I’m addicted to buildcrafting

[_Euphoria_]

I am usually going by day and suddenly have this thought:

”Ohh, what if I subsume this to X warframe and then add that weapon and Y mod so they synergize”

then I feel euphoric, cant wait to get back home and try it… 

… and when I do I do make some monster build but the worst part is there is always the dreadful “ Now what?” part. 
There isnt any ultra endgame content to put my builds in use. 

I log out and wait for the next crazy build idea… wish there was content to reward me for making actually min maxed builds

[CephalonCarnage]

reduce the mod power level of your frame and go against lower level enemies.

Or remove the mods entirely and run low level enemies. The challenge is there, you can see your synergy working. It doesn't have to be the power imbalanced "end game" that never will exist.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

44 minutes ago, _Euphoria_ said:

I am usually going by day and suddenly have this thought:

”Ohh, what if I subsume this to X warframe and then add that weapon and Y mod so they synergize”

then I feel euphoric, cant wait to get back home and try it… 

… and when I do I do make some monster build but the worst part is there is always the dreadful “ Now what?” part. 
There isnt any ultra endgame content to put my builds in use. 

I log out and wait for the next crazy build idea… wish there was content to reward me for making actually min maxed builds

Bro just described me lol

I have this problem up to eleven, that each Warframe I own doesn't have anything less than 10 forma

I Buildcraft too much it's ridiculous, it's sometimes annoying too

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

18 minutes ago, CephalonCarnage said:

reduce the mod power level of your frame and go against lower level enemies.

Or remove the mods entirely and run low level enemies. The challenge is there, you can see your synergy working. It doesn't have to be the power imbalanced "end game" that never will exist.

The reverse would be better imo, some mission "like the Index" that you'd have to pay in to start it, but the higher the pay in the higher the enemy scaling and rewards dropped. Homie was like "wish there was content to reward me for..." likely Kuva or something "still valuable" I dunno. 

I kinda consider Steel path Undercroft and Incarnons and whatnot to be "the current endgame" because gotta, play the entire game to unlock it. Can't always get your meta minmax build in there tho.

[Silligoose]

26 minutes ago, _Euphoria_ said:

I am usually going by day and suddenly have this thought:

”Ohh, what if I subsume this to X warframe and then add that weapon and Y mod so they synergize”

then I feel euphoric, cant wait to get back home and try it… 

… and when I do I do make some monster build but the worst part is there is always the dreadful “ Now what?” part. 
There isnt any ultra endgame content to put my builds in use. 

I log out and wait for the next crazy build idea… wish there was content to reward me for making actually min maxed builds

Many, many players have been waiting for something like this and are willing to come back to the game, as evidenced by the player numbers that skyrocketed with updates that showed promise for a decent endgame around the release of SP and around the release of Sister of Parvos. Granted, this was a few years ago. Obviously DE did not deliver and player retention was poor.

It is unfortunate that DE doesn't provide us with content that could challenge the high levels of power one can attain and give us a more tangible reason to accumulate more power, but it seems they are more interested flying unicorns turning this franchise around.

Sure, as others will likely mention, we can self-nerf (which I do), but self-nerfing doesn't quite compare to facing content that challenges one's maximum power.

A part of me still foolishly clings to the hope that DE will wake up and deliver a decently balanced endgame whilst still maintaining some depth, but as they continue to push nonsense like Kahl and Drifter and show a willingness erode the game's frame-gameplay depth via mechanics such as Overguard or "immune to pretty much everything" Archons, that part grows increasingly smaller.

[ReddyDisco]

55 minutes ago, _Euphoria_ said:

There isnt any ultra endgame content to put my builds in use.

There likely won't be.

[CephalonCarnage]

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

Many, many players have been waiting for something like this and are willing to come back to the game, as evidenced by the player numbers that skyrocketed with updates that showed promise for a decent endgame around the release of SP and around the release of Sister of Parvos. Granted, this was a few years ago. Obviously DE did not deliver and player retention was poor.

It is unfortunate that DE doesn't provide us with content that could challenge the high levels of power one can attain and give us a more tangible reason to accumulate more power, but it seems they are more interested flying unicorns turning this franchise around.

Sure, as others will likely mention, we can self-nerf (which I do), but self-nerfing doesn't quite compare to facing content that challenges one's maximum power.

A part of me still foolishly clings to the hope that DE will wake up and deliver a decently balanced endgame whilst still maintaining some depth, but as they continue to push nonsense like Kahl and Drifter and show a willingness erode the game's frame-gameplay depth via mechanics such as Overguard or "immune to pretty much everything" Archons, that part grows increasingly smaller.

Players always come back with every update. its not SP that did that or a desire for "endgame" content. Its to engage with normal warframe new stuff. The player count skyrockets with every update regardless of what it is. Then it drops off as players loot it dry. Rinse and Repeat.

There is no feasible endgame possiblity. Think it through, you want ever more powerful weapons, and ever more powerful enemies ot fight with those so you're really just shifting a boring "shoot stuff that's harder" mission mode further and further into the distance. That just makes it harder to balance and thus you'll never get what you want. Hence nonsense like Duviri where they gave up and had to create a new system (that is already OP from the start!) to try and get some sort of challenge back.

All the constant push for ever harder enemies to challenge a players ever better arsenal does nothing to satisfy anyone either. If they do it, you get players complaining its too hard and they nerf or buff it (see operators now have shields FFS. Eidolons, the old endgame content is now trivial). Then you find the other players saying its too easy and round we go again. There is no centre ground, there is no balance possible.

 

What they need to do is make engaging content that has stuff to do beyong shoot impossibly armoured enemies. Content that has more than kill stuff. More co-op play perhaps, or more exploration and progress through a story or some larger whole with shooting as the glue that holds it all together.

 

However, if you want super hard enemies to challenge your builds, then Simaris is the place for it. No rewards, just the ability to scale enemies to absurd levels. No arena either, Simaris with a linear or open world map would be better than the existing ones to give you a target than constinuous kills. A means to test yourself by getting through the level, killing everything in a timed manner, or with fewest shots or on a kdrive or no melee, or similar for leaderboard points. That is probably the closest to what you want, but its not "endgame" content as its not truly part of the game, just side activity for the benefit of those who want it.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

Many, many players have been waiting for something like this and are willing to come back to the game, as evidenced by the player numbers that skyrocketed with updates that showed promise for a decent endgame around the release of SP and around the release of Sister of Parvos. Granted, this was a few years ago. Obviously DE did not deliver and player retention was poor.

It is unfortunate that DE doesn't provide us with content that could challenge the high levels of power one can attain and give us a more tangible reason to accumulate more power, but it seems they are more interested flying unicorns turning this franchise around.

Sure, as others will likely mention, we can self-nerf (which I do), but self-nerfing doesn't quite compare to facing content that challenges one's maximum power.

A part of me still foolishly clings to the hope that DE will wake up and deliver a decently balanced endgame whilst still maintaining some depth, but as they continue to push nonsense like Kahl and Drifter and show a willingness erode the game's frame-gameplay depth via mechanics such as Overguard or "immune to pretty much everything" Archons, that part grows increasingly smaller.

SP were meant to be just "bigger numbers" not some kind of challenge.

To make challenge they have to do something else than just increasing numbers to infinitum. I had some toughts about (not perfect, as you can cheese it) but you don't have to as with sp):

 

2 hours ago, _Euphoria_ said:

I am usually going by day and suddenly have this thought:

”Ohh, what if I subsume this to X warframe and then add that weapon and Y mod so they synergize”

then I feel euphoric, cant wait to get back home and try it… 

… and when I do I do make some monster build but the worst part is there is always the dreadful “ Now what?” part. 
There isnt any ultra endgame content to put my builds in use. 

I log out and wait for the next crazy build idea… wish there was content to reward me for making actually min maxed builds

I'm like you but I'm more into weird stuff. For example with Kullervo update, I've put Teleport on Zephyr. It's nice to use with Hover.

[(PSN)Unstar]

3 hours ago, _Euphoria_ said:

… and when I do I do make some monster build but the worst part is there is always the dreadful “ Now what?” part. 
There isnt any ultra endgame content to put my builds in use.

It sounds like you enjoy being creative, so I'd recommend you put some of that creativity into engineering challenges for yourself.  Set goals for yourself that the game doesn't ask of you, and if you really want to push yourself, deprive yourself of certain kinds of mods, weapons, abilities, Operator, etc.  This is a guaranteed way that you can face off against challenges that push your skills and your abilities as a min-maxer.  My concern would be that if you instead wait for DE to manufacture the kind of content you're hoping for, it will never arrive, and that dread you feel will only grow and lead you towards frustration.

 

3 hours ago, _Euphoria_ said:

I log out and wait for the next crazy build idea… wish there was content to reward me for making actually min maxed builds

I mean, you can use your min-maxed builds in the content that exists in the game.  But if you're asking for content that requires them, then the reality is that it's unlikely to happen.  While there are certainly "hardcore" players like us, the vast majority of Warframe's player base is "casual", and as a free-to-play game Warframe's survival is thus dependent upon DE providing content that is accessible to those players.

The biggest problem is that when you offer meaningful rewards for content, that content becomes the baseline expectation for the game.  Take Steel Path for example: in it's initial conception, it was meant to offer more hardcore players a challenge*.  But weapon arcanes were offered as rewards there, which immediately made the Steel Path part of the game's critical path for growing your Warframe's power.  And thus, Steel Path immediately became the baseline experience that builds were expected to be able to tackle.  The same would happen to any content offering meaningful rewards.  At this point, DE is assuredly aware of this phenomenon, and thus I would be very surprised if they ever created anything rewarding that felt like a hardcore end-game.

Granted, I'm not DE, and things change.  I don't speak with any authority and I could be wrong.  But I do want to discourage you from simply waiting and hoping for something I don't think is likely to happen, because I want you to be happy and not full of dread each time you make a cool build.  Which is why I'd suggest that you engineer your own min-maxed challenges to overcome, because that's the only guaranteed way to give your builds the raison d'être you seem to be seeking.

 

*Interestingly enough, the initial release of the Steel Path had even longtime, hardcore players complaining about it being tuned too high, as even normal enemies were bullet sponges.  It was a challenge they could tackle but it wasn't an enjoyable challenge to tackle.  DE heard that feedback and their EHP was massively reduced.

Edited July 11, 2023 by (PSN)Unstar

[Silligoose]

1 hour ago, CephalonCarnage said:

Players always come back with every update. its not SP that did that or a desire for "endgame" content. Its to engage with normal warframe new stuff. The player count skyrockets with every update regardless of what it is. Then it drops off as players loot it dry. Rinse and Repeat.

There is no feasible endgame possiblity. Think it through, you want ever more powerful weapons, and ever more powerful enemies ot fight with those so you're really just shifting a boring "shoot stuff that's harder" mission mode further and further into the distance. That just makes it harder to balance and thus you'll never get what you want. Hence nonsense like Duviri where they gave up and had to create a new system (that is already OP from the start!) to try and get some sort of challenge back.

All the constant push for ever harder enemies to challenge a players ever better arsenal does nothing to satisfy anyone either. If they do it, you get players complaining its too hard and they nerf or buff it (see operators now have shields FFS. Eidolons, the old endgame content is now trivial). Then you find the other players saying its too easy and round we go again. There is no centre ground, there is no balance possible.

 

What they need to do is make engaging content that has stuff to do beyong shoot impossibly armoured enemies. Content that has more than kill stuff. More co-op play perhaps, or more exploration and progress through a story or some larger whole with shooting as the glue that holds it all together.

 

However, if you want super hard enemies to challenge your builds, then Simaris is the place for it. No rewards, just the ability to scale enemies to absurd levels. No arena either, Simaris with a linear or open world map would be better than the existing ones to give you a target than constinuous kills. A means to test yourself by getting through the level, killing everything in a timed manner, or with fewest shots or on a kdrive or no melee, or similar for leaderboard points. That is probably the closest to what you want, but its not "endgame" content as its not truly part of the game, just side activity for the benefit of those who want it.

The second highest number of players this game has ever had according to Steam Charts came shortly after the release of SP, a few weeks before Deimos - players came to check out the new "hard mode". The highest number of players this game has ever had according to Steam Charts, was with the Sisters of Parvos update. Granted, this was a massive update with a lot of content such as the Yarelli and weapons release. a Helminth update, but more importantly also Sisters of Parvos (endgame content), more Kuva weapons (endgame content) a Lich system rework (endgame) and of course massive balance changes pertaining to SP gameplay and endgame weapon damage output with the release of galv mods and primary-/secondary weapon arcanes. These two updates showed greatest promise for some sort of improvement in endgame balance and challenge in Warframe and they just so happened to have pulled in the greatest numbers.

Neither TNW, nor Duviri, were able to put up such numbers, despite having a longer build-up and more effort being put forth to hype it up. In fact, last year WF had its lowest concurrent player numbers in a given month (Nov 2022) on Steam in about 5 years. It also had the lowest peak player numbers on Steam for a month (Oct 2022) in about 5 years. So no, players do not always come back. 

There is most certainly a feasible endgame possibility, but note a good endgame isn't one where the gameplay is the same at lower level and higher level, but with bigger numbers. A good endgame entails encouraging players to use the various mechanics at their disposal, the skills they've acquired en route to the endgame, to be successful in said endgame and when one talks of a progression-style game such as Warframe, or Borderlands, or Diablo, or Monster Hunter etc, it usually adds in the component for endgame gear to be required as well to some extent. Endgame is not only a gear check, but becomes a skill check. As such, it is pretty obvious it was never going to be as easy as slapping on an HP-, armour- and shield modifier as found in SP, which is one of the reasons as to why player retention was so poor with SP's launch. DE would need to address upper limits of potential power and address exceptional outliers in performance. Accordingly, the enemies and environments would necessitate the synergistic use of various mechanics, which leads to endgame gameplay rewarding not only power gained via gear and stats, but players' improvement of game mechanics as well.

When it comes to the level of difficulty players enjoy, there is a spectrum. Decades ago developers figured out catering to the various categories of players within that spectrum is the best course of action and a such there are various levels of difficulty in games. DE somehow hasn't figured that out and, hilariously, manages to alienate various groups of players within that spectrum.

I can see potential in expanding endgame to beyond simply killing stuff and agree venturing into other directions could serve the game well and expand on endgame.

No need to fall back to Simaris only for endgame content. There is a motif established for why we go about mass murder and breaking that for some arbitrary reason does take away from the enjoyment of the game inmy opinion: I'd rather do an actual mission facing lvl 9999 enemies, than face them in the simulacrum. As for rewards, whilst I believe the focus should be on gameplay being rewarding and players logging in to play the game because the game is fun first and foremost, some extrinsic reward, even if only superficial an offering, serves to continue the motif in this game and is actually important when it comes to balance - it feels off when the lvl 10 bosses in a game drops 1000 currency and resources, but the lvl 100+ bosses drop 10 currency and resources of less value.

[CephalonCarnage]

3 hours ago, Silligoose said:

The highest number of players this game has ever had according to Steam Charts, was with the Sisters of Parvos update. Granted, this was a massive update with a lot of content such as the Yarelli and weapons release. a Helminth update, but more importantly also Sisters of Parvos (endgame content), more Kuva weapons (endgame content) a Lich system rework (endgame) and of course massive balance changes pertaining to SP gameplay and endgame weapon damage output with the release of galv mods and primary-/secondary weapon arcanes

That's not "endgame content. That's just more content. People come for more content - and if more people than usual come back, its for the new toys and loot and rewards that this bigger update provided. They didn't come for the hardness that wasn;t that hard, they came for the big guns that made it all even easier than before!

This is the opposite of what you argue for. They came not for "endgame difficulty" but for "even more cheese".

Eidolons were endgame as you descibe, but they require a level of balance for numbers, acquired powers and skills. We had that, you needed to know your stuff, you couldn't just nuke everything, and it worked well. But then the feature creep appeared and it became meaningless. No endgame is possible with ever-higher numbers, and even skill-based endgame features are meaningless with ever higher numbers.

unfortunately, Warframe as a free-to-play game requires ever higher numbers (in terms of better weapons, etc) to re-attract old players to keep playing.

 

I think the best, and possibly the only, true endgame content is to restart the game. Offer players some special fashion and allow them to keep their plat and purchases, and then drop back to MR1. Repeat the game, which was awesome. That's what you really want. The balance, the difficulty, the progression, the skill-based bosses. you just have to do it without the "endgame" weaponry, frames and mods that have broken the game.

[(NSW)Greybones]

I find that distilling it down to the essence of the concept works pretty well. It may result in a build that doesn’t actually go that high but it still works for the content I’m doing while providing spare mod slots/capacity to fill with other things, or it may prove particularly effective and find its place in SP or beyond

Like, if I wanted to carpetbomb the area with electric-proccing explosions with something like the Angstrum, I just need multishot and electric and status, and something like Hornet Strike or Firerate is optional.

I was playing around with Inaros’ Elemental Sandstorm and Archon Continuity with a Toxin mod on my melee, and that was all I needed to apply Corrosive to enemies; more strength or efficiency was secondary to the build and as such may take a back seat to something else.

If you’re particularly troubled by how effective your build is, you could always throw on some Dragon Keys to shift aspects of it (though they don’t affect abilities), though if they’re breaking unbalanced SP that tends to be the point of the build in the first place for me

Edited July 12, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones
qualifier added

[Silligoose]

On 2023-07-12 at 1:13 AM, CephalonCarnage said:

That's not "endgame content. That's just more content. People come for more content - and if more people than usual come back, its for the new toys and loot and rewards that this bigger update provided. They didn't come for the hardness that wasn;t that hard, they came for the big guns that made it all even easier than before!

This is the opposite of what you argue for. They came not for "endgame difficulty" but for "even more cheese".

Eidolons were endgame as you descibe, but they require a level of balance for numbers, acquired powers and skills. We had that, you needed to know your stuff, you couldn't just nuke everything, and it worked well. But then the feature creep appeared and it became meaningless. No endgame is possible with ever-higher numbers, and even skill-based endgame features are meaningless with ever higher numbers.

unfortunately, Warframe as a free-to-play game requires ever higher numbers (in terms of better weapons, etc) to re-attract old players to keep playing.

 

I think the best, and possibly the only, true endgame content is to restart the game. Offer players some special fashion and allow them to keep their plat and purchases, and then drop back to MR1. Repeat the game, which was awesome. That's what you really want. The balance, the difficulty, the progression, the skill-based bosses. you just have to do it without the "endgame" weaponry, frames and mods that have broken the game.

Endgame in progression-style games is the content players do after they've "completed' a game. It serves to extend the life of the game, extend player engagement and increase player retention. This is objective - personal opinions do not change this. Not mine, not yours, not someone at DE's. Endgame can take different forms of structure in different games: In Diablo 3 it revolves around Greater Rifts. In Path of Exile there are various forms, such as Atlas progression, Delving etc. In Borderlands it involves higher levels of difficulty (a form of new game+) and raids. In Monster Hunter it revolves around challenges and hunting of stronger monsters. In Warframe it involves things like SP (a higher difficulty option unlocked ie a form of new game+), Incursions, Sorties, Arbitrations etc as they all fall within what is defined as an endgame feature. The concept of "ever-higher numbers" is found in all these games, but it does not change the fact that all these games, Warframe included, have an endgame.

The question isn't whether Warframe has and endgame. The question is whether Warframe's endgame is good. Due to massive imbalances that become more apparent at endgame and considering that endgame's level of challenge is lower than what is experienced prior to said endgame, the answer is no. It is not. The challenge experienced at endgame is far less than the challenge experienced on the way to it. Amongst other things, this leads to players getting bored, disengaging from the content and moving on to something else, meaning the endgame features are failing to do what they are designed to do in many aspects.

You need to learn to discern in different types of content, their purpose and their potential: You can't discuss the purpose of dessert if you can't identify it and me discussing the roles starters, main courses and desserts and how they can be improved is wasted when you refuse to acknowledge there are differences in these offerings and that it isn't all "just food". You need to move beyond the thinking that everything mentioned is "just more content".

SP showed the greatest promise for an improved endgame in Warframe. It is no coincidence that the two updates that drew the greatest numbers according to steam charts, were the ones that introduced SP and expanded on it markedly. Players have wanted a good endgame to be presented for years. Both times they were disappointed by the low-effort, short-sighted offering.

As already discussed, good endgame content involves more than "bigger numbers", because it is more than just a gear check. It is not just "same gameplay with bigger numbers". It necessitates the use of synergistic mechanics to continue to progress in endgame content. As a result, the gameplay in endgame tends to be more complex than in early- or midgame. As such, the idea to reset progression for some item is not a good idea as endgame content. Not only does it make the same mistake DE makes in that it disrespects player progression to too large a degree, it also completely misses the fact that a good endgame necessitates the synergistic use of various mechanics learned during progression to endgame. Have you not participated in endgame content in other games? How do you not know this?

[CephalonCarnage]

1 minute ago, Silligoose said:

Endgame in progression-style games is the content players do after they've "completed' a game

 

2 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

You need to learn to discern in different types of content

You contradict yourself. More content added is part of the game, and yet you tell me that "endgame" is stuff they do after they have completed all content.

So DE releases an update with new stuff, that's not endgame by your definition. Its new content. Its more game.

 

So, as the adage goes, don't tell me of the speck in my eye when you have a plank in your own.

[Silligoose]

Just now, CephalonCarnage said:

 

You contradict yourself. More content added is part of the game, and yet you tell me that "endgame" is stuff they do after they have completed all content.

So DE releases an update with new stuff, that's not endgame by your definition. Its new content. Its more game.

 

So, as the adage goes, don't tell me of the speck in my eye when you have a plank in your own.

Hahahaha. No, neither I, nor the hyperlink, stated endgame content is " stuff they do after they have completed all content." 🤣

Read it again and don't let your emotions get in the way this time.

[Silligoose]

On 2023-07-11 at 5:21 PM, quxier said:

SP were meant to be just "bigger numbers" not some kind of challenge.

To make challenge they have to do something else than just increasing numbers to infinitum. I had some toughts about (not perfect, as you can cheese it) but you don't have to as with sp):

SP was introduced to serve as more challenging content: "Greater difficulty and greater rewards await"

I do agree that DE missed the mark and simply adding bigger numbers in the was not only lazy, but short-sighted and an incredible disappointment. In your post you do touch on something I believe is worth a look (speed), but in all honesty for endgame content to be engaging and dynamic, obvious imbalances and potential upper limits of player power needs to be addressed properly. I say properly, because DE has already tried to address these issues by way of mechanics such as Overguard, Damage Attenuation and Immunity to most everything. These are band-aids that both erode gameplay depth and don't actually work properly.