Eximus immune to everything plus tanky is unreasonable

[MqToasty]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Kuhl MC said:

I mostly agree with you, I'm just wondering, how to deal with the AoE Meta, that even got reinforced with the Eximus rework. All I see nowadays is Brammas, Zarrs, and Acceltras with Nukors as backup... Making Eximii AoE resistant would be the final nail in the coffin for many players, I guess. It's sad, that DE put themselves into a corner and now they have to find a way to get out there again. Maybe boosting the damage of hard hitting single target weapons against Overguard could do the trick...

I'm not sure I see the problem?  If your AOE primary doesn't work, then either go with melee or whip out your secondary?  I went into this mission with a Vermisplicer Kitgun primary, and dealt half the of team's damage.  But then again, I was host and was holding D, so I naturally got more targets to kill.

[vitreloy]

1 hour ago, Hayrack said:

 

I'm... so... over... with this bs.

Thread upon thread people are complaining that "enemies die too easily", WHAT LINK CC HAS WITH BAZILINIONS OF DAMAGE THAT CURRENT META CAN OUTPUT???

CC abilities should come in to RESTRAIN Eximus, because they are TOO TANKY TO KILL EASILY. CC doesn't work, so, the solution is more and more damage? More powercreep?

Cue the Bramma users, that need 5 shots to kill high level eximus instead of 1 shot, telling you how eximi are now "challenging".

How about when certain number of enemy dude get cc, a tuf boss will arrive to hunt that warframe XD

Or an anti-fun squad with heavy counter of that warframe will arrive to hunt that warframe. I think this can apply to those like to use certain op weapon too.

[RootyTootyAimAnShooty]

I think that a lot of the issue is, and this is purely from what I'm reading both here and on steam, is that they can feel really random in their difficulty. I've noticed that; I did the eximus stronghold assassination yesterday (the final stage) with Mag and it was a cakewalk. I just did a mobile defense for a Kuva Lich and some of the eximus enemies seemed WAY beefier to me with exactly the same setup.

Also, some of the skills are kinda bonkers. I got hit by one of the life stealing leeches in fractionally above 0.75 seconds (46 frames at 60fps). That's kinda insane. I got it on video; There was no bubble on the ground, and 0.75 seconds later I was dead. I didn't even have a chance to jump away; When I landed it was safe, I popped into aim for a split second to take a shot and then as I popped out I didn't have time to react.

I think there are other things that probably annoy people because they don't really make sense. Like, if you're jumping and an arson eximus does it's wave, you have to roll in mid-air to avoid it. If you've already done a roll, you're buggered. Mechanics that feel like RNG rather than you died because you did something wrong is pretty annoying.

[vitreloy]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

How can an enemy be tricky against larva, ensnare or any other grouping/cc ability that locks the enemy in place until the ability expires?

His counter is useless against a 60-meter-wide map nuke or a Bramma/Zarr spam. He can only counter if he lives long enough for you to notice, which means outliving your min-maxed nuke damage.

Again: They can be hard cc'd and map nuked at their spawn points. How do you think they have a chance to get close other than flat-out immunity or a health pool large enough to survive as many nukes as needed until it closes the distance from their spawn point and you?

Yet, enemies need to live long enough as to present any form of challenge, whatever form that challenge takes regarding approach, movement, damage, defenses, and/or counters. All of that is meaningless if they can't survive long-enough as to use those tactics. This inevitable results in flat-out immunity, or absurd HP in proportion to our absurd damage.

Anti-fun squad that specially design to counter specific warframe. Isn't this how you fight war, you don't call in normal infantry man with a rifle to fight tanks, you will at least bring in anti tank infantry or something bigger.

[Jarriaga]

8 minutes ago, vitreloy said:

Anti-fun squad that specially design to counter specific warframe. Isn't this how you fight war, you don't call in normal infantry man with a rifle to fight tanks, you will at least bring in anti tank infantry or something bigger.

A dead enemy deals 0 damage. He can command a tactical planet warping black hole generator; he need to live for at least a second in order to use it. 

You can't have engaging/tactical/challenging/powerful enemies that don't invalidate your own power level just so they can get to live long-enough as for you to even notice they are in fact engaging/tactical/challenging/powerful.

Pick your poison. You can't have both because they are mutually exclusive and incompatible concepts in a horde, stats-based game.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb (PSN)Darkrya:

However I'd like to make the point that Balance needs to come from both directions, just as Weapons, Warframes, and Operator Skills need to be readjusted to perform proportionately well in higher level content. Outliers that overperform need to be toned down, such as AOE+Surefooted, or melee spam, these shutdown any other high performing playstyles, by making them look more rudimentarily more ineffective compared to the former.  Enemies, and mission structures need to be redesigned to meet a good majority of playstyles that push players to develop tactic mindsets, or to enhance their muscle memory/reflexes.

I don't know why you insist on aoe + primed sure footed. You do realize that 400 logins are required for this? is this a beginner or not? probably not?!?!?!?! and after a year the people deserve usable ways of playing, don't they? besides, they must have maxed out top mods and everything has enough forma or whatever.......
because i helped a lot of beginners and they came with ignis wrath unlock full star chart before patch. those weren't even 2-3 weeks of accounts! so much for that.....

and I want to see how you can achieve anything with a dumb low armor warframe with mele vs. ranged on sp. I can only laugh.
because even wukong with 1800 health and 800 armor goes down on normal cascade after round 32 like titanic. I often don't even know what exactly killed me.

Of course you are right on certain points. truth is truth. but this illusory imba stuff has no place in reality. aoe or this super cool mele only has a place in high end builds. and if you can use that, you have almost all or all of the content on farm status...

[vitreloy]

24 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

A dead enemy deals 0 damage. He can command a tactical planet warping black hole generator; he need to live for at least a second in order to use it.

what are you talking about? how can the squad counter you be dead, do you understand what is counter mean?

you like to use control, they can't be control a period of time until it is cooldown. you bring big aoe weapon, they equip with aoe damage reduction shield but still taking normal direct damage, which mean you had to kill them one by one. You can design the squad in a way whereby member had to be take down in specific order so that it is easier to dispatch. But they are there to stall your progression only, ultimately player must win because it is a game.

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, vitreloy said:

ultimately player must win

That's why we can't see eye to eye. As Doom (2016) director Hugo Martin said:

"A power fantasy earned will always be more satisfying than a power fantasy that had been given".

If players must ultimately win, you are being handed over the power fantasy.

 

[(PSN)Darkrya]

2 hours ago, Battle.Mage said:

I don't know why you insist on aoe + primed sure footed. You do realize that 400 logins are required for this? is this a beginner or not? probably not?!?!?!?! and after a year the people deserve usable ways of playing, don't they? besides, they must have maxed out top mods and everything has enough forma or whatever.......
because i helped a lot of beginners and they came with ignis wrath unlock full star chart before patch. those weren't even 2-3 weeks of accounts! so much for that.....

and I want to see how you can achieve anything with a dumb low armor warframe with mele vs. ranged on sp. I can only laugh.
because even wukong with 1800 health and 800 armor goes down on normal cascade after round 32 like titanic. I often don't even know what exactly killed me.

Of course you are right on certain points. truth is truth. but this illusory imba stuff has no place in reality. aoe or this super cool mele only has a place in high end builds. and if you can use that, you have almost all or all of the content on farm status...

There was very much difficult and challenging content before the AoE meta existed. The game provided and still provides very easy ways to accumulate more power, without the need for AoE spam. 

The problem with AoE+Sure-footed is that it's a lazy strategy that encourages you to ignore a good majority of the game's other mechanics and underlying difficulty curves. It's the same issue with other broken and lazy metas/combos in the past, such as The Mirage/Synoid Simulor meta, Magnus Lockdown, Naramon's Shadow Step, Maiming Strike/Spin to Win, Convert Lethality, The Catchmoon. Need I name more? It doesn't matter if you put a 10 hours or a 100 hours into a weapon/mod, that doesn't justify it being erroneously sick to the game's health.

At the same time New players will be fine, just as they have been in the past, in fact it'll be better for them, there are plenty of strong builds out there to work towards. Instead of waiting for the 400 day login reward or having to do Liches/Sisters, they can do other things they might like.

[Tiltskillet]

6 hours ago, RootyTootyAimAnShooty said:

One of the things I've noticed is that if you do manage to CC them, they still continue to do their skills.

I've done some experimenting with this, mostly with Pull.  Pull is notable in that still inflicts a stagger on enemies even through Overguard.  Spam it to stunlock and it prevents most from recasting eximus specials even with Overguard up. 

The only exceptions I've found are the two leech types.   However if OG is removed and they become susceptible to the full Pull effect, it's possible to lock them down from casting entirely.

OTOH, I don't think Pull functions as a traditional interrupt, at least not with my reflexes.  Once I register the tell, even if I stagger the eximus immediately with a Natural Talent Pull, Blitz / Arson / Bio-Electric still get cast.  (Although Blitz might get delayed a little--I'm not sure.) 

So we've got an ability that CCs through OG.  And we've got variable effects within it depending on OG status and eximus type.   It's also conceivable some of this varies with mob type, although I haven't noticed that yet.  And you might be seeing completely different behavior with other CCs.    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

[Mieo_Mio]

Perhaps having Eximus become more symbolic in terms their function of the game would help, as in their Overguard  reacts badly to Explosive Drums, Gas tanks, Fire conduits on Jupiter or an Alt Fire Mechanics. Or, perhaps something like an Arbitration Drone. I am not wild about bullet sponges either. But I recognize that using a more precise skill ((Immune to AOE)) to offset difficulty might be a good compromise.       

[George_PPS]

All Warframe abilities should still be applied to these Eximus units when the OverGuard is on but at least to certain  % and phase in 100% when OG is eliminated by attacks. 

[George_PPS]

1 hour ago, Mieo_Mio said:

Perhaps having Eximus become more symbolic in terms their function of the game would help, as in their Overguard  reacts badly to Explosive Drums, Gas tanks, Fire conduits on Jupiter or an Alt Fire Mechanics. Or, perhaps something like an Arbitration Drone. I am not wild about bullet sponges either. But I recognize that using a more precise skill ((Immune to AOE)) to offset difficulty might be a good compromise.       

Sounds like a great idea. We all know that single target and certain guns are super underpowered in all missions. Why. It let these weapons deal extra damage against Eximus OverGuard? On the other hand, I don’t use AoE guns much AND I oppose any kind of nerfs to AoE weapons either since they are good. 

[AntonyBreamPrime]

I am a VERY casual player who started back when the game first released where you ran out of ammo and having a melee weapon was a must.

I am so casual I am only MR 7. 

For me and my extreme low levelness I find that there are way too many Eximus in normal missions. 

When I run a Mobile Defense mission on Phobos and I can complete the Nightwave kill 30 Eximus quest in one mission almost twice over, yeah that is way too many.

 

Antony

[TheLexiConArtist]

On 2022-06-07 at 12:19 PM, Jarriaga said:

Yet, enemies need to live long enough as to present any form of challenge, whatever form that challenge takes regarding approach, movement, damage, defenses, and/or counters. All of that is meaningless if they can't survive long-enough as to use those tactics. This inevitable results in flat-out immunity, or absurd HP in proportion to our absurd damage.

On 2022-06-07 at 2:10 PM, Jarriaga said:

A dead enemy deals 0 damage. He can command a tactical planet warping black hole generator; he need to live for at least a second in order to use it. 

You can't have engaging/tactical/challenging/powerful enemies that don't invalidate your own power level just so they can get to live long-enough as for you to even notice they are in fact engaging/tactical/challenging/powerful.

Pick your poison. You can't have both because they are mutually exclusive and incompatible concepts in a horde, stats-based game.

Of course you can have power-enemies that don't live long enough to use their offense-abilities. That's one of the main archetypes of priority enemies.

It's the good old "A/B/C, pick any two" concept in action.

• An enemy which is significantly threatening (A) and is immune to control (C) is generally required to be a soft target (!B) because that is the method of handling them. You make sure they die ASAP before they can make use of that threat.
• Conversely, an enemy which is significantly threatening (A) and is a hard target (B) is generally required to be controllable (!C), because that is the method of handling those. You control them to allow time to burn them down before they can make good on their threat.
• The third pairing (B+C !A) is a bit less clear-cut in definition than the others. Enemies that are beefy and uncontrollable (at least by hard-control) with a non-significant threat. This can come in the form of needing aggro control, or needing sustaining or defensive methods, or as an accumulation issue (where you just need to make sure they get steadily burned soon enough that more spawns of the same don't make the minor threat into an overwhelming one.)

The problem we have with Eximi is that, for their level and relative to the other units around them, they pick all three.
They're significantly tankier with the extra base EHP stats + Overguard barrier.
They're significantly more threatening, sometimes directly (e.g. Blitzes, Venoms), sometimes indirectly (e.g. Guardians, Leeches).
And they're functionally uncontrollable until you've already hard-focused on damaging them already, so you're best served just finishing the job.

 

These aren't bosses. There's no set arena to handle them exclusively, there's not a whole lot of warning or limit on how many can or will actually drop on you at any given moment.
You can round a corner in any old mission and suddenly there's 4+ god-enemies with no clear weakness all ready to snap you or your defendable-objective in half, and your only generalised option is to overpower them with raw numbers.

 

Just because we can overpower them with raw numbers or use the restrictive subset of things that got permitted to work on them (Silence), however, doesn't mean that we can't take a step back and judge them in their effective context.
It's like the difference in effect Arbi Drones have on frames which are buff-oriented versus frames which are debuff-oriented. Being able to play Chroma doesn't make the drone healthy when you consider wanting to pick something like Banshee there, where her entire kit barring passive is completely neutralised by one floaty boi.

[schilds]

Overguard simply raises Warframe eximus up to level of *normal* enemies in *many other action games*. In many other games you can't stunlock enemies, you can't push them around, you can't turn them off, your options are the usual 3D or 2D combat tactics and strategies (flanking, dodging, using cover, sniping, positioning, using choke points, etc) while you interact with their regular AI behaviours. That's *normal* in other games. In other games, at most you might get temporary single target knockback of light units (if you go up and punch them, or get a head shot), or a temporary stun of a heavy unit only after hitting a critical weakness or whatever.

Warframe players have gotten too used to having their frame abilities and mods handle everything for them to the extent that combat strategy has become an alien concept. What Warframe players term "bullet sponge" is in fact a normal level of health for enemies in other games - we're not talking Dark Souls, just regular 1st or 3rd person action games.

[vitreloy]

1 minute ago, schilds said:

Overguard simply raises Warframe eximus up to level of *normal* enemies in *many other action games*. In many other games you can't stunlock enemies, you can't push them around, you can't turn them off, your options are the usual 3D or 2D combat tactics and strategies (flanking, dodging, using cover, sniping, positioning, using choke points, etc) while you interact with their regular AI behaviours. That's *normal* in other games. In other games, at most you might get temporary single target knockback of light units (if you go up and punch them, or get a head shot), or a temporary stun of a heavy unit only after hitting a critical weakness or whatever.

Warframe players have gotten too used to having their frame abilities and mods handle everything for them to the extent that combat strategy has become an alien concept. What Warframe players term "bullet sponge" is in fact a normal level of health for enemies in other games - we're not talking Dark Souls, just regular 1st or 3rd person action games.

Nope, other action games e.g. doom don't do or very minimum do interception type of game style where player are force to lock down on a location to guard something for sometime. I can tell you, defend, interception, disruption and mobile defend this type of game style are hated by most gamer. It against the human nature of want to be free, it remind gamer about their workplace.

[RootyTootyAimAnShooty]

58 minutes ago, schilds said:

Overguard simply raises Warframe eximus up to level of *normal* enemies in *many other action games*. In many other games you can't stunlock enemies, you can't push them around, you can't turn them off, your options are the usual 3D or 2D combat tactics and strategies (flanking, dodging, using cover, sniping, positioning, using choke points, etc) while you interact with their regular AI behaviours. That's *normal* in other games. In other games, at most you might get temporary single target knockback of light units (if you go up and punch them, or get a head shot), or a temporary stun of a heavy unit only after hitting a critical weakness or whatever.

Warframe players have gotten too used to having their frame abilities and mods handle everything for them to the extent that combat strategy has become an alien concept. What Warframe players term "bullet sponge" is in fact a normal level of health for enemies in other games - we're not talking Dark Souls, just regular 1st or 3rd person action games.

I like me an action game and I'm finding it hard to think of one where the tougher units are beefier than bosses. The other game(s) that comes to mind when I think looter-shooter is the Borderlands series. I think it's a fairly good analogy.

You have normal enemies, which are vulnerable to different elements. Then you have Badass and Super-Badass enemies that are certainly dangerous if you're at end game, starting to do Mayhem/Chaos levels and haven't got uber-duper weapons but they're still vulnerable to elements. None of those enemies are as tough as the bosses you fight. A Badass or Super-Badass might take 10-30 seconds to drop. Bosses will always take longer because they have more health and bigger immunities.

But the Eximus' that I'm seeing seem to be scaled higher than bosses in Warframe. Take Ruk yesterday for example; I had my Kuva Stubbas for accurate damage (I know, I know, there's much better secondaries but I love them). The amount of damage I did with the stubbas was not bad on Ruk, a tiny little burst would take what looked like a 10th of his health off. But same burst from the stubbas on an eximus was like tickling them.

That scaling feels completely bass-ackwards to me. With that said, a lot of our early bosses rely on very specific damage locations, so it's not a perfect comparison. But still, the eximus' have the highest health and, in most cases, more dangerous skills than the actual bosses we fight. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it just feels a bit weird and counter-intuitive.

[schilds]

1 hour ago, RootyTootyAimAnShooty said:

one where the tougher units are beefier than bosses

Sure, there are balance issues between different enemies in Warframe, especially bosses. Hower a proper comparison is between enemy and player (or their equipment and knowledge of how to use it).

Problem is there is no straightforward match in Warframe, as enemies are on a separate scale from players. What the Eximus changes have done is (perhaps) push players back somewhat, with respect to the missions they they used to be able to handle. However, there have been significant changes over Warframe's lifetime, that have done the opposite. So enemies are currently, *temporarily* bullet sponges for some players. On the other hand, there have been times when enemies became *temporarily* punching bags. Temporarily, because players typically find a new equilibrium.

Out of curiosity:

• Where do most people think this weapon config sits relative to enemy level?
• Where, or by when, in the game would you expect players to be able to assemble it?

[Venus-Venera]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb schilds:

Sure, there are balance issues between different enemies in Warframe, especially bosses. Hower a proper comparison is between enemy and player (or their equipment and knowledge of how to use it).

Problem is there is no straightforward match in Warframe, as enemies are on a separate scale from players. What the Eximus changes have done is (perhaps) push players back somewhat, with respect to the missions they they used to be able to handle. However, there have been significant changes over Warframe's lifetime, that have done the opposite. So enemies are currently, *temporarily* bullet sponges for some players. On the other hand, there have been times when enemies became *temporarily* punching bags. Temporarily, because players typically find a new equilibrium.

Out of curiosity:

• Where do most people think this weapon config sits relative to enemy level?
• Where, or by when, in the game would you expect players to be able to assemble it?

that can certainly be done with less formas. but it's about something else...
it's about damage! because eximus do way too much damage for beginners. and they can't revive themselves that often! that is the point!!!!!!!!
hek has low ammo and you need to be able to aim very well. in the end you have to go to the mele or shield or armor doesn't go down at all! and that is mostly suicide! because then blatant damage comes in and it says "mission failed".
So who does that help???????

[Venus-Venera]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb AntonyBreamPrime:

I am a VERY casual player who started back when the game first released where you ran out of ammo and having a melee weapon was a must.

I am so casual I am only MR 7. 

For me and my extreme low levelness I find that there are way too many Eximus in normal missions. 

When I run a Mobile Defense mission on Phobos and I can complete the Nightwave kill 30 Eximus quest in one mission almost twice over, yeah that is way too many.

 

Antony

that's exactly the reason. even in 2013/2014 was the same!
ammo management is not available! and mele remains the only alternative!

[schilds]

7 minutes ago, Battle.Mage said:

that can certainly be done with less formas. but it's about something else...
it's about damage! because eximus do way too much damage for beginners. and they can't revive themselves that often! that is the point!!!!!!!!
hek has low ammo and you need to be able to aim very well. in the end you have to go to the mele or shield or armor doesn't go down at all! and that is mostly suicide! because then blatant damage comes in and it says "mission failed".
So who does that help???????

I am not saying the Hek is some kind of eximus killer for new players.

I asked two questions, because I'm interested in where different people place/estimate this config, *including mods*, not just the weapon (and yes, ignore the forma :-P).

What level enemies do people think it can handle? Level 30? 50? 100? Steel Path?

When do people think a player should (reasonably) be able to assemble all those (maxed out) mods? End of the starchart? The Zariman? Before they take on sorties? Arbitrations? Steel Path?

[Jarriaga]

6 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Of course you can have power-enemies that don't live long enough to use their offense-abilities. That's one of the main archetypes of priority enemies.

It's the good old "A/B/C, pick any two" concept in action.

• An enemy which is significantly threatening (A) and is immune to control (C) is generally required to be a soft target (!B) because that is the method of handling them. You make sure they die ASAP before they can make use of that threat.
• Conversely, an enemy which is significantly threatening (A) and is a hard target (B) is generally required to be controllable (!C), because that is the method of handling those. You control them to allow time to burn them down before they can make good on their threat.
• The third pairing (B+C !A) is a bit less clear-cut in definition than the others. Enemies that are beefy and uncontrollable (at least by hard-control) with a non-significant threat. This can come in the form of needing aggro control, or needing sustaining or defensive methods, or as an accumulation issue (where you just need to make sure they get steadily burned soon enough that more spawns of the same don't make the minor threat into an overwhelming one.)

The problem we have with Eximi is that, for their level and relative to the other units around them, they pick all three.
They're significantly tankier with the extra base EHP stats + Overguard barrier.
They're significantly more threatening, sometimes directly (e.g. Blitzes, Venoms), sometimes indirectly (e.g. Guardians, Leeches).
And they're functionally uncontrollable until you've already hard-focused on damaging them already, so you're best served just finishing the job.

 

These aren't bosses. There's no set arena to handle them exclusively, there's not a whole lot of warning or limit on how many can or will actually drop on you at any given moment.
You can round a corner in any old mission and suddenly there's 4+ god-enemies with no clear weakness all ready to snap you or your defendable-objective in half, and your only generalised option is to overpower them with raw numbers.

 

Just because we can overpower them with raw numbers or use the restrictive subset of things that got permitted to work on them (Silence), however, doesn't mean that we can't take a step back and judge them in their effective context.
It's like the difference in effect Arbi Drones have on frames which are buff-oriented versus frames which are debuff-oriented. Being able to play Chroma doesn't make the drone healthy when you consider wanting to pick something like Banshee there, where her entire kit barring passive is completely neutralised by one floaty boi.

 Pablo flat-out said that during their tests, Eximi felt like they were not there at all if OG allowed for CC or nukes. 

The ABC pick 2 example only works when the general enemy EHP is generous as a baseline rather than paper-thin as in WF. Enemies in WF are either alive or dead, 0 or 1 with nothing in between because of how broken powerful most Warframes are and the weapons as a whole when the frame itself isn't. A dichotomy of A (Alive) and B (Dead) doesn't allow for A (Long TTK), B (Immunity), C (Damage) "pick 2" because even a "long" TTK in this game means 5-10 seconds. There's no "long TTK" in practice when the average enemy dies at the spawn point. They have "reduced HP" by default.

The enemy must be alive for you to even notice it because of how broken we are. Under your ABC pick 2 scenario, it's either weak or not immune to CC because it must be alive as a requirement. If makes the enemy  little more than a nuisance because it pretty much is a regular cannon fodder enemy with a different-colored health bar rather than an threat in proportion to our available tools if ABC pick 2 applies.

We need all 3.

[RootyTootyAimAnShooty]

2 hours ago, schilds said:

Sure, there are balance issues between different enemies in Warframe, especially bosses. Hower a proper comparison is between enemy and player (or their equipment and knowledge of how to use it).

Problem is there is no straightforward match in Warframe, as enemies are on a separate scale from players. What the Eximus changes have done is (perhaps) push players back somewhat, with respect to the missions they they used to be able to handle. However, there have been significant changes over Warframe's lifetime, that have done the opposite. So enemies are currently, *temporarily* bullet sponges for some players. On the other hand, there have been times when enemies became *temporarily* punching bags. Temporarily, because players typically find a new equilibrium.

Out of curiosity:

• Where do most people think this weapon config sits relative to enemy level?
• Where, or by when, in the game would you expect players to be able to assemble it?

Personally I think that the scaling is a bit wrong if we're talking compared to players. I think they get a bit too tough too quickly, and I'm not a fan of further enhancing the meta. But, I also don't seem to be having the trouble dealing with them that a lot of people are.

As I said, I'm not saying it's good or bad, it just seems weird to me. There's no special mechanics. I'd really like enemies that need a special mechanic. I remember when Sentients first got introduced, I thought having to strip their resistances was really cool. It wasn't about raw damage, it was about a mechanic. Fair enough, you could just nuke through them, but eximus' are the antithesis of that at the moment for a lot of people.

As for the weapon, you have Toxic Barrage in there, so a minimum of post MR5 to have killed Vor, if we're talking about not being carried. But I think realistically about MR 8 or 9. You have a syndicate mod in there, and you have a nightmare mod.

Enemes it can handle? No idea, I never really used the Hek. I always liked my Soma and Burston back in the day.

 

[Lutesque]

On 2022-06-07 at 4:31 PM, Jarriaga said:

That's why we can't see eye to eye. As Doom (2016) director Hugo Martin said:

"A power fantasy earned will always be more satisfying than a power fantasy that had been given".

If players must ultimately win, you are being handed over the power fantasy.

 

I mean.... For something to Feel Earned there has to be some level Of control and Agency.... 

Something that Warframe will never Have as long as you get Shot in the ass by things you can't see....

Besides.... You've Played Doom.... I'm Doom you actually do survive by moving around....

Enemies don't miss because they have Built in Randomizers in their Accuracy like Warframe.... They miss because they use Projectile Based Attacks that are Slow Enough that movement Matters....

If Hugo Martin played Warframe he would have said:

 

"A power fantasy earned will always be more satisfying than a power fantasy that had been given... Except in Warframe." 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

On 2022-06-07 at 5:49 PM, (PSN)Darkrya said:

At the same time New players will be fine, just as they have been in the past, in fact it'll be better for them, there are plenty of strong builds out there to work towards. Instead of waiting for the 400 day login reward or having to do Liches/Sisters, they can do other things they might like.

You might want to check the Usage Stats to see exactly what new players are Doing....

As soon as they hit MR 9.... It's Shenanigans....

15 hours ago, George_PPS said:

All Warframe abilities should still be applied to these Eximus units when the OverGuard is on but at least to certain  % and phase in 100% when OG is eliminated by attacks. 

Pointless Change....

No Really.... Have you ever seen anyone attempt to CC Sentients or any other Enemy that is Resistant to Abilities ?

Its pretty obvious DE is trying to send a message with these Enemies and that message is: "Just Kill Them...."

Not sure why DE suddenly decided to hate CC but meh.... Their Game Their Choice.... We don't have a say in the Matter ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

12 hours ago, AntonyBreamPrime said:

I am a VERY casual player who started back when the game first released where you ran out of ammo and having a melee weapon was a must.

I am so casual I am only MR 7. 

For me and my extreme low levelness I find that there are way too many Eximus in normal missions. 

When I run a Mobile Defense mission on Phobos and I can complete the Nightwave kill 30 Eximus quest in one mission almost twice over, yeah that is way too many.

 

Antony

Yeah once you reach Ceres Warframe pretty much becomes Melee Only until you make it to Pluto.... Which basically the Majority of the Star Chart....

9 hours ago, schilds said:

Overguard simply raises Warframe eximus up to level of *normal* enemies in *many other action games*. In many other games you can't stunlock enemies, you can't push them around, you can't turn them off, your options are the usual 3D or 2D combat tactics and strategies (flanking, dodging, using cover, sniping, positioning, using choke points, etc) while you interact with their regular AI behaviours.

Which games are you talking about ? 

Because the only game I can think of where that applies to normal Enemies is Dark Souls....

In Everything else from Batman to Bayonetta you pretty Damn Overpowered versus Regular Enemies....

It's only in From Software games where a Half Naked Zombie has enough Poise to Withstand a 2 Handed Attack from The Claymore.... 👀

9 hours ago, schilds said:

 

Warframe players have gotten too used to having their frame abilities and mods handle everything for them to the extent that combat strategy has become an alien concept. What Warframe players term "bullet sponge" is in fact a normal level of health for enemies in other games - we're not talking Dark Souls, just regular 1st or 3rd person action games.

Again ?

Which Action Games are you Talking about.... 

You can't even Mention Shooters because I know we One Shot Enemies in the Majority of Them....

In top of that.... Other Games aren't Constantly throwing enemies at you to the Same Degree as Warframe so it makes even less sense that Any Of Them should be any level of Tanky....

Near as I can tell.... Every time you say "Other Action Games"... What you are really saying is Dark Souls....

Which is the exact Opposite of a Power Fantasy....

9 hours ago, vitreloy said:

Nope, other action games e.g. doom don't do or very minimum do interception type of game style where player are force to lock down on a location to guard something for sometime. I can tell you, defend, interception, disruption and mobile defend this type of game style are hated by most gamer. It against the human nature of want to be free, it remind gamer about their workplace.

Sadly... Watch Dogs does that... 😐

The first Game didn't do it that much but the Bad Blood DLC and Watch Dogs 2 did it alot and I'm a Game with such Fluid Ground mobility (atleast as far as Vaulting Animations Go).... It was extremely Frustrating....

Luckily this the only example I can think of....  And that's how I know Warframe is wrong for making us do this....

7 hours ago, schilds said:

Out of curiosity:

• Where do most people think this weapon config sits relative to enemy level?
• Where, or by when, in the game would you expect players to be able to assemble it?

I've never seen a new player Link me a Hek with a Single Forma in it....

LoL... By the time you have that many Forma you probably already have the MR for the Ignis Wraith....  Baby's First Attempt at Being Meta....

On my New Account....the first 3 Forma was Taken by My Syndicates and the Other 3 I put into my Necramech....

I still got 3 Forma but the only way the Hek is Getting That Forma is if my Sister Of Parvis Demands it.... And even then it's easier to just Farm Loki/Banshee and Just have Them Deal with Her....

LoL... New Players Putting Forma on the Hek... 😝

7 hours ago, schilds said:

What level enemies do people think it can handle? Level 30? 50? 100? Steel Path?

For That build I don't know....

For the Actual Build new players are likely to have.... The Cut Off Point is Level 30....

You can Still kill Enemies with it at that Level but you will Definitely not be Able to Solo Hijack Missions.... It's the Ultimate New Player Progression Killer....

7 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Pablo flat-out said that during their tests, Eximi felt like they were not there at all if OG allowed for CC or nukes. 

Which exactly why they Shouldn't have Bothered....

Infact.... Nothing should be Allowed to exist in Warframe since It becomes less Fun when they Do....

5 hours ago, RootyTootyAimAnShooty said:

 

As I said, I'm not saying it's good or bad, it just seems weird to me. There's no special mechanics. I'd really like enemies that need a special mechanic. I remember when Sentients first got introduced, I thought having to strip their resistances was really cool. It wasn't about raw damage, it was about a mechanic.

No it wasn't....

The whole Void Damage Gimmick was to Reset their Resistance so that you can Deal Raw Damage Again....

I don't know.... Maybe I haven't played Warframe long Enough to think this is Good Game Design.... Seems incredibly lazy....

5 hours ago, RootyTootyAimAnShooty said:

As for the weapon, you have Toxic Barrage in there, so a minimum of post MR5 to have killed Vor, if we're talking about not being carried. But I think realistically about MR 8 or 9. You have a syndicate mod in there, and you have a nightmare mod.

Enemes it can handle? No idea, I never really used the Hek. I always liked my Soma and Burston back in the day.

Like I said.... By the Time a new player has a build like that.... They can ignore the Hek and start Diving into The Meta....

A side effect of making mandatory mods such a pain in the Ass to Farm....

Need a Remind you that you have to sacrifice a Perfectly Good Potato just to get Scattered Justice.... 😐