AoE Changes - subtle but impactful? [post Devstream discussion]

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Cargan2016 said:

would be much more effective to just revert the self damage change and make people have to go back to being carefull where they aimed thier aoe weapons.  and would 100% adress the issue that caused them to want to nerf them to begin with.  and that revision is likely to be happening as I dont see the first set of changes to have the desired effect as too many ways to get arround the ammo change with consumables or dispensary/ lavos being able to transmute ammo into universal

the old self damage system did that already

The self damage was removed bcos there was a meta like chroma or trin that could use it for even greater exploit. But a diminishing range of AOE upon quick multiple shots is what we need right now. 

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

1 hour ago, (PSN)ATreidezz said:

The self damage was removed bcos there was a meta lile chroma or trin that could use it for even greater exploit. But a diminishing range of AOE upon quick multiple shots is what we need right now. 

they already said if current ammo change and removing the headshot bonus from aoe doesnt fix its on list to come back

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

2 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I'm open to exploring the best ways to reduce the problem, but a hard no on anything related to Stamina.

Stamina is just a term, you can change it with other terms like charges or ammo. So AOE range has ammo or charges on itself. Meaning it can be depleted. But can also be reloaded/recharged overtime. 

[Proscriptor]

it just makes no sense from an in-world standpoint. what happens to the rockets in your magazine so that they lose ther explosive potential?

[Venus-Venera]

and why rockets when rubico prime does more than 200k damage instantaneously....

[Proscriptor]

Just now, Venus-Venera said:

and why rockets when rubico prime does more than 200k damage instantaneously....

this isn't about what's better, rubico or aoe guns, but about whether aoe guns should have stamina

[Venus-Venera]

Gerade eben schrieb Proscriptor:

this isn't about what's better, rubico or aoe guns, but about whether aoe guns should have stamina

I have already written about this.... there are already very good weapons without ammunition...

[Proscriptor]

Just now, Venus-Venera said:

I have already written about this.... there are already very good weapons without ammunition...

that has nothing to do with the aoe weapon stamina idea tho

[Venus-Venera]

Gerade eben schrieb Proscriptor:

that has nothing to do with the aoe weapon stamina idea tho

just not. but if you mean...
and something similar has already been implemented and still doesn't work! we see that in the game too.

[Vortex]

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

14 minutes ago, Proscriptor said:

it just makes no sense from an in-world standpoint. what happens to the rockets in your magazine so that they lose ther explosive potential?

What happens when you empty a magazine in your weapon? You can no longer shoot, but of course you can still reload so you can shoot again, this is the general idea with the AOE range as "ammo" or "stamina". Continuous use deplete it, reload/recharge is needed to gain its maximum range potential again. 

[Proscriptor]

it just makes no sense

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

Just now, Proscriptor said:

it just makes no sense

Think of AOE range in my idea like old Void strike. You need to charge to get max damage output. And you can only use it a few times before you need to charge it again, change the word damage with range and thats the general idea. 

[0_The_F00l]

36 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

On the point of the Catchmoon nerf, since other people have been arguing points about it:

I never said the size of the projectile was changed (while it very well may have been), but that was what initially caused me to like it. The nerf was the effective range of the weapon which essentially made it melee range, like Destiny shotguns. I melee primarily anyway, and my melee is stronger than my Catchmoon... so why in the world would I choose to shoot a weaker weapon at enemies instead of swing my melee that I have fun doing?

Yes, I have the range extending thing in the weapon's "exilus" slot. I still don't use it. It doesn't help make my gameplay any more fun. I prefer melee. It's not better than that for how I play. Thus, I don't use the Catchmoon. Nerf accomplished: I don't use it anymore.

 

EDIT:
The niche cases in which I pull out my catchmoon include:
Arbitration, to knock out the drones in large groups of enemies, due to its punchthrough and how enemies bunched up around it can block my movement into melee range.
Rarely, I'll use it to kill an Ancient Healer that also has a mass of infested around it which block my approach with melee. I mostly just use aerial slam attacks in those cases... but I thought I'd list it here, because it's "a" use for the catchmoon.

Otherwise... absolutely useless to me and how I play.

 

You play as you feel fit mate , as i said , i personally have nothing against your preferences. Glad to know there is no confusion with regards to what actually changed with the catch moon , hate to start an argument on misunderstandings.

But if you dont actually like to use the weapons that are part of the topic (ranged weapons) , and only rarely use them , i am not sure i can take your opinions with much seriousness. 

I dont mean that as an insult , my apologies if it comes out that way,

[Numerounius]

45 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

if you don't want to understand it, it's up to you. I don't mind.
the fact is that it does not work and cannot work.

Can you please provide some context, I have no idea what "it" is referring to or why you are bringing up Kuva Bramma on Steel Path in relation to my comment. Hence why I made my reply cause I found it weird you were replying to my agreement rather than the initial suggestion.

45 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

the fact is that it does not work and cannot work. Of course you don't want to provide proof.

Providing proof isn't going to do anything if you won't elaborate and I don't know exactly what "proof" you are looking for cause again, you aren't providing any context.

 

[0_The_F00l]

Hmm , not sure on the stamina ,

Feels kinda like a sniper option , like reduced fire rate for more range (but less damage) and higher fire rate for lower area (but more damage),

Could even tie in with negative ammo efficiency or something,

We have that on some specific launcher style snipers, it could work i guess.

[maru7w]

The reason tennos use AOE.

I'm sure it's because the cosmetics game got quite insane, making your warframe cover almost all of the screen, and with no camera options plus damage numbers covering the player's crosshair for whatever reason. It's easier to just use AOE weapons.

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

5 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

you won't get far without a top aoe weapon. you will run into problems very quickly and too many missions will be unplayable.
and even if you manage to get a maxed khora you will hardly win a mob def on sp vs ranged. you will either get energy drained, a nulli with lots of enemies will remove your 4 skill or too many enemies will shoot at you/obj from long range.

For me the whole thing is an epic fail. because even a child would understand that the game will hardly be playable...

Not True at all I stopped playing with AOE weapons mid range Iver gone almost exclusively standard shotgun with no aoe in all my endgame content even SP survival endurance runs

[R4bbit0le]

Just now, maru7w said:

The reason tennos use AOE.

I'm sure it's because the cosmetics game got quite insane, making your warframe cover almost all of the screen, and with no camera options plus damage numbers covering the player's crosshair for whatever reason. It's easier to just use AOE weapons.

Field of view can be adjusted as well as the damage numbers displayed. Additionally, precision weapons have more zoom than AoE weapons and Zoom is a weapon stat.

The reason tennos use AoE it's because it's capable of killing the maximum amount of enemies with the minimum amount of effort. And that is okay, META will always exist.

But DE always made changes that push variety. I don't think AoE weapons are going anywhere, they will still be a big part of everyday gameplay but there will be room for more than bramma, zarr and ignis and using them will require more thinking. 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb maru7w:

The reason tennos use AOE.

I'm sure it's because the cosmetics game got quite insane, making your warframe cover almost all of the screen, and with no camera options plus damage numbers covering the player's crosshair for whatever reason. It's easier to just use AOE weapons.

not really. because most aoe weapons are played with black color. otherwise i wouldn't see anything . example would be weapons like bubonico.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

To be fair most of the fixes for aoe seem like half measures when the real solution would be to bring back some self damage to aoe weapons to make them a risk / reward situation again.

The reason most ppl didn't use zarr and Lenz before was because you kept oneshotting yourself. Now if they could just cap the self damage to a reasonable amount, it would become a skill based weapon where you need to actually aim that thing.

Also not a big fan of changes to the entire ammo economy for the whole game to offset an aoe meta. Just like the annoying self stagger added to everything including some operator amps was a crappy solution to the fact ppl were complaining about aoe weapons oneshotting you (just cap the damage to a reasonable amount).

Worse part about doing ammo based nerfs is you make these weapons less versatile.. Like how can you sustain usage of your primary during boss fights, acolytes, Liches and sisters etc. You rely on kills and rgn for your ammo packs after all ...

Feels like the ammo economy nerfs will barely make a dent on the problem for regular missions, but will make these weapons useless for any boss encounters without adds spawning.

[_LotusPrime_]

@Venus-Venera when they nerf aoe they're also making lots of frames unplayable at high levels but ye most dont get it , they say 'just shield gate abuse lmao' when 20 grineer with hit scan weapons hit from every corner ... 

If they would nerf aoe people would just go to beam weapons or punch thru weapons with grouping wf abilities or the new spoiler mode group up thing , its like maybe killing enemies once at a time with a sniper is fun ?? but you ave tons in missions and they respawn , unless the game changes from ground up it becomes a chore to go 1 by one , it loses the appeal real quick so i agree you on that 

maybe people dont take a liking at your wording but what you basically imply is very solid imo , theres some forum members that wont stop mob mentality until the game becomes another coridor shooter 

edit; yes this account is fresh but this isnt my main one been in wf for almost 5 years

[Venus-Venera]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb _LotusPrime_:

@Venus-Venera when they nerf aoe they're also making lots of frames unplayable at high levels but ye most dont get it , they say 'just shield gate abuse lmao' when 20 grineer with hit scan weapons hit from every corner ... 

If they would nerf aoe people would just go to beam weapons or punch thru weapons with grouping wf abilities or the new spoiler mode group up thing , its like maybe killing enemies once at a time with a sniper is fun ?? but you ave tons in missions and they respawn , unless the game changes from ground up it becomes a chore to go 1 by one , it loses the appeal real quick so i agree you on that 

maybe people dont take a liking at your wording but what you basically imply is very solid imo , theres some forum members that wont stop mob mentality until the game becomes another coridor shooter 

edit; yes this account is fresh but this isnt my main one been in wf for almost 5 years

I say that all the time too!
because I want to try something new and realize very quickly that the enemies are doing too much damage. and low armor warframe is almost instant dead.

and it's not about something like mag or gyre... even harrow prime constantly died on sp in void/lua etc mission after 3-5 seconds. and he had kuva zar with usable heat proc and max range. nothing worked here without 3 maxed umbra.

of course I can be calm now. because i've been mr32 for a while and i've been playing since 2013. so i have more than enough opportunities to play high content very comfortably.

but it's primarily about new players and my friends. I mostly only play in pubs. and new players have great difficulty even with normal eximus...
and in my opinion the devs will dig another grave and frustrate a lot of players. because i'm sorry to meet good people and see that they haven't logged in for 2-3 months...

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

9 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

I disagree, although I can see why you would say that (balance mechanic).

I think self stagger should have a way to be negated, but only via Cautious Shot. SF/PSF should not cover self stagger induced by explosive weapons in my opinion.

Good idea on both but I'd still hold back from full negation. Rhino aside, I think it's healthier overall to have some sort of pausing reaction to the blasts. DE had Tue right idea with the stagger system and shouldn't allow a direct blast to be ignored. I doesn't look nor feel right to me. 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

It's silly to me that of all the changes we're getting in this update people laser focus the one thing they don't like.  I get that's generally how people behave but still.  You need to look at the summary of all the changes as a single total package.  The devs have basically made armor much less effective.  This boosts a lot of frames viability in much more difficult content.  Having more frames be viable in that content means you have new things to use against enemies to make them easier to deal with.  Then you combine that with the insanity that is the headshot buff and weapon swap speed and you're now putting out a LOT more damage.  All this to mean the player should be at the same level if not stronger at mobbing in hard content compared to currently.

You just won't be able to point and click a hallway as much anymore.  Oh well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯