wow i was right....

[Lutesque]

8 hours ago, (PSN)ErydisTheLucario said:

No freaking way. They're really buffing stick prime? Finally?!

Don't get too Excited.... The Bar for Exhalted Weapons is Extremely low....

 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I mean, a lot of people threw out speculation, suggestions, guesses, predictions and ideas about what would happen. There is also a relatively limited amount of changes that DE can institute. One particular user mentioned the specific buff of Wuklone doing less damage/half normally, but more when they are marked to an enemy. If we all made threads exclaiming all own predictive power and how 'wowwy, wow-how-right-we-were, Obama meme of hanging a medal around our own neck' thats all General Discussion would be.

That all being said... I am not sure you are interpreting what "nothing" means in this content. If you mean nothing as far as your personal effect from hearing such changes... sure. Thats not what it means to DE though, most changes see relative degrees of impact. They are approaching this thinking of all players, in multiple contexts. Just because you can Helminth an ability that pumps out extra ammo, or just because I have 1000 Ammo pads ready to drop, isn't what they are thinking. 

Like when they made the changes to melee and speed, its not like they were ignorant that some players have Rivens that increase speed. Its not a "gotcha" for a player to be like, haha you think you nerfed melee speed, but I got a Riven DE, What now? Its about overall player usage, patterns, behaviours, incentives and minor modifications that can influence. Nothing is static anyway, change often happens naturally, modifications, like nerfs, buffs can make that happen faster and in different ways. 

So to DE, what is "happening" is that after such changes, happen, they'll wait and keep looking at their data, and see if they change in ways they find favourable. If they remain exactly the same... well then yeah, "nothing happened", but thats rare, not the first time change has happened, and its more likely change will happen, but the point of contention will be by how much. Will Wukong popularity increase? Decrease? By how much? 1% is different to 3%. 

These are nerfs. Nerfs aren't a swear word or bad word. Nerfs don't mean a character isn't powerful, great, the best, etc etc we don't have to cloud step around egg shells with our terminology, and nerfs aren't mutually exclusive with buffs. So he was also buffed too. Buffed and nerfed in different aspects. Your own playstyle also influences perceptions too. Like for someone that does not want to use the 4, but loves to let Clone kill a lot, this is more of a nerf, to someone who rather use the 4 more and not Clone, this is more of a nerf buff... but more objectively, both did happen, its the context. 

Personally I would say the 4 being buffed is more of a highlight, too, so agree in that context. Thats just my playstyle preference though. I tend to like more active playstyles. 

[0_The_F00l]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I mean, a lot of people threw out speculation, suggestions, guesses, predictions and ideas about what would happen. There is also a relatively limited amount of changes that DE can institute. One particular user mentioned the specific buff of Wuklone doing less damage/half normally, but more when they are marked to an enemy. If we all made threads exclaiming all own predictive power and how 'wowwy, wow-how-right-we-were, Obama meme of hanging a medal around our own neck' thats all General Discussion would be.

That all being said... I am not sure you are interpreting what "nothing" means in this content. If you mean nothing as far as your personal effect from hearing such changes... sure. Thats not what it means to DE though, most changes see relative degrees of impact. They are approaching this thinking of all players, in multiple contexts. Just because you can Helminth an ability that pumps out extra ammo, or just because I have 1000 Ammo pads ready to drop, isn't what they are thinking. 

Like when they made the changes to melee and speed, its not like they were ignorant that some players have Rivens that increase speed. Its not a "gotcha" for a player to be like, haha you think you nerfed melee speed, but I got a Riven DE, What now? Its about overall player usage, patterns, behaviours, incentives and minor modifications that can influence. Nothing is static anyway, change often happens naturally, modifications, like nerfs, buffs can make that happen faster and in different ways. 

So to DE, what is "happening" is that after such changes, happen, they'll wait and keep looking at their data, and see if they change in ways they find favourable. If they remain exactly the same... well then yeah, "nothing happened", but thats rare, not the first time change has happened, and its more likely change will happen, but the point of contention will be by how much. Will Wukong popularity increase? Decrease? By how much? 1% is different to 3%. 

These are nerfs. Nerfs aren't a swear word or bad word. Nerfs don't mean a character isn't powerful, great, the best, etc etc we don't have to cloud step around egg shells with our terminology, and nerfs aren't mutually exclusive with buffs. So he was also buffed too. Buffed and nerfed in different aspects. Your own playstyle also influences perceptions too. Like for someone that does not want to use the 4, but loves to let Clone kill a lot, this is more of a nerf, to someone who rather use the 4 more and not Clone, this is more of a nerf buff... but more objectively, both did happen, its the context. 

Personally I would say the 4 being buffed is more of a highlight, too, so agree in that context. Thats just my playstyle preference though. I tend to like more active playstyles. 

Nicely put together.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Nicely put together.

 

Thank you. 

[Yamazuki]

38 minutes ago, ChaoticEdge said:

Watch they going nerf wukong so bad and everyone is going complain so bad because DE fug it up so bad they are going try revert the dumb crud again.  This is where my PTSD where the confusion between DE and ... that person whom we shouldn't announce all over again but they did it they kick in the PTSD for the game for the players again.

They're mostly targeting his clone, and it's mostly for 'high level' content. Reducing damage still means it still kills enemies where most people play the game... and most people aren't trying to afk in Survival for hours to begin with. The other reasons the normal people play him, are going untouched... he still keeps his passive, high base stats, and alternative to Bullet Jumping and a no brainer ability to replace.

I honestly think Survival needs to be changed. The mission may be called Survival, but what it really is, AFK in the safe closet. Explosives, or Wukong, aren't necessary to just 'afk' in Survival. DE targeted Khora not long ago, and neither of these 3 are the only ways to do this... You can literally take an automatic rifle that is modded decently and just hold the button down in a corner and do something on your phone and not care at all. The mission at its core has absolutely nothing going on. Other than essentially Defense, all missions should encourage some movement.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

7 hours ago, ChaoticEdge said:

Watch they going nerf wukong so bad and everyone is going complain so bad because DE fug it up so bad they are going try revert the dumb crud again.  This is where my PTSD where the confusion between DE and ... that person whom we shouldn't announce all over again but they did it they kick in the PTSD for the game for the players again.

Did you not see the devstream? Wukong nerfs are super minor with iron staff getting buffed, it might as well be rebalancing instead of a nerf cause it's also a buff.

Instead DE is nerfing AoE and are planning to take further steps on that if the changes they use on those don't affect their usage (which I'm sure they won't.)

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

6 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

They're mostly targeting his clone, and it's mostly for 'high level' content. Reducing damage still means it still kills enemies where most people play the game... and most people aren't trying to afk in Survival for hours to begin with. The other reasons the normal people play him, are going untouched... he still keeps his passive, high base stats, and alternative to Bullet Jumping and a no brainer ability to replace.

I honestly think Survival needs to be changed. The mission may be called Survival, but what it really is, AFK in the safe closet. Explosives, or Wukong, aren't necessary to just 'afk' in Survival. DE targeted Khora not long ago, and neither of these 3 are the only ways to do this... You can literally take an automatic rifle that is modded decently and just hold the button down in a corner and do something on your phone and not care at all. The mission at its core has absolutely nothing going on. Other than essentially Defense, all missions should encourage some movement.

Apparently raids are returning next year.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb ChaoticEdge:

Watch they going nerf wukong so bad and everyone is going complain so bad because DE fug it up so bad they are going try revert the dumb crud again.  This is where my PTSD where the confusion between DE and ... that person whom we shouldn't announce all over again but they did it they kick in the PTSD for the game for the players again.

wukong is the same. 1 was rubbish, 3 and 4 useless. and his only useful 2 skill stayed the same.
capture or resque or spy sortie can still be played through quickly.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

6 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I mean, a lot of people threw out speculation, suggestions, guesses, predictions and ideas about what would happen. There is also a relatively limited amount of changes that DE can institute. One particular user mentioned the specific buff of Wuklone doing less damage/half normally, but more when they are marked to an enemy. If we all made threads exclaiming all own predictive power and how 'wowwy, wow-how-right-we-were, Obama meme of hanging a medal around our own neck' thats all General Discussion would be.

That all being said... I am not sure you are interpreting what "nothing" means in this content. If you mean nothing as far as your personal effect from hearing such changes... sure. Thats not what it means to DE though, most changes see relative degrees of impact. They are approaching this thinking of all players, in multiple contexts. Just because you can Helminth an ability that pumps out extra ammo, or just because I have 1000 Ammo pads ready to drop, isn't what they are thinking. 

Like when they made the changes to melee and speed, its not like they were ignorant that some players have Rivens that increase speed. Its not a "gotcha" for a player to be like, haha you think you nerfed melee speed, but I got a Riven DE, What now? Its about overall player usage, patterns, behaviours, incentives and minor modifications that can influence. Nothing is static anyway, change often happens naturally, modifications, like nerfs, buffs can make that happen faster and in different ways. 

So to DE, what is "happening" is that after such changes, happen, they'll wait and keep looking at their data, and see if they change in ways they find favourable. If they remain exactly the same... well then yeah, "nothing happened", but thats rare, not the first time change has happened, and its more likely change will happen, but the point of contention will be by how much. Will Wukong popularity increase? Decrease? By how much? 1% is different to 3%. 

These are nerfs. Nerfs aren't a swear word or bad word. Nerfs don't mean a character isn't powerful, great, the best, etc etc we don't have to cloud step around egg shells with our terminology, and nerfs aren't mutually exclusive with buffs. So he was also buffed too. Buffed and nerfed in different aspects. Your own playstyle also influences perceptions too. Like for someone that does not want to use the 4, but loves to let Clone kill a lot, this is more of a nerf, to someone who rather use the 4 more and not Clone, this is more of a nerf buff... but more objectively, both did happen, its the context. 

Personally I would say the 4 being buffed is more of a highlight, too, so agree in that context. Thats just my playstyle preference though. I tend to like more active playstyles. 

What I meant by "doing nothing" is that while this is some rebalancing, the actual culprits abusing the nerf worthy stuff are simply going to try and circumvent the nerf. Even during the stream de said that mods scaled too high to really get affected by a 50% nerf.

That's why de has these looming threats of a second AoE nerf. They know people are going to circumvent the nerf, and when enough people do, that's when self stagger and LoS changes start dropping in. 

I'm not even upset about Wukong nerfs tbh. People wanted to ruin him so much more than these changes, and seeing as I can still speed through missions, AoE stun the map, have extra lives, and now having grouping, I think he's still my "do everything" Warframe.

Unless DE accidentally buffs nidus with the shield crystals.

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

15 hours ago, gamingchair1121 said:

yeah these changes aren't doing anything

they are the only first try if they are not happy they have whole list of others waiting thats just a few keystrokes to impliment.  things dont change in month we will see LOS on aoe and other even more extreme nerfs

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

What I meant by "doing nothing" is that while this is some rebalancing, the actual culprits abusing the nerf worthy stuff are simply going to try and circumvent the nerf. Even during the stream de said that mods scaled too high to really get affected by a 50% nerf.

That's why de has these looming threats of a second AoE nerf. They know people are going to circumvent the nerf, and when enough people do, that's when self stagger and LoS changes start dropping in. 

I'm not even upset about Wukong nerfs tbh. People wanted to ruin him so much more than these changes, and seeing as I can still speed through missions, AoE stun the map, have extra lives, and now having grouping. I think he's in the same spot I had for him before the nerf.

 

I get ya. To think about it another way, thats basically most of Warframe as far as buffs and nerfs. It is just rebalancing, Warframe is a PVE game, stuff usually isn't too dramatic. So then what do you mean by the "actual culprits" and are you sure that they are the "actual culprits to DE"? The people who are going to try and circumvent the nerf, **are** doing what DE wants them to. Thats a part of the strategy, that they have to jump through hoops and are inconvenienced and need to look for ways to replicate a past style. Also, not all people will do that. 

I disagree about DE's motivation for further looming threats. I think its transparency, because lets take the melee nerfs and gun buffs. The gun Arcanes, Galvanised Mods were a significant boost and changed the meta. Melee is still really good, the meta melee weapons especially, but hypothetically, the melee nerfs may not have been necessary given the gun buffs. So its a good thing. If DE looks at the nerfs to AOE and see a drop in usage, they see positive feedback in forums and social media, stats and data that show more weapon diversity, is happening. Then further nerfs will be unnecessarily and potentially heavy handed. If AOE remains as is, or gets worse somehow, then their solution will be viewed as lacking, so they'll attempt to implement more solutions. I think you are putting undue emphasis on the idea that DE focuses on the idea of some players bypassing solutions, as opposed to a larger holistic approach. 

As for the last part, yeah totally. You shouldn't. I can sympathise with that, too about players wanting to ruin him, I still think Wukong will be very strong and popular. None of this in my opinion though is intended to be viewed in isolation. Its about how it all connects and plays together. One of my favs Nyx got an indirect nerf, by virtue of many other Warframes being able to armour strip better with their abilities, but I think its a good change for the game overall and making them more viable for more content. Lots of Warframes get indirectly nerfed all the time. Often its really more of a playstyle issue. Mirage may actually be negatively impacted more with some of these changes, depending on how her Explosive Legerdemain works with the new ammo changes. 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

50 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

I'm not even upset about Wukong nerfs tbh. People wanted to ruin him so much more than these changes, and seeing as I can still speed through missions, AoE stun the map, have extra lives, and now having grouping, I think he's still my "do everything" Warframe.

 

Oh and I forget to mention, Wukong is getting a Voidshell skin. So thats at least one objectively great thing to look forward to. 

 

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

1 minute ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

Oh and I forget to mention, Wukong is getting a Voidshell skin. So thats at least one objectively great thing to look forward to. 

 

I'm excited but I wish default Wukong didn't have those weird feet. Hopefully I don't notice it when the skin is out. 

Also Excalibur and Nova skins are exciting as well.

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

10 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Don't get too Excited.... The Bar for Exhalted Weapons is Extremely low....

 

Unfortunately you're right. Just figured it would be somewhat useful again, like when they buffed Wukong the first time before making him only worth using for his clone and speed.

[ChaoticEdge]

10 hours ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Did you not see the devstream? Wukong nerfs are super minor with iron staff getting buffed, it might as well be rebalancing instead of a nerf cause it's also a buff.

Instead DE is nerfing AoE and are planning to take further steps on that if the changes they use on those don't affect their usage (which I'm sure they won't.)

oh sorry I forgot mention the other nerf and unnessary rework like mag and volt....Where IS THE REWORK FOR FROST AND LOKI!? 

 

[(XBOX)Shodian]

3 minutes ago, ChaoticEdge said:

Where IS THE REWORK FOR FROST AND LOKI!? 

Cause they don't need reworks.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb ChaoticEdge:

oh sorry I forgot mention the other nerf and unnessary rework like mag and volt....Where IS THE REWORK FOR FROST AND LOKI!? 

 

yes... frost was my favorite in 2013.
but now he's laughable... he can't even defend obj on sp. w t f is that?

[ChaoticEdge]

17 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

They're mostly targeting his clone, and it's mostly for 'high level' content. Reducing damage still means it still kills enemies where most people play the game... and most people aren't trying to afk in Survival for hours to begin with. The other reasons the normal people play him, are going untouched... he still keeps his passive, high base stats, and alternative to Bullet Jumping and a no brainer ability to replace.

I honestly think Survival needs to be changed. The mission may be called Survival, but what it really is, AFK in the safe closet. Explosives, or Wukong, aren't necessary to just 'afk' in Survival. DE targeted Khora not long ago, and neither of these 3 are the only ways to do this... You can literally take an automatic rifle that is modded decently and just hold the button down in a corner and do something on your phone and not care at all. The mission at its core has absolutely nothing going on. Other than essentially Defense, all missions should encourage some movement.

the clone isn't the problem, heck we have specters who will level the playing field the same way for all you need is atlas/prime as specters and give him the gun aren't explosive then he level all the field no matter where you at then we got syndicate specters, orokin specters from Baros, then we got sweet loving specter calling the crew as we got ARCH GUNS TO DEAL WITH IT!  Oh don't forget Caliban has his own special sentient bros smack few ppl for he does AoE, he doesn't need to kill them all he needs to stunlock the crowds and also vauban can vortex and we can lots crazy things which we don't have to sit in the corner the room, we just do it in the hallway with AR type weapons, add punch though the enemies, and then just sit there and watch lots these maggot NPC get suck in 1 place and we just drill in with AR, it isn't explosive fault, it isn't AR fault, it is ppl at fault not design to counter the problem before comes to hand.

16 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Cause they don't need reworks.

That is a lie you know it!  Where is all the Frost Main or Loki Main?!?  I barely see them walk anywhere!  I never see them doing ANY SPY OR DEFENSE MISSION AND I END UP SEEING BARELY ANYONE USE THEM!  You just cause me go like this

12 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

yes... frost was my favorite in 2013.
but now he's laughable... he can't even defend obj on sp. w t f is that?

See he even agree with me!  It is time for the suffering to stop!

As again, I seen enough suffering again.  Warframe is pose to be a frame shape who you are, who you love, the freedom of the frame gives you, the joy, the happiness, the time you spent together.  I spent my time playing rhino, excal, and nearly every single frames, "They were my joy", if something is dieing, it needs to be cared and not to be forgotten!  We had a Roadmap before all this and that was during 2016 remembering to be clear and what happen to it DE?  WHAT HAPPEN TO IT!  We all the players, community, you Dev were happy to be on this roadmap to do these rework in the right time.  I am going back in the shower and cry all over again because you cause my PTSD trigger of my flashback how we got to the point.

Spoiler

10 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

wukong is the same. 1 was rubbish, 3 and 4 useless. and his only useful 2 skill stayed the same.
capture or resque or spy sortie can still be played through quickly.

Also, they nerf 4 because it was too great during that time before they nerf range and they want rebuff dmg to the iron poll stick?  They did this back 2018 nerfing dmg of exalted weapons and now they want rebuff them?! 

[MutoManiac]

Thank baby J. That Pablo realized nerfing Wukong too much would take away fun. You know, DE might actually know what they are doing, unlike some experts here.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

4 minutes ago, ChaoticEdge said:

That is a lie you know it!  Where is all the Frost Main or Loki Main?!?  I barely see them walk anywhere!  I never see them doing ANY SPY OR DEFENSE MISSION AND I END UP SEEING BARELY ANYONE USE THEM!

Couple things, first stop yelling. Lol

Second just because you don't see a lot of them doesn't mean they're not being used.

Lastly, are their kits good? I'll admit Loki isn't the most fun Warframe to play but that doesn't mean that they are bad at what they do.

Pablo said in his Brozime interview he used Frost on a high level bounty mission in Zariman. 

In conclusion, have a snickers. You're not yourself when you're hungry.

[MutoManiac]

21 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

yes... frost was my favorite in 2013.
but now he's laughable... he can't even defend obj on sp. w t f is that?

I just built frost prime (so newish to me as I never really played the regular frost) and am doing defense SP with him which works great. So there’s a better frame for that? I like the fact that bullets can’t penetrate the snow globe. But this makes me stay still inside the bubble which is a bit boring.

[Venus-Venera]

Gerade eben schrieb m_a_r_c_h_:

I just built frost prime (so newish to me as I never really played the regular frost) and am doing defense SP with him which works great. So there’s a better frame for that? I like the fact that bullets can’t penetrate the snow globe. But this makes me stay still inside the bubble which is a bit boring.

It's great and good... you only notice disadvantages if you play with it for a long time and can compare it with other warframes. I've maxed out almost everything.
play more often with frost mob def solo vs. ranged on sp. you will have a lot of fun with energy drain and nulli....

and... a joker like Heavy Gunner will blow the bubble away in no time.

[MutoManiac]

4 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

It's great and good... you only notice disadvantages if you play with it for a long time and can compare it with other warframes. I've maxed out almost everything.
play more often with frost mob def solo vs. ranged on sp. you will have a lot of fun with energy drain and nulli....

and... a joker like Heavy Gunner will blow the bubble away in no time.

Just clearing the SP star chart as I go, so no endurance runs for me. Probably won’t see a problem hopefully.

[ChaoticEdge]

Just now, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Couple things, first stop yelling. Lol

Second just because you don't see a lot of them doesn't mean they're not being used.

Lastly, are their kits good? I'll admit Loki isn't the most fun Warframe to play but that doesn't mean that they are bad at what they do.

Pablo said in his Brozime interview he used Frost on a high level bounty mission in Zariman. 

In conclusion, have a snickers. You're not yourself when you're hungry.

I am having my PTSD!!!! Also SORRY I just got my therapy done from my last 2020!

Also, trying claim down and not lost my 💩 to my PTSD again, Loki hadn't had any update for he is a frame who is the glasses of the glass no matter how great you put him, he will always be The Sergent man

The fact, why I say it, loki will end up dieing a lot on his mission because even shield negate ability, it won't save him enough because thanks to the loving update rework eximus enemies.   Also a lie about it, Frost still have problem, Pablo may test him in Zariman mission but the only real problem is "what weapons he used", that depend on "weapons" not the frame itself, sure he defended the target that is no brainer just snow globe it the defending target and that is really easy but he never had to defend moving target that is where annoying part where you have to destroy the snow globe with the 1 button then you have to place it down again where it is at, then if the target move again you have to keep on moving it.  The only biggest problem is Frost doesn't have anything to stop troops not killing anyone  in the snow globe for you bullets if your shooting from the outside, nothing come into the globe even explosive, but yes I understand there is a mod to stop enemies entering the globe that is only 50% chance they get frozen in spot, what about eximus who doesn't give rat care about status effect which this is where come in no brainer, everyone pick explosive weapons and that is it the answer is solved right?! No, they are nerfing explosive and the players have to work it out more using frost 4 or 2 to stop or slow down crowds but reality, they don't use it offten for they will say "screw it, I am going bombard everyone!" and pops out arch guns or just summon bunch specters, or just use tenno's ability suck all them into 1 spot which make frost pretty dang useless at this point for "what is the point putting up the snow globe when everyone just throw in their specters or just use frame nuke the entire map".  We are walking backwards again, not forward, the dev try solve so much case the issues that the players is spending the progress too fast or moving out too quick, that is how we pose to be, you send out word Ninja, the subject of the word Ninja is getting the mission done and quick.  You sent in SP mission for players to do, yea that was fun but nerfing AoE wasn't problem, it just everyone was poking at the AI a lot more then you think, we had idea during before the sentient war come in, before the scarlet spear which we thought we r going get sentient corpus that is going EMP lot on warframe's abilities more for we got minor amount of them, maybe they should of thought about if players want to turn up difficult level bit further or more troops of this version to be more active instead of less active, this is only problem DE isn't thinking right!  They aren't giving players an option to make 1 good suggestion, choose-able to fight against certain troops in game mode like for example "they want more special troops to show up" instead of regular grunts but the DE reject the idea and they go off not caring about suggestions or their old Roadmap.  They look for any reason why it should be nerf for the smallest and tiny amount of it.  That is why the refusal of ppl who ask Frost get rework is still high demand for the dev ignore every single time and don't want provide evident that we players r bunch of smart little trolls who would troll around alot and you won't want admit it just grab wolf sledge and have nice boom by throwing it because ragdoll hasn't been fix on that because it is return of neckros old soul punch ragdoll power send a man to the moon that is all I can say and yes we all the players bunch clever smart little trolls.  They could easily rework frost by changing his 4 to be wide aura freeze the area becoming a true crowd controller and freezing them in 1 spot and dmg over time and dmg them causing freeze, magnet and armor stripping the same time for that would of been done but no they didn't or loki just get more double gangs that auto scale instead of forcing his decoy to be same lvl 1 character that DIES with 1 HIT but nope they don't want scale that mf decoy at all or improve that anything about loki like his 4th ability of disarm could of been decoy has ability to disarm enemy if drawn attention to disarming it or something better then that because we limited our imagination because we keep on hearing the phrase "the limits is our imagination" that I hate that word of term because we aren't stepping outside our limitation because the limits imagination is "boundless" and we can't let to be set on that limit that is why stepping beyond that point is the reason why to provide better chose among the ppl for I have to say it we need to take a step forward and not behind the line.  That what make the game great for example sonic was step forward imagination even popeye the sailor man was step beyond imagination for him for these characters weren't put a limit, they were push to make them great back then and they still got it today.  This is where we want frames to be push by a step, not where it stand to be forgotten, to remember by and not to be left by, to keep a legend alive by hearts and memories and not to mock and laugh, this is the same old PTSD of vauban's story, same inflecting so many frames getting the same old PTSD a legend getting laugh about every time.  Mirage meta and she don't have problem, trinity is meta and she also don't have problem, but there is problem in old frames that didn't end up being in the middle for either they end up being in D class for C- for we all the players grade them their performance and we end up saying "they are irrelevant" or "why they even exist?" No one want to question DE about this but now it is the best time to judge carefully their action, to the point not to rough but provide to help them to shape the game for everyone happiness.

[CephalonCarnage]

All those using Wukong so they can go have a cup of tea can be fixed quite easily - give the twin a duration. If he disappears after 30-40 seconds, the Wukong players will have to babysit it at least a little.