Upcoming headshot multiplier change from x2 to x3 is too much

[Silligoose]

I watched the Devstream 163 recently and was especially interested in the proposed changes to balance regarding weapons, specifically single target weapons vs radial AoE. One of the ideas/proposed changes that was discussed, is a cause for concern, namely, the boost to damage from headshots.

I 100% understand having mechanics in Warframe that rewards skill, of which there are many. I greatly appreciate having those options in the game, as I believe it rewards a players' improvement in skill and I agree that headshots should do more damage than non-weakspot hits, but the x1.5 - x2 multiplier is right on that sweet spot and changing that to x3 is simply too much:

DE, you already have problems balancing the game due to the massive amount of damage potential granted via various mechanics, to the extent that you have not only had to use damage attenuation formulas to try and reduce that damage potential, but you've actually had to go back and redo the damage attenuation formulas in the past, because you weren't able to maintain balance due to introducing greater damage multipliers.

Continually following this pattern of "granting" higher damage multipliers that you don't actually want to grant and then combating that with "behind the scenes nerfs" nerfs via damage attenuation formulas, then introducing even greater damage potential, but then also reworking damage attenuation multipliers to combat the new, higher levels of potential damage, is madness. Not only are you creating double work, triple work, or even more in the future for yourselves, but you are creating an environment that breeds negative player sentiment and distrust: Damage attenuation already causes confusion and frustration amongst players, which was readily seen when you reworked Lich damage attenuation. Beyond that, it is infuriating to go out with a loadout that is supposed to x 5times better, but only does x2.3 times better. It is infuriating when hitting weakspots that is supposed to grant x2 damage, giving only x1.5 in actual play.

As it stands right now, if one has a weapon that does 5k DPS, invests heavily into it to increase that DPS to 25k and improves in tactics and skill to hit headshots, one expects the weapon to do x10 times better with a DPS of 50k. In reality, one doesn't get 50k against priority targets such as Demolishers, but only 10.95k. Instead of an x10 times the increase in damage output, it is only a x2.7 improvement. These are the actual numbers when applied to the formula as seen on Demolshers/Demolysts.

How can you think this is a good system? How can you expect players to have trust in the game, when the game isn't giving them the purported return in investment when it actually matters?

Continually increasing damage multipliers in this fashion is unneeded, is going to cause further imbalances in enemy durability vs player damage output, is going to make it harder for you to balance content and is most likely going to lead to you having to rework past work again, since going down this road of increasing player damage output to marked degrees such as this is going to render DA formulas outdared and ineffective, again.

I urge you to reconsider increasing another damage boost and instead spending the time and resources to address current damage boosts that lead to things like having to use damage attenuation in the first place, so that the DA formula system can be phased out. The game will be better and healthier for it.

[gamingchair1121]

headshot multiplier isnt the problem its damage attenuation

[cute_moth.npc]

2 minutes ago, gamingchair1121 said:

headshot multiplier isnt the problem its damage attenuation

I think that's their exact point though.

They are saying that unchecked additions to power are what lead to things like damage attenuation being added / intensified and that this is a pathway to just getting more of that, with the developers having to continually rely on cheesy tricks like this and put in tons of work to create gameplay because player power is just too high to do it otherwise. 

I don't know if a headshot multiplier is really the most egregious thing personally, but I do feel like it's very true that they introduce some kind of sickeningly out of place thing like Arquebex and Kuva weapons with arcanes on them and then literally have to add damage reduction to deal with it for example. It does make a ton of work, but that's a consequence of ignoring outliers and trying to fix them via proxy. 

[Lutesque]

16 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Not only are you creating double work, triple work, or even more in the future for yourselves

Actually they are Not....

The whole Reason they are Adding this Multiplier in the first place is Precisely because they don't want to do the Actual Work of Not Making Warframe so Focused on Killing as the only means of making Progress..... That's why they are Nerfing the exact Same Tools that the game is Designed Around and that's why they are Adding a Headshot Multiplier that's Going to Do Nothing for Single Target Weapons..... Attempting to actually Utilize this change is only Going to Slow you down because Your initial Impression that Warframe Rewards Skill is Actually Incorrect. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Whether or Not you Get Rewarded in Warframe is Entirely Bases On Luck or on How Rich you are....

Headshots are not going to Get you Slots and Potatoes... Headshots are not going to get you Fancy Pants cosmetics.... Headshots are not going to get you Arcane Energize....

If you want those.... You gotta Either Get Lucky or Be Ready to Pay Up....

16 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Beyond that, it is infuriating to go out with a loadout that is supposed to x 5times better, but only does x2.3 times better. It is infuriating when hitting weakspots that is supposed to grant x2 damage, giving only x1.5 in actual play.

Doesn't this Contradict the whole point you were trying to make on the First Place 🤔 ?

16 hours ago, Silligoose said:

How can you think this is a good system?

They don't Have to play it.... And even when they do They can play it in Dev Mode with As Many Hacks and Cheats as they like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

13 hours ago, cute_moth.npc said:

They are saying that unchecked additions to power are what lead to things like damage attenuation being added / intensified and that this is a pathway to just getting more of that, with the developers having to continually rely on cheesy tricks like this and put in tons of work to create gameplay because player power is just too high to do it otherwise. 

Except as you saw most recently... The majority of players aren't even utilizing this So Called Power.... They just wanted to Monkey around.... So now Monkey is Getting The Axe not for being Powerful... But for being Popular...

So yeah.... Damage Attenuation is the Problem.... Those players were not Breaking the Game when they were Monkeying Around....

You know what the Issue is here.... It's that both you and @Silligoose think Damage Attenuation was Created as some sort of Balancing Mechanic... It's just like with Rivens and The Helminth System.... Anybody with a Half A Brain knows these things were not Created to Balance the Game....

In the Case of Rivens you can't Even Disagree Because even Steve never mentioned the word Balance when they were introducing them in the Dev Stream.... He Specifically said they were created to incenvize using old forgotten Equipment....

SUprise suprise... It's another Change Based on Usage Stats.... 

AT this point it's just pointless to be Believe Warframe is About Actual Balance.... Sounds like a Recipe for Dissapoimtment if you ask me...

13 hours ago, cute_moth.npc said:

 

I don't know if a headshot multiplier is really the most egregious thing personally, but I do feel like it's very true that they introduce some kind of sickeningly out of place thing like Arquebex and Kuva weapons with arcanes on them and then literally have to add damage reduction to deal with it for example. It does make a ton of work, but that's a consequence of ignoring outliers and trying to fix them via proxy. 

See.... Now you're Starting To Get It 😉....

All that's left is for you to Accept that Proxy Bandaids are all we are going to Get instead of Actual Fixes.... In Any Case DE isn't Going to Act on Any Feedback until the Update Comes out And Forces us to Experience the Things we warn them about First Hand.... So yeah... Nothing you can do about it until A few Weeks After the Update. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[cute_moth.npc]

On 2022-08-28 at 1:50 AM, Lutesque said:

Actually they are Not....

The whole Reason they are Adding this Multiplier in the first place is Precisely because they don't want to do the Actual Work of Not Making Warframe so Focused on Killing as the only means of making Progress..... That's why they are Nerfing the exact Same Tools that the game is Designed Around and that's why they are Adding a Headshot Multiplier that's Going to Do Nothing for Single Target Weapons..... Attempting to actually Utilize this change is only Going to Slow you down because Your initial Impression that Warframe Rewards Skill is Actually Incorrect. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Whether or Not you Get Rewarded in Warframe is Entirely Bases On Luck or on How Rich you are....

Headshots are not going to Get you Slots and Potatoes... Headshots are not going to get you Fancy Pants cosmetics.... Headshots are not going to get you Arcane Energize....

If you want those.... You gotta Either Get Lucky or Be Ready to Pay Up....

Doesn't this Contradict the whole point you were trying to make on the First Place 🤔 ?

They don't Have to play it.... And even when they do They can play it in Dev Mode with As Many Hacks and Cheats as they like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Except as you saw most recently... The majority of players aren't even utilizing this So Called Power.... They just wanted to Monkey around.... So now Monkey is Getting The Axe not for being Powerful... But for being Popular...

So yeah.... Damage Attenuation is the Problem.... Those players were not Breaking the Game when they were Monkeying Around....

You know what the Issue is here.... It's that both you and @Silligoose think Damage Attenuation was Created as some sort of Balancing Mechanic... It's just like with Rivens and The Helminth System.... Anybody with a Half A Brain knows these things were not Created to Balance the Game....

In the Case of Rivens you can't Even Disagree Because even Steve never mentioned the word Balance when they were introducing them in the Dev Stream.... He Specifically said they were created to incenvize using old forgotten Equipment....

SUprise suprise... It's another Change Based on Usage Stats.... 

AT this point it's just pointless to be Believe Warframe is About Actual Balance.... Sounds like a Recipe for Dissapoimtment if you ask me...

See.... Now you're Starting To Get It 😉....

All that's left is for you to Accept that Proxy Bandaids are all we are going to Get instead of Actual Fixes.... In Any Case DE isn't Going to Act on Any Feedback until the Update Comes out And Forces us to Experience the Things we warn them about First Hand.... So yeah... Nothing you can do about it until A few Weeks After the Update. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You're right, Rivens and Helminth system were patch up band aids that they created to try and buff weak stuff without getting into it on an individual level.

Damage attenuation WAS created as a game balancing mechanic. How do you think they got Arquebex into Railjack because players were crying for Necramechs in normal missions without just letting it dookdookdook away the Lich in a split second?

I like how you think I didn't get it in one of your edits, and then said "see now you're starting to get it" when REPLYING TO ONE POST.

Come on Lutesque you're usually really entertaining but this one is flat -_-

 

[Rantear]

Now if only they'd increase head hitboxes in size.

It currently feels way too hard to consistently land headshots with automatic weapon. Especially with every shot causing staggers, and enemies generally liking to shuffle around without ever stoping.

And that only applies to Grineer units.

Cause we also have Drones, Moas, Racknoids, Hyenas, Infested, Legates.... (Rollers, lol)

I honestly don't see how this change will really benefit anyone who's not playing Limbo, Harrow or Mag.

[Frendh]

2 hours ago, Rantear said:

Now if only they'd increase head hitboxes in size.

I can't really tell if the hitboxes are accurate or not. But at least I see no reason to make hitboxes larger than the actual head.  Something that annoys me though is that I can't make headshots through Grineer back of the neck armor with punchthrough.

[Tiltskillet]

I can't help it--I'm super excited to abuse this with gas and electric procs.

2 hours ago, Rantear said:

I honestly don't see how this change will really benefit anyone who's not playing Limbo, Harrow or Mag.

That is crazy talk, afaic.  If you meant something like "It's not going to bring precision weapons up to par with powerful AoE weapons in popular content" I'd agree.  But it's going to be a huge benefit to people who can aim a bit and aren't already killing everything in one shot.

[Lutesque]

5 hours ago, cute_moth.npc said:

Damage attenuation WAS created as a game balancing mechanic.

Nope.....

Damage Attenuation is just Invulnerability Phases in Disguise.... It was Created to drag missions on for longer....

5 hours ago, cute_moth.npc said:

Come on Lutesque you're usually really entertaining but this one is flat -_-

Well then maybe someone else will amuse you then ... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

I can't help it--I'm super excited to abuse this with gas and electric procs.

That is crazy talk, afaic.  If you meant something like "It's not going to bring precision weapons up to par with powerful AoE weapons in popular content" I'd agree.  But it's going to be a huge benefit to people who can aim a bit and aren't already killing everything in one shot.

It's Not.... Like I said.... Attempting to Actually Utilize this Change is only going to make Things Worse.... It Takes time to Aim.... It Takes no Time at All to Press 4....

While you're Busy Trying to Give your Enemies Hair Cuts, Someone Else is just going to Steel Your Kills Any Way.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Rantear]

1 час назад, Tiltskillet сказал:

If you meant something like "It's not going to bring precision weapons up to par with powerful AoE weapons in popular content" 

No, I did mean it in a more general way, but I also did have it in mind as well.
Yeah, it will help newer players with steel path, and maybe completely new players with Eximus units, if they can stay alive long enough to aim every shot while Eximus spam their abilites that is.
But overall, it won't change anything outside of those cases, and outside of using before mentioned frames. (and maybe temporal blast)

I don't see myself aiming at heads of trash mobs that we're meant to kill by the hundreds, when the game actively punishes such a playstyle, and has no mechanics to make it more reasonable to get headshots in the first place, and when there's so many enemy types with very little heads in strange places.
Especially when most of the time I'm actually using our superior mobility to try and dodge as much incoming fire as possible.

 

2 часа назад, Frendh сказал:

I can't really tell if the hitboxes are accurate or not. But at least I see no reason to make hitboxes larger than the actual head.  Something that annoys me though is that I can't make headshots through Grineer back of the neck armor with punchthrough.

My reasoning for wanting that, is that compared to other horde shooters that I've played, at usual engagement distances in respective games, enemies in Warframe have multitudes smaller silhouettes.
As well as the fact that players here are very mobile, enemies have very chaotic movements, and also get staggered by almost every shot which make their movements even more unpredictable, and that even when you do take time to aim, headshots seem to be very picky for a lot of enemy types.

[Pakaku]

5 hours ago, Rantear said:

Now if only they'd increase head hitboxes in size.

It currently feels way too hard to consistently land headshots with automatic weapon. Especially with every shot causing staggers, and enemies generally liking to shuffle around without ever stoping.

And that only applies to Grineer units.

Cause we also have Drones, Moas, Racknoids, Hyenas, Infested, Legates.... (Rollers, lol)

I honestly don't see how this change will really benefit anyone who's not playing Limbo, Harrow or Mag.

I think the initial headshots are a little too easy to hit... It's annoying when procs knock them around, but for the most part the animations are predictable

Electric might be worth modding for, the procs force them to stand still and expose their heads, even shield lancers. Cold is also good at slowing them down. The only question is do you want to rethink your builds or not.

 

3 hours ago, Frendh said:

I can't really tell if the hitboxes are accurate or not. But at least I see no reason to make hitboxes larger than the actual head.  Something that annoys me though is that I can't make headshots through Grineer back of the neck armor with punchthrough.

One of the reasons I find headshotting a little too easy is because they just seem weird and disjointed. Lancers seem to have a weird headshot hitbox that sticks out in front of their faces, and I can manage to "headshot" around their neck armour by aiming at that invisible space... not completely from behind, but at least from their back angles

[Tiltskillet]

14 minutes ago, Rantear said:

don't see myself aiming at heads of trash mobs that we're meant to kill by the hundreds

Individually aiming at heads of trash mobs, no.  Or anything that one expects to delete in one body shot.  But not even the more durable bad guys?  You specifically mentioned automatics in the post I quoted, so the "aiming" that's required there is more of the "point weapon in general direction, put reticle at roughly head level, pull trigger, wave weapon to taste" variety.   

When I'm using bullet hoses or beam weapons against hordes, I practically live by that strategy.  Lots of headshots, way better kps than not bothering.  A x3 multiplier is going to rawk for me.

Again though, I'm not suggesting Kuva Karak and the like are start going to be the meta in capture missions.  Just that it's going to make a big difference for people who go against the flow  and already use precision weapons.  And it should be legitimately huge against demolysts and other mini-bosses and/or in high level endless.

[Proscriptor]

^ +1

just take something like ignis wraith, you'll immediately notice a huge difference when the changes hit

[Tiltskillet]

6 minutes ago, Proscriptor said:

^ +1

just take something like ignis wraith, you'll immediately notice a huge difference when the changes hit

Amprex is going to be madness.

 

[Proscriptor]

now imagine vermisplicer

[Rantear]

2 минуты назад, Proscriptor сказал:

^ +1

just take something like ignis wraith, you'll immediately notice a huge difference when the changes hit

Lol, you'll notice a huge difference with Ignis alright.

Actually interesting thought, it does not list it's damage as AoE on the wiki, despite being one, will it also lose its ability to deal headshot damage, or will it get a pass because it's a beam 🤔

 

6 минут назад, Tiltskillet сказал:

But not even the more durable bad guys?

Strictly speaking about what I'd aim at:

Legates only if I use a tank frame, or an invisible one, Zariman is very punishing to fragile frames, so usually going for body shots while jumping around is the safer bet.

I also try with Centurions from time to time, but they're to jumpy, so it's nearly impossible, they also hit like a truck, so I mostly run away and just fire in their general direction.

Eximus units always were way more chill with their movements, so humanoid Eximus are obviously a go to, especially now that they're actually immune to staggers. But they're also pretty much trash mobs in majority of the game, so there's no real need need for headshots.

And now's the time for realisation that they are like 1% of all the enemies that we encounter. 3x headshot multipler, much impact, such wow, lol.

 

There's also Ancients, since they actually have a reasonable hitbox and their head is very close to their center of mass, with them change will actually matter.

Acolytes and Demolysts are very rare enemies to encounter, and they're always CC'd, so they don't really count. And they're also usually way more efficient to kill with abilites or melee. Liches are also in this category, aside from abilites and melee bit.

Angels are a given, you clear the area before engaging them, and they're pretty much harmless, so there's no downside to aiming

Oh and Deimos Jugulus and Saxum, but not Carnis, those are way too twitchy, but that's a dead content island.

41 минуту назад, Tiltskillet сказал:

You specifically mentioned automatics in the post I quoted, so the "aiming" that's required there is more of the "point weapon in general direction, put reticle at roughly head level, pull trigger, wave weapon to taste" variety.   

IMHO, with weapon bloom, additional hip fire inaccuracy, and recoil that sometimes feels way too extreme, you lose way more damage than you gain due to missed shots.

You could put mods that increase accuracy on the weapon, but you'd need to use exilus adapter and extra forma for that, restricting your build further, or replace a damage mod. That is pretty much game punishing you for going for that playstyle.

Unless you use weapons with perfect hip-fire accuracy that is, which I don't know if there's many of.

 

16 минут назад, Pakaku сказал:

when procs knock them around

It's not only procs tho.

Enemies just get staggered all the time, from the damage itself, like when they lose balance and almost fall over, and other similar animations.

39 минут назад, Pakaku сказал:

Electric might be worth modding for, the procs force them to stand still and expose their heads, even shield lancers. Cold is also good at slowing them down. The only question is do you want to rethink your builds or not.

That sounds like punishing myself for no reason.
I'd prefer just using elements that'll give +75% extra damage, go for bodyshots without risking missed shots due to weapon's spread or unrealistic recoil, and without exposing myself to enemy fire due to slower movement when aiming.

[selig_fay]

13 hours ago, Rantear said:

Now if only they'd increase head hitboxes in size.

It currently feels way too hard to consistently land headshots with automatic weapon. Especially with every shot causing staggers, and enemies generally liking to shuffle around without ever stoping.

And that only applies to Grineer units.

Cause we also have Drones, Moas, Racknoids, Hyenas, Infested, Legates.... (Rollers, lol)

I honestly don't see how this change will really benefit anyone who's not playing Limbo, Harrow or Mag.

pss. just take 

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Scourge

I am satisfied with how much my build will intensify, though I would prefer to ignore the armor instead.) 

[Rantear]

2 часа назад, selig_fay сказал:

pss. just take 

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Scourge

I am satisfied with how much my build will intensify, though I would prefer to ignore the armor instead.) 

I know about this one.
If there were any need, I'd maybe take it.
But as it stands now, it's a bandaid that's not needed.

Also, Pablo said on twitter that spearguns are getting changes, no specifics yet, but he also said that they might show a video about it this week.

[selig_fay]

50 minutes ago, Rantear said:

Also, Pablo said on twitter that spearguns are getting changes, no specifics yet, but he also said that they might show a video about it this week.

I know. I wait this. Maby ferrox got better pull) 

[AegidiusF]

Le 27/08/2022 à 16:56, Silligoose a dit :

Damage attenuation already causes confusion and frustration amongst players, which was readily seen when you reworked Lich damage attenuation. Beyond that, it is infuriating to go out with a loadout that is supposed to x 5times better, but only does x2.3 times better. It is infuriating when hitting weakspots that is supposed to grant x2 damage, giving only x1.5 in actual play.

That's so true. And not only the Lich DA, but also the recent changes on the Nox DA (after the Eximus rework), that was stacking with some other old mechanics that even Pablo ignored.

[wirecard]

Buff Vectis, Me Gusta

[Rantear]

3 часа назад, selig_fay сказал:

I know. I wait this. Maby ferrox got better pull) 

I doubt it'll be a buff to their abilities, maybe some kind of QoL change, I personally hope that they'll make it that we could somehow throw the spear, but still use it as a gun, because currently it doesn't really make much sense to throw your primary weapon at the enemies.

Or considering what frame we get alongside the changes, I'd say it's likely that we'll get ability to jab enemies with them. Or better yet, reclasiffy them into melee that can be switched into a gun mid-mission, and allow those modes to be modded separatly, looking at the Dark Split-Sword, it was probably impossible before, but now after introduction of Incarnon weapons, maybe there's a chance.

 

Or, knowing Pablo, they'll just get a vortex 🤣

[selig_fay]

2 hours ago, Rantear said:

I doubt it'll be a buff to their abilities, maybe some kind of QoL change, I personally hope that they'll make it that we could somehow throw the spear, but still use it as a gun, because currently it doesn't really make much sense to throw your primary weapon at the enemies.

Or considering what frame we get alongside the changes, I'd say it's likely that we'll get ability to jab enemies with them. Or better yet, reclasiffy them into melee that can be switched into a gun mid-mission, and allow those modes to be modded separatly, looking at the Dark Split-Sword, it was probably impossible before, but now after introduction of Incarnon weapons, maybe there's a chance.

 

Or, knowing Pablo, they'll just get a vortex 🤣

Well, at the moment, their throw looks more effective than their shooting. Pull enemies and bubble heads look delicious. Especially bubbles of heads for incarnons.

[Rantear]

33 минуты назад, selig_fay сказал:

Well, at the moment, their throw looks more effective than their shooting. Pull enemies and bubble heads look delicious. Especially bubbles of heads for incarnons.

Does the bubble affect melee? There's only one secondary Incarnon.

[Tiltskillet]

4 hours ago, Rantear said:

I doubt it'll be a buff to their abilities, maybe some kind of QoL change, I personally hope that they'll make it that we could somehow throw the spear, but still use it as a gun, because currently it doesn't really make much sense to throw your primary weapon at the enemies.

Or considering what frame we get alongside the changes, I'd say it's likely that we'll get ability to jab enemies with them. Or better yet, reclasiffy them into melee that can be switched into a gun mid-mission, and allow those modes to be modded separatly, looking at the Dark Split-Sword, it was probably impossible before, but now after introduction of Incarnon weapons, maybe there's a chance.

These sound cool, but I've got mixed feelings about them.  The melee idea in particular sounds like something better suited to a new weapon class.  The fact is,  I enjoy spearguns now, and the main things I feel they're lacking are fairly subtle. 

If the update includes nothing more than an alt-fire to recall function and some numbers tweaks I'll be quite happy.