Newest Wave Of Incarnons Will Be Purchasable With Platinum

[Felsagger]

47 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

Except that no one pointed a gun at you and force you into that hole. 

Then why the hole is carved in the first place? Make people trip and fall in? DE created a problem with the strategy of a monetized solution (Pay to skip, pay to rush, pay to progress). This is how DE does their business. They fabricate an artificial problem to sell a not so satisfactory solution so the player keeps begging for more like a beggar. 

 

It's classical cash grab in disguise. 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Felsagger

[Silligoose]

4 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

First, no I did not come to YOUR conclusion of what YOU think p2w is. I wish really find it strange for you to combine completely different scopes of purchasing just to fit your narrative. They are not the same at all. 

It is simple: If mechanics within Warfame, or any game, are examples that fit within the definition of p2w, then that game is p2w.

You quoted a definition. PublikDomain and I both gave examples of mechanics within Warframe that fall within the definition, showing that according to YOUR quoted definition the game is p2w. You even stated examples given work within the definition.

Let's look at your definition again and an abbreviated version of that conversation:

On 2023-06-23 at 2:02 AM, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

"Macmillan Dictionary:

noun uncountable. /ˌpeɪ tə ˈwɪn/ DEFINITIONS1. in online gaming, the practice of buying in-game items that give a player a very big advantage over others."

On 2023-06-24 at 2:34 AM, PublikDomain said:

Welcome to Warframe? Being faster is an advantage. How is it not?

I could also question why you're so hung up on people obtaining Rivens if you're so insistent that they provide no advantage. They provide no advantage, right? You don't need them, right? They're unnecessary, right? So why does it matter so much to you if players could more easily acquire these items by playing the game versus paying for them? You're really gonna make such a big stink every time over something you don't even think matters?

On 2023-06-24 at 4:15 AM, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

They gave two examples of pay-to-win usage. Both perfectly work within the definition so I don't get what you are talking about. 

You can go back to that thread to remind yourself of how it went down:

 

4 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Second, analytics exists to ensure a single person or group do not just get what they ask for. The feedback, for starters, has to actually consider all elements of gameplay before being accepted in use. Two or three very loud barkers do not represent the whole community...but always want to. It doesn't work that way bro.

Analytics is simply a process of analyzing data so entities may gain insights into said data, discover trends etc. If those analytics show that a "group of people" getting what they ask for leads to the greatest success, then you bet your ass many a business will cater to that group. At least fact check yourself before making statements about things you clearly know nothing about.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Silligoose

[Skoomaseller]

1 hour ago, RichardKam said:

Except that no one pointed a gun at you and force you into that hole. 

really disingenuous. when new content comes out, naturally most people will want to engage in it.

no one is forcing anyone to partake in it, yes, but this game is kept alive by being constantly updated with new content.

[Silligoose]

17 hours ago, Felsagger said:

This is why Warframe feels like a second job. Correct. 

The psychology of this game revolves around Pay to skip, Pay to rush, Pay to progress and pay for convenience. This is the STICK AND CARROT system of the game. People MUST recognize the Rube Goldberg Pachinko machine and understand how the business model works. 

The system that DE proposes is clearly acceptable under Canadian Law. This is a business model like any other. However the critique here is that such business model hampers the quality of the game in the strict definition of what a game is in classical terms. 

The project Warframe reduces to a VANITY PROJECT due to this approach. Designing a project of this nature compromises factors that are quotidianly seen in other great games. Due to this system the game suffers. 

Yes, this vanity project contains a successful business model but a downfall on game development. The name of the developer is irrelevant because this approach may affect the best developer in the market. There are many examples in the list of offenders. 343i tried but failed. Bungie tried but ended with 50/50 results. Now they return to ONI under the umbrella of Sony. 

Warframe SURVIVED ten years gravitating on this successful model where the developer skips the renovation of titles such as Warframe 2, Warframe 3 and all the publishing advertisements. The business model doesn't represent a problem for multi platform titles since the project accommodates the weakest platforms such as IOS phones. This happened due to the success of the market model DE proposed. This market model was and still is POPULAR IN ASIATIC countries. 

Should I reject what the project offer? Where I stand as a player. "To play or not to play". Well, if the market offers me great WARFRAME like experiences such as Titanfall 2 and Armored Core 6 Fires of the Rubicon then I'll navigate my boat towards those titles instead of Warframe. The series of Horizon Forbidden West, Frozen Wilds, Horizon Zero Dawn and Burning Shores gave me a good taste of other aspects that I enjoyed in Warframe. Let not forget the great boss battles made by From Software. 

Now Final Fantasy 16 provides a better approach in the PS5. It's strange that FF16 makes the NUMBER game more interesting with a true dynamical system. when we talk about the boss fights. 

Yes, DE, plugged a system that works as an economic model perfectly but is highly questionable for game design, quality delivery, and upgrade development. All their attempts will gravitate around the orbit of their business model as expected. In the end Warframe becomes an AVERAGE game in strict terms. It's not bad, it's not good, just average. 

Fortunately for me the game doesn't feel like a second job yet. I still think the game is pretty good, but I obviously agree that the business model is impacting the game negatively. That being said, watching some of the streams, hearing the devs' thoughts and in going through the Reddit AMA, I also think the business model is but part of the reason for some of the questionable decisions that have been made. We're talking about people who backed the idea for some forms of AoE to not benefit from the headshot multiplier because "a flame thrower won't do more damage on a head" (paraphrasing), or "power fantasy and challenge are at odds with each other" (paraphrasing). This may simply be part of the act in playing salespeople, but some of the things they say are perplexing.

There are some other games out there that one can enjoy, but I would still like for this game to realize more of its potential.

[Felsagger]

21 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Fortunately for me the game doesn't feel like a second job yet. I still think the game is pretty good

It's good for what it offers, yes of course. That's perfectly reasonable. That's why I play half hour fridays only. I think this way because my time is way too limited for video games. I have responsibilities everywhere. It's hard the life of responsibilities but when we grow older we must reduce our hobby hours. There are other tasks that demand priority.

21 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

, but I obviously agree that the business model is impacting the game negatively. That being said, watching some of the streams, hearing the devs' thoughts and in going through the Reddit AMA, I also think the business model is but part of the reason for some of the questionable decisions that have been made.

100 percent I agree here. 

21 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

We're talking about people who backed the idea for some forms of AoE to not benefit from the headshot multiplier because "a flame thrower won't do more damage on a head" (paraphrasing), or "power fantasy and challenge are at odds with each other" (paraphrasing). This may simply be part of the act in playing salespeople, but some of the things they say are perplexing.

There are some other games out there that one can enjoy, but I would still like for this game to realize more of its potential.

I still believe that too. There's much to be done with the game. 

[(XBOX)K1jker]

vor 20 Stunden schrieb Hypernaut1:

I don't think it's p2w. I think "paying" to not play the game is silly. 

I like to pay for something new and use that equipment to either play the new stuff or old stuff.. there's nothing wrong with that. :(

[SneakyErvin]

22 hours ago, Silligoose said:

 

Here you are again making the same inaccurate statements, like saying "WF doesn't have a competitive aspect", to which I reply, just like before:

• "Conclave is PvP. That is an example of WF having a competitive aspect.
• Some activities have leaderboards. That is an example of WF having a competitive aspect.
• Third party website are used by players to log their speedruns. That is an example of WF having a competitive aspect.

They arent competative, they are optional. And something like a third party implementation does not make any game p2w. Conclave for instance has no lasting impact on anything in the game. Leaderboards have zero rewards tied to them, so it doesnt matter if you are on them or not, they add nothing to your progress and so on. As mentioned by me earlier, others and me here, is that in order for something to be P2W it needs to give significant advantages over other players. Ontop of that there is as I said the non-linear power progression of the game, which means that free non-purchasable stuff is several times better than what you can spend plat on.

If conclave was competative and if power progression was linear and if the best weapons could be bought for plat, then yes WF could be considered P2W. Neither of that applies.

22 hours ago, Silligoose said:

A game is considered p2w when a player can gain an advantage over non-paying peers. In Warframe, that advantage is not having to grind as much, skipping the grind altogether, not having to wait due to timegates etc.

No, you are straight up wrong on that. None of the things you mention equals P2W, since the terms to describe the things you mention there came before the idea of P2W and have never been considered P2W in games like WF. Again, there needs to be a significant advantage over other players for it to be P2W. Situations where you just cannot keep up as a non-paying player, where it is also a drawback not being able to keep up. Like in Black Desert where you can buy upgrades for items, which makes you stronger versus other players, or cosmetics that improve XP gain since the game has no level cap and where the level gap between players reduces the chance for the lower player to hit the higher. Or even the maids and butlers that lets you dump items when farming so you dont have to physically run back to where you parked the wagon or in worst cases ride all the way back to your house. Which also translates to more XP gained per minute, which in turn increases your power over players without those items. Which in turn you can more easily push lower players away from good farm spots which again improves your XP gain and power versus them in a cascading way.

[Hypernaut1]

39 minutes ago, (XBOX)K1jker said:

I like to pay for something new and use that equipment to either play the new stuff or old stuff.. there's nothing wrong with that. :(

That's understandable. I don't get people that say they want to pay because they hate grinding. What else are you going to do with the weapon?

Edited July 2, 2023 by Hypernaut1

[Silligoose]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

They arent competative, they are optional. And something like a third party implementation does not make any game p2w. Conclave for instance has no lasting impact on anything in the game. Leaderboards have zero rewards tied to them, so it doesnt matter if you are on them or not, they add nothing to your progress and so on. As mentioned by me earlier, others and me here, is that in order for something to be P2W it needs to give significant advantages over other players. Ontop of that there is as I said the non-linear power progression of the game, which means that free non-purchasable stuff is several times better than what you can spend plat on.

If conclave was competative and if power progression was linear and if the best weapons could be bought for plat, then yes WF could be considered P2W. Neither of that applies.

No, you are straight up wrong on that. None of the things you mention equals P2W, since the terms to describe the things you mention there came before the idea of P2W and have never been considered P2W in games like WF. Again, there needs to be a significant advantage over other players for it to be P2W. Situations where you just cannot keep up as a non-paying player, where it is also a drawback not being able to keep up. Like in Black Desert where you can buy upgrades for items, which makes you stronger versus other players, or cosmetics that improve XP gain since the game has no level cap and where the level gap between players reduces the chance for the lower player to hit the higher. Or even the maids and butlers that lets you dump items when farming so you dont have to physically run back to where you parked the wagon or in worst cases ride all the way back to your house. Which also translates to more XP gained per minute, which in turn increases your power over players without those items. Which in turn you can more easily push lower players away from good farm spots which again improves your XP gain and power versus them in a cascading way.

Those are examples of competitive aspects in Warframe. Conclave is a competitive aspect of Warframe regardless of whether it "has a lasting impact on anything in the game". Leaderboards are a competitive aspect regardless of whether there are rewards tied to it. I also did not say players using a third party website means a game is p2w. This is just classic you again, twisting people's words and insinuating they meant something they didn't.

I'm familiar with your proclivity for adding to definitions so you can claim something does, or doesn't, fall within it. We see that with p2w's definition and you adding nonsense such "linear progression" as being some sort of prerequisite, despite it not being one. Hell, you can't even recognize what competitive aspects are, again trying to add to the definition by saying something isn't competitive because "has no lasting impact" or because "it has no reward.". 

We've danced this dance before. There is little point in me discussing this with you when basic concepts elude you, You are unable to understand definitions, your ego prevents you from learning and you cling to your deceptive ways.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Silligoose

[Felsagger]

16 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Those are examples of competitive aspects in Warframe. Conclave is a competitive aspect of Warframe regardless of whether it "has a lasting impact on anything in the game". Leaderboards are a competitive aspect regardless of whether there are rewards tied to it. I also did not say players using a third party website means a game is p2w. This is just classic you again, twisting people's words and insinuating they meant something they didn't.

I'm familiar with your proclivity for adding to definitions so you can claim something does, or doesn't, fall within it. We see that with p2w's definition and you adding nonsense such "linear progression" as being some sort of prerequisite, despite it not being one. Hell, you can't even recognize what competitive aspects are, again trying to add to the definition by saying something isn't competitive because "has no lasting impact" or because "it has no reward.". 

We've danced this dance before. There is little point in me discussing this with you when basic concepts elude you, You are unable to definitions, your ego prevents you from learning and you cling to your deceptive ways.

Completely agree. 

That's why I admit when I do not know something or when I make a mistake on judgment or both. I ask users here, ask Chat GTP or ask other players what I am getting wrong. This is how I get my intelligence and knowledge. There is a world of things that I do not know and there are a world of chances to learn new things. We all have to climb that stairs one way or the other. 

When I study mathematics and physics, the asiatic mind is at another level, let's not even talk about how intelligent are the Rumanian mathematicians and those guys/girls from Denmark in the fields of mathematical physics. I got their books for a reason. Anyway, I learned here new concepts like intrinsic and extrinsic and the difficulties of understanding clean definitions. 

Yes people loves moving the goalposts adding conditions and new terms over existing definitions to make their point valid. This shouldn't be the way. Bending the truth towards our own agendas and points of views only creates more trouble. This world is cruel in many ways. It challenges our naiveness every second of our existence. :P

 

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Felsagger

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

That's understandable. I don't get people that say they want to pay because they hate grinding. What else are you going to do with the weapon?

I do agree with what you said here. 

We experiment with the weapon adding a new attribute that the weapon doesn't have or at least try. Warframe did something good. EXPERIMENTATION. We want to pull attributes of items on directions that such Item never had even just for the fun of it. 

We invented the concept 'meme builds' for a reason. :P

[Silligoose]

4 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Completely agree. 

That's why I admit when I do not know something or when I make a mistake on judgment or both. I ask users here, ask Chat GTP or ask other players what I am getting wrong. This is how I get my intelligence and knowledge. There is a world of things that I do not know and there are a world of chances to learn new things. We all have to climb that stairs one way or the other. 

When I study mathematics and physics, the asiatic mind is at another level, let's not even talk about how intelligent are the Rumanian mathematicians and those guys/girls from Denmark in the fields of mathematical physics. I got their books for a reason. Anyway, I learned here new concepts like intrinsic and extrinsic and the difficulties of understanding clean definitions. 

Yes people loves moving the goalposts adding conditions and new terms to the existing definitions to make their point valid. This shouldn't be the way. Bending the truth to our own agendas and points of views only creates more trouble. This world is cruel in many ways. It challenges our naiveness every second of our existence. :P

This is a great mindset to have and one I strive for as well. Part of the reason I engage in discussions of various natures is to learn.

Had people not been willing to stay open-minded, we most likely would not have advanced in the various fields of science to even close to the extent we have.

[Felsagger]

I do admit that Warframe made me question many things on game design outside the market model of course. One of the aspects that Warframe has is the modularity of concept on everything and the idea of modification on warframe, tenno, the drifter, weapons and companion. Even the Rail Jack and the K drive can be modified. No other game has this. 

I think that the incarnon does something right. Having a second "incarnation" of the same weapon opens another possibility on the weapon itself. At least I would love a revamp on the skin itself, the improvement on the missing attribute that the weapon needs and of course two types of alternate fire or at least a new one with what the weapon has. For the designer the creativity is a bit tighter but isn't DE the developer who made Unreal tournament and the popularizing the "alt fire" on weapons? 

DE knows this. They already did Unreal tournament series and Unreal. They know the business of weapons and GOOD WEAPONS. I wish there were more layers on these incarnons giving weapons some justice. 

For example the Gorgon. I want the gorgon have a longer range, a precision recoil and an alternate fire. Let us think for a moment what Legion has in Titanfall 2. His Gatling gun has a shield, it has a charged six barreled buckshot and even homing pseudo missile bullets on locked targets. That is an example. 

Another Incarnon weapon could be the famous Tonkor. At least I want to see the Tonkor reach the versatility of Junkrat grenade launcher where I can fire a cluster of rounded grenades, decide if I want them to explode on targets or simply make it similar like the Secura Penta where I leave mines with a detonator. Junkrat has the sticky mines and the grenade launcher weapon. We had that with the Tonkor. 

I am not asking for a new type of projectile in each weapon but work with alternate fires on the weapon themselves. At least this started with few Incarnons I saw. 

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

Those are examples of competitive aspects in Warframe. Conclave is a competitive aspect of Warframe regardless of whether it "has a lasting impact on anything in the game". Leaderboards are a competitive aspect regardless of whether there are rewards tied to it. I also did not say players using a third party website means a game is p2w. This is just classic you again, twisting people's words and insinuating they meant something they didn't.

I'm familiar with your proclivity for adding to definitions so you can claim something does, or doesn't, fall within it. We see that with p2w's definition and you adding nonsense such "linear progression" as being some sort of prerequisite, despite it not being one. Hell, you can't even recognize what competitive aspects are, again trying to add to the definition by saying something isn't competitive because "has no lasting impact" or because "it has no reward.". 

We've danced this dance before. There is little point in me discussing this with you when basic concepts elude you, You are unable to definitions, your ego prevents you from learning and you cling to your deceptive ways.

No lol, those are not competative. They are activities done for "fun", where winning or losing doesnt actually matter a bit. It is nowhere near the environment of the games where the term P2W was coined. The games prior to it were like WF and the definitions for those games did not change when the term P2W was introduced, since those games where still the same old where the former terms still applied just as well as they did before. If you didnt imply that a third party site makes the game P2W, then why on earth did you even decide to include it. Since when you add something like that it only implies one thing. Because if you do not imply it means P2W, then there is zero point adding it to the discussion on a 3 point list. You straight up use it to claim that WF has competative aspects, even though the third party site isnt even part of the game itself.

And no I'm not talking about "linear progression" I'm talking about "linear power progression" as in new weapons and equipment released being better than the previous "tier". Which doesnt apply to WF. Which in itself also applies to both conclave and leaderboards that you claim are P2W (or makes WF P2W) since they are competative in your mind. Even though you can use free items in both that are better than anything you can buy, and spending doesnt automatically mean you have an edge over others in those content pieces of the game due to the same reason, that free weapons in this games are also top tier options.

And it isnt competative when it has no lasting impact or no reward. It's like calling Battlefield a competative shooter when there are actual competative shooters out there that makes you compete for a top spot that actually matters and so on. In a online/MMO game it gets competative when you can fight over a spot that lets you farm/level, or kill others for their loot or whatever you need, or go out and conquor the keep of an enemy guild/clan/faction that brings home a lasting buff aslong as you can defend it. Kinda like real life sports or conflicts for that matter.

[Silligoose]

32 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No lol, those are not competative. They are activities done for "fun", where winning or losing doesnt actually matter a bit. It is nowhere near the environment of the games where the term P2W was coined. The games prior to it were like WF and the definitions for those games did not change when the term P2W was introduced, since those games where still the same old where the former terms still applied just as well as they did before. If you didnt imply that a third party site makes the game P2W, then why on earth did you even decide to include it. Since when you add something like that it only implies one thing. Because if you do not imply it means P2W, then there is zero point adding it to the discussion on a 3 point list. You straight up use it to claim that WF has competative aspects, even though the third party site isnt even part of the game itself.

And no I'm not talking about "linear progression" I'm talking about "linear power progression" as in new weapons and equipment released being better than the previous "tier". Which doesnt apply to WF. Which in itself also applies to both conclave and leaderboards that you claim are P2W (or makes WF P2W) since they are competative in your mind. Even though you can use free items in both that are better than anything you can buy, and spending doesnt automatically mean you have an edge over others in those content pieces of the game due to the same reason, that free weapons in this games are also top tier options.

And it isnt competative when it has no lasting impact or no reward. It's like calling Battlefield a competative shooter when there are actual competative shooters out there that makes you compete for a top spot that actually matters and so on. In a online/MMO game it gets competative when you can fight over a spot that lets you farm/level, or kill others for their loot or whatever you need, or go out and conquor the keep of an enemy guild/clan/faction that brings home a lasting buff aslong as you can defend it. Kinda like real life sports or conflicts for that matter.

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Hell, you can't even recognize what competitive aspects are, again trying to add to the definition by saying something isn't competitive because "has no lasting impact" or because "it has no reward.". 

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

We've danced this dance before. There is little point in me discussing this with you when basic concepts elude you, You are unable to understand definitions, your ego prevents you from learning and you cling to your deceptive ways.

COMPETITIVE | English meaning - Cambridge Dictionary

Competitive definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary (collinsdictionary.com)

Competitive Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com

Competitive Definition & Meaning | Britannica Dictionary

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Silligoose

[Felsagger]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No lol, those are not competitive. They are activities done for "fun", where winning or losing doesn't actually matter a bit. It is nowhere near the environment of the games where the term P2W was coined. The games prior to it were like WF and the definitions for those games did not change when the term P2W was introduced, since those games where still the same old where the former terms still applied just as well as they did before. If you did not imply that a third party site makes the game P2W, then why on earth did you even decide to include it. Since when you add something like that it only implies one thing. Because if you do not imply it means P2W, then there is zero point adding it to the discussion on a 3 point list. You straight up use it to claim that WF has competitive aspects, even though the third party site isnt even part of the game itself.

Ok, let us consider this. 

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And no I'm not talking about "linear progression" I'm talking about "linear power progression" as in new weapons and equipment released being better than the previous "tier". Which does not apply to WF. Which in itself also applies to both conclave and leaderboards that you claim are P2W (or makes WF P2W) since they are competitive in your mind. Even though you can use free items in both that are better than anything you can buy, and spending doesn't automatically mean you have an edge over others in those content pieces of the game due to the same reason, that free weapons in this games are also top tier options.

This too. 

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And it isn't competitive when it has no lasting impact or no reward. It's like calling Battlefield a competitive shooter when there are actual competitive shooters out there that makes you compete for a top spot that actually matters and so on. In a online/MMO game it gets competitive when you can fight over a spot that lets you farm/level, or kill others for their loot or whatever you need, or go out and conquer the keep of an enemy guild/clan/faction that brings home a lasting buff as long as you can defend it. Kinda like real life sports or conflicts for that matter.

And this. 

Keeping in mind these sentences I'll try to work a concept. 

We have issues with the term when is introduced in a PvE environment but seems straight and forward when we apply the term on a PvP. As far I know anything that gives you an advantage, considerable of course, may enter the definition of Pay to Win. The question here is the following:  How the P2W  concept applies to warframe? 

The competition happens on the PRODUCTION OF PLATINUM. This is the ULTIMATE goal the game has despite of the regular player NEVER EVER uses a dime or even one platinum. If we have Rivens, we kick enemies better. If we get forma we can adapt to meta faster. If we get PLATINUM we can dictate our luck for our favor purchasing god rolls in the market. Anything that gives us this advantage may be considered a pay to win model IN THIS GAME not in a classical PvP game. Why? We get rewards faster and produce platinum with the warranty of having a positive "revenue". 

Platinum gives us the following: 

Pay to Rush

Pay to Skip 

Pay to Progress. 

Any player can simply have zero platinum and enjoy the whole game WITHOUT the artifacts and cosmetics the game offer. That comes from real money. But people who wants to keep on the cycle needs to spend less time producing more platinum investing less effort. A player who doesn't have this advantage must deal with the time sinks, time gates and resource gates. It means more time needed for the production of platinum if the player wants to skip the tedious parts. 

This is basic common sense that the game provides. Any player with a fair mastery rank and friend of a warlord on a clan already know this. This is basic common knowledge. Let me leave you with this question: Who will have more fun in this game, a player that has 500,000 platinum starting the game or a player that has zero platinum starting the game? 

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Felsagger

[(PSN)Unstar]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

Who will have more fun in this game, a player that has 500,000 platinum starting the game or a player that has zero platinum starting the game? 

My hypothesis is that the player starting out with 500,000 platinum will have less fun, because they will immediately be able to go Supermarket Sweeps in the market and buy a huge amount of content that they could otherwise have fun playing the game to earn.  That's a huge trap they could fall into!  The core of Warframe's game loop is doing activities to earn rewards, and if you skip past the activity and just get the rewards, you deprive yourself of the opportunity to naturally experience that content alongside the carrots that make it feel rewarding.

In my experience as a mostly free-to-play player, I've found that the majority of Warframe's farms are fun and reasonable.  There are of course exceptions, and subjectivity is going to mean that what one person likes another dislikes, but generally speaking when you skip the grind you skip the game, so for a player who likes the game, skipping is a bad idea.

All of that said, I do think it's worth acknowledging that having a limited amount of platinum can improve your game experience.  I was free-to-play for a long time, and I used my starter platinum to buy the Uru Syandana, which was shiny and flowed behind me as I jumped around.  It was "just cosmetic", but it meaningfully improved my game experience and made me happier.  Cosmetics can lead to enjoyment, and I don't want that to go unacknowledged.

But that said, I'm glad I played the game with platinum feeling like a severely limited resource for a lengthy period before finally putting my own money into the game, because that allowed me the opportunity to learn the difference between what could be earned and what could only be bought.  And armed with that knowledge, the purchases I make don't deprive me of the potential for enjoyment.  Someone who is just starting the game generally wouldn't have that knowledge, so a near-endless supply of platinum could easily result in a hefty amount of unintentional self-sabotage.

[Felsagger]

25 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

My hypothesis is that the player starting out with 500,000 platinum will have less fun, because they will immediately be able to go Supermarket Sweeps in the market and buy a huge amount of content that they could otherwise have fun playing the game to earn.  That's a huge trap they could fall into!  The core of Warframe's game loop is doing activities to earn rewards, and if you skip past the activity and just get the rewards, you deprive yourself of the opportunity to naturally experience that content alongside the carrots that make it feel rewarding.

In my experience as a mostly free-to-play player, I've found that the majority of Warframe's farms are fun and reasonable.  There are of course exceptions, and subjectivity is going to mean that what one person likes another dislikes, but generally speaking when you skip the grind you skip the game, so for a player who likes the game, skipping is a bad idea.

All of that said, I do think it's worth acknowledging that having a limited amount of platinum can improve your game experience.  I was free-to-play for a long time, and I used my starter platinum to buy the Uru Syandana, which was shiny and flowed behind me as I jumped around.  It was "just cosmetic", but it meaningfully improved my game experience and made me happier.  Cosmetics can lead to enjoyment, and I don't want that to go unacknowledged.

But that said, I'm glad I played the game with platinum feeling like a severely limited resource for a lengthy period before finally putting my own money into the game, because that allowed me the opportunity to learn the difference between what could be earned and what could only be bought.  And armed with that knowledge, the purchases I make don't deprive me of the potential for enjoyment.  Someone who is just starting the game generally wouldn't have that knowledge, so a near-endless supply of platinum could easily result in a hefty amount of unintentional self-sabotage.

Let me start from the beginning here. 

 

How do you see games in general? What they are to you? This is the real topic of discussion behind all of these.

I see games as a tale or a story where a character performs certain actions with a sense of progression. My approach is the classical pay to play model where the game is a series of levels, items and tasks that has a beginning and end with certain requirement on skill and and challenge. I do have the preference of the game with the PvP and PvE balance such as Titanfall 2 or the classical playthrough. 

I see warframe as a playthrough not as a farming game. The design of this game is a FARMING game. I am fully aware of the nature and attributes of the game. The way I see games in general is similar how I see Chess. There are a set of rules, a set of skills, a beginning, an end, condition of repetition and actualization. The concept of story and character evolution is a degree of immersion that I consider depending on the nature of the game if the story is of my interest.  

 

[(PSN)Unstar]

22 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

How do you see games in general? What they are to you? This is the real topic of discussion behind all of these.

Ooooh, such a big question, and one I don't have a succinct answer for.  For me, games are an artistic medium, and as such that makes them capable of providing a diverse array of experiences.  So for me, this question is like asking, "How do you see books in general?  How do you see film in general?"  Because you've got documentaries and biographies, you've got propaganda and edutainment, you've got historical epics and sci-fi fantasy, you've got gameshows and reality TV, you've got low-budget art films and big budget Marvel, you've got news programs and Goosebumps and choose-your-own-adventure, and so on and so forth.

A game can just be something that keeps half my brain amused and occupied while I listen to a podcast and unwind after a long day.  A game can also be an all-consuming experience that teaches me new ideas and perspectives and makes me weep.  A game can also be a mechanical or intellectual challenge that I face off against for the fun of it.  A game can be a story, it can be a tournament, it can be a canvas for my own creativity, or it can be something to partially pay attention to while I chat with friends.  And surely it can be even more, or less, or something altogether different.

 

33 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

I see warframe as a playthrough not as a farming game. The design of this game is a FARMING game.

I love and respect this.  I think that's one of the great things about Warframe, is that it can be a lot of different things to a lot of different people.  Some people don't care about the story, some only care about the story.  Heck, I'm sure there are some people who even play Warframe primarily for the PvP!  In the end, Warframe offers a variety of possibilities and we as players get to choose what that means for us and how we'll engage with it.

To me personally, Warframe is mostly a game that I play for the sake of the gameplay experience it offers.  I like being an acrobatic Warframe and I like being a Duviri Drifter, and on occasion I enjoy being a Railjack or a Necramech.  I like facing interesting challenges and using my problem-solving skills to make builds that help me overcome them in enjoyable ways in spite of my arthritis.  It's a game where I can express my creativity and artistic side by making interesting builds and aesthetics for my gear and companions.  I also really like the game's story and lore, though it's less frequent that we get new servings of that so while it does permeate the world, it doesn't feel like as much a part of the game as it would if I were playing a finite single-player game.  Warframe is a game that I generally play a little bit everyday, where DE regularly provides new toys and playgrounds that I enjoy discovering and unlocking at my own pace.  I could probably ramble on further, but hopefully that's a decent overview about my relationship with the game.

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Ooooh, such a big question, and one I don't have a succinct answer for.  For me, games are an artistic medium, and as such that makes them capable of providing a diverse array of experiences.  So for me, this question is like asking

The answers can be very accurate. 

1 hour ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

, "How do you see books in general?

Archive.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

  How do you see film in general?" 

Construction.

1 hour ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Because you've got documentaries and biographies , you've got propaganda and edutainment, you've got historical epics and sci-fi fantasy, you've got gameshows and reality TV, you've got low-budget art films and big budget Marvel, you've got news programs and Goosebumps and choose-your-own-adventure, and so on and so forth.

Still a construction. 

1 hour ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

A game can just be something that keeps half my brain amused and occupied while I listen to a podcast and unwind after a long day.

You see games as distraction. That's perfectly fair. It's one of the main purposes. 

1 hour ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

  A game can also be an all-consuming experience that teaches me new ideas and perspectives and makes me weep.  A game can also be a mechanical or intellectual challenge that I face off against for the fun of it.  A game can be a story, it can be a tournament, it can be a canvas for my own creativity, or it can be something to partially pay attention to while I chat with friends.  And surely it can be even more, or less, or something altogether different.

So you do NOT exclude skill out of your definition. This is interesting. 

This gives me a clean idea how you handle the subject of discussion with your approach. Can you see games as stress tests? Think that for a while. 

1 hour ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

I love and respect this.  I think that's one of the great things about Warframe, is that it can be a lot of different things to a lot of different people.  Some people don't care about the story, some only care about the story.  Heck, I'm sure there are some people who even play Warframe primarily for the PvP!  In the end, Warframe offers a variety of possibilities and we as players get to choose what that means for us and how we'll engage with it.

And we are at the point that the subject of discussion is Warframe. 

While we are at it let us have a clean definition of our subject. Warframe is a GAAS F2P, P2P project. I do not use the word game. I do not consider Warframe a game. I consider Warframe a Pachinko machine or a Rube Goldberg mechanism built with classical algorithms that are used to build games. Of course you see Zbrush, Autocad, Maya, Rhinoceros, Solidworks among many other programs used to model vector graphics. 

If we study state machines and understand how things like Greedy Algorithms works and Turing Machines behaves you will get a better idea. For the definition we are going to use for the greedy algorithm is the following. A greedy algorithm is any algorithm that follows the problem solving heuristic of making the locally optimal choice at each stage. And of course a Turing Machine is a device that helps us investigate the extent and limitations of what can be computed.  

What Warframe does? Optimization and of course investigate the behavior of humans of a market model. Warframe could be seen as a sociological and psychological canvas where human interactions are captured such as the price behavior, the change of initial conditions or meta and the distribution of interest. Of course the project Warframe is simply a business model that generates money. We could think of a game based on chances and some sort of skill. 

This:  

And this: 

 

Warframe is a clean project based on the game of NUMBERS. That's it. We can talk about probability, statistics and random number generators inserted in a game environment where the possibility of a Greedy Machine like behavior may occur (meta and optimization or mini/max) and the classical games of chances on the things that can be computed such as classical parameters brought from RPG games (the quest of the largest red numbers). 

Now that we have an idea where we stand let us continue with your comment. 

1 hour ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

To me personally, Warframe is mostly a game that I play for the sake of the gameplay experience it offers.

Yes, Warframe can be seen as a testing ground for different forms of game play. DE decided to build an encyclopedia of trends in this project. Many forms of gameplay are archived in Warframe. If you play other games you may find in Overwatch 2 a subset of gameplay treated in Warframe. 

One of of those is the classical grappling hook that one of the frame has. Valkyr

Another style is of course the zip line found in another frame. Ivara. 

The list of these experimental game plays are recollected for a span of ten years since the beginning of Warframe. 

1 hour ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

  I like being an acrobatic Warframe and I like being a Duviri Drifter, and on occasion I enjoy being a Railjack or a Necramech.  I like facing interesting challenges and using my problem-solving skills to make builds that help me overcome them in enjoyable ways in spite of my arthritis.  It's a game where I can express my creativity and artistic side by making interesting builds and aesthetics for my gear and companions.  I also really like the game's story and lore, though it's less frequent that we get new servings of that so while it does permeate the world, it doesn't feel like as much a part of the game as it would if I were playing a finite single-player game.  Warframe is a game that I generally play a little bit everyday, where DE regularly provides new toys and playgrounds that I enjoy discovering and unlocking at my own pace.  I could probably ramble on further, but hopefully that's a decent overview about my relationship with the game.

You see this as a virtual alternative that provides placebo helps you move your dopamine and serotonin. That's a perfectly understandable reference and quite relatable to many players. 

Since you share your perception of the project. I'll share mine. I used Warframe to understand other games and play other games. It's a trampoline to see how the concept of gaming is extended and interpreted by other developers. The game of chances happens everywhere. the RNG algorithmic entropy approach happens everywhere and the balance between intrinsic and extrinsic happens everywhere.  

I do not care much about lore, characters or items in general. All of that is simply incidental. On this I am not critiquing Warframe as a market product. This is how I perceive the product that DE presented to me for the span of these ten years. 

The topic:

Now I will try to answer few of your questions: 

"Someone who is just starting the game generally wouldn't have that knowledge, so a near-endless supply of platinum could easily result in a hefty amount of unintentional self-sabotage."

Warframe present itself as a play through game. The mechanism and actuators that the game has are comprehended when the player engage the project for longer periods of time. I was imprecise with my premise. 

If we have experienced players who already went throughout the game and want to return. I am dead sure that the guy who has 500,000 platinum will have more fun since he will skip the tedious part and enjoy the reward. This player will look at Warframe as a GAME not as a project of probability and statistics. He/she will se the experience as a game that has a start, an end and replay value without the hassle of redundancy or repetitive actions such as farming. 

Incarnon are reviews of old weapons. The reward is the excessive power of the weapon to an effective level in SP Duviri. With all honesty I do not have any interest on doing long runs in this game other than exploring the ideas that DE has at the moment they launch another update. For a year I don't play much other than one hour fridays. Up to this point I know too well the project and know what to do. Hence my interest of course is not the same than before. 

Of course this doesn't render Warframe a bad experience. I simply outgrew the experience. 

 

Anyway, thanks for the replay. I got a good time reading your messages. Different points of views are always good food for interesting conversations. :P

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Felsagger

[SneakyErvin]

23 hours ago, Silligoose said:

COMPETITIVE | English meaning - Cambridge Dictionary

Competitive definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary (collinsdictionary.com)

Competitive Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com

Competitive Definition & Meaning | Britannica Dictionary

Not everything applies 1:1 in games regarding terms compared to how they apply in real life.

22 hours ago, Felsagger said:

We have issues with the term when is introduced in a PvE environment but seems straight and forward when we apply the term on a PvP. As far I know anything that gives you an advantage, considerable of course, may enter the definition of Pay to Win. The question here is the following:  How the P2W  concept applies to warframe? 

Because it is a term specifically coined for PvP games where the following terms you mention didnt suffice.

22 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Pay to Rush

Pay to Skip 

Pay to Progress. 

So how the concept applies to WF, well it is simple, it doesnt. As you also point out, considerable advantage. There is none like that to see in WF since it is all a matter of preference. What can be a "win" to some, such as skipping content and getting it "nao!" is not a benefit to another. While in a competative game the benefit is distinct and concrete, like I mentioned being able to take over someone elses farm spot by killing them or simply outkilling them due to having power obtained through cash. Which are things we have nothing of in WF because we dont have popular public farm spots nor do we have things like individual loot. When we are at the same place we are there to work together and everyone is rewarded exactly the same.

22 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Any player can simply have zero platinum and enjoy the whole game WITHOUT the artifacts and cosmetics the game offer. That comes from real money. But people who wants to keep on the cycle needs to spend less time producing more platinum investing less effort. A player who doesn't have this advantage must deal with the time sinks, time gates and resource gates. It means more time needed for the production of platinum if the player wants to skip the tedious parts. 

This is basic common sense that the game provides. Any player with a fair mastery rank and friend of a warlord on a clan already know this. This is basic common knowledge. Let me leave you with this question: Who will have more fun in this game, a player that has 500,000 platinum starting the game or a player that has zero platinum starting the game? 

Which is all tied to conveniance and rooted in personal preference. There is no guaranteed advatage over someone else by someone buying a cosmetic they like. Personally for me I sit with extremely few cosmetic while also using several base frame skins even on Primes and would love the same option for weapons.

As to which player has most fun? Just from my own experience the guy without 500.000 plat. Been through so many free games by now, bought stuff in some to skip, like some heroes in Marvel Heroes and other things in other games that have reduces the farming need. After which I've sat there with the question "why did I go and do that!?" since now there was less reason to play some content and the purpose of the game is uhm playing and farming. In WF I would never dream of doing the same, since I have that knowledge now regarding how it will impact me.

 

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

So how the concept applies to WF, well it is simple, it doesn't. 

 

The king has the last word. Who are we to question his infinite knowledge. 

"There is none like that to see in WF since it is all a matter of preference."

In other words making platinum is a matter of preference? 

 

This dude lost his marbles. 

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, Felsagger said:

"There is none like that to see in WF since it is all a matter of preference."

In other words making platinum is a matter of preference? 

Indeed it is a preference. The platinum we need is obtained passively as we play, since the only thing we need are slots. Which are also just QoL upgrades in the longrun and adds no actual significant advantage over someone else. Having more platinum does not make you win over someone else. If someone feels they have lost because someone else has more plat than them you are pretty much just at a "keeping up with the Joneses" situation. While at the same time the guy with more plat may not feel like he has won over someone with less.

They are in the end all made up preferences, personal for each player, with no actual win/loss scenario. As opposed to games that have actual competative elements that arent just personal preferences regarding how you apporach the game, where there is a clear win/loss outcome involved.

But if you think WF has any actual element where you can effectively lose to someone else for not spending plat/cash please do tell.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

21 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But if you think WF has any actual element where you can effectively lose to someone else for not spending plat/cash please do tell.

And this is exactly why I support it. It's a total of 5 incarnon adapters. You still need the weapon, MR  the progression through the quests AND Steel Path to gain a ticket to entry. 

I mean if I can bypass the farms for Ash, Khora, Mesa through The Circuit, or buy them for plat on day 1 then I don't see a reason why Incarnon Adapoters can't also be acquired through platinum.

It's literally the same thing. Exepct in regards to Warframes, it's far more impactful on the player vs the Incarnons.

Are they powerful? Yes but what's more impactful? A Warframe is objectively more impactful.

Especially when you consider the entry requirements for an incarnon Adaptor.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Do we know how much they’ll sell for? I’ll often have a couple hundred plat on-hand for general purpose from my dropping a few coffees’ worth towards the game every so often, and I may be tempted to purchase one or two