I hate on Kill conditions on abilities (Gyre)

[Slayer-.]

 

9 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

 

 

I know you guys think this is a skill issue, but it's really not, my point is not about struggling to kill Steel path enemies. 

for me Warframes aren't the same as weapons, their unique powers allow them bypass most conditions, and become self sustainable most of the time.

imagine if you have to kill enemies to get the full effect of AMP or metronome, instead of activating the buffs directly from your actions.

I don't think it's a skill issue, I'll admit Gyres skills can sometimes be finicky to get going and stay going but once you do it's absolute heaven.

[Slayer-.]

9 hours ago, BansheePrime said:

I even use Cathode Current for extra on kill. 

Yes, that's in my build and it works well.

[0_The_F00l]

I also don't like external factors as a condition for a ility usage,

But gyre is rather tame in that regard.

I mean ... Killing is what most of the game is about. The cooldown on the other hand ... Can get a little dicey if it happens at just the wrong time.

 

Fortunately you can reset that by jumping into the void. So solutions already exist.

[AGGREBEE]

14 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

I love it more when abilities are self sustainable, don't require outside conditions to function.

yet Gyre is the worst example of that.

Gyre is mostly a CC frame with high damage on trash level missions below 100 and no steel path. yet she requires kills to keep her abilities going, both her 3 and her 4's augment.

not saying it's that hard to get kills in Warframe, but why couldn't they make it sustainable on it's own? or at least requiring 10 stacks of electric procs on an enemy to boost duration, instead of a kill.

on Steel path, I have to use Unairu to strip enemy armor and get an easier chance at killing enemies before cathode grace runs out and goes into a 60 second cooldown, on a frame that needs Varazin to survive.

I use Amprex with her so the damage falls off hard with armor, making it a necessity to use Unairu.

and what about that 60 second cooldown? that's so punishing, it feels like DE only designed Gyre to be a damage frame on start chart missions only.

I've had issues where I use Gyre's 3 (Cathode Grace) and not being able to get a single kill because my squad wiping out any enemies before I can even get to them. Suffice to say it feels really bad getting hit with that cooldown and getting zero value out it. This hasn't been as big of a problem for me whenever I use Gyre nowadays after AOE weps got nerfed into the ground, but it's always a worry Gyre players have. Additionally, because it needs enemies to get duration, this makes it total garbage in boss fights where trash mobs are either rare or don't appear at all. 

Citrine's damage reduction buff is more smartly designed in comparison. Sure, it needs kills to improve/maintain its effect, but at least you can refresh it by recasting it. Moreover, if your strength is high enough, you can have the damage reduction already capped when you cast it. I think the biggest problem is Cathode Grace's cooldown. Sure, losing your buff early sucks and you're out that energy, but if it weren't for the horrific cooldown I would wager there wouldn't be anywhere near as many complaints about it.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I mean in general, they are not my favourite, but I also don't really hate them or feel too strong a negative sensation. 

With Gyre specifically I find it fine, if not even positive. I do think it can be a bit punishing, with its long cool down, but to myself, that was more of a sign, that I shouldn't be using her powers so thoughtlessly. You can build them to be very powerful and effective in combination with your weapons, so the intent behind the weapon, is to use it when you know you are about to kill a lot of enemies to sustain its duration, so even if there is a lull in action, by then the duration is reset. After all, its cool down starts on activation, not the end, meaning, with good timing and usage, you can have it permanently active. Which to myself makes the ability a bit different and thus interesting. 

You can either build for longer duration if you want more leeway, or if you want to be a bit riskier, even go with negative duration, if you are willing to be even more tight with your windows of opportunity. 

I remember there was a lot of conversation about Gyres viability in Steel Path early on, and it use to puzzle me a little, because whilst she can be a bit squishy, I thought she was powerful enough and had enough CC to stay on the move, and kill enemies effectively and fast enough, that her relative lack of tanking options weren't a big drawback. Then I started to figure out, some of that conversation was more about play style preferences and habits. Which is fair enough, but it can factor into perceptions/results as well. I feel like Gyre is an all in sort of Warframe. You can't really sort of half commitment to using an ability and maybe around the corner there are some enemies. You sort of have to have good resource management, and timing, and then commit to it, get your kills, build momentum, and then do your best to keep that momentum as all the enemies around you die and you see red crits everywhere as you bullet jump, roll and weave around hoping you kill everything or CC everything before they can even look at you. 

Reminds me a bit of Mag and Xaku, or some combination of them both. 

[DreisterDino]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb (PSN)Hopper_Orouk:

on Steel path, I have to use Unairu to strip enemy armor and get an easier chance at killing enemies before cathode grace runs out and goes into a 60 second cooldown, on a frame that needs Varazin to survive

Just a random side note,  but I don't think this is a bad thing. I mean it's steel path - we should have to combine different elements of the game to be able to sustainably kill enemies (and it really doesn't matter if it's unairu+gyre or any other combination).

Otherwise, where is the difference to a low level mission regarding gameplay if everything is able to do everything on its own?

 

Edit: and if a player really can't do everything on their own in the highest level missions available (like you say you need vazarin to survive with gyre but also unairu to armor strip)... I know this got lost in Warframe over the last year's but..Teamplay? Again, it's the highest level missions available, maybe it's ok that this "forces" Teamplay at some point to keep going? And you could also bring specters to help with survivability and so on.

Edited June 10, 2023 by DreisterDino

[Corvid]

Something to note is that Gyre doesn't need to get the kill herself to extend the duration of Cathode Grace. She just has to have a status effect active on the enemy at the moment of their death, even if somebody else scores the killing blow.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Corvid

[Birdframe_Prime]

19 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

Warframes are also designed to kill, but it's more about how their power comes from them directly not from an outside source.

Grendel cannot use 90% of his kit without outside sources, and only the recent patch allows us to use his 3 without outside sources. Chroma's strongest damage buff can't be used without outside sources. Nova's AMD needs weapon damage to charge it. Mag only kills by amplifying weapons or outside sources. Baruuk cannot power up his kit without affecting enemies with his kit. Equinox cannot charge up her nuke without affecting outside sources. Garuda's damage reduction, damage boost, and healing cannot function without damaging or killing enemies. Harrow cannot charge his shields effectively without enemies, and cannot heal and restore energy without them. Hildryn cannot self-sustain her abilities without enemies. Nekros cannot use one of his abilities without killing enemies. Nezha's self-sustain functions on killing enemies. Nidus only gets Stacks by damaging enemies with his abilities. Octavia deals no damage without outside sources targeting her abilities. Revenant cannot utilise his full kit without Thralls. Sevagoth can't self-heal without enemies. Rhino's DR is specifically scaled from enemy damage. Styanax' CC function literally only works as CC if you hit an enemy with it first. Titania's buffs can only be harvested from enemies. Trinity's energy sustain comes from enemies. Xaku's infinitely scaling damage can only be harvested from enemies.

While many of these are not 'on kill' mechanics, they prove that only about ten frames in the game do not rely on 'outside sources' in order to function.

Not using outside sources to help abilities function is literally the worst idea for ability variety in a game with over fifty characters.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Birdframe_Prime

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Grendel cannot use 90% of his kit without outside sources, and only the recent patch allows us to use his 3 without outside sources. Chroma's strongest damage buff can't be used without outside sources. Nova's AMD needs weapon damage to charge it. Mag only kills by amplifying weapons or outside sources. Baruuk cannot power up his kit without affecting enemies with his kit. Equinox cannot charge up her nuke without affecting outside sources. Garuda's damage reduction, damage boost, and healing cannot function without damaging or killing enemies. Harrow cannot charge his shields effectively without enemies, and cannot heal and restore energy without them. Hildryn cannot self-sustain her abilities without enemies. Nekros cannot use one of his abilities without killing enemies. Nezha's self-sustain functions on killing enemies. Nidus only gets Stacks by damaging enemies with his abilities. Octavia deals no damage without outside sources targeting her abilities. Revenant cannot utilise his full kit without Thralls. Sevagoth can't self-heal without enemies. Rhino's DR is specifically scaled from enemy damage. Styanax' CC function literally only works as CC if you hit an enemy with it first. Titania's buffs can only be harvested from enemies. Trinity's energy sustain comes from enemies. Xaku's infinitely scaling damage can only be harvested from enemies.

While many of these are not 'on kill' mechanics, they prove that only about ten frames in the game do not rely on 'outside sources' in order to function.

Not using outside sources to help abilities function is literally the worst idea for ability variety in a game with over fifty characters.

that's not entirely accurate to what I'm complaining about, sure these Warframes require outside resources, but they're not as annoying as having to get a kill.

all Grendel has to do is tap 1 feast on enemies, Nova's AMD need weapon damage that you OWN in missions, and Baruuk doesn't need to kill to get his restraint off.

 

 

let me try to explain my point from a different angle, or rather a different Warframe...one of the worst things about Sevagoth is the fact that i need to kill enemies to fill the soul well.

if I didn't have problems killing enemies to get his shadow then i probably don't need his shadow...it's annoying, especially against boss-type missions where I need enemy density that I have to kill to get to the powerful ability that will help me kill.

Edited June 10, 2023 by (PSN)Hopper_Orouk

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

let me try to explain my point from a different angle, or rather a different Warframe...one of the worst things about Sevagoth is the fact that i need to kill enemies to fill the soul well.

Your preference is noted, but it's not reciprocated, nor is it a detriment overall to any of the frames or functions in the game that it's used by.

On-kill mechanics are a staple of the game, and a great means of forcing the player to be active against the hordes rather than passive and avoid them. While there are missions where evading or ignoring enemies is the norm, rather than the opposite, for the largest part of the game actually killing the enemies is the goal.

Not only encouraging, but actively benefiting, from the kills is a key trigger to be used by mechanics in the game.

While there are frames or mechanics that are, as it seems, 'punished' by not actively maintaining kills, the benefits they gain for actually getting those kills is by far and away more powerful than the benefits that simply putting those abilities on a timer or an Energy Drain would give.