AoE Changes - subtle but impactful? [post Devstream discussion]

[Oorel]

We once had self-damage on explosive weapons but as it had some issues with hitting your pets or other players and dealing the weapons actual damage to you it became frustrating with the introduction of the Kuva Bramma. Sadly, we also got the introduction of Shield-gating soon after self-damage was removed in favor of self-stagger. If shield-gating came before the Bramma we may be in a better place.

I think getting hit with a given explosive weapons actual damage was absurd, and if self-damage was its own damage type limited to a set say 400 true damage or something akin to that AoE would be in a better place where we cant just spam explosions at our feet.

[TARINunit9]

Ok, so, there are game design reasons to include or not include self damage. But the traditional arguments aren't relevant this week. Instead we are dealing with a different set of arguments

The point of the upcoming AoE nerf isn't to actually balance explosive weapons. It's to make it harder for Wukong to play the game while AFK.

With that priority in mind, self-damage accomplishes nothing, and only frustrates everyone playing the game fairly

[Krion112]

I'd be perfectly fine with Self-Damage returning, probably just about exactly as it was, because we do have Shield Gating now.

Like, seriously, why DE removed Self-Damage the same update they implemented Shield Gating will always be beyond me, because Shield Gating could easily have been seen as one of the main solutions to the biggest complaints about Self-Damage, which was getting yourself killed from a single accidental attack.
Shield Gating prevents this, but blowing your own shields off can still be a drastic enough downside to warrant a little more caution. Death after that point is just blatantly on the Player's own recklessness.

(As I addressed someone's point later, it'd also be far easier, from a game-design perspective, to address potential issues of Self-Damage, than to try to make every other weapon type relevant to the power of AoE Weaponry)

[Lutesque]

Put it Right next to Void Sling and Eximus Rework.... I'm Sure DE will get around to it... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Skoomaseller]

this is most of the time why I'm glad DE doesn't take forum opinions seriously

self damage was crap, and was shot dead for good reason. no need to bring it back from the dead

[gamingchair1121]

why are people even against self damage? there should be some amount of risk because you are doing more damage.

[Tyreaus]

Or we could polish up self-stagger so that it feels snappier and more reliable as a counter-measure. Or nerf PSF so that it reduces staggers down a tier, making them more like the brief stuns present when tagging yourself at the further end of an explosion. Or we could have AoE weapons temporarily disabled when you hit yourself with a blast. Or we could add in delays so explosives go off only after a second has passed (whether in flight or embedded in an enemy / surface).

There's a billion different ways to nerf or balance AoE weapons. All of them are interesting in their own ways. Arguments could be made for any of them. And I'm sure every single one of them has a major problem of some sort.

4 minutes ago, gamingchair1121 said:

why are people even against self damage? there should be some amount of risk because you are doing more damage.

My personal reason is that AoE mechanics are all over the place, but the consequences of messing up don't match that. OP's proposal makes that quite literal.

Take something like the Zhuge Prime. Acceptable damage, but nothing out of the ordinary. Yet because of the explosion delay, you can tag something like an Osprey, have it charge you, and suddenly you're on death's door as the arrow explodes in your face. Meanwhile, the Acceltra has an arming distance that all but explicitly prevents self-damage. One ends up vastly more dangerous and unpredictable than the other, and it's pretty darn difficult to account for that.

[Krion112]

37 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

#*!% Inaros and Nidus in particular I guess.

Or hell, you decided to bring a Toxin Weapon because of Corpus units, I hope you're ready to be slapped when the projectile bounces off the Nullifier field and kills you idiot.

Nidus has Mutation Stacks to gate Damage, so he's still covered.
But, I don't think making an argument on the basis of outliers to the system is the best idea. It'd be easier to find a way to handle some damage gating for Inaros to prevent such severe self damage, than it would be to try and make every other weapon type relevant to the current AoE Meta. Probably the same with handling Toxin Damage.

The Nullifier Field argument is particularly weak; those are highly telegraphed. If a player shot directly at a Nullifier Field, knowing full well they deflect projectiles, then they only have themselves to blame when their own rocket deflects back to them and blows them up. (But again, even Shield Gating would reduce that risk, while still being a detriment)

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Oorel:

We once had self-damage on explosive weapons but as it had some issues with hitting your pets or other players and dealing the weapons actual damage to you it became frustrating with the introduction of the Kuva Bramma. Sadly, we also got the introduction of Shield-gating soon after self-damage was removed in favor of self-stagger. If shield-gating came before the Bramma we may be in a better place.

I think getting hit with a given explosive weapons actual damage was absurd, and if self-damage was its own damage type limited to a set say 400 true damage or something akin to that AoE would be in a better place where we cant just spam explosions at our feet.

this is the most nonsense i have ever seen in a game!
warframe is not a camp game!
I can't even count how many times players have jumped in my face. pets had the view blocked. suddenly an enemy came out of the corner. or the door closed....

devs will not reinstall self damage. because then nobody will play this rubbish and the game will hardly be played AGAIN.

[Tyreaus]

11 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Primed blast range mods will have their radius reduced to 44% at max,

Kind of surprised they don't go the way of Reach and have it as a flat value. AoE is kind of running into the same problem melee did: weapons with big AoEs to start benefit massively, and the small AoE ones get the short end of the stick. And I feel like the flat value has worked. Sure, you don't get polearms a parsec in length, but it's allowed most everything to have some time in the limelight.

Also, broader picture, I see a bit of hope with this approach. I've seen DE has acted like they snorted a few lines of baking powder when it comes to changes: one thing is a bit off, so they fix it - multiple ways, all at the same time. Corrosive is the big one that comes to mind: it was a bit too much, so they nerfed how much armour it could strip. And because it was so powerful, they buffed Viral to compete with it in the same update. Which ended up making Viral take Corrosive's place, creating the same sort of meta with a different name and a broader effect. Too many knobs getting turned.

So that they're being a bit more trepidatious makes me feel they might have a better handle on that. Sure, it may mean this update falls short of the mark, but at least they're not overshooting it by a few thousand miles and having to shove the ship in reverse. And by the sounds of some replies, it seems they've got a solid plan on how to progress in case it isn't enough. I don't think there was ever any "plan B" in earlier methodologies: they made changes, figured it would go well, and when it didn't, "oh no".

[Tyreaus]

10 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

devs will not reinstall self damage. because then nobody will play this rubbish and the game will hardly be played AGAIN.

Dude/ette, you've got to stop with the hyperbole. The game didn't collapse when it had self-damage. It wouldn't collapse if it came back. Saying otherwise just makes you sound like a crazed street preacher yelling about the end times. And it's a shame when that appearance taints otherwise good points.

Chill, yo.

[0_The_F00l]

I don't really mind if self damage returned, 

Shield gating exists so it is already mitigated.

But there could be some other checks , like limiting the damage to be unmodded.

And any impact with friendly targets would make it go dud. (Like Corinth)

[0_The_F00l]

15 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Kind of surprised they don't go the way of Reach and have it as a flat value. AoE is kind of running into the same problem melee did: weapons with big AoEs to start benefit massively, and the small AoE ones get the short end of the stick. And I feel like the flat value has worked. Sure, you don't get polearms a parsec in length, but it's allowed most everything to have some time in the limelight.

Also, broader picture, I see a bit of hope with this approach. I've seen DE has acted like they snorted a few lines of baking powder when it comes to changes: one thing is a bit off, so they fix it - multiple ways, all at the same time. Corrosive is the big one that comes to mind: it was a bit too much, so they nerfed how much armour it could strip. And because it was so powerful, they buffed Viral to compete with it in the same update. Which ended up making Viral take Corrosive's place, creating the same sort of meta with a different name and a broader effect. Too many knobs getting turned.

So that they're being a bit more trepidatious makes me feel they might have a better handle on that. Sure, it may mean this update falls short of the mark, but at least they're not overshooting it by a few thousand miles and having to shove the ship in reverse. And by the sounds of some replies, it seems they've got a solid plan on how to progress in case it isn't enough. I don't think there was ever any "plan B" in earlier methodologies: they made changes, figured it would go well, and when it didn't, "oh no".

I really don't mind if they make it fixed value.

But this might make some weapons with very small AoE a little too effective as well depending on the range decided.

This change , if it happens , needs to be paired with LoS checks in order to avoid that.

[(XBOX)K1jker]

No thanks, I prefer seeing more than people spamming E in this game. I'd much rather like their current approach to it. Self damage has no place in Warframe, same with the stamina bar. 

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

5 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

So I would also ask that you do not classify others as selfish just cause you are unable to understand their issues. Not everyone can happily sit in a corner while someone else plays the actual game.

There is a difference between being selfish and requesting things to be fair.

The reasoning that DE gave is well ... perfectly reasonable to me. 

Again , please try to realise there are players with different views than yours. 

I think the request to nerf AoE is selfish on the part of people who want to take away the fun of those using AoE. I understand WHY people want to also have enemies to kill, if someone else is also having fun killing things, but there are OTHER, BETTER ways to address this, than nerfing someone's fun. I have listed quite a few over the years.

* They could add new objectives and mission types where AoE is not advantageous to use.

* They could give simultaneous objectives in multi-player missions (that do not exist in solo missions), that require players go to different areas with their own enemies to deal with.

* They could have a mission type that only sends rare stronger units at you, no hordes, that might have environmental interactions... where you could hack terminals to turn a base's weapons on their own troops, destructable environments, where you drop large things on the enemies... so the damage comes from using the environment and other things than your weapons. It could have spy elements, even horror elements... so you don't want to engage with these enemies on your own. (the Leviathan? enemy in the Anime intro to Stynax could be one such enemy)

See... just takes some creativity. And AoE doesn't have to be touched at all.

[Lutesque]

2 hours ago, gamingchair1121 said:

why are people even against self damage? there should be some amount of risk because you are doing more damage.

Tell you what.... Il accept the Risk of using AoE if the Dumb Ass who Jumps infront Of Me and Blocks my Shots Also Gets Damaged....

There should Risks to not Paying Attention to what your Team Mates Are Doing.... Brain Dead Game Play of Jumping Infront Of your Allies Should Not Be Tolerated....

I'm sure you Agree that's Fair... Right ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

1 hour ago, Krion112 said:

 

2 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Take something like the Zhuge Prime. Acceptable damage, but nothing out of the ordinary. Yet because of the explosion delay, you can tag something like an Osprey, have it charge you, and suddenly you're on death's door as the arrow explodes in your face. Meanwhile, the Acceltra has an arming distance that all but explicitly prevents self-damage. One ends up vastly more dangerous and unpredictable than the other, and it's pretty darn difficult to account for that.

Oh Shy.... Why did you leave us ? 😭....

2 hours ago, Krion112 said:

The Nullifier Field argument is particularly weak; those are highly telegraphed. If a player shot directly at a Nullifier Field, knowing full well they deflect projectiles, then they only have themselves to blame when their own rocket deflects back to them and blows them up. (But again, even Shield Gating would reduce that risk, while still being a detriment)

Telegraphed My Foot.... The freaking Bubble Clip Through Walls and Floors and the Drone on top of them is immune to AoE Damage because "Reasons" assuming you can Even hit all since it Rotates when the Nullifier Rotates.... This a Blatant Double Standard and is the reason why Everybody hates them.

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

Dude/ette, you've got to stop with the hyperbole. The game didn't collapse when it had self-damage.

That's Because Saryn Could Never Damage Herself ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[0_The_F00l]

46 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

I think the request to nerf AoE is selfish on the part of people who want to take away the fun of those using AoE. I understand WHY people want to also have enemies to kill, if someone else is also having fun killing things, but there are OTHER, BETTER ways to address this, than nerfing someone's fun. I have listed quite a few over the years.

* They could add new objectives and mission types where AoE is not advantageous to use.

* They could give simultaneous objectives in multi-player missions (that do not exist in solo missions), that require players go to different areas with their own enemies to deal with.

* They could have a mission type that only sends rare stronger units at you, no hordes, that might have environmental interactions... where you could hack terminals to turn a base's weapons on their own troops, destructable environments, where you drop large things on the enemies... so the damage comes from using the environment and other things than your weapons. It could have spy elements, even horror elements... so you don't want to engage with these enemies on your own. (the Leviathan? enemy in the Anime intro to Stynax could be one such enemy)

See... just takes some creativity. And AoE doesn't have to be touched at all.

So ... make a new game?

They have already started that,

And asking people to make completely new things so that you yourself are inconvenienced, hmm , yeah totally altruistic dude.

You do realize someone is still being impacted no matter the decision , the point is to have as few people be disappointed as possible.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 46 Minuten schrieb (PSN)AyinDygra:

I think the request to nerf AoE is selfish on the part of people who want to take away the fun of those using AoE.

right.......
and these clowns don't even play the game and they cry about everything. just look at their posts........

I can switch to other weapons. just what for? so that my volt on sp is NOT playable at all and after 3-5 seconds I'm lying on the floor against ranged?
because I can hardly do any damage with it... and that with maxed mods and arcanes.

[0_The_F00l]

1 minute ago, Venus-Venera said:

right.......
and these clowns don't even play the game and they cry about everything. just look at their posts........

I can switch to other weapons. just what for? so that my volt on sp is NOT playable at all and after 3-5 seconds I'm lying on the floor against ranged?
because I can hardly do any damage with it... and that with maxed mods and arcanes.

I really think you should get a checkup done , you are not making any sense ,

i dont know if its some translation issue , but most of what you are saying sounds like rubbish or the ramblings of someone that has no idea how to play the game.

 

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

So ... make a new game?

They have already started that,

And asking people to make completely new things so that you yourself are inconvenienced, hmm , yeah totally altruistic dude.

NO.

They already have a few of these things already in the game... I'm hoping Devs see this and say to themselves, "Self, hey, we could use this mechanic in more places, or as the core of a new mission type so people realize we have this sort of thing already. We'll have to make completing that objective as efficient as killing hordes of enemies, reward-time-wise."

We already have Spy missions, where the mission objectives are hacking, where killing enemies really isn't the "most effective" way to accomplish the mission.

We already  have Assassination missions. The goal in this mission type is not to kill all the fodder along the way (you can bullet jump past nearly all the enemies on the way to a boss)... it's to kill the boss. And most bosses have weakpoints that actively deny AoE damage, such as Sargas Ruk, and Vay Hek and Lephantis. Wow...

We already have Disruption missions. If they just removed the hordes (that don't matter anyway) and just sent the Demolyst out, that's the sort of thing I'm talking about, except, there could be terminals you could hack to block their progress and trap them in a room where you then destroy something on the ceiling to drop on them to destroy them... or break away the floor so they're sent onto a longer path to reach their destination...

We already have ... During the Orb Mother heist missions, there is at least one point where there are 2 simultaneous objectives that must be completed at the same time.

I mean, this isn't super hard to imagine. It's not even creating NEW things to Warframe, entirely.

[0_The_F00l]

20 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

NO.

They already have a few of these things already in the game... I'm hoping Devs see this and say to themselves, "Self, hey, we could use this mechanic in more places, or as the core of a new mission type so people realize we have this sort of thing already. We'll have to make completing that objective as efficient as killing hordes of enemies, reward-time-wise."

We already have Spy missions, where the mission objectives are hacking, where killing enemies really isn't the "most effective" way to accomplish the mission.

We already  have Assassination missions. The goal in this mission type is not to kill all the fodder along the way (you can bullet jump past nearly all the enemies on the way to a boss)... it's to kill the boss. And most bosses have weakpoints that actively deny AoE damage, such as Sargas Ruk, and Vay Hek and Lephantis. Wow...

We already have Disruption missions. If they just removed the hordes (that don't matter anyway) and just sent the Demolyst out, that's the sort of thing I'm talking about, except, there could be terminals you could hack to block their progress and trap them in a room where you then destroy something on the ceiling to drop on them to destroy them... or break away the floor so they're sent onto a longer path to reach their destination...

We already have ... During the Orb Mother heist missions, there is at least one point where there are 2 simultaneous objectives that must be completed at the same time.

I mean, this isn't super hard to imagine. It's not even creating NEW things to Warframe, entirely.

You are going on a parallel tangent , a tangent with which i personally have no problem i actually encourage more game modes.

besides if it already exists in the game why isnt it working?

You are basically talking about assassination missions ,

No matter what you choose you will never be in a position where "killing as many enemies as possible " is a bad choice, as you gain resources and other drops,

Sargas ruk , Vay hek and lephantis is actually a good example, but those are 3 missions (all of which are assassination) where the rewards are now ... well obsolete but other than those 3 there are still many more assassinations where the AoE weapons still wipe the floor of everything. So you really want 90% of weapons to be used in less than 5% of content ?

 

Getting back to Our original topic of discussion ,

 

It is you considering the reasoning of the Devs (automation , dominance , disruption) in poor taste for the changes to AoE , Changes which are very subtle and should not even impact most players, only those that have gotten used to a "sedentary" playstyle.

all while you enjoy providing "support" , i fail to see how you will be impacted in the slightest.

can you explain to me how exactly you provide support? and in which game modes do you normally play?

It may just be that we run in different circles and can not see eye to eye.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 24 Minuten schrieb (PSN)AyinDygra:

NO.

They already have a few of these things already in the game... I'm hoping Devs see this and say to themselves, "Self, hey, we could use this mechanic in more places, or as the core of a new mission type so people realize we have this sort of thing already. We'll have to make completing that objective as efficient as killing hordes of enemies, reward-time-wise."

We already have Spy missions, where the mission objectives are hacking, where killing enemies really isn't the "most effective" way to accomplish the mission.

We already  have Assassination missions. The goal in this mission type is not to kill all the fodder along the way (you can bullet jump past nearly all the enemies on the way to a boss)... it's to kill the boss. And most bosses have weakpoints that actively deny AoE damage, such as Sargas Ruk, and Vay Hek and Lephantis. Wow...

We already have Disruption missions. If they just removed the hordes (that don't matter anyway) and just sent the Demolyst out, that's the sort of thing I'm talking about, except, there could be terminals you could hack to block their progress and trap them in a room where you then destroy something on the ceiling to drop on them to destroy them... or break away the floor so they're sent onto a longer path to reach their destination...

We already have ... During the Orb Mother heist missions, there is at least one point where there are 2 simultaneous objectives that must be completed at the same time.

I mean, this isn't super hard to imagine. It's not even creating NEW things to Warframe, entirely.

i think popular aoe weapon is actually only good for low lvl ext/cap/resq relics. in other missions an aoe warframe like saryn brings much more. and it benefits more from fast attack weapons or something like ignis wraith.

because then she does absurd damage in 3-5 rooms and people swim in resources or def mission lasts less than 3-4 min.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Getting back to Our original topic of discussion ,

I consider adding things where AoE is not the most effective tactic available preferable to nerfing AoE weapons, as a fundamental reasoning point to begin from, as opposed to the Devs' prioritizing "Automation, Dominance, or Disruption"... which I don't agree are all that important to consider when talking about nerfing things.

1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

It is you considering the reasoning of the Devs (automation , dominance , disruption) in poor taste for the changes to AoE , Changes which are very subtle and shuld not even impact most players,

while you enjoy providing "support" ,

can you explain to me how exactly you provide support? and in which game modes do you normally play?

It may just be that we run in different circles and can not see eye to eye.

In the past, when they nerfed things like the Catchmoon, it's been anything but subtle. It's been more like using  a sledgehammer to kill a fly. I don't even actively use my Catchmoon anymore... it's just plastered to my hip as a decoration now. (I don't have a Kuva Nukor or Tenet Cycron to replace it. and those are the only 2 other weapons in the game worth putting in that slot, IMO) So, when I see nerfs coming, all I see is things being made functionally obsolete, just with kinder packaging and sweeter wording.

Places where I enjoy providing support, rather than killing:
* Defense: I'll bring Wisp along, and put down her motes. Whether I kill anything or not, I know I've contributed to everything in the mission.
* Rescue: Doesn't matter what frame I'm on... when I'm leading the rescue target to extraction, as long as they live, we're good. I don't bother killing stuff on my way out... everyone else can go crazy with their AoE. If I happen to bring Wisp, obviously, the motes will help slightly. If I have the Vazarin school, I can make the rescue NPC invincible or heal them fast, regardless of my frame or weapons.
* Hijack... I just go Inaros, so I can sit on the moving whatever like a living battery. Everyone else can go crazy killing stuff, I know I've done my part.
* All missions: I seek out Ayatan Statues whenever I'm rushing through missions, (on fast missions I won't go out of my way), since I've memorized many locations where they can appear. People always like to get a free statue along the way.

I can list more eventually, if need be.

The missions I play primarily:
Capture to crack relics.
Spy to level my gear.
Anything that is required for syndicate medallion hunts.
Railjack with a friend, farming the last pieces of Carmine Penta and the Ambassador.
 

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

15 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

(automation , dominance , disruption)

I realized I sort of didn't focus on this part of it.

Automation: I can "sort of" understand where they're coming from here, but I've never personally encountered anyone who has been AFK, just using a Wuclone to play for them... just hasn't ever happened.

Dominance: I NEVER support this as a reason to nerf something. There are reasons (especially in Warframe) for something to see high usage, and it's usually not because of its stats. In my experience, it's usually due to convenience and how fun it makes the game to play that encourages a high adoption rate, and then the game systems inherent to Warframe cement its use, due to investment cost (sinking reactors/catalysts and forma into it, with all the time required to re-level it each time), and limited inventory slots for all the gear, so people who don't spend plat on slots will limit their inventory only to the most effective things in their arsenal, instead of experimenting and playing around with a wider variety of things - (that was me for a year, so don't go saying people are all plat-rich and have plenty of slots.)

Disruption: In this case, as I've presented my case, I'd rather see more variety in mission objectives, so AoE isn't disrupting everyone's fun, because all missions wouldn't be best served by people killing all the hordes real fast with their AoE. And as I've noted above, I don't find my gameplay "disrupted" by people completing the mission objectives. Especially early on in my gaming, when I opened my squads up to the public, instead of running solo, I welcomed any and all help from people who had much stronger weaponry and warframes than myself. There was absolutely no "disruption" caused by people with all that great stuff.

[Circle_of_Psi]

15 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I do think LoS and self stagger is still something that should be considered , but we shall see.

I think this should be added IMO.