The Rhino buffs: I am concerned, as a hardcore Rhino main, and once a revenant lover.

[Amolistic.]

...another buff.

Even before any buffs, Rhino is just undead already, you just need more skill to do so, let alone now, with overguard changes taking away more and more of his very very few remaining small issues, and now possibly the overguard gate, he is just not able to ded anymore. You just press buttons more vs a revenant, essentially having at least 70% of revenant's survivability, even approaching 80%-85%, by just a baseline ironskin that you dont even bother to mod with, as you squander his potential so so much by modding it, which is the 90% of Rhino mains/players I see nowadays. Quite sad for the general community to undermine his sheer viability to have a neural activation on big skin numbers that is not practical at all.

(Skip to the very end for TLDR.)

 

WHY THE TITLE? WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

We all have to remember that Rhino is a jack of all trades, Revenant is a specialized tank. This is the major difference between them.

Jack of all trades are good at multiple roles, but the power of their individual abilities are watered down a bit, examples are gauss, gara, nezha, oberon, and so on. You can say they generally don't have any problem, but you just cant find any outstanding performance from their kit vs the specialized ones.

Rhino? Nah, 2nd best tank ability, best consistent buff/dmg support in game that have too many synergy to play around with, a stomp that is so potent you make any frame with a cc vastly inferior vs it, his 3 augment is very good? Nah, press stomp, don't even bother subsume any cc for him, duo'ing with limbo and you will have the time stop boys making everyone stop moving indefinitely.

Rhino is such an exception to this rule which many jacks are following, which makes no sense at all...

 

Revenant itself is obviously a tank, and he specialize in it. his other abilities are generally deemed lackluster nowadays by many, with many powercreeps introduced, he is not really able to provide much, good results is able to be seen but there is just much better and more efficient choices, even for his AoE waveclear 4, but yet still have his 1 to carry some of his viability outside tanking.

He is possibly one of the frames I wish to see some improvements in what he can provide, like Inaros. Without subsumes, they generally...sucks. I used to love revenant due to his funny 4, but...guess I will still be a filthy, psychopathic and hardcore Rhino main, for now.

 

My main concern is that Revenant should always be a considerably better tank vs rhino, revenant specialized in it, if he is good at it, let him.

Especially when rhino is not only just tank, he provides so so so many things outside being undead, where Revenant just cannot match even with his 2 augment, and that is without subsumes, with subsumes, it is not even comparable, not even close to having 10-15% of it.

 

(skip this part below, till the next dashed line if you don't care about me explaining the comparison)

- - - - - - - -

Why I make the assumption above?

Rhino even make him an inferior reave user due to 410str reave roar combo oneshotting anyone without viral stacks, and swipe your mouse quickly will just annihilate any eximus in your way, make revenant wish he can be this efficient. Even his 4 nuke is nothing in front of the completely insane triple exponential dip dmg scaling of thermal sunder Rhino ESO nuke build, wave 14? All nothing but clap clap clap dead, even competing, possibly outshining all the dedicated meta nukes of ESO, by being a tank, making gauss wish that thermal can be this broken without battery scaling, with harrow and garuda thermal ESO nuke build become insanely potent due to roar, his 1 cc is also incomparable against the completely insane, utterly broken Rhino stomp...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qHi25W_dM8VErqXoQnbRjXA8qp7kWdmc/view?usp=drive_link

(wave 19, thermal sunder nuke build on rhino, pure solo.)

 

And lets not even begin comparing viable subsume amount, revenant's 6 vs rhino's 37 is just brutal, even unfair.

nourish rhino, thermal sunder rhino, pillage rhino, aquablades rhino, cold/toxin elem ward rhino, any grouping ability with him, any elem dmg increase with him, any armor strip with him, and more, too many to give deep explanation with...

 

The only thing he has an considerable edge over Rhino is his 2, Mesmer skin.

With DE consistently making iron skin massively better and better, not only it is pushing rhino to literally become SSS tier at this point, as even the best frames still have some problems, just not so detrimental, or they generally being not very versatile but fit into the meta, but Rhino? With arcane avenger become from worst to his best pick, no longer getting knocked down in the initial dmg absorb period, and with rolling guard able to stall the iron skin hp from dropping, and the additional 0.5s overguard gate on top of 0.33s-1.33s shield gate, and still being the most versatile frame in the game, beating even gauss in a huge mile now in just what he can do.

You can essentially Call him King, possibly God of all trades and it is pretty much correct.

Rhino is the only frame where he has flying colors in pretty much every mainstream mission even for nuking related jobs, even ESO and SP nuke, even viable for eido, pt hunts, exceptional frame to have in squad archon hunts due to iron skin drawing away all the archon's attention and still being undead, capable of being top tier speedrunner with his 1, with neutral range stomp, defense is ezpz, with high range stomp, mobile def exca and interception is complete joke even in SP, exterminate very annoying? thermal sunder nuke deletes them even for zariman tier 5 exterminate bounty. Being undead, and boast very very high survivability? Check.

Greatest beginner frame, one of the easiest to grind out, one of the highest modding capabilities, most synergy available in one frame, one of the lowest investment frame.

And...duviri undercroft.

The only frame aside limbo who can solo hold exca and pre-buff defense mission with ease while everyone else are struggling hard due to just how brutal the thrax and the enemies can be, casually one shotting your objective, and omg thermal sunder rhino here is not real. The thermal clap scaling + roar% is disgusting already? Nah, dip it again, make it 12.25x instead of 3.5x with torment twofold. Level 2000? clap clap ded.

So so many I can tell you, but I will make it a stop here.

- - - - - - - -

 

Revenant had to compete against this sheer level of viability outside being undead, as Rhino is his tank counterpart. This is just not even close to be a competition, it is a one-sided beatdown without revenant having some considerable edge over Rhino in some way, which is, in fact, him being a considerably better tank, obviously.

[Do you notice the "initial letter R" boys are coincidentally the tankiest in game and the end letter "O" frames having the best cc capabilities in game? (limbo, rhino)]

But now, with rhino now sticking very close behind revenant in tanking, becoming the 2nd outlier in general tanking prowess, he just slowly take away what make revenant a viable choice against him, is just that many people DO NOT UNDERSTAND how many potential and sheer capability Rhino possess.

 

I'm very concerned. Rhino having a overall better kit power vs Revenant before any of the buffs now aged like milk. It is not overall better only, it is now vastly better due to how little issue rhino now has after those buffs, it could possibly lead to a bitter ending for revenant.

Rhino's weaknesses? He is boring, and need to use some skill, not braindead enough, uhh...ironskin kinda ruin fashion? I dunno.

That's it. Yes. I am being serious.

He rarely have any weakness gameplay wise, and he is quite close to literal perfection now, and I am scared for what he could become, another octavia. But now he is very very underrated and underutilized by many.

 

He is once called the heaviest warframe for a reason. He is always meta for 10 years for a reason.

I do hope DE don't buff Rhino again as he is now on the verge of breaking the game in half now.

- - - - - -

 

TLDR; I am happy and have mixed thoughts with the buffs for rhino, and I feel kinda sad for revenant players.

 

Who wouldve thought that a thread about Rhino and Revenant can suddenly become a place to debate shield-gating being ok or not....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Amolistic.

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

You got it in reverse Rhino was one of the first frames that had a kit around tanking, he definitely not a jack of all trades.

[Surbusken]

I thought revenant's only role was using the AOE spam damage during eidolon hunts to give the team red crits?

Not even joking either.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

Why is it that whenever the term "gate" is used people automatically jump onto the whole "just press one button for complete invulnerability" train? Seriously do people not realize just how small of a window 1.3 seconds is for a shield gate let alone a .5 second overguard gate? And comparing an extra .5 seconds of invulnerability per full iron skin cast to a 1 second of invulnerability per mesmer skin charge (which btw has 6 charges at base which is at minimum 6 secs of invulnerability) is just a bit absurd and a hell of an over exaggeration. Rhino has 3 seconds of invulnerability after casting iron skin plus 1.3 secs of shield gate invulnerability provided he is at full shields, that adds up to 4.3 secs at minimum per iron skin cast with no way to increase that time further unlike with mesmer skin. with the extra .5 secs added iron skin now provides 4.8 secs of invulnerability which is basically unnoticeable and still a full 1.2 seconds shorter than revenants mesmer skin unmodded. Rhino was affected the least with the new overgaurd changes, could hardly even call it a buff. Also btw neither rhino nor revenant are "tank", traditionally tanks as a role draw in aggro on top of being able to withstand said aggro and neither rev nor rhino do that all they do is reduce the damage they take which is a trait shared by a lot of other warframes.

People really got to stop freaking out about shield or overguard or whatever other gates that come out and maybe learn what it actually is and does. And also btw if full on invulnerability was so game breakingly broken op then frames like assimilate nyx or valkyr would be dominating the meta however they are not, in fact quite the opposite.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

say what you will, Rhino can't recast Iron Skin without an augment, and needs a seperate augment for it to scale properly,  Revenant can recast whenever he feels like it and needs no augments for Mesmer Skin (but still got one that lets him give 5 stacks of Mesmer Skin to allies, another thign rhino cannot do). to me, saying Revenant has got it bad compared to Rhino seems like twisted logic.

I wouldn't say Revenant is a specialized tank, since his kit also includes a summoning ability (generally most Revenants I see in SPC are using thralls to effectively defend excavators) and also a DPS ability (granted, it's not that strong really but it's still there.). 

as for Rhino, his passive still sucks. I say this as someone who has used Rhino prime more than any other frame and used to run a lot of the Old Void with him; the overguard change is welcome but he seriously needs a new passive as much as many other frames do, maybe more. if that were fixed, then he'd be perfect.

 

[Hexerin]

40 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

And also btw if full on invulnerability was so game breakingly broken op then frames like assimilate nyx or valkyr would be dominating the meta however they are not, in fact quite the opposite.

Nyx's Assimilate augment moves at a glacial pace (which you cannot increase by any means, unlike Ivara's Infiltrate augment), and also cannot perform any action that involves the use of sprint nor jump. She can roll, but that is four direction movement only, and is surface bound (can't move upwards without a ramp/stairs, can't roll off an edge that has a railing). There's a few really wonky/jank tricks you can use with certain melee weapons to increase mobility a little, but other than that you're stuck with transference to operator if you need to have a burst of mobility.

Valkyr's case is just one dimensional, and requires a very specific build setup with a very specific gameplay style to maintain. There's no wiggle room whatsoever.

The overwhelming majority of players simply just don't want to run this gameplay, which is why you don't see it. It has nothing to do with the power level, which is objectively absurd. You literally can't be killed by any means the enemy has, so the only thing between you and the Mission Success screen is the time it takes you to complete the mission objective and get to the extract. Well, except for if Stalker shows up I suppose (I'm assuming he can pull you out of Absorb/Hysteria).

[(PSN)Unstar]

Rhino is at no risk of breaking the game.  Revenant's survival scales infinitely, and with more ease than any frame depending on gating.

That said, they're both good, and it's not like players of one frame are going to jump ship to the other over some mild buffs.  Presumably most players play Rhino instead of Revenant (or vice versa) because there's something about that playstyle that appeals to them.  A minor balance shift isn't going to change that.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

The overwhelming majority of players simply just don't want to run this gameplay, which is why you don't see it. It has nothing to do with the power level, which is objectively absurd. You literally can't be killed by any means the enemy has, so the only thing between you and the Mission Success screen is the time it takes you to complete the mission objective and get to the extract. Well, except for if Stalker shows up I suppose (I'm assuming he can pull you out of Absorb/Hysteria).

Thats exactly what my point is, if full on invulnerability was so game breakingly op then people would more than willing to put up with the downsides of using the best most guaranteed methods of achieving it but the simple fact is people arent. Inaros is unkillable in 99% of the games content yet he is deemed as trash by the majority of the player base, invulnerability is completely useless for 99% of the games content and the 1% would be useful hardly anybody plays and theres better options. People like to over exaggerate about how op invulnerability is but in reality its quite useless.

[Hexerin]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Thats exactly what my point is, if full on invulnerability was so game breakingly op then people would more than willing to put up with the downsides of using the best most guaranteed methods of achieving it but the simple fact is people arent. Inaros is unkillable in 99% of the games content yet he is deemed as trash by the majority of the player base, invulnerability is completely useless for 99% of the games content and the 1% would be useful hardly anybody plays and theres better options. People like to over exaggerate about how op invulnerability is but in reality its quite useless.

You misunderstand. The gameplay of those two is so negative to the vast majority that seek that gamebreaking power, that those frames actually having the ideal form of that power still doesn't outweigh the negatives of playing them. Those people want those wins, but they don't want to take an hour per mission like Assimilate Nyx causes. That Valkyr build requires a modicum of skill and a decent amount of mental focus, which runs counter to the "ez winz" they want.

From everything I've seen said about Inaros, he's considered useless by that part of the playerbase because he can't shield gate (so gets instantly killed by any single attack), and his passive simply doesn't even function at those levels.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

2 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

You misunderstand. The gameplay of those two is so negative to the vast majority that seek that gamebreaking power, that those frames actually having the ideal form of that power still doesn't outweigh the negatives of playing them. Those people want those wins, but they don't want to take an hour per mission like Assimilate Nyx causes. That Valkyr build requires a modicum of skill and a decent amount of mental focus, which runs counter to the "ez winz" they want.

Youre the one whos misunderstanding here, if invulnerability was truly that game breakingly op as people claim then that would be the only thing that matters and would be the only thing people would use, however its not and thats why people dont and consdier both valk and nyx trash. Wukong before his rework was literally invulnerable straight up and was considered trash, so much so that he was given a rework.

 

7 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

From everything I've seen said about Inaros, he's considered useless by that part of the playerbase because he can't shield gate (so gets instantly killed by any single attack), and his passive simply doesn't even function at those levels.

Before shield gating was a thing inaros was still considered trash and its for the same reason as how wukong was trash before his rework, invulnerability is just not useful. And also inaros health tanking is far easier and braindead to use then shield gating and its not even remotely close, people over exaggerate shield gating and other similar mechanics so much that no one seems to know what it actually is anymore.

[Hexerin]

14 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

inaros health tanking

At 90% damage mitigation, a frame would take just over 70k damage from a basic Grineer Lancer at level cap. Per projectile. I simply don't see how you're going to be health tanking that. Math on that taken from the wiki, btw.

[(NSW)Greybones]

What was the buff? I didn’t think he needed it, and if the buff was to shut up players who worry that one overkill build/loadout is overkilling better than another overkill build/loadout who have a warped idea of what needs a buff and what doesn’t, I question the sense behind it.

Was there some fundamental problem being addressed or something?

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

DE just made Styanax a jack of all trades overguard tank as well. 

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

4 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Why is it that whenever the term "gate" is used people automatically jump onto the whole "just press one button for complete invulnerability" train? Seriously do people not realize just how small of a window 1.3 seconds is for a shield gate 

I promise you that shield gate is only "op" if you run primed sure footed. 

I can run brief respite on my Wisp as much as I want, but if a single enemy shoves me over in steel path, I'm basically dead.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

2 hours ago, Hexerin said:

At 90% damage mitigation, a frame would take just over 70k damage from a basic Grineer Lancer at level cap. Per projectile. I simply don't see how you're going to be health tanking that. Math on that taken from the wiki, btw.

When did I say anything at all about lvl cap exactly? Everyone nowadays for whatever reason seems to compare everything lvl cap and its honestly the dumbest thing I see no offense. How many people are going to lvl cap? Lvl cap is not something that most players will ever bother reaching so why is that everyone judge everything possible based on how it can hold up in lvl cap, I do not get it. The game is not balanced around lvl cap and DE themselves said it never will be so stop using that as an excuse. Lvl cap runs have been a thing long before shield gating and most of the runs involved sitting inside a frost bubble the whole run as its not possible to and still to this day isnt possible to tank lvl cap enemies.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

I promise you that shield gate is only "op" if you run primed sure footed. 

I can run brief respite on my Wisp as much as I want, but if a single enemy shoves me over in steel path, I'm basically dead.

Its not op in general, its honestly one balanced mechanics in the game people just dont understand what it actually is.

[Hexerin]

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

When did I say anything at all about lvl cap exactly?

By talking about shield gating, because that's literally what it's used for?

[(NSW)warfare3376]

1 minute ago, Hexerin said:

By talking about shield gating, because that's literally what it's used for?

Shield gate is just a mechanic nothing more nothing less. Its not some ability you use or whatever you might think it is, its a passive all warframes that have a shield has. If your frame has any shields at all you shield gate no matter what kind of content you are playing. People confuse this very often with shield restoration, you are restoring shields to reset that passive its the same concept as restoring your health to make better use of the dr that comes with it. This "shield gate tanking" also absolutely sucks anywhere other than lvl cap and again hardly any body actually plays lvl cap to begin with, thats why its no where near as op as people make it out to be.

[(NSW)Greybones]

13 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Shield gate is just a mechanic nothing more nothing less. Its not some ability you use or whatever you might think it is, its a passive all warframes that have a shield has. If your frame has any shields at all you shield gate no matter what kind of content you are playing. People confuse this very often with shield restoration, you are restoring shields to reset that passive its the same concept as restoring your health to make better use of the dr that comes with it. This "shield gate tanking" also absolutely sucks anywhere other than lvl cap and again hardly any body actually plays lvl cap to begin with, thats why its no where near as op as people make it out to be.

I think they’re referring more to shieldgate abuse rather than shield restoration or shieldgating in its fundamental form

[(NSW)warfare3376]

24 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I think they’re referring more to shieldgate abuse rather than shield restoration or shieldgating in its fundamental form

If thats the case the whole shield gate "abuse" argument is also very dumb and extremely over exaggerated and stems from people not understanding how the mechanic works. 

[Her_Lovely_Tentacles]

9 hours ago, Surbusken said:

I thought revenant's only role was using the AOE spam damage during eidolon hunts to give the team red crits?

Not even joking either.

do you mean Harrow? (in which case it's also about the full team immunity during the energy spikes)

[(NSW)Greybones]

58 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

If thats the case the whole shield gate "abuse" argument is also very dumb and extremely over exaggerated and stems from people not understanding how the mechanic works. 

Putting the word abuse into quotes has been noted. I’m not sure what the greater argument is, but it’s not like players wouldn’t love to be invincible regardless of what they need to abuse. That’s kind of the point of most of their builds; low-risk grind. And you can’t get much lower risk than invincibility, and the only reason we’re not seeing more of it is because of how fiddly it can be to pull off, not because players are particularly discerning or capable

 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[(NSW)warfare3376]

46 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Putting the word abuse into quotes has been noted. I’m not sure what the greater argument is, but it’s not like players wouldn’t love to be invincible regardless of what they need to abuse. That’s kind of the point of most of their builds; low-risk grind. And you can’t get much lower risk than invincibility, and the only reason we’re not seeing more of it is because of how fiddly it can be to pull off, not because players are particularly discerning or capable

 

 

Back in the day pre rework wukongs defy ability was a channeled ability that literally made you invincible and healed a portion of health for a few seconds after receiving a fatal blow, this paired with rage made it impossible for him to die yet despite this he was still considered utter trash so much so in fact that he got a full on rework. Invulnerability is one of the most useless tings a warframe can offer yet at the same time is highly over exaggerated as this super op game breaking thing for whatever reason.

Edited July 28, 2023 by (NSW)warfare3376

[(NSW)Greybones]

7 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Back in the day pre rework wukongs defy ability was a channeled ability that literally made you invincible and healed a portion of health for a few seconds after receiving a fatal blow, this paired with rage made it impossible for him to die yet despite this he was still considered utter trash so much so in fact that he got a full on rework. Invulnerability is one of the most useless tings a warframe can offer yet at the same time is highly over exaggerated as this super op game breaking thing.

Invincibility in general is something that deserves being treated with caution from a gameplay perspective even if players can opt for alternative means of low-risk gameplay like massive overkill and endless energy for ability spam. I don’t think it’s unfair to treat building for it or using gimmicks to attain it as a gamebreaking crutch when it… kind of is and is exactly why players do it in the first place. It’s certainly not sought after because of how balanced it can be, that’s for sure

[(NSW)warfare3376]

17 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Invincibility in general is something that deserves being treated with caution from a gameplay perspective even if players can opt for alternative means of low-risk gameplay like massive overkill and endless energy for ability spam. I don’t think it’s unfair to treat building for it or using gimmicks to attain it as a gamebreaking crutch when it… kind of is and is exactly why players do it in the first place. It’s certainly not sought after because of how balanced it can be, that’s for sure

You fail to understand my point. My point is that the extreme cases of full on invulnerability are deemed worthless and are nearly unused yet people make such a big deal about the lesser 1.3 sec shield gate invulnerability and in this case the even lesser .5 secs of overgaurd gate and I just do not understand that. The only thing I can thing off being the reason for this is that shield gating has gained quite a lot of popularity and since people like to jump on the hate bandwagon for popular things we end up here. Lots of youtube guide popping up about "endgame" builds that involve exploiting shield gating (which btw the definition for exploit follows; make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource)) however people seem to like to hard focus onto only a few key words like invulnerability or exploit and not look into it any further and instead make assumptions that only lead to further misunderstandings of how the mechanic actually works and now that misunderstanding is spreading to overgaurd. Like say people just over exaggerate whether its intentional or if its due to these misunderstandings.