Assets was really Strong.... You could Destroy Hives and Kill Bosses much more Efficiently than Trying to Wail on them with your Mutant Powers I see this a lot and I felt the opposite, then again I have a bias when it comes to playing as monsters. Always loved the feeling of being the monster chasing bad humans, than being human chasing, or worse running away from, bad monsters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astorias1998 Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 En 4/1/2022 a las 10:15, Mr.NoodleHair dijo: There's a lot of clamour about players wanting difficulty in the game, and whichever side you fall into on that argument, I honestly think some difficulty is healthy for a game. Especially a game like Warframe, where we have amassed a ton of power. And I think Sorties are the answer. Why Sorties, though? Because they have good rewards and you can only do them once a day. Grind is a challenge in it's own way, and Warframe is mostly a grindy game. Many missions and game-modes wouldn't do well with an extreme difficulty spike outside of Steel Path, because we usually want to find ways to mitigate that grind or make it faster. Whether that be speed-running, using nuke frames or weapons, or any other strategies that a player can come up with. However, you can't grind Sorties. You can only do them once then you get the reward, and you have to wait until the next day to try them again. This, I think, is perfect for extremely challenging content. Enemies could be steel path level, or harder, along with all the other mission parameters that come with the game mode, and because you can't do Sorties more than once a day, it won't feel unnecessarily punishing, or grueling. The other reason Sorties are the perfect candidate for end-game difficulty is because the game mode is designed to be end-game content. You get Rivens from them and are able to make end-game builds. And as end-game content, it should challenge our gear, our builds, and our skill. Here's my idea: 3 tiers to Sorties. All the mission parameters and modifiers that come with Sorties apply: Tier 1 - Steel Path level enemies Tier 2 - Steel Path level enemies, but they start at level 500, with a slightly higher chance of rolling a drop from the Uncommon and Rare drop tables. Tier 3 - Steel Path level enemies, but they start at level 1000, with a greater chance of rolling a drop from the Uncommon and Rare drop tables. You could choose whichever Tier you want to go for, but once you complete the Sortie on whichever tier, you can't do the Sortie again nor any of the other tiers until the next day. I honestly believe this is the way to introduce difficult content to the game. It doesn't interfere with normal day-to-day gameplay, those with a craving for challenge can get their fix, and it's not so difficult that players who just unlocked Sorties or just finished the normal Star Chart feel it's impossible to even try. And for the players that have no wish to engage with difficult content, have the option of only doing Tier 1 Sorties. Ah, I don't think that havin level 1000 enemies is worth it. I mean, honesly what0s the point to it? People only fight with high level for bragging rights, and it's cool. but if you want that it would better give something cool. And let's be honest playing warframe against that high level is not fun. At least not to everyone. I mean being deleted just because ypu forgot to apply your damage mitigation by 0.5 seconds is crap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grommile Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 On 2022-01-04 at 4:15 PM, Mr.NoodleHair said: Tier 1 - Steel Path level enemies The Sortie drop table is not good enough to be worth fighting SPonges for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 On 2022-01-05 at 5:07 AM, Lutesque said: No you don't.... You just want Rewards.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ it's as simple as that.... Only for simple minds like yours. The two are not mutually exclusive. And I don't even need the rewards BUT i have ulterior motives for wanting increased rewards for challenging content: incentivize players who ONLY care of rewards to play the game mode so its not dead content. 18 hours ago, Lutesque said: That's basically my Religion... 👀... all your posts seem to be black and white like a religious zealot. no wonder replying or discussing is like talking to a wall, Ignore added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X7PLVTINUM Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 (Before reading, acknowledge what I say as feedback and criticism instead of shutting down your idea and saying it'll never work, the way I convey my feedback may come off as aggressive to some people when I'm just trying to keep it as bias-free and subjective as possible) On 2022-01-04 at 11:15 AM, Mr.NoodleHair said: There's a lot of clamour about players wanting difficulty in the game, and whichever side you fall into on that argument, I honestly think some difficulty is healthy for a game. Especially a game like Warframe, where we have amassed a ton of power. And I think Sorties are the answer. You got this spot on right here, the game does need difficulty, however how we implement this difficulty makes a huge difference in if it's actually difficult or not. Testing our knowledge of the game through carefully crafted systems and mechanics is a good way to implement difficulty. Ramping the enemy level to 500 which can still be overcome by copy pasting a build off of Grind Hard Squad's youtube channel most certainly isn't a good way to go about it On 2022-01-04 at 11:15 AM, Mr.NoodleHair said: The other reason Sorties are the perfect candidate for end-game difficulty is because the game mode is designed to be end-game content. You get Rivens from them and are able to make end-game builds. And as end-game content, it should challenge our gear, our builds, and our skill. Right here has one MASSIVE crack in your argument: how are we going to get these end-game viable builds when those mods needed for it are locked behind an end-game gamemode? Rivens are exclusive to specific weapons so Riven Slivers aren't a viable way to overcome this since it can take hundreds of rivens to get it for a weapon you actually have, let alone get a viable loadout for it On 2022-01-04 at 11:15 AM, Mr.NoodleHair said: Here's my idea: 3 tiers to Sorties. All the mission parameters and modifiers that come with Sorties apply: Tier 1 - Steel Path level enemies Tier 2 - Steel Path level enemies, but they start at level 500, with a slightly higher chance of rolling a drop from the Uncommon and Rare drop tables. Tier 3 - Steel Path level enemies, but they start at level 1000, with a greater chance of rolling a drop from the Uncommon and Rare drop tables. This... Is not difficult at all. You give us high enemy levels, we give you a 9 Million Damage-Per-Shot meta build. Any high level, enemy buff, or self-regen system you give us will be brought to it's knees in a matter of minutes by the endless builds we can create to do counter it Personally, I believe that bringing back Raids is the best way to create a true end-game for Warframe. Something that truly tests our knowledge of the game through carefully crafted systems, mechanics, and missions, and something that not even the most powerful builds can overcome if you just don't know what you're doing. Certain bosses from a recent update have really highlighted how many can fall from enemies that require knowledge of the game instead of just using the highest DPS build you got Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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