Polarity Banking, a Forma system to encourage modding.

[Zahnrad]

This is something I've been thinking on and off for a little while now.

So, I doubt I need to explain to you how the current Forma modding system works. You put on a forma, you can add or remove a polarity of your choosing. The biggest issue is what I can only describe as "Forma" or "Polarity" Remorse.

Maybe you messed up and inserted the wrong polarity while installing a forma, or maybe you made a bad build and you want to change it. Maybe some new stuff was added like Mods or Incarnons that involve you having to install several formas all over again.

Bottom line is, currently. The more Polarities you have on a weapon, warframe or etc. The more you are restricted and "locked into" that one build.

 

My idea is as follows. When you install a Forma onto a piece of equipment. It doesn't instantly apply that polarity. Instead every item has their own "Polarity Bank"

When a forma is installed you can choose one of the Polarity types, and this Polarity will be added to that weapons "Polarity bank"

For example, you install 3 Formas with Y polarities onto an item, it will add 3 Y polarities to this "bank"

 

When choosing to swap/move around polarities on a weapon it will instead draw from this "Bank"

e.g. you have 3 Y polarities on an item, you can revert them to blank, or to another Polarity that you have stored in your bank. These Y polarities will then be stored back into this bank.

 

The whole idea is currently if you over invest into a Warframe, weapon or etc you may end up needing multiple of that Warframe for each individual build. More so if you choose to use Umbral formas. Now so long as you have enough Polarities invested into the Polarity bank on that item, you don't need to waste forma to change the build.

 

Personally, I don't see this as "invalidating" forma or something of that sort, if someone really loves a piece of equipment, they could spend over 8 or 10 forma on it to max out the bank for one individual polarity so that they can apply more builds to the same piece of equipment.

I'd argue this would be great since you'd finally have a genuine reason to buy multiple loadout slots for the same piece of gear.

Here's an oversimplified design of how it could look (I'm not good at designing UI so it's purely conceptual)

[Archeyef]

Arguably, this would lead to more forma investment on preferred items, if you want to maximize flexibility; 8-10 forma so each polarity (except Umbra) has a bank of 10, to be applied as desired.

[Zahnrad]

4 minutes ago, Archeyef said:

Arguably, this would lead to more forma investment on preferred items, if you want to maximize flexibility; 8-10 forma so each polarity (except Umbra) has a bank of 10, to be applied as desired.

Yeah, that's kinda my thinking. It gets rid of most of the problems people have with installing formas, while also giving a reason to forma things more than standard.

Even if this system was added I feel like most people would probably only install 2-3 of each forma which is still a lot in the grand scheme. And it'd make equipment like Necramechs, and the Tenet/Kuva weapons feel less painful when trying to forma them 5 times.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Zahnny

[(XBOX)Lady Ukita]

As someone who went through the pain of having polarity issues and needing to forma a frame/gun more than necessary, I'm not against this idea. Although I would prefer the system similar to kuva/tenet/paracesis where formaing increases the max rank and mod capacity, but without locking MR behind the extra ranks.

[Archeyef]

1 minute ago, Zahnny said:

Yeah, that's kinda my thinking. It gets rid of most of the problems people have with installing formas, while also giving a reason to forma things more than standard.

Even if this system was added I feel like most people would probably only install 2-3 of each forma which is still a lot in the grand scheme. And it'd make equipment like Necramechs, and the Tenet/Kuva weapons feel less painful when trying to forma them 5 times.

mhm

And, just because I realized my response could be interpreted as negative (although I didn't get that impression from you) , I don't think it's a bad idea. If I'm understanding this right, your proposal isn't incompatible with the way forma currently works, so if done right it should be a minor change at worst.

I agree, I think most people would just install forma to the same extent they do now,  and only powergamers and build theorists who love experimenting and switching up their builds would invest more.

[quxier]

26 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

 

Personally, I don't see this as "invalidating" forma or something of that sort, if someone really loves a piece of equipment, they could spend over 8 or 10 forma on it to max out the bank for one individual polarity so that they can apply more builds to the same piece of equipment.

I'd argue this would be great since you'd finally have a genuine reason to buy multiple loadout slots for the same piece of gear.

And if it somehow makes less forma just make each forma "bank" different per slot. Maybe you can copy from Slot A to Slot B for free but if you want to change Slot B you need to reforma. I would rather put like 15+ forma per each frame than being limited to such system.

[Voltage]

56 minutes ago, Archeyef said:

Arguably, this would lead to more forma investment on preferred items, if you want to maximize flexibility; 8-10 forma so each polarity (except Umbra) has a bank of 10, to be applied as desired.

More, but not infinite. This type of thing has been suggested for years now, but the thing players overlook is that future-proofing builds is exactly what DE doesn't want when it comes to Forma. They want it to be a permanent treadmill, not just a finish line like the Focus system or Intrinsics.

[Archeyef]

9 minutes ago, Voltage said:

More, but not infinite. This type of thing has been suggested for years now, but the thing players overlook is that future-proofing builds is exactly what DE doesn't want when it comes to Forma. They want it to be a permanent treadmill, not just a finish line like the Focus system or Intrinsics.

Fair, but I wasn't really suggesting it would be infinite. If DE did implement something like this, it'd probably be in a reduced capacity; maybe each polarity's bank has a maximum quantity below the 8-10 quantity, after which you need to use forma as we do now.

[Voltage]

50 minutes ago, Archeyef said:

Fair, but I wasn't really suggesting it would be infinite. If DE did implement something like this, it'd probably be in a reduced capacity; maybe each polarity's bank has a maximum quantity below the 8-10 quantity, after which you need to use forma as we do now.

I know you weren't suggesting it, but that's the competition. Infinite gear maintenance vs. future-proofing.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

2 hours ago, Archeyef said:

Arguably, this would lead to more forma investment on preferred items, if you want to maximize flexibility; 8-10 forma so each polarity (except Umbra) has a bank of 10, to be applied as desired.

More, but not infinite. This type of thing has been suggested for years now, but the thing players overlook is that future-proofing builds is exactly what DE doesn't want when it comes to Forma. They want it to be a permanent treadmill, not just a finish line like the Focus system or Intrinsics.

Infinite is fancy word here. Hearing "infinite" people would assume like hundreds forma per gear. However in reality it's like 10 maybe? People even complain about Sevagoth's ~15.

Good implementation would yield more forma per average than just "your favorite 10% of gear". Even stuffs like unlocking polarities PER SLOT instead of bank like OP suggested would yield massive increase per gear.

But if they want forces us to buy copies, do many forma to lock us in etc then it's not surprise that some people will go with just "good enough" and don't bother changing builds.

[Archeyef]

Just now, quxier said:

Infinite is fancy word here. Hearing "infinite" people would assume like hundreds forma per gear. However in reality it's like 10 maybe? People even complain about Sevagoth's ~15.

Good implementation would yield more forma per average than just "your favorite 10% of gear". Even stuffs like unlocking polarities PER SLOT instead of bank like OP suggested would yield massive increase per gear.

But if they want forces us to buy copies, do many forma to lock us in etc then it's not surprise that some people will go with just "good enough" and don't bother changing builds.

Apparently now the forums alert you if someone quotes a post that quoted you. I don't know how long that's been a thing (I lurk, like an edgelord in the corner of the tavern).

I think Voltage's point is that, with this mechanic, it would be possible to give gear functionally infinite polarity combinations without the need for additional forma: there are at most 10 mod slots in most items, except for the Nechramech which for some reason has more. If you "bank" 10 of each polarity using this system, then you would never be out of the polarities you need under any circumstances short of DE increasing the number of mod slots. So for a comparatively small investment, you'd have the ability to change your build without ever using additional forma after that point.

[Voltage]

11 minutes ago, quxier said:

Infinite is fancy word here. Hearing "infinite" people would assume like hundreds forma per gear. However in reality it's like 10 maybe? People even complain about Sevagoth's ~15.

Good implementation would yield more forma per average than just "your favorite 10% of gear". Even stuffs like unlocking polarities PER SLOT instead of bank like OP suggested would yield massive increase per gear.

But if they want forces us to buy copies, do many forma to lock us in etc then it's not surprise that some people will go with just "good enough" and don't bother changing builds.

It's a permanent treadmill. It's not the extra cost of 1 Forma, it's the maintenance.

[NecroPed]

A bigger issue for me is the idea that I'm wasting my forma by putting it on a weapon or frame that's going to be replaced by a prime/wraith/vandal/tenet/kuva etc. variant. I actively avoid formaing things without a prime/wraith/vandal/tenet/kuva etc. tag because of this. I think a better idea to make the forma system better is to give us the ability to return forma from a weapon. I'd even be okay with it if we lost 1/4 of our forma, it would just give me the incentive to actually forma something without a prime variant because instead of wondering whether or not I'm going to be entirely wasting it as soon as it's replaced, I can forma something and then take a small loss to get it back and put it on its variant. 

But, in saying that, I would like something like this as well, though I don't see it as a necessity.

[Zahnrad]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

More, but not infinite. This type of thing has been suggested for years now, but the thing players overlook is that future-proofing builds is exactly what DE doesn't want when it comes to Forma. They want it to be a permanent treadmill, not just a finish line like the Focus system or Intrinsics.

Even with this all in mind, it's not going to make Forma obsolete unless DE straight up stop adding new content to the game. Which I doubt will happen.

For Forma to be completely irrelevant in Warframe DE would have to stop adding new weapons, warframes, gear, etc for a long time. Several years I'd wager.

So long as DE keep adding new gear, people will have new gear to Forma. My idea of a Polarity Bank would be for each piece of gear, rather than a universal system.

The reason I say it'd take several years for it to even be a problem is because we already have hundreds of stuff to forma in Warframe, that's not counting items that consume Forma like blueprints, or other forma types.

[Voltage]

4 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

Even with this all in mind, it's not going to make Forma obsolete unless DE straight up stop adding new content to the game. Which I doubt will happen.

For Forma to be completely irrelevant in Warframe DE would have to stop adding new weapons, warframes, gear, etc for a long time. Several years I'd wager.

So long as DE keep adding new gear, people will have new gear to Forma. My idea of a Polarity Bank would be for each piece of gear, rather than a universal system.

The reason I say it'd take several years for it to even be a problem is because we already have hundreds of stuff to forma in Warframe, that's not counting items that consume Forma like blueprints, or other forma types.

If I were to have such a system as this years ago, I would have no reason to reforma old equipment for new Arcanes, Archon Shards, or the Helminth system. That is the point of why I made this counter-argument. It wouldn't make Forma obsolete, it would remove the possibility of reinvesting in old equipment when new upgrades release.

Would I want a system like the proposed? Obviously yes. I live in a cynical realism, not a fantasy where we have mechanics and features that have been requested forever just because it benefits players. The only time that happens is for DE to whip out a "positive PR" Uno reverse card when updates aren't received well (like we saw with Primed Chamber and the multi-year overdue Syndicate Sigil changes). If the sole reason of being added was for the player, it would be done in a timely manner. They just seem to save these things for digging themselves out of the mud.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Voltage

[quxier]

17 minutes ago, Archeyef said:

26 minutes ago, quxier said:

Expand  

Apparently now the forums alert you if someone quotes a post that quoted you. I don't know how long that's been a thing (I lurk, like an edgelord in the corner of the tavern).

Probably years.

17 minutes ago, Archeyef said:

I think Voltage's point is that, with this mechanic, it would be possible to give gear functionally infinite polarity combinations without the need for additional forma: there are at most 10 mod slots in most items, except for the Nechramech which for some reason has more. If you "bank" 10 of each polarity using this system, then you would never be out of the polarities you need under any circumstances short of DE increasing the number of mod slots. So for a comparatively small investment, you'd have the ability to change your build without ever using additional forma after that point.

Excluding mechs, 40-weapons etc you have like 8 slots. 4 common polarities (Zenurik, Vazarin, Naramon and Madurai). Even 1/2 of slots would yield 16 forma. How many, on average, 1 item use? 5 maybe. How many reforma? Another 5. That's like 10 forma.

Yeah, they will be future proof but they would require more work (forma) than current system could (unless you forma without thinking).

28 minutes ago, Voltage said:

40 minutes ago, quxier said:

 

It's a permanent treadmill. It's not the extra cost of 1 Forma, it's the maintenance.

What kind of maintenance?

New forma and booster? You can have it in both systems.

Forcing us to use unleveled gear and clunky system that doesn't let us experiment etc? Priceless. Just kidding. It's just bad for us.

Sure, change would takes time. However I don't see how any kind of "maintenance" is good for them.

22 minutes ago, Voltage said:

25 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

 

If I were to have such a system as this years ago, I would have no reason to reforma old equipment for new Arcanes, Archon Shards, or the Helminth system. That is the point of why I made this counter-argument. It wouldn't make Forma obsolete, it would remove the possibility of reinvesting in old equipment when new upgrades release.

It's half truth. With such system you would have polarities already "invested in" but you would need to buy/get new gear, configure it and test it. It would make experience much better.

[DrBorris]

15 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I live in a cynical realism

I just struggle to look at how DE's monetized the game and see them intentionally designing a system for the sole purpose of monetization. Prime Access is long known to be the money maker for DE, but they significantly reduced the friction to grind out a Prime with Specters of the Rail. And since then Relics have become easier and easier to obtain (outside a minor bump when they capped SE turn in).

So to say that DE isn't willing to rework forma because they are worried about losing money to the subset of a subset players who min-max their items in a way that locks them into builds or builds multiple of an item is... mmm... it is certainly cynical, but I don't know how realistic it is.

 

I'm pretty sure I'm in that idiotic 1% of min/maxers of the game. I have a stupid amount of things forma'd, countless over-investment builds, tl;dr Circuit is a joke to me. That said, when I'm building out a frame and I reach the point where an additional polarity will break another one of my builds... I stop. I just don't do it, Banshee my beloved has been on a slightly unoptimized build for years now because I can't have all of the builds work on the same Banshee. I may be in that tiny percent of min/maxers, but I'm not in the subset of a subset that builds multiple of a thing. For me this change would ruin my (already dry) Forma reserves.

None of us can say where the distribution of "would use less forma" or "would use more forma" is, but a system like this caters more towards a casual audience by reducing the barrier to entry. That would lead me to think that despite losing some "reinvestment" returns, the net would be positive for 3-pack forma bundle purchases (which we are assuming makes up a perceptible amount of plat purchases).

 

I think your cynicism is overshadowing your perception of 'real'. Sure, you can assume DE is a mustache twirling money addict, but if they are then they suck at it. Nearly every monetized thing in this game seems like an afterthought of development, not an initial intention, for better and for sometimes worse.

[Tiltskillet]

38 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I think your cynicism is overshadowing your perception of 'real'.

Even from the cynical side, there's the argument that DE might sell more forma to more people with a looser polarity system, even if it's at the cost of some long term sales among (primarily) long term vets who will reach polarity "the finish line".

[Voltage]

56 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I just struggle to look at how DE's monetized the game and see them intentionally designing a system for the sole purpose of monetization. Prime Access is long known to be the money maker for DE, but they significantly reduced the friction to grind out a Prime with Specters of the Rail. And since then Relics have become easier and easier to obtain (outside a minor bump when they capped SE turn in).

So to say that DE isn't willing to rework forma because they are worried about losing money to the subset of a subset players who min-max their items in a way that locks them into builds or builds multiple of an item is... mmm... it is certainly cynical, but I don't know how realistic it is.

 

I'm pretty sure I'm in that idiotic 1% of min/maxers of the game. I have a stupid amount of things forma'd, countless over-investment builds, tl;dr Circuit is a joke to me. That said, when I'm building out a frame and I reach the point where an additional polarity will break another one of my builds... I stop. I just don't do it, Banshee my beloved has been on a slightly unoptimized build for years now because I can't have all of the builds work on the same Banshee. I may be in that tiny percent of min/maxers, but I'm not in the subset of a subset that builds multiple of a thing. For me this change would ruin my (already dry) Forma reserves.

None of us can say where the distribution of "would use less forma" or "would use more forma" is, but a system like this caters more towards a casual audience by reducing the barrier to entry. That would lead me to think that despite losing some "reinvestment" returns, the net would be positive for 3-pack forma bundle purchases (which we are assuming makes up a perceptible amount of plat purchases).

I am not saying DE is looking at Forma in a greedy manner, my counter-argument is that allowing players to future proof loadouts does not benefit DE or the game long term as the current implementation is one of the core treadmills behind new content. The reduction in friction was from a time when DE did do these things, but we are now in the time of modern DE where they added Regal Aya to the game (almost in a state that was intentionally a bad deal, and 1 Regal Aya with Digital TennoCon ticket owners to dip their toes into the obfuscated currency), the structures of Archon Shards and Veilbreaker, Incarnon Adapters, and more to come I'm sure.

I too am an idiotic 1% min/maxer. I also hate to own multiples of items. I like the concept of choices and consequences where duplicates are needed to "have it all" with a loadout (I do own duplicates for a few things like an Umbral Ivara Prime for Steel Path Survival, duplicate Saryn Prime for Profit-Taker, 2 Zeniths, multiples of some Tenet/Kuva weapons, etc.). Having a dry Forma reserve doesn't really matter in the context of this topic to be honest. Forma is a cheap consumable. Daily blueprints and 35 Platinum aren't exactly hard to earn. This suggestion also removes the need to revisit equipment which means you slowly turn Forma into every other resource you have too much of.

For me, I have everything Forma'd. I keep a spreadsheet to track my progress because DE doesn't in-game (Alecaframe can show Forma per weapon and even total XP earned per weapon lol).

Side Note since it's slightly relevant but helpful to someone out there: Here's a tracker for Incarnon Genesis Progress that I made by the way that subtracts "resources needed" and automatically tracks percentage of weapon family completion upon checking the "Adapter Crafted" box.

I have a decent Forma reserve at the moment of 226 with 14 blueprints at the time of writing this comment. When DE added Incarnon weapons, I actually had to change a couple polarities here and there for their evolutions. In a polarity banking system, I probably wouldn't have had to do anything because these weapons are all old and I already have over 8 Forma in many weapons of the game because of mechanical changes and new features added over time. Many builds when GunCO and weapon Arcanes released required me to add Vazarin polarities to many weapons to replace Serration/Hornet Strike/Primed Point Blank. The same happens when I get new Riven Mods. Down the road, if I need to swap polarities for some reason (new content, new builds, selling a Riven, replacing a Riven), I need to go back and Forma again. With a bank system, you reach a finite investment and there's no reason to touch the weapon again from a leveling perspective. That's fine short term, but long term it means people like you and me can grow larger Forma reserves over time because of some initial sink we made "back in the day". That's not how Forma works, and I do believe there is reason for that. I think DE's solution to that has been more "Arcanes" or "Archon Shards" where there is no polarity system, but the monkey's paw applies where you need 21 duplicates or wait 9 months to get the right Shards you want for 1 Warframe.

56 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I think your cynicism is overshadowing your perception of 'real'. Sure, you can assume DE is a mustache twirling money addict, but if they are then they suck at it. Nearly every monetized thing in this game seems like an afterthought of development, not an initial intention, for better and for sometimes worse.

It probably is, but I can't help it. That is how I look at things, and it's always how I've written my feedback here. I know that more than 75% of the stuff I write is a waste of text into the wind of the internet; something nobody but the person reading it cares about. Most of the time, something that never makes it into the game or into consideration, even when it's painfully obvious to have merit.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Voltage

[CosmicHermitCrab]

I like this idea, like in the cases of changing or switching different rivens, per se.

However, I feel like DE would most likely just add another different type of forma for this same purpose because it would be easier coding-wise. It's probably typically easier to add a new feature as a brand new thing than from a previously reworked thing or system that will need to be re-coded.

5 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I am not saying DE is looking at Forma in a greedy manner, my counter-argument is that allowing players to future proof loadouts does not benefit DE or the game long term as the current implementation is one of the core treadmills behind new content.
...
Daily blueprints and 35 Platinum aren't exactly hard to earn. This suggestion also removes the need to revisit equipment which means you slowly turn Forma into every other resource you have too much of.

This does make sense with the current game design system. Also, most folks that are very abundant on forma are beyond MR 30, which means you have max mod capacity after spending a forma on a weapon's loadout to "fix" it for like switching to a different riven or new build loadout.

Edited June 2, 2023 by CosmicHermitCrab

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

I've done a thread similar to this.  I don't like the idea of it being for just polarities though.  A forma should give you a "point" that can be used to polarize a slot to any basic polarity.  A weapon with 2 innate polarities and a single forma would have 3 points that could be used to repeatedly change any 3 slots to any basic polarity of your choosing.  10 forma on a warframe with no base polarities and you can put whatever polarity you want on every single slot.  

It makes primes with all their polarities feel more like primes.  It encourages experimentation rather than locking you out of it.  It would actually increase forma spending for many people while also giving them a better, more flexible system in exchange.  It has no downsides.

[Voltage]

9 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

This does make sense with the current game design system. Also, most folks that are very abundant on forma are beyond MR 30, which means you have max mod capacity after spending a forma on a weapon's loadout to "fix" it for like switching to a different riven or new build loadout.

I just want to touch on this. I'm still pissed there is no system that grays out or just gives warning signs on mods that are beyond capacity when Forma is applied. This is super anti-player and I hate having to screenshot or note down builds from separate config tabs when I want to use 1 Forma, even as a Legendary 3 player. It's annoying.

[CosmicHermitCrab]

13 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I just want to touch on this. I'm still pissed there is no system that grays out or just gives warning signs on mods that are beyond capacity when Forma is applied. This is super anti-player and I hate having to screenshot or note down builds from separate config tabs when I want to use 1 Forma, even as a Legendary 3 player. It's annoying.

In the past, I used to use warframe.builder website, but am recently trying out overframe instead and I kinda like it more. I mainly use these warframe builder websites regarding the problem you described, with mod costs and polarity stuff. For overframe you can login with gmail and save loadouts easily to the same account. Warframe.builder website I think requires making another account just for the website and is not really updated as often, anymore. Thus, I now prefer using overframe, but overframe didn't exist in the far past before.

Edited June 2, 2023 by CosmicHermitCrab

[DrBorris]

18 minutes ago, Voltage said:

It probably is, but I can't help it. That is how I look at things, and it's always how I've written my feedback here. I know that more than 75% of the stuff I write is a waste of text into the wind of the internet; something nobody but the person reading it cares about. Most of the time, something that never makes it into the game or into consideration, even when it's painfully obvious to have merit.

This cynicism I can't deny. DE has a history of responding to the pulse of the community, not doing exactly what the community wants (which is a hard distinction for some people). I know that while someone at DE does read basically everything here, barely anything gets through the the people who make the decisions and even that likely goes through three filters first. For me the Forums are as much of a hobby as the game, it doesn't have value in that it might change the game as much as it is a fun pastime in itself. It is an endless pit of problem solving with the fun twist of having to communicate that stuff with other people. It is because Warframe is so 'broken' that I have stuck with it tbh, it gives me endless stuff to think about.

 

But back to the other cynicism about DE. I don't think it is good discussion to produce such a cynical counter-argument to a topic when the basis for it really isn't there. If your cynicism was "DE hasn't reworked a foundational system in years and have shown no intention to change that" or "they're afraid to touch something they might break, it'll never happen" I wouldn't be able to say much against it. While DE doesn't have a track record of designing around monetization, they have an unfortunate track record of not fixing things or taking opportunities to make things better. Of course even these things aren't 100%, Specters of the Rail did touch a core system to the game and the Endo rework was also a rework that went under the hood and could have very easily broken things. But at least with those cynical takes I would get it.

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

However, I feel like DE would most likely just add another different type of forma for this same purpose because it would be easier coding-wise.

I don't know about that, maybe.  But it's  easier to imagine a new shiny super forma prime facilitating new monetization and grind paths than Polarity 2.0 would.