New juice for old arcanes (buffs or merges)

[KitMeHarder]

5 hours ago, Zeclem said:

in missions where you are need to kill things

Good to know we've already excluded a large portion of the game.

5 hours ago, Zeclem said:

125 kills is really nothing

That's about what you'd get in high level solo exterminate... at the end. That's barely more than Augur Secrets, a mod not even worth slotting on most frames. And for your first 100 kills, you have less strength than AS.

Where as ME is often the second strongest duration buff for most frames... as the range stat is almost always king in this game, so they can't use Narrow Minded.

5 hours ago, Zeclem said:

molt augmented is actually just passive

The point is how long it takes to get to the max value... if it reaches it at all. Where as at 0:06 in the mission, ME is fully maxed a majority of the time on most frames.

5 hours ago, Zeclem said:

you clearly do not play much in levels where balance matters if you think this is a legitimate answer

I take most of my builds to SP kuva survival (usually solo) because most of the game is too easy/too lacking in enemies otherwise. Not to mention all the content under that. You are severely underestimating...

• The strength of shields
• The innate defensive properties of most frames
• The amount of CC they can do
•  And how fast you can apply "the best CC is death"

5 hours ago, Zeclem said:

cept it is worse than your 2 at healing

She only needs enough healing to trigger her 3, she doesn't tank with it.

5 hours ago, Zeclem said:

why should i spend an arcane slot on something that i already have better options for?

... because then you can replace those helminth/operator arcane options with better things? Not to mention the value of it being passive.

5 hours ago, Zeclem said:

considering that and the fact that fire rate is a stat that has severe diminishing returns just like every other stat unlike power strength on exalted weapons

The fact you don't think ability strength has diminishing returns speaks leagues. 

5 hours ago, Zeclem said:

and to get %200 fire rate with that mod you would need to have at least two hundred power strength, for which you need either blind rage or transient fortitude, both of which has their own sets of negatives.

And? What kind of kindergarten level attempt to sway me is this? Like seriously, read your own words and tell me what you'd think if someone else said this to you, given the level of game knowledge we're discussing?  

And the fact you think easily getting to 200% strength in this game requires at least one of those mods... also speaks leagues.

5 hours ago, Zeclem said:

because i can tell you that every frame will care/need help on either damage

Weapon damage. Plenty of frames don't care about weapon damage, and in the past there wasn't way to increase most ability's damage(/utility) via arcanes.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

Diminished returns on power strength doesn't exist. You can stack 4-5 or more sources of power strength with 0 diminishing returns so im confused what you mean.

[Zeclem]

12 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Good to know we've already excluded a large portion of the game.

yes, i excluded portions where combat performance does not matter so your arcane suggestions do not matter as well.

12 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

That's about what you'd get in high level solo exterminate... at the end. That's barely more than Augur Secrets, a mod not even worth slotting on most frames. And for your first 100 kills, you have less strength than AS.

Where as ME is often the second strongest duration buff for most frames... as the range stat is almost always king in this game, so they can't use Narrow Minded.

you are going to ignore the math i just put out that shows that that "second strongest duration" is far from the truth in actual practise wont you?

12 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

The point is how long it takes to get to the max value... if it reaches it at all. Where as at 0:06 in the mission, ME is fully maxed a majority of the time on most frames.

ah yeah, you just did.

12 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

I take most of my builds to SP kuva survival (usually solo) because most of the game is too easy/too lacking in enemies otherwise. Not to mention all the content under that.

no, you do not. if you did you would understand the fact that math is clear on the topic.

12 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

You are severely underestimating...

• The strength of shields

very very few frames have 2.4k shields, and that is the amount that gets dunked on by a single basic unit of the faction that people fights the most against at a mid tier level.

so no, im not underestimating any strength. the strength is just not there. there is a huge reason why people prefer smaller shields for the shield gating because the amount it adds to ehp of a frame is close to nothing.

12 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

• The innate defensive properties of most frames

only true dr like from gara and citrine and iron skin fully protects shields, and that is far from "most frames".

12 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

• The amount of CC they can do
•  And how fast you can apply "the best CC is death"

ah yes, cc. the thing that was already weak and got nerfed to death with overguard.

if you think you can keep literally everybody on a map cc'd constantly (because as already established, even a single enemy is enough a punch a hole through your shields), you are just lying.

12 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

She only needs enough healing to trigger her 3, she doesn't tank with it.

yes, because she cant tank with it because it is worse than her 2.

12 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

... because then you can replace those helminth/operator arcane options with better things? Not to mention the value of it being passive.

that does not make it a "staple", and she already has much better ways to get a helminth if needed.

12 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

The fact you don't think ability strength has diminishing returns speaks leagues. 

it does not when its exalted weapons. power str applies on a 1 to 1 basis to their damage. you thinking they had diminishing returns is simply a skill issue.

12 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

And? What kind of kindergarten level attempt to sway me is this? Like seriously, read your own words and tell me what you'd think if someone else said this to you, given the level of game knowledge we're discussing?  

this would be a logical conclusion IF I HAD NOT LITERALLY SAID THE OPPOSITE EXPLICITLY. which I DID. this is not hard to understand if you are arguing in good faith, which you appearently arent. or you just do not read. your choice to decide which one you are at.

12 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

And the fact you think easily getting to 200% strength in this game requires at least one of those mods... also speaks leagues.

ok so how do you get to that level of power strength genius? archon intensify gets you %60 at most, and those two mods are the only ones that get you over %200 power strength unless you are using yet more niche things like energy conversion or limiting yourself to zenurik's aoe or dedicate tons of crimson archon shards to a single frame, which is a very limited resource on its own that forces you to sacrifice other stuff that you really just do not need to.

12 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Weapon damage. Plenty of frames don't care about weapon damage, and in the past there wasn't way to increase most ability's damage(/utility) via arcanes.

almost like thats why i said damage OR survivability. you clearly just cut the part where i said that so blatantly just so you can strawman what im saying. and i am the one who is doing "kindergarten level attempts"? 

this is such a hilariously pointlessly made in bad faith that i am not going to respond any further. let me know when you can actually refute the actual maths that i have posted instead of just "strength of shields" and try to learn how a properly mannered, civilized discussion is supposed to be had.

@(PSN)Joylesstuna no need to be confused, they just did not know that.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2023-03-18 at 10:57 AM, Zeclem said:

there are about 3 frames that can make use of this, making that also extremely niche.

In reality any frame that actually benefits from health can make very easy use of it these days considering what itemization we have access to. Sure look at it in a vaccuum regarding which frames can reliably get orbs on their own and it turns niche. But in reality, all frames have access to an abundance of health orbs if people build for meta, And in endless missions at levels where arcanes matter you'll have full stacks in the first minute. 

Not to mention that together with shards and focus it also enables a reliable TTL approach for Steel Path endless that does not include shield gating or dragon key abuse, even for baseline squishy frames that have no other real TTL options in their kit.

[KitMeHarder]

7 hours ago, Zeclem said:

it does not when its exalted weapons. power str applies on a 1 to 1 basis to their damage. you thinking they had diminishing returns is simply a skill issue.

9 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Diminished returns on power strength doesn't exist. You can stack 4-5 or more sources of power strength with 0 diminishing returns so im confused what you mean.

You have 100% power strength at base. If you add 50% to that, you get 150%, a 50% boost in overall strength. (50/100 = 0.5 or 50%)

Now you have 150% strength. So you add another 50% strength, because if there's no diminishing returns you should get another 50% overall buff in strength. (50/150 = 0.34 or 34%) Hmm? Why's it so much lower than we expected?

• Lets add another 50%... (50/200) now it's only 25% more... lets do it again
• 20%... again
• 17%
• 14%
• etc...

Any source that is linearly scaling and uncapped (i.e. Exalted Weapons), gain less and less benefit from adding the same stat. And in the case of exalteds, that applies to power strength, base damage, elemental damage, attack speed, etc... (BTW, Mesa's 4 actually has diminishing returns on top of diminishing returns because of how it scales.)

7 hours ago, Zeclem said:

ok so how do you get to that level of power strength genius?

• Umbral intensify - 44-77%
• Growing Power - 25%
• Crimson Shards (what else would I want on Titania?) - 50-75%
• Madurai - 40% (Titania's 4 and augment snap-shot on cast, no need to "limit" yourself with constantly reproccing the buff needlessly)
• Etc...

7 hours ago, Zeclem said:

almost like thats why i said damage OR survivability.

What weapon damage OR survivability does Octavia/Danse Macabre Revenant need via old arcanes? Because that's what I was countering/specifying, given you claimed... 

"ok how many frames are there that this applies exactly? because i can tell you that every frame will care/need help on either damage or survivability. including those you just listed. and just energize alone is more than enough to support those examples as well so you dont really need steadfast."

And the point isn't that Steadfast would add to your existing build. It's that it would then enable you to drop efficiency, energy max, or other various energy economy sources for more damaging/utility options.

7 hours ago, Zeclem said:

this is such a hilariously pointlessly made in bad faith that i am not going to respond any further. let me know when you can actually refute the actual maths that i have posted instead of just "strength of shields" and try to learn how a properly mannered, civilized discussion is supposed to be had.

Ah yes, the classic Kruger strat of just plugging your ears. And I don't think you can really speak when it comes to math, my guy. (And "refute" the math you posted? You reposted the damage formula from the wiki and got the lancer's base damage from who knows where. Since you think shields are always down, why don't you post the average up time shields have when you play? Or the accuracy loss enemies receive when aiming at midair player? Or etc... This is something you either need to have an open mind about and ask me specifically how I achieve good uptime on ME... or you just need to test it out yourself... potentially even on builds you're not used to.)

And don't hide under the guise of labeling my part of the discussion as "uncivilized", when I'm simply calling you out when you're wrong. As well as I shouldn't have to tell you why explaining something as rudimentary (elementary) as the downsides of Transient Fortitude and Blind Rage, as if the person's braindead, would illicit a matching response.

"and to get %200 fire rate with that mod you would need to have at least two hundred power strength, for which you need either blind rage or transient fortitude, both of which has their own sets of negatives. especially for blind rage since titania whose augment requires constant casting of titanias other skills while maintaining a channeling ability, basically making arcane energize a necessity."

I am happy to discuss and to help explain anything you might not understand. But I hope you'd also then be more open to the chance that you might be wrong.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

You are so wrong about power strength it hurts. Using basic math, gyre with transient fortitude, blind range,umbral intensify(40%r9), and 5 red archon shards hit 344% strength. With molt augmented she hits just over 400% power strength which is required to armor strip with pillage. If your false info about diminished returns was true she would not be able to full strip as well over 4% would be lost. Unsurprisingly she does. This is quite scary you do not know this seeing how you commonly give advice to everyone everywhere and also considering your rank in game.

[Zeclem]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

In reality any frame that actually benefits from health can make very easy use of it these days considering what itemization we have access to. Sure look at it in a vaccuum regarding which frames can reliably get orbs on their own and it turns niche. But in reality, all frames have access to an abundance of health orbs if people build for meta, And in endless missions at levels where arcanes matter you'll have full stacks in the first minute. 

what meta are we talking here? the ways to reliably get orbs are pretty much limited to two helminth skills that arent really great outside of that specific niche. if you are talking about the base health orbs you get from eximus kills and such, that is not really efficient enough to be meta.

and this arcane itself is like, what, 1200 extra max health? i wouldnt say its worth the effort if you cant get health orbs reliably through your base kit already.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not to mention that together with shards and focus it also enables a reliable TTL approach for Steel Path endless that does not include shield gating or dragon key abuse, even for baseline squishy frames that have no other real TTL options in their kit.

you dont really need this for squishy frames to do good in steel path, shards are fine even without the incredibly busted shield gating. you would be better off using that specific slot for something else.

[KitMeHarder]

Pillage's defense strip is capped. And yes, that 4% is wasted in this case.

6 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

You are so wrong about power strength it hurts. Using basic math, gyre with transient fortitude, blind range,umbral intensify(40%r9), and 5 red archon shards hit 344% strength. With molt augmented she hits just over 400% power strength which is required to armor strip with pillage. If your false info about diminished returns was true she would not be able to full strip as well over 4% would be lost. Unsurprisingly she does.

7 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Any source that is linearly scaling and uncapped (i.e. Exalted Weapons), gain less and less benefit from adding the same stat.

[quxier]

On 3/17/2023 at 3:46 PM, Sojufueled said:

•  
• Arcane Bodyguard: In the era of vulpaphyla, can we just resurrect the pets? Alternatively, a considerable boost to pet effectiveness might be nice here. It's hard to say. Pets are pretty weak and I think DE intentionally keeps them week to discourage passivity.

Not everyone uses Vulvas. I'm using Carrier most of the time because of it looting abilities (vacuum, looter etc).

On 3/17/2023 at 3:46 PM, Sojufueled said:

•  

 Anyway, these are intended more as proof of concept than anything else. Sound off on your own ideas and maybe the idea will get enough traction to reach Pablo's ears.

In my opinion problem of usage of some arcanes are not only about arcanes but about general "place" scarcity (mod slots, arcane slots, archon shards slots), how game forces you to use many "places" and how harder game is without "good stuff".

Let's take 100% armor strip abilities. Caliban's Fustion strike (4th) or Grendel's Pulverize (3rd) requires 200% strength. You cannot do it with single mod/shard/arcane. Shards give you 50%/75% with 5 slots. Blind rage gives you 99% - it's close so 2 mods. Otherwise you need few mods slots. 2 arcane gives you ~100% but one require 250 kills and another casting OP's abilities. And there is Hildryn's Pillage that needs 300% strength (or some other stuffs)

Of course you can mix stuff (e.g. use Molt Augmented for 60% strength + 2x Umbra intensify for 55%). However you still want some stuffs from your gear:

- health, armor, shield, regens/restores

- strength

- duration

- efficiency

- range

- mod sets (e.g. Amar set for teleporting)

- fun stuff (I still have Peculiar Audience on Citrine even thought she could use some more strength if I don't have enough strength).

- speed

- augments

- other stuffs

You won't use all stuffs but you will still use some. Here is my general usage:

- Energy: Energize with P.Flow and some efficiency/duration; Zenurik but I just don't bother changing it but it's helpful, 1 amp arcane - same with Zenurik, but it's sometimes helpful, Energy pads

- Looting: Carrier P: Vacuum, Looter (destroying crates), healing (wall dashing), ammo conversion (Carrier's mod)

- Ammo: pads, carrier's stuffs (above)

- Health: mostly pads, Vitality (sometimes Umbra if I want strength),

As you can see fitting more stuffs being hard for me. I can, for example, use Dethcube (companion) energy generator mod instead of Carrier but I'm loosing Looter. So I have to destroy stuffs manually or use explosion.

 

For normal game (not SP, archon etc) you have some freedom but you still have lot of slots taken. There are shards that can change 1-3 slots in your builds but they are horrible to acquire (time gates & low stat strength).

In order for us to use Arcanes (and other stuffs) they have to be good but YOU HAVE TO HAVE PLACE TO PUT THEM. Without place they are going to be "just worse arcane/mod/stuff".

On 3/17/2023 at 4:32 PM, (PSN)Sentiel said:

The problem is that even with buffs, nobody will be willing to replace their current Warframe Arcanes, like Energize, Grace, or Avenger, which are generally super beneficial to most frames across the board.

Of course there are exceptions (Energize on Hyldrin for example) where these don't work as well, but the alternatives offered by most new (as in post Eidolon) Warframe Arcanes are not worth it, especially since Archon Shards can replace some of them (like Azure Shards can replace Arcane Guardian for example), with the only notable exception coming to mind being Molt Augmented.

It depends on difficulty you are playing on (sp vs normal). IN normal mission you can have less power and use less niche arcanes.

On 3/17/2023 at 8:50 PM, KitMeHarder said:

On 3/17/2023 at 4:32 PM, (PSN)Sentiel said:

but the alternatives offered by most new (as in post Eidolon) Warframe Arcanes are not worth it, especially since Archon Shards can replace some of them (like Azure Shards can replace Arcane Guardian for example), with the only notable exception coming to mind being Molt Augmented.

Not worth it? With 5 normal azure shards you get 750 armor... Guardian is 900. Yeah the 750 is passive (Guardian is pretty easy to proc though)... but you have to use all 5 slots for a reduced amount. IMO archon shards have replaced energize more than any other arcane (~2 normal yellow seem to do the job b/c of excess, as often you aren't 175+ energy below max).

If you have constant source of energy orbs then Shards are better than Energize. If you have less then it's not that simple.

On 3/18/2023 at 12:07 PM, KitMeHarder said:

On 3/18/2023 at 10:57 AM, Zeclem said:

you dont necessarily need duration on every build, power strength is a lot more all around useful stat

How many missions do you get 250 kills? Or even half of that? Now how often does the whole squad have at least that many kills? ME is good because it's fully active instantly and almost passively. 

And even if your build doesn't want a lot of duration, odds are it still wants some. And ME can replace that mod on your build, just like it replaces Primed Continuity on my Mag for example (... allowing me to equip another strength mod that will be better that Augmented 90% of the time).

How many frames needs only 36% duration? On other hand 60% strength, even not always achieved is better in lots of cases because strength is 60% is good in most cases. Stuffs like above 100% armor strip is one case where you don't need more strength.

On 3/18/2023 at 10:27 PM, PR1D3 said:

A list of Arcanes that need improvements and you don't list the Deimos Theorem Duos. Sad face. I wish they get some love. I'm pretty sure most people don't know they exist. They're so bonkers to the point where their UI stack indicators have been broken since they were introduced. 

On 3/19/2023 at 2:23 PM, Sojufueled said:

On 3/18/2023 at 10:27 PM, PR1D3 said:

A list of Arcanes that need improvements and you don't list the Deimos Theorem Duos. Sad face. I wish they get some love. I'm pretty sure most people don't know they exist. They're so bonkers to the point where their UI stack indicators have been broken since they were introduced. 

I didn't mention those because I truly don't know what would make them good. Fundamentally I dislike most zone effects in warframe.

They could just merge Kitgun & Frame's arcanes into Kitgun's arcanes. Add some duration, strength and stuffs and they would be "ok".

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

On 3/18/2023 at 10:57 AM, Zeclem said:

there are about 3 frames that can make use of this, making that also extremely niche.

In reality any frame that actually benefits from health can make very easy use of it these days considering what itemization we have access to. Sure look at it in a vaccuum regarding which frames can reliably get orbs on their own and it turns niche. But in reality, all frames have access to an abundance of health orbs if people build for meta, And in endless missions at levels where arcanes matter you'll have full stacks in the first minute. 

You can have 50 orbs for Arcane blessing within 1 minute?!

[Tiltskillet]

7 minutes ago, quxier said:

Not everyone uses Vulvas.

[KitMeHarder]

29 minutes ago, quxier said:

How many frames needs only 36% duration?

Who said anything about "only"?

29 minutes ago, quxier said:

On other hand 60% strength, even not always achieved is better in lots of cases because strength is 60% is good in most cases. Stuffs like above 100% armor strip is one case where you don't need more strength.

• Just to put it out there, what you said is already a fallacy.
  • And even then, duration has stat caps on frames just like strength does for armor striping abilities. I.E. duration on Nova's Null Star gives her more damage reduction (aka exponentially scaling EHP), up to a cap of 90%. Which you also want to go over, as losing just one particle and going from 90% DR to 85% DR causes you to go from 10x EHP to 6.67X EHP. Meaning you only have 2/3 the EHP you should.
• I wasn't saying whether duration or strength is a stronger stat. I was saying the way you gain Molt Efficiency's buff makes it stronger in most cases.
• ME can also replace a duration mod, allowing you to use a strength mod instead. Many of which will be stronger than Augmented a majority of the time.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

2 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Pillage's defense strip is capped. And yes, that 4% is wasted in this case.

I'm not even sure what you are arguing about now. You cant even admit you are wrong. That 4% has nothing to do with the diminished returns.

[(PSN)Pragmatic_2015]

Just leave my Arcane Eruption alone p10x

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Zeclem said:

what meta are we talking here? the ways to reliably get orbs are pretty much limited to two helminth skills that arent really great outside of that specific niche. if you are talking about the base health orbs you get from eximus kills and such, that is not really efficient enough to be meta.

and this arcane itself is like, what, 1200 extra max health? i wouldnt say its worth the effort if you cant get health orbs reliably through your base kit already.

you dont really need this for squishy frames to do good in steel path, shards are fine even without the incredibly busted shield gating. you would be better off using that specific slot for something else.

Any companion that can hit several enemies on a regular basis does it, and there is no reason to not slot synth mods in the first place. That is if you actually need the extra orb drops, which you dont in endless. At worst you are looking at a few minutes/waves before being capped for the mission if you are only relying on mob drops. And outside of endless there is little point even considering arcanes since they are so short and trivial.

1200 health is alot when you can also get 1000+ armor on the frame. Blessing gives more bang for your buck in the arcane slot if you juggle TTL gearing between shards and arcanes, since guardian which is reliable only gives 900 armor while blessing gives 1200-ish health, and for shards you can compare that to 750 armor or 750 health with basic ones. I pretty much use my Garuda as baseline when deciding which mods, arcanes and shards to invest in on a frame that needs help with armor and health to survive smoother, since I know how long i can push without effort on her in SP endless. So whichever combo gets such a frame to that point or near it at the best cost is the one I'll go with, and right now that is blessing, azure armor and unairu.

I just dont have any other arcanes on the menu, at most I need to give up 1 TTL shard for something like an amber to get better energy sustain or some cast speed. Duration, efficiency and strength is already covered in the modding to match the needs of my activities in the game. No reason to go overboard on any stat when you wont play long enough in a mission to get any return from the extra stats. Right now I practically use Avenger+Blessing, Avenger+Aegis, Avenger+Grace depending on the frame, with a few specific cases using Avenger plus whatever their specific kit might make use of.

Plus on those squishy frames that can make use of blessing + azure armor you also get a huge increase in TTL for your companion.

10 hours ago, quxier said:

You can have 50 orbs for Arcane blessing within 1 minute?!

Yup, with the right loadout no problem. But do take note, that applies to endless with SP mob density numbers.

9 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

 

• I wasn't saying whether duration or strength is a stronger stat. I was saying the way you gain Molt Efficiency's buff makes it stronger in most cases.

How? You need to constantly regain it as you lose shields, while Augmented is 250 kills and then permanent (unless you die). 250 kills doesnt exactly take long if you run content where you actually make any use out of your arcanes. However in that same content chances are high your shields are constantly removed. Not to mention that Augmented enables the use of overextended on more frames, practically converting augmented into a ranged arcane.

[Zeclem]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Any companion that can hit several enemies on a regular basis does it, and there is no reason to not slot synth mods in the first place. That is if you actually need the extra orb drops, which you dont in endless. At worst you are looking at a few minutes/waves before being capped for the mission if you are only relying on mob drops. And outside of endless there is little point even considering arcanes since they are so short and trivial.

i am using panzer cat with deconstruct and i am not getting nowhere enough for it to be noticable. let alone getting all 50 stacks in a few minutes. 

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

1200 health is alot when you can also get 1000+ armor on the frame. Blessing gives more bang for your buck in the arcane slot if you juggle TTL gearing between shards and arcanes, since guardian which is reliable only gives 900 armor while blessing gives 1200-ish health, and for shards you can compare that to 750 armor or 750 health with basic ones. I pretty much use my Garuda as baseline when deciding which mods, arcanes and shards to invest in on a frame that needs help with armor and health to survive smoother, since I know how long i can push without effort on her in SP endless. So whichever combo gets such a frame to that point or near it at the best cost is the one I'll go with, and right now that is blessing, azure armor and unairu.

yeah ok i agree, if you couple it with guardian it is quite a bit.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I just dont have any other arcanes on the menu, at most I need to give up 1 TTL shard for something like an amber to get better energy sustain or some cast speed. Duration, efficiency and strength is already covered in the modding to match the needs of my activities in the game. No reason to go overboard on any stat when you wont play long enough in a mission to get any return from the extra stats. Right now I practically use Avenger+Blessing, Avenger+Aegis, Avenger+Grace depending on the frame, with a few specific cases using Avenger plus whatever their specific kit might make use of.

this is where i'll disagree though. one amber shard is not really comparable to arcane energize. if you find it to be enough for you, that is ofc fine but it is simply not enough for me.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Zeclem said:

i am using panzer cat with deconstruct and i am not getting nowhere enough for it to be noticable. let alone getting all 50 stacks in a few minutes. 

yeah ok i agree, if you couple it with guardian it is quite a bit.

this is where i'll disagree though. one amber shard is not really comparable to arcane energize. if you find it to be enough for you, that is ofc fine but it is simply not enough for me.

What missions are you running then? Are you talking about one-off missions or endless here? SP or normal? Also make sure to use Synth Fiber so you can pick up orbs at all times and not just when damaged.

Yeah together with guardian or shards it is a huge improvement for squishy frames.

Energize just "missfires" too often for me to like it. Shards are consistant, you get it on every pickup with no risk to blow the CD on an overcap of energy when you dont need it. On my Frost I ran 2 amber in his gloom and avalanche spam build, with only the baseline energy pool and I could cast 24/7. Recently got a Tauforged version which replaced both the regular ones in the same build. And on my less spammy Saryn with gloom she's sustained with a single normal amber. I do however run maxed efficiency builds.

[quxier]

15 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

16 hours ago, quxier said:

How many frames needs only 36% duration?

Who said anything about "only"?

That arcane adds 36% duration.

15 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

• •  
• I wasn't saying whether duration or strength is a stronger stat. I was saying the way you gain Molt Efficiency's buff makes it stronger in most cases.

Ok, I've missed that, sorry.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

16 hours ago, quxier said:

You can have 50 orbs for Arcane blessing within 1 minute?!

Yup, with the right loadout no problem. But do take note, that applies to endless with SP mob density numbers.

With right setup and/or mission it's possible but it's not like you phrased it:

Quote

But in reality, all frames have access to an abundance of health orbs if people build for meta,

 

[Zeclem]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

What missions are you running then? Are you talking about one-off missions or endless here? SP or normal? Also make sure to use Synth Fiber so you can pick up orbs at all times and not just when damaged.

i run sp most of the time, and basically everything on sp with a bit more focus on endless fissures. and i did try using blessing on my builds and on frames that couldnt generate orbs it took a while to get 50 stacks, so its not an orb pickup thing since arcane itself lets you pick up orbs when not fully stacked as well.

[KitMeHarder]

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

How? You need to constantly regain it as you lose shields, while Augmented is 250 kills and then permanent (unless you die). 250 kills doesnt exactly take long if you run content where you actually make any use out of your arcanes.

I'm sure you can compile via your own experiences how many of these points actually hold true throughout all the different modes and levels.

• How many modes can you really get 250 kills, and was it worth it to have partial or even no buff during those kills?
• How long once getting the max are you staying in the mission?
• Now how many modes can you do that in coop?
• While not in the Steel Path?
• Without a DPS/Nuke frame?
• With a console host that throttles spawn rates way below what you'd expect (especially in the SP)?
• -
  • If you didn't get to the max, how many kills once you make it to extraction made Augmented worth it? (subjective)
  • And IDK why you said content that "makes use" out of your arcanes. Even if I'm fighting baby level enemies while farming Void Traces... I'm still "making use" of acranes like Energize, ME, etc... to make it faster.
• Etc...

I don't know if this is what you're referencing, but 99% of Warframe is designed to only have you complete a single C rotation... max. If you're an endurance (or dragon key) junkie, that is fine, then I agree Augmented is way better for multiple reasons... that's not the part of Warframe that gives desirable rewards.

Now with Molt Efficiency, all you need to consider...

• At what level can all the frames you like (and would want to use it), use it?
• Now how far can you push it if your frame has shield regen, damage reduction/mitigation, crowd control, high KPM, etc...
• You don't need 100% uptime, you only need it to be max when you cast your ability. (Many abilities when reasonably buffed are around ~40 seconds... so that's once every 40 seconds for some frames.)

I personally have many builds that take ME into Steel Path and do just fine with uptime.

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not to mention that Augmented enables the use of overextended on more frames, practically converting augmented into a ranged arcane.

... Same can be said of ME. It can replace a duration mod, now you can replace said mod with a strength mod, and now Overextended hurts less.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, quxier said:

With right setup and/or mission it's possible but it's not like you phrased it:

Uhm yes it is what I said, you even managed to bold that part in your previous quote.

15 hours ago, Zeclem said:

i run sp most of the time, and basically everything on sp with a bit more focus on endless fissures. and i did try using blessing on my builds and on frames that couldnt generate orbs it took a while to get 50 stacks, so its not an orb pickup thing since arcane itself lets you pick up orbs when not fully stacked as well.

Do you run AoE guns or skills to kill quickly and so on? Because I have no problem on any frame that I use it on. And I run mostly survival, defense or disruption, either as regular SP or SP fissures. I can see it being a problem in excav and interception, espcially if in a group and you are spread out for efficiency since it lowers kills in your local area. But it should hopefully be filled in those modes aswell before you actually need the full stack bonus to survive, hopefully long before you need it.

14 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

I'm sure you can compile via your own experiences how many of these points actually hold true throughout all the different modes and levels.

• How many modes can you really get 250 kills, and was it worth it to have partial or even no buff during those kills?
• How long once getting the max are you staying in the mission?
• Now how many modes can you do that in coop?
• While not in the Steel Path?
• Without a DPS/Nuke frame?
• With a console host that throttles spawn rates way below what you'd expect (especially in the SP)?
• -
  • If you didn't get to the max, how many kills once you make it to extraction made Augmented worth it? (subjective)
  • And IDK why you said content that "makes use" out of your arcanes. Even if I'm fighting baby level enemies while farming Void Traces... I'm still "making use" of acranes like Energize, ME, etc... to make it faster.
• Etc...

I don't know if this is what you're referencing, but 99% of Warframe is designed to only have you complete a single C rotation... max. If you're an endurance (or dragon key) junkie, that is fine, then I agree Augmented is way better for multiple reasons... that's not the part of Warframe that gives desirable rewards.

Now with Molt Efficiency, all you need to consider...

• At what level can all the frames you like (and would want to use it), use it?
• Now how far can you push it if your frame has shield regen, damage reduction/mitigation, crowd control, high KPM, etc...
• You don't need 100% uptime, you only need it to be max when you cast your ability. (Many abilities when reasonably buffed are around ~40 seconds... so that's once every 40 seconds for some frames.)

I personally have many builds that take ME into Steel Path and do just fine with uptime.

... Same can be said of ME. It can replace a duration mod, now you can replace said mod with a strength mod, and now Overextended hurts less.

Practially any mode where you even need to bother with arcanes allows you to fill the 250 kill quota rather quickly. And you will hopefully stay for atleast 3 more full rotations after that. However I dont know why anyone would worry about the best arcane at that point, since you likely wont notice much of a difference at that point with whatever you bring.

And to answer the ME questions. None of my frames can make use of it, since the duration is too short on the arcane to make an actual difference in any of my builds considering the cost of slotting it in comparison to something else. It doesnt give enough to for instance replace primed continuity and it doesnt really provide any bonus compared to slotting augur message if you need to cover for both transient and fleeting in a build. The extra potential 12% wont make or break a build beyond what you get from primed cont and augur combined, you'd look at 105% vs 117% at that point. And if you already use narrow minded the extra seconds will not really matter. On a 30 sec skill you'd look at recasting each 70sec instead of each 60sec, hardly worth the investment. 

That said I'm not saying it doesnt have its uses on certain frames. It is a great tool to allow Nova to reach and maintain the cap without ever really thinking about it thanks to her augment aswell.

ME cant really make up for a mod slot like Augmented, since it just doesnt provide enough stats. Augmented straight up replaces any of the strong strength mods aside from Blind Rage, with no drawbacks tied to it. None of those strength mods will fully negate the negative stats on Overextended, and if you wanna get as close as possible, that means you need to slot Transient, at which point you also lose duration in that slot, a slot where you already removed a duration mod with ME as a replacement. So now instead of 36% gained from ME you end up at 8.5% duration from a whole arcane slot. And if you slotted Augmented there and a duration mod even as low as augur message you'd gain 5% strength and roughly 16% more duration, since you'd no longer be penalized by transient and the slot transient would occupy now gives 24% durartion.

However, the reason to use augmented with overextended is likely because you wanna reach a cap for some other skill, something ME just wont allow for in that case, because you very likely need exactly that 60% strength to offset the loss and still maintain the cap.