Idk why de does this...

[Gamma745]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Rule number 96: Aim

You just had to remind me

Spoiler

 

[RichardKam]

14小时前 , quxier 说:

Caliban

Shield restoration doesn't work half of time. I can spawn Sentient then 1 second later it stops restoring shield. Or it teleports (and stops restoring shield). Your mileage may vary.

You need line of sight with your sentient within 25 m to restore shield.

 

[Silligoose]

8 hours ago, quxier said:

Frame like Xaku could melt SP with GoL, Yareli doing fine with Greeners.

It is strong, but it doesn't quite have the "break the game and switch off mechanics" levels of power as some other abilities and synergies within kits of older frames have.

8 hours ago, quxier said:

Yareli can melt Greeners up to 20 minutes, latter she needs some help. One ability that you turn every minute and just roll.

Xaku's GoL just obliterate SP 4k enemies:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8sHV1sOjX8

You could say that Yareli is meh (Aquablades) because of needs for procs. However Xaku is beast. It just melts those Grunters.

In those styles they are pretty much "turn off the enemy en masse".

ps. Of course Xaku has other style(s) but it's nerfed.

Again, it is strong, but it isn't breaking the game quite to the same extent some abilities of older frames do. Due to mechanics found in older kits, some older frames literally do not care how much damage enemies can do. Some do not care how many enemies there are. Some do not care how much health enemies have. DE could put a number as high as they want on some of those variables and some of the older frames would look at the number and say: "This makes no difference at all". The newer frames just don't have that upper level of power.

8 hours ago, quxier said:

Individual abilities may not be the best but her whole kit is pretty well balanced.

Her overall kit is pretty good. I like the design, the synergies and the options it can offer (although I'm not a big fan of her 3's cooldown mechanic), however, her kit as a whole and Gyre as a frame is weak compared to other frames in terms of upper levels of power and performance. She lacks the durability of many other frames, because a bigger portion of her innate EHP comes from shields. She lacks the survivability of most other frames, because her only survivability tool is cc, which doesn't work all that well against enemies with active Overguard. Other frames have better survivability options, because their cc is more potent for longer periods of time and beyond that, many other frames'  kits have another survivability tool beyond just cc: Limbo can hide in the Rift, freeze those who join him and thus negate a lot of danger Gyre would still have to face. Stealth frames can go invisible and just not worry about being targeted anymore (for now at least), Frost can use Snow Globe to block incoming damage. Even Hyrdroid can at least hide in a puddle if things get rough and still kill in that state. Gyre can... run away and that's pretty much it. As a result, Gyre gets pushed into global overpowered options such immortality loops sooner than most other frames: Gyre stops being Gyre and starts becoming "generic weapon holder and shield gate bot" earlier than most others. Her design, along with the design of the newer frames, seemed to steer away from the game breaking potential older frames have. Newer frames can't turn off the game quite the same way, as older frames can. It is a good thing and I hope DE will bring the older frames' game breaking mechanics down a notch in a balanced way, instead of the current way DE has been doing it by completely invalidating those mechanics.

[Silligoose]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

That's literally how tank frames work. What's not ok I'd the fact you spam abilities and suddenly you are immune to every damage type except toxin on your DPS frame. Keep tank frames tanky but make shield gate spam something healers do, not dps frames. Tank frames have upper limits, they exist for people who don't like dying. Even in other games tank characters are op.

I agree in that tanky characters should remain tanky, but balance should be maintained as well. How much more tanky should a tank realistically be than a squishy? x4? x6? Even x8 could be managed depending on the game, but in Warframe, tanks can become far more tanky than that, to the tune of x20 - x30+. When the discrepancy in durability becomes that large, it is close to impossible for a developer to present enemies that are threats to tanks, without those enemies completely obliterating non-tanks. It is one of the reasons shield gating was needed in the first place: Squishies were getting one-shot by enemies that tanks laughed at. Even though I both use and kind of like the play involved with shield gating mechanics + Rolling Guard, I recognize it is broken OP and I'd love for it to be addressed, but the discrepancy in durability when comparing tanks vs squishies needs to be addressed first and one of the ways that can be addressed, is by rebalancing the DR certain abilities/mods grant. 90% is too high.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

16 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

The grineer and corrupted don't determine if a frame is good or not. 

I agree with that but then you realize that armored units make up more than half the game (Half of planets, zariman, void, half of rj missions, half of not more of the upcoming veilbreaker missions, half of all sorties, and arbis. Not to mention the kuva liches and sisters of parvos who are somewhat tanky regardless of armor.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

10 hours ago, RichardKam said:

You need line of sight with your sentient within 25 m to restore shield.

 

I can see where that's a problem when sentients decide to do their spinny attack instead of focusing on healing you.

 

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I agree in that tanky characters should remain tanky, but balance should be maintained as well. How much more tanky should a tank realistically be than a squishy? x4? x6? Even x8 could be managed depending on the game, but in Warframe, tanks can become far more tanky than that, to the tune of x20 - x30+. When the discrepancy in durability becomes that large, it is close to impossible for a developer to present enemies that are threats to tanks, without those enemies completely obliterating non-tanks. It is one of the reasons shield gating was needed in the first place: Squishies were getting one-shot by enemies that tanks laughed at. Even though I both use and kind of like the play involved with shield gating mechanics + Rolling Guard, I recognize it is broken OP and I'd love for it to be addressed, but the discrepancy in durability when comparing tanks vs squishies needs to be addressed first and one of the ways that can be addressed, is by rebalancing the DR certain abilities/mods grant. 90% is too high.

Tbh I don't even mind shield gating that much, but it's funny how the key exploit thing de was hinting at nerfing never got nerfed because it's an unintentional buff instead of an intended nerf like other dragon keys.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

3 hours ago, Silligoose said:

It is strong, but it doesn't quite have the "break the game and switch off mechanics" levels of power as some other abilities and synergies within kits of older frames have.

Again, it is strong, but it isn't breaking the game quite to the same extent some abilities of older frames do. Due to mechanics found in older kits, some older frames literally do not care how much damage enemies can do. Some do not care how many enemies there are. Some do not care how much health enemies have. DE could put a number as high as they want on some of those variables and some of the older frames would look at the number and say: "This makes no difference at all". The newer frames just don't have that upper level of power.

Her overall kit is pretty good. I like the design, the synergies and the options it can offer (although I'm not a big fan of her 3's cooldown mechanic), however, her kit as a whole and Gyre as a frame is weak compared to other frames in terms of upper levels of power and performance. She lacks the durability of many other frames, because a bigger portion of her innate EHP comes from shields. She lacks the survivability of most other frames, because her only survivability tool is cc, which doesn't work all that well against enemies with active Overguard. Other frames have better survivability options, because their cc is more potent for longer periods of time and beyond that, many other frames'  kits have another survivability tool beyond just cc: Limbo can hide in the Rift, freeze those who join him and thus negate a lot of danger Gyre would still have to face. Stealth frames can go invisible and just not worry about being targeted anymore (for now at least), Frost can use Snow Globe to block incoming damage. Even Hyrdroid can at least hide in a puddle if things get rough and still kill in that state. Gyre can... run away and that's pretty much it. As a result, Gyre gets pushed into global overpowered options such immortality loops sooner than most other frames: Gyre stops being Gyre and starts becoming "generic weapon holder and shield gate bot" earlier than most others. Her design, along with the design of the newer frames, seemed to steer away from the game breaking potential older frames have. Newer frames can't turn off the game quite the same way, as older frames can. It is a good thing and I hope DE will bring the older frames' game breaking mechanics down a notch in a balanced way, instead of the current way DE has been doing it by completely invalidating those mechanics.

My biggest problem with Yareli is that merulina sucks but there's no reason or reward for it to suck.

You get limited mobility, locked into secondaries, cannot use helminth, and in return you get 75% damage reduction which is less than any other damage reduction ability. I don't mind the clunkiness as much because she's supposed to be THE kdrive frame so I feel like the fact you are locked into a secondary for no reason should be addressed.

What if she got an extra secondary damage multiplier and could still use primaries, and maybe she gets the 90% damage reduction wouldn't the ability be much better?

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

A theme I'm noticing people seem conflicted over is whether the game should be harder for certain frames than others. I don't think that's a specific excuse for frames to be "bad," but rather, hard to master. Look at limbo, he has invulnerability, large AoE cc, insane damage buffing, and energy regen. All of this, however, comes from the rift making Limbo a hard frame to master but very powerful once you get the hang of him.

If they want to make less powerful frames like Yareli, instead of adding inherit problems, add a reward for those who want to master her. Her merulina seems to be her main theme, so make the ability  powerful but it will of course require you to use the kdrive functions meaning you need to learn how to use it to actually utilize Yareli instead of subsuming it.

Many older frames are balanced, not because they suck, but in how they need to work with their entire kit to succeed. 

[Silligoose]

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Tbh I don't even mind shield gating that much, but it's funny how the key exploit thing de was hinting at nerfing never got nerfed because it's an unintentional buff instead of an intended nerf like other dragon keys.

My issues with it is that it flips the script and makes lesser shields better for durability. What's nest? Making lower HP value also result in greater durability? Maybe weapons with lower DPS should start doing more damage than high DPS setups (of wait, that IS already in the game).

This in turn means that frames with higher innate shield values, that are given those values to help with durability, actually end up having a harder time reaching optimal levels of durability, since optimal levels of durability goes hand-in-hand with low shield values. It devalues pretty much all shield mods that grant higher levels of shield values as well, since they are detrimental to upper levels of performance. Aside from that, with the current mechanics, it does grant effective immortality and while it isn't quite as stupidly overpowered as Protective Dash and can lead to a higher pace in missions, it changes the focus of many abilities from doing them because they give some sort of advantage to the players due to their innate mechanics, to doing them simply because it is time to replenish shields. It feels kinda stupid to spam an ability not for the sake of the ability, but for the sake of reactivating full shield gate.

Player shouldn't really have an option to become effectively immortal in my opinion: Developers have different tools at their disposal to make enemies threatening. One of those tools is enemy damage and effective immortality simply invalidates that tool. They capped their own knees as a result.

In terms of DE, it seems they are using it as a stopgap reason for not addressing more foundational imbalances with regards to shields vs health/armour, since is seems their attitude is: "Eh players have shield gating, so we can ignore how garbage the scaling of shields are". It is a tendency they have across various mechanics and they continue to go for band-aid fixes that erode the game's depth and devalues players' progression in gear and skill.

Unfortunately, it appears DE does not regard the key exploit as an exploit:

So, it seems DE is going to continue to ignore the terrible scaling of shields and squishies at higher levels of play are not going to get the help they need in terms of their EHP being far inferior to that of tanks, because now there is an "answer" for that problem - everyone gets to play the exact same way to survive. Hooray for lack of diversity! Then we get devs saying they want different frames to feel different when playing... yeah, unless it means actually balancing the game properly, right?

[Silligoose]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

My biggest problem with Yareli is that merulina sucks but there's no reason or reward for it to suck.

You get limited mobility, locked into secondaries, cannot use helminth, and in return you get 75% damage reduction which is less than any other damage reduction ability. I don't mind the clunkiness as much because she's supposed to be THE kdrive frame so I feel like the fact you are locked into a secondary for no reason should be addressed.

What if she got an extra secondary damage multiplier and could still use primaries, and maybe she gets the 90% damage reduction wouldn't the ability be much better?

I enjoy playing with her every now and then, but it remains a disappointment to see how much potential DE let go to waste. There really isn't any good reason to lock her into secondaries while using Merulina, other than it being more work for DE I suppose. No good reason to kick her off Merulina when going Operator. Not sure why her movement is so stifled when using Merulina.

Of course simply boosting numbers would make the ability better, but within the scope of the game, I do not think it is good for balance to continue down the path of granting frames high DR to the tune of 90%. 

For the frame itself and within scope of the game's overall balance, I think the passive and innate DR granted via Merulina is pretty good, maybe still a bit high in terms of DR, but I won't get into that here. She'd be well served to have access to her primary and melee while using Merulina, or to have the option to equip 2 secondaries instead of a primary and a secondary, while giving Merulina a little more variety in terms of the types of manoeuvres one can pull off with it. Where's our aim-glide-esque movement? Where's our wall ride, or being able to jump from walls? Where's the ability to crouch and ride at slower speeds? Why the hell can't we mod Merulina? I get that players are giving up precision in movement for higher speed, DR and anti-ragdoll plus resistance to stagger and knockdown, but damn players are giving up one of the best movement systems in any game out there for those perks. The movement on Merulina should still be good and offer some decent variety.

Edit:  I want to rant a little more:
Why does Yareli get locked into a cast animation during her ult? My goodness that ability would feel so much better if she could at least get a shot off on enemies while they are grouped for that split second without having to use some sort of animation cancelling exploit. What's up with the "enemies gain 0.5s immunity to Aquablades after getting hit 3 consecutive times within 0.5s"? What the hell is that mechanic about? Isn't the point to the limited range and lack of melee on Merulina for Aquablades to serve as the melee replacement? Can we look forward to enemies being immune to melee strikes if they are hit too many times in quick succession as well in the future? How about enemies being immune to bullets if they get struck too often too? That's the level of silliness this mechanic has and it is a bit too silly, even for me.

I hate to say it, but it feels like the team that worked on Yareli didn't put as much time, thought, or effort, into her as teams used to put into other frames in the past.

[quxier]

10 hours ago, RichardKam said:

You need line of sight with your sentient within 25 m to restore shield.

Good to knows. Thank you. That will solve some of my problem with that ability.

3 hours ago, Silligoose said:

14 hours ago, quxier said:

Frame like Xaku could melt SP with GoL, Yareli doing fine with Greeners.

It is strong, but it doesn't quite have the "break the game and switch off mechanics" levels of power as some other abilities and synergies within kits of older frames have.

I'm not sure how strong "older frames" are (maybe old Quake Banshee) but it's still trivialize game (at least Xaku) on SP level.

3 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Again, it is strong, but it isn't breaking the game quite to the same extent some abilities of older frames do. Due to mechanics found in older kits, some older frames literally do not care how much damage enemies can do. Some do not care how many enemies there are. Some do not care how much health enemies have. DE could put a number as high as they want on some of those variables and some of the older frames would look at the number and say: "This makes no difference at all". The newer frames just don't have that upper level of power.

I'm not sure about that. Xaku literally melting 4k SP kuva grineers.

3 hours ago, Silligoose said:

The newer frames just don't have that upper level of power.

They might not be that powerful but they still trivialize some content almost effortlessly.

3 hours ago, Silligoose said:

(Gyre) )although I'm not a big fan of her 3's cooldown mechanic

I'm huge fan of such abilities. I can manage to have ability without turning it on every N minute. That's progress. Same as gloom: no enemy = no drain And other features.

3 hours ago, Silligoose said:

She lacks the durability of many other frames, because a bigger portion of her innate EHP comes from shields. She lacks the survivability of most other frames, because her only survivability tool is cc, which doesn't work all that well against enemies with active Overguard. Other frames have better survivability options, because their cc is more potent for longer periods of time and beyond that, many other frames'  kits have another survivability tool beyond just cc

Sure, but it's not like you need that kind of durability. I think I have took her on SP Zariman and, except few cheaters, survived just fine.

4 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Newer frames can't turn off the game quite the same way, as older frames can. It is a good thing and I hope DE will bring the older frames' game breaking mechanics down a notch in a balanced way, instead of the current way DE has been doing it by completely invalidating those mechanics.

Sure, but boring "damage everything within N meters" abilities that you turn on for a lot of time shouldn't exist (nor stupid grind in this game).

They might not be powerful but they are still braindead abilities (at least part of them).

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

My biggest problem with Yareli is that merulina sucks but there's no reason or reward for it to suck.

You get limited mobility, locked into secondaries, cannot use helminth, and in return you get 75% damage reduction which is less than any other damage reduction ability. I don't mind the clunkiness as much because she's supposed to be THE kdrive frame so I feel like the fact you are locked into a secondary for no reason should be addressed.

This^. They could do not overpowered but just different combat but they have just put you into K-drive and reduced stuffs.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

If they want to make less powerful frames like Yareli, instead of adding inherit problems, add a reward for those who want to master her. Her merulina seems to be her main theme, so make the ability  powerful but it will of course require you to use the kdrive functions meaning you need to learn how to use it to actually utilize Yareli instead of subsuming it.

They are making abilities worse (cannot move) so you should use Merulina (abilities on Merulina won't freeze you).

K-drive have probably almost 0 pros but many cons. Mastering her clunky movement won't make my game better.

10 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

while giving Merulina a little more variety in terms of the types of manoeuvres one can pull off with it. Where's our aim-glide-esque movement? Where's our wall ride, or being able to jump from walls? Where's the ability to crouch and ride at slower speeds? Why the hell can't we mod Merulina? I get that players are giving up precision in movement for higher speed, DR and anti-ragdoll plus resistance to stagger and knockdown, but damn players are giving up one of the best movement systems in any game out there for those perks. The movement on Merulina should still be good and offer some decent variety.

*CLAPS*

To be honest we could have almost precise movement but DE implemented bullet jump instead of rolls (WHY?!).

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

15 minutes ago, quxier said:

Good to knows. Thank you. That will solve some of my problem with that ability.

I'm not sure how strong "older frames" are (maybe old Quake Banshee) but it's still trivialize game (at least Xaku) on SP level.

I'm not sure about that. Xaku literally melting 4k SP kuva grineers.

They might not be that powerful but they still trivialize some content almost effortlessly.

I'm huge fan of such abilities. I can manage to have ability without turning it on every N minute. That's progress. Same as gloom: no enemy = no drain And other features.

Sure, but it's not like you need that kind of durability. I think I have took her on SP Zariman and, except few cheaters, survived just fine.

Sure, but boring "damage everything within N meters" abilities that you turn on for a lot of time shouldn't exist (nor stupid grind in this game).

They might not be powerful but they are still braindead abilities (at least part of them).

This^. They could do not overpowered but just different combat but they have just put you into K-drive and reduced stuffs.

They are making abilities worse (cannot move) so you should use Merulina (abilities on Merulina won't freeze you).

K-drive have probably almost 0 pros but many cons. Mastering her clunky movement won't make my game better.

*CLAPS*

To be honest we could have almost precise movement but DE implemented bullet jump instead of rolls (WHY?!).

 

36 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I enjoy playing with her every now and then, but it remains a disappointment to see how much potential DE let go to waste. There really isn't any good reason to lock her into secondaries while using Merulina, other than it being more work for DE I suppose. No good reason to kick her off Merulina when going Operator. Not sure why her movement is so stifled when using Merulina.

Of course simply boosting numbers would make the ability better, but within the scope of the game, I do not think it is good for balance to continue down the path of granting frames high DR to the tune of 90%. 

For the frame itself and within scope of the game's overall balance, I think the passive and innate DR granted via Merulina is pretty good, maybe still a bit high in terms of DR, but I won't get into that here. She'd be well served to have access to her primary and melee while using Merulina, or to have the option to equip 2 secondaries instead of a primary and a secondary, while giving Merulina a little more variety in terms of the types of manoeuvres one can pull off with it. Where's our aim-glide-esque movement? Where's our wall ride, or being able to jump from walls? Where's the ability to crouch and ride at slower speeds? Why the hell can't we mod Merulina? I get that players are giving up precision in movement for higher speed, DR and anti-ragdoll plus resistance to stagger and knockdown, but damn players are giving up one of the best movement systems in any game out there for those perks. The movement on Merulina should still be good and offer some decent variety.

Edit:  I want to rant a little more:
Why does Yareli get locked into a cast animation during her ult? My goodness that ability would feel so much better if she could at least get a shot off on enemies while they are grouped for that split second without having to use some sort of animation cancelling exploit. What's up with the "enemies gain 0.5s immunity to Aquablades after getting hit 3 consecutive times within 0.5s"? What the hell is that mechanic about? Isn't the point to the limited range and lack of melee on Merulina for Aquablades to serve as the melee replacement? Can we look forward to enemies being immune to melee strikes if they are hit too many times in quick succession as well in the future? How about enemies being immune to bullets if they get struck too often too? That's the level of silliness this mechanic has and it is a bit too silly, even for me.

I hate to say it, but it feels like the team that worked on Yareli didn't put as much time, thought, or effort, into her as teams used to put into other frames in the past.

They definitely should allow primaries on merulina. I understand why not melee because they use animations and combos but there is no reason why  de won't allow primaries. Adding mods to merulina would also add that "reward" for using merulina like the ability to regenerate energy.

 

[quxier]

14 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Adding mods to merulina would also add that "reward" for using merulina like the ability to regenerate energy.

and mod system would allow Merulina combat to be versatile (different) than frame's.

[Silligoose]

2 minutes ago, quxier said:

I'm not sure how strong "older frames" are (maybe old Quake Banshee) but it's still trivialize game (at least Xaku) on SP level.

Invisibility + silent weapons switches off enemies. Reave deletes whatever enemy with whatever health it may have - it can be 100 HP, it can be 1 billion HP, it doesn't matter, unless DE put in a special formula to prevent it. Mezmer Skin doesn't care how much damage a shot does. Iron Skin absorbs all damage - if you are facing enemies doing 50k damage, or 1 Billion damage, it still does its thing. Snow Globe is the same. Snow Globe also does 50% true damage based on max enemy HP to enemies when they collide with other things due to the push back from Snow Globe. Undertow doesn't care how much damage enemies do, or how much HP enemies have, although it does care about armour, so strip that. Hysteria doesn't care how much damage enemies can do, as long as it is deactivated without enemies within the aura and LOS. The Rift doesn't care what damage enemies can do. well, until recently I with the Eximus change.

Most of these abilities look at stats like enemy damage or enemy health and they just say "Nah, don't care" and that's that. There are specific exceptions, like gas clouds bypassing Mezmer skin, or Eximus abilities bypassing the Rift, but that's pretty much it. Their upper limits of power can never be exceeded, because they either have no upper limit, as is the case with Hysteria, or their upper limits based on whatever limits enemies have - the abilities were designed to overcome whatever obstacle is thrown at them and that is a design flaw, because it means that, unless the ability itself is negated, ie, it doesn't work for whatever reason, such as not allowing an enemy to be pulled into Undertow, it can never be challenged. It leads to a feast or famine style of gameplay - as long as the ability works as it should, the frame can never really be challenged and when it no longer works as it should, the frame runs into serious trouble, very quickly.

1 hour ago, quxier said:

I'm not sure about that. Xaku literally melting 4k SP kuva grineers.

They are melting armour stripped Grineer. It's good, but it isn't exceptional.

1 hour ago, quxier said:

They might not be that powerful but they still trivialize some content almost effortlessly.

They can trivialize content, but they have an upper limit and as such, if DE wanted to, they could have those upper limits challenged.

1 hour ago, quxier said:

I'm huge fan of such abilities. I can manage to have ability without turning it on every N minute. That's progress. Same as gloom: no enemy = no drain And other features.

To each their own. I'm fine with Gloom, as it works very differently: Gyre is forced to get kills/assists. If you don't maintain that, then you can't use the ability for a period of time, no matter what. With Gloom if you run out of energy, you can just restore it and get back to business.

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Sure, but it's not like you need that kind of durability. I think I have took her on SP Zariman and, except few cheaters, survived just fine.

What do you mean by "except for a few cheaters"?

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Sure, but boring "damage everything within N meters" abilities that you turn on for a lot of time shouldn't exist (nor stupid grind in this game).

They might not be powerful but they are still braindead abilities (at least part of them).

To each their own. I see it as a replacement for some other damage boosting/enemy debuffing ability, but I understand your point of view as well.

1 hour ago, quxier said:

*CLAPS*

To be honest we could have almost precise movement but DE implemented bullet jump instead of rolls (WHY?!).

You are going to set me off on another rant about her lol. Dammit DE why?!

[Silligoose]

54 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

They definitely should allow primaries on merulina. I understand why not melee because they use animations and combos but there is no reason why  de won't allow primaries. Adding mods to merulina would also add that "reward" for using merulina like the ability to regenerate energy.

 

The sad thing to me is, DE put in the time and effort to give other frames specialized stances. They could probably have done the same kind of thing for Yareli, but chose not to. At this point I suppose it is all wishful thinking. :/

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

19 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

The sad thing to me is, DE put in the time and effort to give other frames specialized stances. They could probably have done the same kind of thing for Yareli, but chose not to. At this point I suppose it is all wishful thinking. :/

Wishful thinking until Yareli prime with new Kpop inspired emotes prime access comes out.

[quxier]

5 hours ago, Silligoose said:

6 hours ago, quxier said:

I'm huge fan of such abilities. I can manage to have ability without turning it on every N minute. That's progress. Same as gloom: no enemy = no drain And other features.

To each their own. I'm fine with Gloom, as it works very differently: Gyre is forced to get kills/assists. If you don't maintain that, then you can't use the ability for a period of time, no matter what. With Gloom if you run out of energy, you can just restore it and get back to business.

Sure, with Gyre you need kill but you need to do kill 1 enemy every 3 seconds. After 52 seconds (8 second initial then rest of countdown) after non-moded ability you can cast it again.

Moded:

155 duration gives me 12.4 duration + 4.65 duration/kill. So I need to kill 12 enemies or 1 enemy each ~4 second.

Sure, if you are weak (e.g. wrong mods or something), enemies removes your abilities (stupid nullies, Stalker friends etc). In normal starchart I can easily keep this ability active during whole mission. In rare case of "no enemies" it might be problematic.

5 hours ago, Silligoose said:

6 hours ago, quxier said:

Sure, but it's not like you need that kind of durability. I think I have took her on SP Zariman and, except few cheaters, survived just fine.

What do you mean by "except for a few cheaters"?

Stalker friend(s) can stunluck us for some time. It's basically long death. I've learned that they cannot do it when I'm bunny hopping (I've not tested that too much).

5 hours ago, Silligoose said:

6 hours ago, quxier said:

*CLAPS*

To be honest we could have almost precise movement but DE implemented bullet jump instead of rolls (WHY?!).

You are going to set me off on another rant about her lol. Dammit DE why?!

Yeah, me too. I've written many stuffs about yareli already. Such disappointment.

5 hours ago, Silligoose said:

6 hours ago, quxier said:

They might not be that powerful but they still trivialize some content almost effortlessly.

They can trivialize content, but they have an upper limit and as such, if DE wanted to, they could have those upper limits challenged.

Sure but when can they can change how strong enemies are but I don't think it will be "soon ^ tm".

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Gyres ball CCs, electricity CCs. 

Volt doesn't replenish shields without an augment. 

Edit: they both can use shield gating, negating your claim Gyre "has nothing of that."

Would you like me to start copy-pasting wikis for you?

Her CC is trash due to how it works and due to how bad the physics are on her ball. No you are right, Volt doesnt replenish shields without an augment, that doesnt remove that he has the option to build for massive shield reg with that augment. Probably one of the strongest augments in the game and would be silly as a baseline part of the skill. 

All* frames can use the shield gate that Gyre has to rely on though, so it isnt something specific to her kit or frame that makes her better designed. It isnt on the same level as Volt, not even close, since he doesnt need to cheese anything, doesnt need to sacrifice anything really to get the best possible return. Volt with the augment is like a suped up version of dragon key cheese, but without the need to sacrifice shields and/or run negative efficiency along with shield/energy mods.

21 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Rule number 96: Aim

Yet with perfect aim it wont even go through a void archway door, so exactly how is aim gonna help against "invisible" growths on Deimos or other infested tiles when they are everywhere around you? It has such a poor hitbox that it makes the first iteration of Catchmoon look flawless.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Her CC is trash due to how it works and due to how bad the physics are on her ball. No you are right, Volt doesnt replenish shields without an augment, that doesnt remove that he has the option to build for massive shield reg with that augment. Probably one of the strongest augments in the game and would be silly as a baseline part of the skill. 

All* frames can use the shield gate that Gyre has to rely on though, so it isnt something specific to her kit or frame that makes her better designed. It isnt on the same level as Volt, not even close, since he doesnt need to cheese anything, doesnt need to sacrifice anything really to get the best possible return. Volt with the augment is like a suped up version of dragon key cheese, but without the need to sacrifice shields and/or run negative efficiency along with shield/energy mods.

Yet with perfect aim it wont even go through a void archway door, so exactly how is aim gonna help against "invisible" growths on Deimos or other infested tiles when they are everywhere around you? It has such a poor hitbox that it makes the first iteration of Catchmoon look flawless.

Shield gating is worthless unless the player behind the frame is actually a good player. 

If someone is standing in the middle of a room with projectiles and AOE Splash damage hitting them from all angles faster than they can spam abilities to charge their shields (which means they're not attacking), they are always gonna die regardless of what frame they are.

Volt CCs without grouping, and Gyre does. 

The Physics of Gyres ball is once again dependent on the ability of the human behind the controller to aim.

[(PSN)aarott]

On 2022-08-09 at 9:33 PM, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

I only asked for her to have the normal 90% damage reduction every other defensive ability has, primaries on merulina, and damage on her 4. Don't tell me you use Yareli and think that wouldn't make her much better.

Grabbing any warframe and increasing their ability's numbers by 2.5x would probably make them better, yeah. So would removing any limitations that are on their abilities. But, as a tenno whose most played warframe is Yareli and who's cleared 20 waves of SP Mot with her a couple of times, let me tell you why these buffs aren't necessary. 

Merulina has a number of advantages over it's competitors in iron skin and warding halo. It is fully recastable and gives i-frames when doing so, so it never runs out unexpectedly if you keep an eye on it. It's 25 energy coming off a 300 energy pool, meaning a yareli can get 6 merulinas for every 2 warding halos a nezha gets. Most impressively, Merulina is unique amongst it's peers because it does not get instantly dispelled by nullifiers. It also increases speed while aiming. 

Now, 75% is not sufficient on it's own. I use the 2 arcanes that enhance shield recovery, adaptation, full umbral and a panzer with hunter recovery to recover health. And even then, I need to be careful not to expose myself to fire from many directions. But it's possible to tank and survive even level 150s, acolytes and cor-vor.  

Riptide has no pressing need to be buffed, either. Snares kill corpus, aquablades brutalise grineer and infested, and surging blades scale into SP quite well. Riptide's biggest purpose is to drain the trash from starchart and sortie mobs so that snares can latch the important targets, and it's other purpose is to be a long range nuking option in open world settings. I find it to be useful as a box breaker too, since it can break boxes through obstacles similar to cataclysm and vast untime. If her 4 needed anything, it's not damage, it's a modifiable duration so that it can be a better gathering tool to allow the blades to do the real work. 

[(PSN)aarott]

And another thing about Merulina: the reason it's 75% DR instead of the 90% or so other warframes enjoy is because it's 25 energy. If it was more DR, it should need to cost more energy; and if it becomes more costly in energy, the advantages of it being recastable start to go away, as does the utility of being able to get off the k-drive when it comes time to parkour and crouch and do moon wizard things. 

Assuming a higher DR also came with a higher energy cost, this would indeed mean that 90% DR'd arguably make her worse. 

 

Now what Merulina actually needs is more bug fixes and less lagging through the floor when client. That, and the ability to mod it so that I may have infinite energy. 

Maybe an augment for trick integration too, if I might be so greedy. 

[sunderthefirmament]

1 hour ago, (PSN)aarott said:

Assuming a higher DR also came with a higher energy cost, this would indeed mean that 90% DR'd arguably make her worse. 

It would also make Merulina more tempting for use with Brief Respite and Augur mods though.  I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I would welcome increased DR on Merulina even if the energy cost increased to 100.  What else am I using energy on Yareli for?  Sea Snares needs to be spammed to be effective, sure, but how often do I even bother casting it in the first place?  It's unreliable, and stationary CC doesn't really fit well with Yareli's kit anyway.  Her 3 has a really generous duration, so you don't need to cast it much.  I guess maybe the augment makes it worth casting repeatedly?  And her 4 is so ineffective it's not really worth the cast at all in most situations.  And Helminth abilities?  You can't use them on Merulina.

[(PSN)aarott]

5 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

What else am I using energy on Yareli for?

If you're not on the steel path, you can use that energy for spamming your other abilities to great effect. I use a max efficiency Riptide build to burn through rooms on the starchart, which works right up until higher level bounties. I run increased range + duration bubbles to kill spread out mobs in open world bounties where aquablades would be less useful. Even on Steel Path, you can use Sea Snares and Riptide for CC reasons.

Yes, they are of limited use against steel path enemies. But I don't believe abilities should be balanced around steel path in general, and especially not steel path grineer in particular with the armour formula the way it is. Bubbles is plenty good outside of it- completely unmodded, it 100-to-0s any corpus mob below tech rank in one go, which is pretty good for frames not named octavia. And riptide is also effective against enemies in that range, although the recent eximus change combined with the fact riptide has 90% damage fall off is really hurting. 

The stationary side of sea snares is kind of underwhelming, I agree; it feels like worse tectonics for blocking enemy access ways off. But I reckon snares just need an augment to become better as a trap for those kind of situations. 

6 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

And Helminth abilities?  You can't use them on Merulina.

And that's another reason why increasing Merulina's cost is a bad idea. At the moment, it's a 25+ energy surcharge to use a helminth ability. If the cost increased, it would cost 50+ energy, or double the cost of most options.

[SenorClipClop]

I have a feeling that the more recent Warframes are underwhelming for one or more of a few reasons:

• The studio has been really distracted making content. With TNW and Angels of the Zariman coming out pretty close to each other, and with Veilbreaker, Duviri and Crossplay/Crosssave slated to release this year, frame design has been on the backburner.
• DE might be going quantity over quality. Some people will like the frame and make it work, and for those who don't there are almost 50 other frames.
• Our current level of power-creep / ease-creep has made a return to form feel underwhelming. We are too used to AoE/afk Wukong meta that when new tools don't trivialize content on their own, they are lackluster.

To be fair, though:

• Yareli needs a few tweaks. Her 4 is incredibly weak, and Merulina needs a mode with a slower top speed and near-instant acceleration, with a reduction in bouncing off of obstacles and a perhaps a bit of collision reduction.
• Caliban is capable, but (for me at least) he's just boring. 1 is a repeat of the Spectral Scream mistake (locking the player into an action that is weaker than anything else they could be doing), 2 and 4 are okay but don't contribute to gameplay loops well, and 3 is set-and-forget. Caliban needs complexity more than anything.
• But Gyre is legit fine. The only thing she struggles against is Armor (specifically Alloy Armor) which we have a hundred ways to remove. A Warframe doesn't need to take care of all problems by themselves.