Revenant's MESMER SKIN is a bit unbalanced - BALANCE SUGGESTION

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

The fix Tarin suggested is very nice and I think he got the perfect way to solve the problem.

(Sorry, I had to go to work and I couldn't finish my previous post).

This only shows that enemy density has ever been a problem to Mesmer Skin (independent of the game mode). There can be much more than 15 Mobs around on normal mode and Revenant have much more than Mesmer Skin to CC and make the Mesmer Skin stacks remain for a bit longer. Revenant survivability used to rely not only on Mesmer Skin, but also on his other abilities (at least to protect him while recasting Mesmer Skin).

Loki has never been OP and he has a specific balance : his invisibility cannot be recasted and you need to protect yourself to recast it (it's intended like that, as the in game tips say). Disarm do not prevent all damage and Loki can take damage from many sources. Also, it has 100 base energy cost : the double of Mesmer Skin base cost. The new Loki Augment Mod for Switch Teleport is excellent but it also needs a specific build to work nice and has a 75 energy cost : higher than Mesmer Skin for a lower invulnerability duration. Loki can be invulnerable now, but it has a cost (and not a cheap one) ! That's very different from Revenant.

It worked very well on the Archon fight and I always use it on SP without problems. A one-hit KO synergy than can easily kill a cap level mob is excelllent.

Violence is the best Acolyte in my opinion and the reason I love her is that you need to change your gameplay when she appears. If you can't use Mesmer Skin (less than 20m from her) you'll need to fight her from a certain distance, or use some other mechanics. There is only warframe that can prevents Violence decast and it's Banshee herself with the true Silence ability. Every other signle frame suffers from Violence when she uses Silence. She is a threat for everybody, Revenant is no exception. Yareli will lose Merulina, Valkyr won't be able to use Hysteria... all these frames will need to adapt and find a way : and that way is pretty simple as Violence will attack with melee. The cooldown won't change anything, as Revenant's advantage against Violence is Enthrall : Violence do not dispells all abilities and Thralls will still fight her and take her attention giving you enough time to kill her. That's how I deal with her and it works really nice.

Who told you I wasn't using it ? Santa Claus ? 😆 (just a little joke).

I depends on the mission, on the damage type, on the enemy density... Some Toxin while recasting and RIP Revenant (at least before Veilbreaker).

No it is actually a really bad idea that would shift him back to a normal start chart frame pretty much. Since it would do absolutely nothing for SP.

How does it show that density has been a problem? No, more than 15 mobs around you is very unlikely on normal, maybe more than 15 on the map, but not all attacking you at once. Rev used to rely only on mesmer skin, because there was zero reason to go 1+3 when you can just reapply it on demand. There was never a reason to "protect" him while recasting, unless you played extremely poorly and decided to recast infront of a toxic ancient or in the middle of a osprey cloud. That again is not a density issue, that is a mob specific situation.

Loki's survival is OP, just like everything else that can stay hidden 24/7. You dont need to protect him either, since shield gate exsists and you know exactly when stealth will run out, so either everything is disarmed within 50m, your shield eats a shot or you dodge behind a corner right before it wears off. Not really hard. The cost of disarm is also a non issue, since loki doesnt need strength, so can freely just stack efficiency, range and duration to make up for the lost duration on fleeting and then add further dura on that for longer cheap stealth. And if you are really really worried to die on stealth recast, just slot rolling guard, since he wont have use for other survival mods.

Why would you use enthrall+reave on the archon fight when you can just hit a single button for a lower cost and reapply all stacks in one go? It's several times quicker just dodging into a doorway or behind a crate if you are afraid of the potential toxin from Nira, on any other archon you can freely recast straight infront of them due to shield gate.

Violence requires a different tactic? I tend to just move when either of them spawn so I'll have range between me and them, then I plant a massive contagion hammer in their face to end them. You really overthink the scenarios or you are heavily undergeared for SP. And Violence would hardly be the problem if you get caught by him and get mesmer stripped incase of a CD mechanic. The rest of the map would be your problem since they have range options to riddle you with bullets.

Toxin has always been the same, it is also only appearing on very few mobs, melee mobs at that. Not sure what the (at least before Veilbreaker) means. Nothing changed in Veilbreaker regarding recasting really. He wont be immune if you freely remove your skin to recast. Not that toxin is hard to avoid.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 1 minute, SneakyErvin a dit :

No it is actually a really bad idea that would shift him back to a normal start chart frame pretty much. Since it would do absolutely nothing for SP.

I can't see how. Revenant just needed some protection from high fire rate Eximus. The other situations were there to balance and if you use Revenant whole set of abilities (made to be used in synergy) you won't have much problems. He doesn't need to be a "only-one-ability" frame. The changes made to the cast will protect Revenant while recasting the ability. And it will have a cost well balanced in regard to the effect obtained. Invulnerability is not a cheap thing.

il y a 6 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

How does it show that density has been a problem?

All your remarks on SP problem for Revenant are based on enemy density. If SP enemy buffs and level aren't a problem (that's SP specificity) and only enemy density on SP is a problem, that shows very well that the problem is not SP at all, but only enemy density (as I've said before).

il y a 9 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

Rev used to rely only on mesmer skin, because there was zero reason to go 1+3 when you can just reapply it on demand.

Many frames have no reason to cast any abilitiy when they can just nuke everything with weapons... many frames have no reason to cast any ability because they can rely only on armor... this is true only for some missions, not for the game as a whole and not for Revenant in its conception design. Some players could even say that Revenant didn't need to cast Mesmer Skin because you could just use his 4th to nuke everything around... it's the same argument.

il y a 14 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

There was never a reason to "protect" him while recasting, unless you played extremely poorly and decided to recast infront of a toxic ancient or in the middle of a osprey cloud. That again is not a density issue, that is a mob specific situation.

Recasting while under Toxin danger wasn't a good idea before, as Revenant used to lose all stacks when Recasting Mesmer skin. While active, Mesmer Skin can prevent death from Toxin damage (HP won't go lower than 2), recasting is the most dangerous moment as you were out of protection and Toxin bypasses shields.

il y a 16 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

Loki's survival is OP, just like everything else that can stay hidden 24/7. You dont need to protect him either, since shield gate exsists and you know exactly when stealth will run out, so either everything is disarmed within 50m, your shield eats a shot or you dodge behind a corner right before it wears off. Not really hard.

It can be very hard, it depends on the mission. That's why the new augment for Swithc Teleport is amazing. Shield gate is not that easy and casting time is shield gaters worst enemy. You can't dodge while casting some abilities and that's the case of Loki's Invisibility. You'll get less than 1 second to dodge as casting the ability will take much of the gating time. A specific build with Natural Talent (or the new Archon shard) will be necessary.

il y a 20 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

Violence requires a different tactic? I tend to just move when either of them spawn so I'll have range between me and them, then I plant a massive contagion hammer in their face to end them. You really overthink the scenarios or you are heavily undergeared for SP.

I just love your preconceptions about me.

You said that getting near Violence was a problem as she can dispell Mesmer Skin : and that's true, but that's also true for every single warframe and their survival methods. That's why you need to change your tactics : Mesmer Skin won't be enough and you'll have to keep some distance and avoid enemies around at the same time. No other Acolyte can make you change your play style like Violence does.

il y a 28 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

Toxin has always been the same, it is also only appearing on very few mobs, melee mobs at that.

Few, but deadly. And also against hem Mesmer Skin protects Revenant and most of the Toxin damage won't spend any stack as they are considered as environmental hazard.

il y a 30 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

Nothing changed in Veilbreaker regarding recasting really. He wont be immune if you freely remove your skin to recast.

If that was fixed, those are good news ! When the Veilbreaker launched, you were protected by the remaining stacks (from a previous cast) on casting (the number disappeared, but the protection was still there). Very nice to learn that. This is nice !

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I can't see how. Revenant just needed some protection from high fire rate Eximus. The other situations were there to balance and if you use Revenant whole set of abilities (made to be used in synergy) you won't have much problems. He doesn't need to be a "only-one-ability" frame. The changes made to the cast will protect Revenant while recasting the ability. And it will have a cost well balanced in regard to the effect obtained. Invulnerability is not a cheap thing.

All your remarks on SP problem for Revenant are based on enemy density. If SP enemy buffs and level aren't a problem (that's SP specificity) and only enemy density on SP is a problem, that shows very well that the problem is not SP at all, but only enemy density (as I've said before).

Many frames have no reason to cast any abilitiy when they can just nuke everything with weapons... many frames have no reason to cast any ability because they can rely only on armor... this is true only for some missions, not for the game as a whole and not for Revenant in its conception design. Some players could even say that Revenant didn't need to cast Mesmer Skin because you could just use his 4th to nuke everything around... it's the same argument.

Recasting while under Toxin danger wasn't a good idea before, as Revenant used to lose all stacks when Recasting Mesmer skin. While active, Mesmer Skin can prevent death from Toxin damage (HP won't go lower than 2), recasting is the most dangerous moment as you were out of protection and Toxin bypasses shields.

It can be very hard, it depends on the mission. That's why the new augment for Swithc Teleport is amazing. Shield gate is not that easy and casting time is shield gaters worst enemy. You can't dodge while casting some abilities and that's the case of Loki's Invisibility. You'll get less than 1 second to dodge as casting the ability will take much of the gating time. A specific build with Natural Talent (or the new Archon shard) will be necessary.

I just love your preconceptions about me.

You said that getting near Violence was a problem as she can dispell Mesmer Skin : and that's true, but that's also true for every single warframe and their survival methods. That's why you need to change your tactics : Mesmer Skin won't be enough and you'll have to keep some distance and avoid enemies around at the same time. No other Acolyte can make you change your play style like Violence does.

Few, but deadly. And also against hem Mesmer Skin protects Revenant and most of the Toxin damage won't spend any stack as they are considered as environmental hazard.

If that was fixed, those are good news ! When the Veilbreaker launched, you were protected by the remaining stacks (from a previous cast) on casting (the number disappeared, but the protection was still there). Very nice to learn that. This is nice !

SP was a place where Rev needed the buff to survival, because recasting mesmer every few seconds versus all factions with ranged was not a sustainable survival approach. Thralls+Reave was not a solution since you lose more stacks than you gained due to the random nature of thralls, unless you stop to target 7 individual enemies during heavy incoming fire.

But that makes it a SP problem since no other place has the individual density of SP. You keep ignoring that things can be played solo. Which is where SP becomes the biggest issue for Rev. He has simply worked like that from start, where the content level hasnt mattered as such aslong as you maintain your skin. Fortuna was the first place to screw it up since certain enemies ignored mesmer skin mechanics and ate the stacks instantly. SP further increased the issue due to how many mobs are attacking at once, then Eximus came and the old CC issue from Fortuna got brought to light due to the presence of similar mobs on all missions.

No really it isnt the same argument.

You are still exposed and no toxin isnt an issue because you shouldnt stand in toxin while recasting.

Heh no, it isnt very hard depening on the mission. Only team mates can screw you over, nothing else. And how the heck is shield gate not easy? It is always there the moment stealth drops, because you just dont get hit while stealthed since nothing will aggro you. And who uses Loki without NT? What the heck do you spend your capacity on? Unicorns and honeydew?

No I said getting close to Violence can be a problem if a CD is added. Now you just need to be aware, get outa there and rebuff. And it is certainly not an issue for already tanky frames, because violence cannot uhm dispell health and armor. Having to change tactics makes you assume people are facetanking everything, which just isnt the case. If I already play ranged I'm already out of distance from violence when it spawns. Malice forces you alot more, because you need to be on your toes so you dont happen to shoot exactly when she casts her bullet attract. Except for Rev you just eats a few of his own stacks.

It always removed the skin, what may have stayed is the 1 sec invulnerability window if you did a recast exactly as an enemy hit you.

[nslay]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

SP was a place where Rev needed the buff to survival, because recasting mesmer every few seconds versus all factions with ranged was not a sustainable survival approach. Thralls+Reave was not a solution since you lose more stacks than you gained due to the random nature of thralls, unless you stop to target 7 individual enemies during heavy incoming fire.

As an early adopter for SP, I didn't experience Mesmer Skin problems. Once you got a Thrall up, enemies were pretty much ignoring you.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 17 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

And who uses Loki without NT?

Me. Don't need it.

Decoy + Limbo's infusion is much greater, in my opinion, for Loki's survivability while recasting, with much more advantages than Natural Talent.

Il y a 17 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

SP was a place where Rev needed the buff to survival, because recasting mesmer every few seconds versus all factions with ranged was not a sustainable survival approach. Thralls+Reave was not a solution since you lose more stacks than you gained due to the random nature of thralls, unless you stop to target 7 individual enemies during heavy incoming fire.

SP is a problem only if you are not using Revenant's whole set of abilities. Enemy density has always been a problem to Mesmer Skin, but only if you use it regardless of the other abilities. Enemy density wasn't a problem if you are using the whole set of abilities to prevent losing stacks. That was a nice balance : enemy density is a problem to mesmer skin, but you can avoid this problem by using the other abilities in synergy. After the Veilbreaker changes, Mesmer Skin can be used alone and still work extremely well. This way, Revenant's invulnerability/immortality was tied to ac continued use of the other abilities. Now, it's no more the case.

Thralls are more than enough to CC enemies around, even on SP.

Il y a 17 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

You are still exposed and no toxin isnt an issue because you shouldnt stand in toxin while recasting.

Some enemies attack sith Toxin : Nox (and their fake Stug) and some infested.

Il y a 17 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

And how the heck is shield gate not easy? I

Shield gate in itself is not easy. With Loki it's much easier than with some other frames, also with Mag and Hildryn, but in itself, Shiled Gate is not easy at all and relies a lot on the players skills.

Not to mention that if you have Zenurik's Inner Might active, you will have some shileld gate surprises...

Il y a 17 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

No I said getting close to Violence can be a problem if a CD is added.

It depends on the moment. And it's already the same for Gyre and Lavos, and we can kill Violence with these frames by just CCing mobs around and using ranged weapons on the Acolyte.

Again, the whole abilities set will be necessary, as Violence do not dispell Enthrall if it already affects an enemy. Just the same way she doesn't dispell Titania Lantern, Hydroid's Tentacles... and some other abilities that affects the surroundings or an enemy.

Il y a 17 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

Malice forces you alot more, because you need to be on your toes so you dont happen to shoot exactly when she casts her bullet attract. Except for Rev you just eats a few of his own stacks.

Malice is extremely easy : the Magnetize bubble can be avoided or just taken away (if you're caught inside it) by just rolling. It has very low fire rate and an easily avoidable ability : Malice's problem is that it will run away from you very often and you'll have to chase it to kill.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, nslay said:

As an early adopter for SP, I didn't experience Mesmer Skin problems. Once you got a Thrall up, enemies were pretty much ignoring you.

Problem for me was that the moment a thrall went up, it was killed, and that was when playing solo even. And main thing with SP was killing killing killing, slowing down was never a viable approach, so making sure of thrall locations to keep them alive so yuo could survive better just wasnt a real option. Rev was already far behind in KPM compared to other frames.

3 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Me. Don't need it.

Decoy + Limbo's infusion is much greater, in my opinion, for Loki's survivability while recasting, with much more advantages than Natural Talent.

SP is a problem only if you are not using Revenant's whole set of abilities. Enemy density has always been a problem to Mesmer Skin, but only if you use it regardless of the other abilities. Enemy density wasn't a problem if you are using the whole set of abilities to prevent losing stacks. That was a nice balance : enemy density is a problem to mesmer skin, but you can avoid this problem by using the other abilities in synergy. After the Veilbreaker changes, Mesmer Skin can be used alone and still work extremely well. This way, Revenant's invulnerability/immortality was tied to ac continued use of the other abilities. Now, it's no more the case.

Thralls are more than enough to CC enemies around, even on SP.

Some enemies attack sith Toxin : Nox (and their fake Stug) and some infested.

Shield gate in itself is not easy. With Loki it's much easier than with some other frames, also with Mag and Hildryn, but in itself, Shiled Gate is not easy at all and relies a lot on the players skills.

Not to mention that if you have Zenurik's Inner Might active, you will have some shileld gate surprises...

It depends on the moment. And it's already the same for Gyre and Lavos, and we can kill Violence with these frames by just CCing mobs around and using ranged weapons on the Acolyte.

Again, the whole abilities set will be necessary, as Violence do not dispell Enthrall if it already affects an enemy. Just the same way she doesn't dispell Titania Lantern, Hydroid's Tentacles... and some other abilities that affects the surroundings or an enemy.

Malice is extremely easy : the Magnetize bubble can be avoided or just taken away (if you're caught inside it) by just rolling. It has very low fire rate and an easily avoidable ability : Malice's problem is that it will run away from you very often and you'll have to chase it to kill.

So then you have no problem keeping Loki permanently "invulnerable", with or without NT.

No, especially not early on, since spending most of the time making sure to survive ment no killing and no killing ment a reduced amount of eximus, which resulted in alot of lost essence. Now I dont think it is much viable either, since if you play something like survival, stopping your killing pretty much guts life support, and in other modes it means something will get overwhelmed if killing is not on par. One of the biggest issues people have pointed out since the release of Rev is that his thralls arent really viable, because they simply die to quick to actually be a distraction.

Which also covers what yuo say regarding thralls being enough CC. No really, they just die the second after you made one, giving them no time to spread, and if they happen to spread, the chance is high it was a close by target, so you'll annihilate that one too on your next attack.

And why would you freely recast your skin if you have a massive gooey globe stuck on you?  Right now it just seems like you grasp for straws to make very very very uncommon situations seem like run of the mill happenings.

Shield gate being easy was in relation to Loki, where it is extremely easy since you never get hit, same goes for Rev, it is always there when you need it. On Rev it is extra strong aswell, since if you happen to be near anything when the shields drop you'll knock the enemies on their hiney. And I'd say inner might is a user error, why use that tree if you are planning on reliable shield gate sustain? Build properly in the first place. Not that sustainable shield gate is what we talked about here, just shield gate being there when an ability drops, an ability that otherwise removes you from all danger (when solo atleast).

How is Violence a problem for Lavos? He practically relies on none of his skills as buffs and his #4 will pretty much wipe out any acolyte in seconds, and the rest of the map aswell. You also missed the point that Violence isnt the problem with thralls, all of the other enemies are. If you enthrall anything, that thrall will be dead the second after if you do it to distract Violence, meaning everyone else will go ape on you either way in a case where you dont have access to mesmer skin due to an unlucky dispell. Or did you simply plan to spawn thralls and watch Violence from a distance until your CD is ready?

Yes Malice is very easy, but she still requires timing so you dont shoot as the bubble lands or rolls away to early so it isnt cleared. With Violence there is little to think about, just as with other acolytes, since you will likely want to gain distance to most of them as they spawn. I've never actually seen Malice run away, since she dies the moment after the bubble is removed, or directly as she spawns nowdays since I always use my contagion on acolytes.

[nslay]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Problem for me was that the moment a thrall went up, it was killed, and that was when playing solo even

That doesn't seem very likely given the 3x health/shields/armor bonus. Even basic Grineer lancers should be able to tank Bombard or Elite Shield Lancer attacks... and convert them to Thralls.

EDIT: Maybe the Shockwave Moas? They're delicate enough to believe they can be killed... though not before firing off some shots themselves!

[PollexMessier]

On 2022-09-16 at 4:39 AM, Xaero said:

Before people start telling you how bad an idea about cooldowns is (too late), I'd like to expand on it a bit.

1. Most (if not all) abilities should be on cooldown. Many of them could be buffed to somewhat compensate restricted usage.

2. Killing enemies with weapons should reduce cooldown timers.

General gameplay would benefit from this: more action, more tactical thinking, less spamming.

I'd stop playing this game in a heartbeat if they decided to add cooldowns to all abilities. I'm sure a lot of other people would to. Ability spam is half the reason many people play this game at all. The cooldown on Gyre's 3 SUCKS because the game punishes you for casting it if your teamates decide to not let you get any kills. Which is an issue several other abilities in the game also have for various different reasons. and teamates wiping enemies before you have a chance to touch them is not an issue cooldowns would fix.

And imagine invisibility abilities with a cooldown.

Gara's kit would be totally screwed cus it relies on you rapidly flipping between casting her 4 and her 1 to build up damage and keep her 2 active.

The entire reason frost is usable in end game content is cus spamming his globe stacks health onto it, and spamming his 4 keeps enemies from vaporizing it in an instant.

How would you even use vauban's 3 with a cooldown.

Armor strip abilities that require multiple casts to fully strip armor would be destroyed.

It'd kill Ember.

Banshe's already a dead frame. and the single biggest reason anybody uses her ever is spamming sonar.

Grendel would just be a complete disaster.

It would kill container farming.....

Sanctuary onslaught would be borderline unplayable.

The game's not designed to be that way. Every frame, several game modes, and even some core functions of the game would have to be reworked to compensate for a change like that.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 16 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

So then you have no problem keeping Loki permanently "invulnerable", with or without NT.

Yes, I do, and not only Loki, but it has a cost and some flaws as he is not 100% protected.

il y a 18 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

One of the biggest issues people have pointed out since the release of Rev is that his thralls arent really viable, because they simply die to quick to actually be a distraction.

But they can turn other mobs into Thralls (up to the cap of 7). If one dies, another will be created. You just have to cast it every 30 seconds (or something about 30 seconds), as this will refresh every single existing Thrall duration. The best is to use Thral from time to time on a stunned enemy by Mesmer Skin : no energy cost, CC and ability duration refreshed.

il y a 19 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

Which also covers what yuo say regarding thralls being enough CC. No really, they just die the second after you made one, giving them no time to spread, and if they happen to spread, the chance is high it was a close by target, so you'll annihilate that one too on your next attack.

Thralls has two kinds of use : on life : CC (and Primary damage with Augment Mod) ; and on death : regen Stacks, HP and Shields (Reave) and a bit damage (energy pillar - not hat efficient though). A killed Thrall is an invitation to enthrall another mob, specially if Mesmer Skin is active.

You need to recast Enthrall from time to time, as you will kill some of them too, but they can last longer. Eximus Thralls are the best and they can last for a very long time.

il y a 29 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

And why would you freely recast your skin if you have a massive gooey globe stuck on you?  Right now it just seems like you grasp for straws to make very very very uncommon situations seem like run of the mill happenings.

Nox are not that rare (and infested Toxin damagers neither) : sometimes I just son't have any other option than recasting.

il y a 31 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

Shield gate being easy was in relation to Loki, where it is extremely easy since you never get hit, same goes for Rev, it is always there when you need it.

Yes, I agree with that. Shield gate is easier on some frames, harder with others.

il y a 33 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

How is Violence a problem for Lavos?

Violence is not a problem to Lavos. I was saying that Gyre and Lavos have cooldowns and they can deal with Violence. So, for the same reason, also could Revenant.

But even Lavos won't be able to cast his 4th if Violence is nearby. And I prefer his 2nd with Viral to quick kill the Acolyte with a corrosive weapon : Speed down Acolyte with some damage vulnerability and a damage type effectiveness multiplier.

il y a 36 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

ou also missed the point that Violence isnt the problem with thralls, all of the other enemies are. If you enthrall anything, that thrall will be dead the second after if you do it to distract Violence, meaning everyone else will go ape on you either way in a case where you dont have access to mesmer skin due to an unlucky dispell.

When I create a Thrall, the first thing it does is to create other Thralls (the cap of 7 is very quick reached). This is shown on the videos I posted when I fought Archon Amar. Violence will attack Thralls, giving you enough time to kill him from some distance.

il y a 39 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

Or did you simply plan to spawn thralls and watch Violence from a distance until your CD is ready?

But CD is no more a question here, as I accepted TARINunit9 fix as better than mine. Violence being immune to CC, the 1 second invulnerability will trigger.

il y a 40 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

Yes Malice is very easy, but she still requires timing so you dont shoot as the bubble lands or rolls away to early so it isnt cleared.

You can roll at any time (even many times). This will remove the bubble from you. You can also melee Malice without problems. But you are right : the only thing you can't do is to fire, this would be suicide.

il y a 42 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

I've never actually seen Malice run away, since she dies the moment after the bubble is removed, or directly as she spawns nowdays since I always use my contagion on acolytes.

I think I'm too ugly and I frighten Malice, because she runs from me to hide in a corner very often.

 

[AegidiusF]

il y a 12 minutes, PollexMessier a dit :

The cooldown on Gyre's 3 SUCKS because the game punishes you for casting it if your teamates decide to not let you get any kills.

But your tem mates' kills also increases Cathode's Grace duration. Is it not working anymore ? You jest need to spread any kind of status around.

il y a 15 minutes, PollexMessier a dit :

Ability spam is half the reason many people play this game at all.

This is true. You are right. That's why the colldown suggestion was replaced by TARINunit9 suggestion : the 1 second invulnerability will trigger only if Mesmer Skin CC is not applied.

il y a 17 minutes, PollexMessier a dit :

Which is an issue several other abilities in the game also have for various different reasons. and teamates wiping enemies before you have a chance to touch them is not an issue cooldowns would fix.

Also true. I agree.

il y a 17 minutes, PollexMessier a dit :

And imagine invisibility abilities with a cooldown.

Ah ! Ok, you are talking about Xaero's suggestion for a more spread use of cooldowns. Now I understand.

That's not my suggestion though.

il y a 18 minutes, PollexMessier a dit :

The entire reason frost is usable in end game content is cus spamming his globe stacks health onto it, and spamming his 4 keeps enemies from vaporizing it in an instant.

And also the Globe is a nice DPS in the game : being able to remove 50% of enemies HP on cast, no matter DR and DA. But very few people use it this way 🥲. Very effective on corridors.

il y a 21 minutes, PollexMessier a dit :

Banshe's already a dead frame. and the single biggest reason anybody uses her ever is spamming sonar.

You are being very mean to my beloved Banshee ! 😁

I use Banshee a lot and she was my most used frame to clean all SP chart. My most loved ability is Silence and I use every single Banshee ability. On some builds I max the efficiency of an ability, that's true, but I have more than 1 build per ability : it's the only frame I've made more than three different build : 5 for Banshee and 5 for Banshee Prime. Very polyvalent frame, with great potential.

il y a 25 minutes, PollexMessier a dit :

The game's not designed to be that way. Every frame, several game modes, and even some core functions of the game would have to be reworked to compensate for a change like that.

I agree with this and I agree with your concerns about adding cooldowns on every frame : I don't think it would be a good thing. Warframes are different and cannot be treated the same way.

My suggestion was to add a very little cooldown to Mesmer Skin, not to every frame, in order to a bit balance his invulnerability and prevent brainless use (also to avoid an eventual worse nerf in the future).

Thanks for your answer.

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

Geez, this threads still going? That mad about Wukong?

Revenant is fine, his abilities "dont disrupt the gameplay of others" except for maybe the 4 if it kills enemies. 

[nslay]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

You also missed the point that Violence isnt the problem with thralls, all of the other enemies are. If you enthrall anything, that thrall will be dead the second after if you do it to distract Violence,

I'll have to record some short clips of my experience with Thralls in SP... because they don't die. Not even to Violence. They're my recommendation to deal with Violence as he can't turn off Thralls.

 You know what? I have some videos with The Stalker (when he was very hard). The Infested are more delicate and even they don't really die as Thralls in Steel Path

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

I guess BBcode doesn't work anymore. Can't insert spoiler blocks on phone. I have a junk tinker toys UI.

[SneakyErvin]

35 minutes ago, nslay said:

That doesn't seem very likely given the 3x health/shields/armor bonus. Even basic Grineer lancers should be able to tank Bombard or Elite Shield Lancer attacks... and convert them to Thralls.

EDIT: Maybe the Shockwave Moas? They're delicate enough to believe they can be killed... though not before firing off some shots themselves!

No no. The problem with them dying is due to us. We use them to distract enemies in a direction that we will likely end up annihilating the next second, killing enemies and thralls in a big splodey fireball of death. Which turns it into a catch 22. Should we spam thralls/allow them to spread to distract mobs in order to survive, or should we kill mobs and thralls alike, making the time spent on casting enthrall pointless? In SP missions where we needed the current changes, stopping to cast over and over or allowing thralls to spread just isnt something there is time for. Under the old system it gimped eximus spawns, in the new system it still gimps life support. If you refer to non-endless then I just never used enthrall on Rev since the density was no worse than normal start chart, and the increased damage output from mobs didnt matter.

3 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Yes, I do, and not only Loki, but it has a cost and some flaws as he is not 100% protected.

But they can turn other mobs into Thralls (up to the cap of 7). If one dies, another will be created. You just have to cast it every 30 seconds (or something about 30 seconds), as this will refresh every single existing Thrall duration. The best is to use Thral from time to time on a stunned enemy by Mesmer Skin : no energy cost, CC and ability duration refreshed.

Thralls has two kinds of use : on life : CC (and Primary damage with Augment Mod) ; and on death : regen Stacks, HP and Shields (Reave) and a bit damage (energy pillar - not hat efficient though). A killed Thrall is an invitation to enthrall another mob, specially if Mesmer Skin is active.

You need to recast Enthrall from time to time, as you will kill some of them too, but they can last longer. Eximus Thralls are the best and they can last for a very long time.

Nox are not that rare (and infested Toxin damagers neither) : sometimes I just son't have any other option than recasting.

Yes, I agree with that. Shield gate is easier on some frames, harder with others.

Violence is not a problem to Lavos. I was saying that Gyre and Lavos have cooldowns and they can deal with Violence. So, for the same reason, also could Revenant.

But even Lavos won't be able to cast his 4th if Violence is nearby. And I prefer his 2nd with Viral to quick kill the Acolyte with a corrosive weapon : Speed down Acolyte with some damage vulnerability and a damage type effectiveness multiplier.

When I create a Thrall, the first thing it does is to create other Thralls (the cap of 7 is very quick reached). This is shown on the videos I posted when I fought Archon Amar. Violence will attack Thralls, giving you enough time to kill him from some distance.

But CD is no more a question here, as I accepted TARINunit9 fix as better than mine. Violence being immune to CC, the 1 second invulnerability will trigger.

You can roll at any time (even many times). This will remove the bubble from you. You can also melee Malice without problems. But you are right : the only thing you can't do is to fire, this would be suicide.

I think I'm too ugly and I frighten Malice, because she runs from me to hide in a corner very often.

 

But all of that can be circumvented on Loki. It is up to you if you dont wanna use it. Do you complain that Roar is bad on Rhino too if you dont invest in the stats that benefit the frame? I doubt it.

There is no time for them to spread it, and not far enough to guarantee some stay alive. Mobs just arent spread out as they are in normal missions, they are ontop of eachother, so 1 thrall spreading to another wont matter, since both will die on your next attack. And yeah, you go ahead and find the stunned mobs in a steel path endless to make the casting cost free. Let me just waste several upon several seconds of standing still doing nothing to find a mob among 50 or so others, maybe behind you or to your side. Really sustainable tactic.

No time for it. At this point I wonder if you even play SP missions. When do you ever have time to stop and let them spread or distract enemies?

Nox are also fairly much dead quite quickly. They are really only dangerous if you crack a helmet and for some reason leave them rampaging around near you with their toxin cloud. But then again, why would you allow such a thing?

It isnt the cooldown itself that is the thing here, it is what is tied behind that CD. Lavos, whatever, damage, damage, damage, possibly a helminth buff, damage and more damage. Gyre, some crit chance you wont die if you lose. If you are in the thick of it so Violence spawns on you, you are like dead eitherway for other reasons with that frame.

Sure you can. It is silly easy to time it so you nuke the crap out of Violence as it spawns. Especially in endless missions where you can force the spawn in the middle of a mob pack for crazy amounts of gas clouds. And I get more and more a feeling that you barely set foot in SP since you now say you use viral on a viral immune enemy to kill it faster. Maybe uhm be aware of what goes on in the missions you play? Should we really listen to your request regarding a mesmer nerf when you cant keep track of game mechanics and restrictions? ❔

Archon missions are not comparable to SP though, since Archons are more like a normal mission due to not being SP endless scaled. You also dont need to keep killing to stay afloat, unless you play some special archon hunt with SP survival while killing the archon itself. I know I didnt atleast. So allowing them to spread there isnt very odd, because you are allowed to, since there is no pressure to keep a meter going etc. It is infact a better solution compared to killing them because you will likely save ammo on it. But still, it isnt endless SP.

The 1sec immunity wouldnt trigger, since it isnt an attack that removes it, it is a dispell, so buh-bye skill. And his solution would still fail to keep Rev viable in SP due to losing stacks far far quicker due to the shear amount of enemies you face.

Yes you can roll as much as you like, your point is? How does that remove the need to make sure you rolled at the right time? You can roll extra times yet fail to clear it since it wasnt cast until after you completed your last roll. At which point you'll faceplant yourself with a bullet, rocket, bomb, arrow or whatever you may use. Which is why I use contagion, since it counts as a melee attack, same with the glaives iirc. No need to wait or roll.

[SneakyErvin]

7 minutes ago, nslay said:

I'll have to record some short clips of my experience with Thralls in SP... because they don't die. Not even to Violence. They're my recommendation to deal with Violence as he can't turn off Thralls.

 You know what? I have some videos with The Stalker (when he was very hard). The Infested are more delicate and even they don't really die as Thralls in Steel Path

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

I guess BBcode doesn't work anymore. Can't insert spoiler blocks on phone. I have a junk tinker toys UI.

Well you are running a normal mission. Those are as forgiving to Rev as vanilla normal missions. You shouldnt really need any thralls at all since the density is the same as normal missions, so mesmer shouldnt run out. There is also no pressure to keep kill rate up etc. I'm talking soley endless where Rev didnt keep up, the type of content where he needed the recent changes.

[nslay]

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No no. The problem with them dying is due to us. We use them to distract enemies in a direction that we will likely end up annihilating the next second, killing enemies and thralls in a big splodey fireball of death. Which turns it into a catch 22. Should we spam thralls/allow them to spread to distract mobs in order to survive, or should we kill mobs and thralls alike, making the time spent on casting enthrall pointless? In SP missions where we needed the current changes, stopping to cast over and over or allowing thralls to spread just isnt something there is time for. Under the old system it gimped eximus spawns, in the new system it still gimps life support. If you refer to non-endless then I just never used enthrall on Rev since the density was no worse than normal start chart, and the increased damage output from mobs didnt matter.

Even with AoE weapons, the pillars make more Thralls.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 10 minutes, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily a dit :

Geez, this threads still going?

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, nslay said:

Even with AoE weapons, the pillars make more Thralls.

That end up dying the second after to your next shot, or arent within range to get turned by the pillar due to the range we can cover.

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

13 minutes ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

That mad about Wukong?

 

2 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

 

[AegidiusF]

il y a 13 minutes, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily a dit :

That mad about Wukong?

Wukong... you mean my less played warframe...

[nslay]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

Well you are running a normal mission. Those are as forgiving to Rev as vanilla normal missions. You shouldnt really need any thralls at all since the density is the same as normal missions, so mesmer shouldnt run out. There is also no pressure to keep kill rate up etc. I'm talking soley endless where Rev didnt keep up, the type of content where he needed the recent changes.

You do when facing OG unnerfed Steel Path Stalker. You can't use abilities like Mesmer Skin because, like Violence, he turns them all off. On top of that, you had to be very careful since he could basically one-shot you (shield gate protected me). So while running around dealing with unnerfed Steel Path, it helps when dangerous Infested like Toxic Ancients or Ospreys aren't trying to kill you.

[nslay]

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That end up dying the second after to your next shot, or arent within range to get turned by the pillar due to the range we can cover.

This is not very convincing from this Proboscis Cernos and Glaive Prime user that still uses Thralls in Steel Path.

[SneakyErvin]

5 minutes ago, nslay said:

You do when facing OG unnerfed Steel Path Stalker. You can't use abilities like Mesmer Skin because, like Violence, he turns them all off. On top of that, you had to be very careful since he could basically one-shot you (shield gate protected me). So while running around dealing with unnerfed Steel Path, it helps when dangerous Infested like Toxic Ancients or Ospreys aren't trying to kill you.

I'm honestly not sure what you are even talking about. Unnerfed SP? Huh? Are you talking about SP we dont have now? And a very specific mob that shows up one in a bluemoon in that old SP? Yep because we should clearly change current gameplay based on no longer exsisting things in the game.

2 minutes ago, nslay said:

This is not very convincing from this Proboscis Cernos and Glaive Prime user that still uses Thralls in Steel Path.

Mod that cernos and glaive better maybe? Because both are fairly easily 1HKing most things, even grineer.

[nslay]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm honestly not sure what you are even talking about. Unnerfed SP? Huh? Are you talking about SP we dont have now? And a very specific mob that shows up one in a bluemoon in that old SP? Yep because we should clearly change current gameplay based on no longer exsisting things in the game.

SP was nerfed once (scaling changes) and sentients were nerfed rendering SP Stalker as easy as the Acolytes.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 14 minutes, nslay a dit :

I'll have to record some short clips of my experience with Thralls in SP... because they don't die. Not even to Violence. They're my recommendation to deal with Violence as he can't turn off Thralls.

Yes, that's the best thing : Violence cannot disable Thralls !

Thanks for the video ! I'll subscribe to your channel.

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, nslay said:

SP was nerfed once (scaling changes) and sentients were nerfed rendering SP Stalker as easy as the Acolytes.

That is still not part of the current game, so wtf does it have to do with anything? And what old SP did you run if Stalker always showed up to a point where it was a norm for you?