We need hard endgame content so people have a reason to farm all these stuff.

[CrownOfShadows]

9 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Are you referring to merely settling for countering threats instead of invalidating them? Because someone’s gonna find a way to invalidate them, and then you’re stuck with the choice of doing whatever they’re doing or not.

Also vets have more to do than newbies and more ways to do it in

I mean counter warframes instead of invalidating them. Having counterplay is what creates engaging content.

Warframes have no counters in the game (except an occasional cleanse on demolysts and a mag proc here and there if that even qualifies) and that's a big reason why we feel unstoppable and bored, and the main reason bosses are so bad in particular - rather than using counterplay they just invalidate warframes (and weapons) as much as possible, and that's just not a great direction to go.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I mean counter warframes instead of invalidating them. Having counterplay is what creates engaging content.

Warframes have no counters in the game (except an occasional cleanse on demolysts and a mag proc here and there if that even qualifies) and that's a big reason why we feel unstoppable and bored, and the main reason bosses are so bad in particular - rather than using counterplay they just invalidate warframes (and weapons) as much as possible, and that's just not a great direction to go.

Gradients of counterplay do exist in the balanced part of the game and more can be added to the balanced part of the game; running out of energy isn’t instant death, stagger isn’t an instant-kill, shieldgating gives grace periods to get out of trouble, we have gradients of health that can be chipped and healed, enemies can not die instantly while not being bulletsponges, movement and positioning and the fighting area and how someone can control the flow of the fight can be important 

There’s a lot more available to the gameplay than invincibility until you hit a brick wall in Steel Path. It’s like actual game designers designed the encounters and their rules even though it all gets thrown into the bin by uninterested players who opt out for whatever reason

Edited September 26, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[CrownOfShadows]

16 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Good luck. DE have been trying to do exactly that for the better part of 8 years.

No, they've been invalidating warframes for 8 years. Every single boss: invalidation, not countering.

There's not a single counter to any warframe in the game, there's only game modes that are suited for certain frames more than others because they murder faster in that scenario. What counters Saryn? What counters Mesa? What counters Mirage? What counters Volt? Protea? Wisp? etc, etc, etc - there's not a single counter to anything, it's complete free reign. There's no detriment, no reason to worry, no reason to approach anything tactically, no reason not to use abilities as often as energy can possibly allow.

------------------------------------------

 

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

6 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

That's an assertion without a lot of evidence to support it, and some reasonably solid evidence against it.

No, there isn't evidence in your favor. There will always be a group of players looking for end game activities in an MMO. Not saying it a large part of players but it isn't "tiny" either.

[(NSW)Greybones]

4 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

No, they've been invalidating warframes for 8 years. Every single boss: invalidation, not countering.

There's not a single counter to any warframe in the game, there's only game modes that are suited for certain frames more than others because they murder faster in that scenario. What counters Saryn? What counters Mesa? What counters Mirage? What counters Volt? Protea? Wisp? etc, etc, etc - there's not a single counter to anything, it's complete free reign. There's no detriment, no reason to worry, no reason to approach anything tactically, no reason not to use abilities as often as energy can possibly allow.

------------------------------------------

 

 

Most counters to a Warframe exist when someone doesn’t specifically build them away; knockdown can be negated with PSF, energy concerns can be built away with combinations of Arcanes and school choice, any sort of threat can be blown away with a Meta that’s clearly the realm of players who aren’t interested in any sort of gameplay remaining when the game probably rolled over and died long ago which apparently wasn’t enough to make them reconsider what they want versus what they’re building for

You get cases like taking Inaros to a No-shield modifier innately undermining the modifier, but like everything else he’s not the only choice, endless energy is not the only choice, PSF and the Meta is not the only choice and thus the game still has a chance to provide those gradients of counterplay against the player if the player isn’t actively trying to avoid them entirely until the game either insta-kills them or nullifies them to get them to stop running away from any semblance of a fight.

I’m looking at redundant amounts of equipped damage mods, g-roll rivens used to push the damage even further, Shieldgate abuse builds, higher-level builds in lower-level content, and endless energy builds and am thinking “You’re saying one thing, and I’m kind of seeing build goals that follow another criteria”; those builds can be great fun to use, but what do you think they’re meant to do?

edit: And even then if someone equips endless energy or PSF, they do only so much on their own and the remainder of the loadouts and the rest of the building process can be whatever and its impact will vary depending on where they take the result; it’s an imprecise science determining where something will sit, but at some point a player makes their intentions clear when they overbuild for way more than what the content asks for

Edited September 26, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[CrownOfShadows]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

 

Most counters to a Warframe exist when someone doesn’t specifically build them away; knockdown can be negated with PSF, energy concerns can be built away with combinations of Arcanes and school choice, any sort of threat can be blown away with a Meta that’s clearly the realm of players who aren’t interested in any sort of gameplay remaining when the game probably rolled over and died long ago which apparently wasn’t enough to make them reconsider what they want versus what they’re building for

You get cases like taking Inaros to a No-shield modifier innately undermining the modifier, but like everything else he’s not the only choice, endless energy is not the only choice, PSF and the Meta is not the only choice and thus the game still has a chance to provide those gradients of counterplay against the player if the player isn’t actively trying to avoid them entirely until the game either insta-kills them or nullifies them to get them to stop running away from any semblance of a fight.

I’m looking at redundant amounts of equipped damage mods, g-roll rivens used to push the damage even further, Shieldgate abuse builds, higher-level builds in lower-level content, and endless energy builds and am thinking “You’re saying one thing, and I’m kind of seeing build goals that follow another criteria”; those builds can be great fun to use, but what do you think they’re meant to do?

edit: And even then if someone equips endless energy or PSF, they do only so much on their own and the remainder of the loadouts and the rest of the building process can be whatever and its impact will vary depending on where they take the result; it’s an imprecise science determining where something will sit, but at some point a player makes their intentions clear when they overbuild for way more than what the content asks for

You and I apparently have very different definitions of counterplay. Mission modifiers and energy economy are not counterplay. Knockdowns might be considered a very poor parkour counter if you stretch it, but that's honestly not even their design purpose.

A counter is when you have a character that is strong in certain areas but weak in others, and you have enemies that are then strong against their weaknesses. A classic gaming example is fire mages being weak to ice. A better and more nuanced example is MOBAs that balance characters against each other, so everyone is strong situationally but you can get "hard countered" by a character that is especially powerful just because of how the abilities match up.

[(PSN)rexis12]

The issue with Enemy Counterplay is that 90% of the time the Counterplay that they have are almost absolute and you can't do anything against them with the exception of having DR or invincibility and mega high Damage.

Staggers and Knockdowns cannot be mitigated with gameplay button press without either having a specific mod or immunity, some Eximus can still blast their powerful abilities even if you CC or knock them down, some enemy have long winded attacks that make them invincible and you can't do anything to mitigate their attacks which is made worse when a good portion of the game is Defense and having a Defense objective die because all you can do when the enemy does 'Omega Kill Move' is just stare at it, makes it frustrating.

 

You know how in Borderlands there's this annoying enemy that explodes when it's in close range and deals a huge amount of damage. You know how it's part of a faction where you can shoot their legs and reduce that threat substantially? Or how about how some of the enemies that can rush you down with very high damaging attacks are more susceptible to CC like how Psychos and Badass Goliaths can still be Shocked.

Warframe doesn't have that, and the few that do are bugged to all hell. Nullifier Drones are, for some reasons, still tied to the flick movement of the Nullifiers LoS, meaning that the counterplay and weakspot move as fast as the enemy can flick their vision which is VERY FAST. CCing a Manic still let's it just disappear, making you question why bother interacting with the mechanic when you can spare the trouble and just kill them. Hell I'm pretty sure a Baliff can still charge you.

 

Heck, here's one. Mania's Opticor blast can stagger you out of Wukong's Defy. Yeah, you heard that right, why give me the option to play around the enemies abilities with my own, you know actually have gameplay, when you'll slap me for daring not to just blast them dead.

[Birdframe_Prime]

7 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

There's not a single counter to any warframe in the game, there's only game modes that are suited for certain frames more than others because they murder faster in that scenario. What counters Saryn? What counters Mesa? What counters Mirage? What counters Volt? Protea? Wisp? etc, etc, etc - there's not a single counter to anything, it's complete free reign. There's no detriment, no reason to worry, no reason to approach anything tactically, no reason not to use abilities as often as energy can possibly allow.

There is. Just not beyond its original addition to the game. Every. Single. Time.

The community. Us. We intentionally threw our collective toys out of the pram every time DE introduced them, so they got nerfed and nerfed and nerfed.

You might not have, I might not have, but the community did. And that includes us by extension.

DE have been trying to release something, anything, that actually limits our powers in the game, that makes it hard, and every single time the 'but mah powah fantasee' crowd shouted it down.

Look at the things they've added over time; Nullifiers, a unit that was directly supposed to counter Mesa, Volt and Saryn by having a Warframe Ability proof barrier that could protect other units with it. Nerfed into oblivion over time to the point where even powers that were supposed to be shut down by it, can damage the bubble and shrink it until it pops. A one-hit shut-off button for players that complained about their high-damage slow-fire weapons that couldn't pop the bubble even though the bubble was deliberately designed to limit the player by requiring a high rate-of-fire weapon to pop quickly.

Sentients that quickly adapted to our damage, forcing players to take multiple-damage-type builds to deal with them. Nerfed, so that they take Status and can have their defenses stripped easily, and every player gets a dedicated way to remove the Adaptation just by jumping out with their Operator. 

Bursas that were introduced as a form of mini-boss that could lock off corridors with high-damage laser barriers, trap Warframes with tether mines, flash-bang players, be massively proof against damage from the front, launch artillery damage to prevent us hiding behind cover. Nerfed again and again so that they couldn't actually inhibit our movement, and so that they could actually take damage from the front on a weak point, and all of the others to make them little more than chunky Moas.

Shield lancers that were designed to be immune to all frontal damage in the early game, only popping out to provide a window of attack, tracking the player to prevent almost all Melee attacks to get players to change up their spam-E tactic from the earlier melee game. Nerfed from punch-through, radial damage, abilities and more.

Overguard and Eximus unit changes designed to actively remove health and energy from players, deal massive damage to ping a Shield Gate and let other units finish us off, toxic aura units that were supposed to charge us down and get in our face, all of them with a layer of protection that prevents CC so that they can keep doing what they're doing. Nerfed over and over to reduce their Overguard, to delay and require more targeting on their AoE abilities, not targeting defense targets if there's a player around. Heck, they can even still be CC'd with Cold, Radiation (on other enemies), Decoy abilities like Resonator, or even the most easy-to-use CC abilities in the game; Gloom.

Infested units getting units that can lay down slowing puddles that hinder our movement. Useless. Units that can knock us down and drag us towards them. Nerfed to make them little more than comedy ragdoll fodder. How often do you see Toxin clouds from Mutalist Ospreys nowadays? The community complained and DE reduced the number of times that would happen, so you'll see one, but rarely more, and almost never the entire screen filling up with them like it did back at the release of the Mutalist units.

Every single thing put in the game to make it challenging has been complained about until it's no longer an issue.

And what's worse, DE made a design decision years ago that completely counters all attempts for them to make things actually slightly difficult; The Sword Alone. An update that dictated that every single enemy and situation could, and should, be approachable and succeeded at by a Warframe with just a melee weapon. Which means that even the other units that were designed to be a slight limiter, like Nox Grineer with their massive armour value for everything except their head-case, can just be slice-and-diced instead of even attempting to headshot them.

All of the elements for actually challenging players are here, already, present and accounted for in Warframe.

They just don't work because we haven't allowed them to work.

Crying about the power fantasy being crippled.

[CrownOfShadows]

4 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

The issue with Enemy Counterplay is that 90% of the time the Counterplay that they have are almost absolute and you can't do anything against them with the exception of having DR or invincibility and mega high Damage.

Staggers and Knockdowns cannot be mitigated with gameplay button press without either having a specific mod or immunity, some Eximus can still blast their powerful abilities even if you CC or knock them down, some enemy have long winded attacks that make them invincible and you can't do anything to mitigate their attacks which is made worse when a good portion of the game is Defense and having a Defense objective die because all you can do when the enemy does 'Omega Kill Move' is just stare at it, makes it frustrating.

 

You know how in Borderlands there's this annoying enemy that explodes when it's in close range and deals a huge amount of damage. You know how it's part of a faction where you can shoot their legs and reduce that threat substantially? Or how about how some of the enemies that can rush you down with very high damaging attacks are more susceptible to CC like how Psychos and Badass Goliaths can still be Shocked.

Warframe doesn't have that, and the few that do are bugged to all hell. Nullifier Drones are, for some reasons, still tied to the flick movement of the Nullifiers LoS, meaning that the counterplay and weakspot move as fast as the enemy can flick their vision which is VERY FAST. CCing a Manic still let's it just disappear, making you question why bother interacting with the mechanic when you can spare the trouble and just kill them. Hell I'm pretty sure a Baliff can still charge you.

 

Heck, here's one. Mania's Opticor blast can stagger you out of Wukong's Defy. Yeah, you heard that right, why give me the option to play around the enemies abilities with my own, you know actually have gameplay, when you'll slap me for daring not to just blast them dead.

You raise a good point here about damage just being the better solution more times than not. The problem with counters certainly is interconnected with our damage problems.

There are some case studies that I think are worth talking about:

1. Arbitration Drones
2. Nullifiers
3. Prosecutors
4. Kuva Guardians

All of these are targeted at countering our raw damage, but all except prosecutors are also immune to our abilities. I'll submit that they are all good enemy types, even if they can be annoying sometimes. Kuva Guardians are probably the best of these simply because they require some special mechanics. I would say that the main problem with all of these though is none of them are threats, they are only delaying tactics. If Kuva Guardians could actually kill you, they'd be much more interesting. But compare them to

1. Thrax
2. Nox

Nox are unfortunately just too weak and melt to bulldozer damage, but unlike arbitration drones which also require gun accuracy, the Nox have a healthy attack, although it's also too weak to be truly threatening, but the idea behind Nox is solid and honestly as far as enemies go I think the Nox are in theory the best enemy in WF. It's a good design it just needs better numbers, and we need more like them.

The Thrax on the other hand have no real weakness, but is a beautiful enemy type because they aren't immune and are one of the few enemies that do real damage. The Thrax in the Zariman are much better than the Circuit Thrax because of their added operator mechanics, which makes them a sort of Kuva Guardian style enemy - a good and interesting mechanic especially since it threatens resurrection.

The thing is, there's a difference between interesting and well designed enemies and real counters. The Thrax don't actually counter anything, despite being great enemies. Same for the Nox. All of the types in the first list counter raw damage, but none of them actually counter warframes either, they just invalidate them while countering damage.

I think the ideal counter is a good combination of danger and weakness, and that weakness has to be something other than raw damage. This makes it hard, because if raw damage doesn't work, then what do you have? This highlights the failure of the elemental damage system, because the easiest and most obvious solution is to make enemies that are weak against cold, or heat, or corrosive or gas. Yes, this was attempted, but we end up in a scenario where brute force is just better, one-size-fits-all, which circles back to our damage problem.

A Damage Solution

Could be to create dangerous enemies that are so hard to kill without the correct element that it's actually better to just bring the correct element to which they die fast, and then expand the tenno arsenal so they can bring 3-4 secondaries or 3-4 melee or something. This way, you'd have to mod secondaries or melee for specific elements "just in case" and bring them as tools for dealing with those enemies. This is because you obviously can't mod on the fly, and if right now in our current system enemies like this existed we just would have no way of dealing with them because we couldn't adapt.

It doesn't feel like a perfect solution, but it would be the best way to bring meaning to damage types that I can think of.

A Warframe Solution

Then in addition to that idea, I would make those same dangerous enemies actually counter warframes in addition to being dangerous. So if a Saryn is detected, a special enemy is spawned that is is quite obviously (visually) weak to one element like cold and that heals for all toxin damage (and maybe heals friendlies too), or perhaps gains armor stacks for every toxin proc, or cures enemies of status around it and propogates that as an antidote mechanism directly opposed to Saryn's. This enemy is dangerous, is coming for you and will kill you, is countering you, and must be dealt with. Of course, you'd need to build a lot of frame-specific counters like this, but it would be healthy.

Edited September 26, 2023 by CrownOfShadows

[(NSW)Greybones]

6 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

You and I apparently have very different definitions of counterplay. Mission modifiers and energy economy are not counterplay. Knockdowns might be considered a very poor parkour counter if you stretch it, but that's honestly not even their design purpose.

A counter is when you have a character that is strong in certain areas but weak in others, and you have enemies that are then strong against their weaknesses. A classic gaming example is fire mages being weak to ice. A better and more nuanced example is MOBAs that balance characters against each other, so everyone is strong situationally but you can get "hard countered" by a character that is especially powerful just because of how the abilities match up.

Then start from the beginning and find out what that counterplay is before you bang on about the lack of counterplay that you are actively avoiding. Every piece of gear that we have has innate strengths and weaknesses from the start, but you’re not going to see what they are if you keep sticking to the few ways to build that don’t allow them to show in the first place because they’re overkilling everything and are invincible, and that involves building in alternative ways.

[CrownOfShadows]

5 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Then start from the beginning and find out what that counterplay is before you bang on about the lack of counterplay that you are actively avoiding. Every piece of gear that we have has innate strengths and weaknesses from the start, but you’re not going to see what they are if you keep sticking to the few ways to build that don’t allow them to show in the first place because they’re overkilling everything and are invincible, and that involves building in alternative ways.

Say something intelligent, Nintendo. I dare you. 😈

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, CrownOfShadows said:

Say something intelligent, Nintendo. I dare you. 😈

I have no idea what that reference is, but I was glancing through your earlier post and facepalming. You’re bringing up ideas and concepts that you yourself would not engage with if they were actively implemented and if they weren’t your ideas.

I think I remember you, too; you’re the guy who thinks the build comes first and the playstyle comes second and is incidental, and that free slots and capacity only exist for damage. Incidentally, I can tell you where your gameplay went; I’m not even sure if you can look at a free slot and bit of capacity without slotting in some redundant damage mod

[motorfirebox]

10 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

No, there isn't evidence in your favor. There will always be a group of players looking for end game activities in an MMO. Not saying it a large part of players but it isn't "tiny" either.

As I already referenced, DE tried this sort of thing before, with Trials. The audience for this content ended up being a tiny minority of players. If you have any counterevidence, I'd love to hear it.

[(NSW)Greybones]

40 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

As I already referenced, DE tried this sort of thing before, with Trials. The audience for this content ended up being a tiny minority of players. If you have any counterevidence, I'd love to hear it.

From what I hear, they ultimately boiled down to standing on some pressure plates because enemies couldn’t put up enough of a fight.

I either didn’t have the gear to meet the minimum requirements or must have missed them in a long break though, so unfortunately I don’t have first hand experience in how they work

Edited September 26, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[CrownOfShadows]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I have no idea what that reference is, but I was glancing through your earlier post and facepalming. You’re bringing up ideas and concepts that you yourself would not engage with if they were actively implemented and if they weren’t your ideas.

I think I remember you, too; you’re the guy who thinks the build comes first and the playstyle comes second and is incidental, and that free slots and capacity only exist for damage. Incidentally, I can tell you where your gameplay went; I’m not even sure if you can look at a free slot and bit of capacity without slotting in some redundant damage mod

Well I definitely remembered you, all you did was insult me last time despite me being excessively patient with you, and here you go again.

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Well I definitely remembered you, all you did was insult me last time despite me being excessively patient with you, and here you go again.

Most of the edits in my posts have been trying to not insult you when I see what you’re building for and then you wishing it didn’t work that way, and I haven’t straight out called you a double standard gamer who needs the sandbox game to tell them what to do and how to play.

You’ve made some of the most powerful builds, crunched the numbers and figured out how to counter everything the game threw at you through your builds alone, joined the discussions on “Ways to bypass x, y, z”. Normally the goal of “I’m unstoppable” would be considered achieved and people would identify that there’s alternatives worth using and playing around with; the game itself only asks for enough survival and damage at any tier of content before giving the player the option to branch out into alternative ways to play whatever that involves

edit: Wait hang on, there may have been some frustration creeping into my dealing with you in our past encounter, but it certainly wasn’t the point to insult

Edited September 27, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones
less harsh

[(PSN)rexis12]

3 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Could be to create dangerous enemies that are so hard to kill without the correct element that it's actually better to just bring the correct element to which they die fast

We do have that, it's any enemy without armour vs any Frame that doesn't have Armour Strip or Insane Moddable Ability damage.

Seriously, Bring Gyre to any mission without the use of an Armor Strip and Rotorswell ends up doing NOTHING.

And I know some people "That's the point of the game." And it jist reminds me of how Borderlands 2 as well had a Super Difficulty that made Slag Mandatory and people not only didn't like it, but they made a conscious effort that just having just one super good element or gameplay to make things palatable was a bad thing and made efforts to reduce the 'Super Effective One Element's in future games.

7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Every single thing put in the game to make it challenging has been complained about until it's no longer an issue

In gonna be honest, besides maybe the Nullifiers Bubble, everything here just screams "Use Big damage to instantly kill threat before they do bs" than anything 'challenging'.

Hell, even seeing you say that having a drone weakspot being a heavy Nerf, instead of an actual mechanical challenge via aiming and tracking the damn thing, doesn't really see me on the idea that it's anymore a good challenge than you might think it is.

 

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

3 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

As I already referenced, DE tried this sort of thing before, with Trials. The audience for this content ended up being a tiny minority of players. If you have any counterevidence, I'd love to hear it.

Your one example proves nothing and trials were removed because of bugs not some excuse you made up. It's pretty ridiculous to think there isn't a part of an mmo's player base that doesn't want end game content.

Edited September 27, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[CrownOfShadows]

2 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

We do have that, it's any enemy without armour vs any Frame that doesn't have Armour Strip or Insane Moddable Ability damage

Ehhhhh... ok but don't forget the other half of what I'm saying there, that's one thing vs like 8+ things if you bring in all the elements. Only needing one thing is definitely boring and not fun. Changing up the playstyle based on what is encountered should be the goal, not forcing one single playstyle.

[(PSN)rexis12]

10 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Changing up the playstyle based on what is encountered should be the goal, not forcing one single playstyle

This i agree, but it should also be actually changing Playstyles' instead of "Big Damage vs Big DR" that we have right now.

The closest that I can think of, of using different elements as a counter (Properly instead of just Doing Big Damage) is Radiation against Eximus Guardians. Some people might say that it's a 'Nerf' that they can be CC'd with Radiation.

I think it's an actual good mechanical attempt to have element be more than just damage bonuses and heal tics. Because using Radiation gets rid of the Guardians 90%. It's a change from just rushing the Guardian, since it allows you approach it with two options with equally valid methods of handling them. Either gun down the mean threat, or use an existing mechanical to reduce the threat of the big one. And this doesn't even cover how Guardians themselves actually reward 1. Aim for shooting between the shields 2. Movement by having the top not be covered in shields thus the Bullet Jump, aim and shot gives you a easier time to kill and 3. Situational Awareness that doesn't immediately punish you with damage that can kill you just because you were distracted by the 50 other things in the room.

It's a method of approach, mechanic based reward that isn't present with the rest of the Eximus or enemies for that matter. Sentients, before the Void cleanse, you either deal big damage or were forced to multi build, you can't counter them with gameplay or existing mechanics so they just told you to play by their rules no questions asked. Nullifiers REQUIRED high fire rate weaponsz telling people that might want to use single target and single fire weapons to go pound sand until they added that stupid drone that doesn't even work half the time.

It's obvious the idea of a reaction to an element and you responding to it is a thing that they understand. The Duviri actually gives you a chance to stop their attacks if you notice the telegraph, but because people here only think that gameplay is just enemy attacks that can't be stopped and  that you need Big DR to tank and trying to stop them from using it is 'Muh Power Fantasy' and 'Too Easy' and it comes with enemies still having high health pools that require high damage, they think that the small amount of Reactable attacks is 'Death on Arrival'.

The Thrax Enemies, once they enter invincible mode, you might as well just look another direction and wait for the attack to finish, because they've entered their unstoppable cutscene attack that had like one QTE at the end. Hell the Legate's tracking is so strong, that you can bullet jump behind it, go a full 20 meters away, and it can 180 hit you, making you wander what the #*!%ing point of having movement is if the tracking is going to be that absurd in the first place.

At least the Nox actually works, because even with the bs that is Overguard it has actual rewarding mechanics and counterplay with abilities and the procs. Aka, with the helmet you just have to worry about a slow toxic attack that you can strafe around. But take out the helmet they have a charge, but that itself makes themselves weak to CC, this giving you a choice to either risk the longer fight but only deal with a less dangerous enemy to take the risk to kill them faster with them having a more disruptive attack, but you are given the options to counterplay them as a result.

[Famecans]

the damage system needs to be nerfed coof coof, I mean "balanced" "polished".

[Birdframe_Prime]

15 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

In gonna be honest, besides maybe the Nullifiers Bubble, everything here just screams "Use Big damage to instantly kill threat before they do bs" than anything 'challenging'.

I beg your pardon, did you mean 'Elden Ring'? ^^

No, but seriously, while big damage would solve many things, there's quite a lot of others that it wouldn't. For example, a long-standing idea that players have had is to use what's in the game already to actually develop enemies so that they actually do counter what we, the players, can do.

Making basic things actually impact us, like... say, consistent player push back on all Heavy Gunner/Supra Tech attacks, including the knock-down attack at close range, preventing us from approaching using only Melee. Making Shield Lancer shields actually interrupt line-of-sight for abilities and AoE functions, as well as preventing all damage from a specific blocking angle, making them track AoE attacks we make behind them, too (which introduces built-in counters to their strength).

Individually the changes would be overcome with 'deal big damage', but in a group they would stack up until a group actually has answers for a large portion of our kit and needs to be approached a little more tactically.

The idea that we don't even need to fix the enemy AI, just add a layer of 'no, we are enemies, not paper targets' to specific functions, make us actually have to acknowledge the enemies for more than the 0.6 seconds it takes to wipe them and four others off the screen.

That? That DE could do.

I'll add to this that DE have trouble with the volume of enemies they can create at once, so this would be an ideal way forward for DE to improve the enemy encounters without having to drive up their actual Enemy AI management programming.

And with that, we have just a little more challenge.

Except... all of these functions were basically just... not appreciated by the people that wanted a power fantasy. So they haven't happened.

The biggest problem that Warframe has is that to actually make it challenging for players again, the first step that would need to be taken is reducing the players' effective power.

[motorfirebox]

17 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Your one example proves nothing and trials were removed because of bugs not some excuse you made up. It's pretty ridiculous to think there isn't a part of an mmo's player base that doesn't want end game content.

a) I didn't claim it proved anything, I said it was evidence, b) the devstream where the "temporary" removal of trials was explained specifically referenced the low traffic and high upkeep, and c) I've never claimed there isn't a part of the playerbase that doesn't want endgame content. I'm just not sure that segment is large enough to justify a significant investment of DE's time and effort.

[CrownOfShadows]

19 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The idea that we don't even need to fix the enemy AI, just add a layer of 'no, we are enemies, not paper targets' to specific functions, make us actually have to acknowledge the enemies for more than the 0.6 seconds it takes to wipe them and four others off the screen.

^^ Everything is just paper targets now, even eximus & often acolytes

[balckillofdeath]

i am really glad their trying to remove the shield gate abuse mechanic next update. and the fact that overguards gives enemies some of the same abilities as us tenno. as in capable of at least taking a hit and not get immediately squashed by CC.  thats one thing i would like to see more of for difficulty is give enemies the same level of power as us.

yes if that means invincibility mechanics thats cool too.

the big thing i would like to see is arbis and steelpath become one thing not two!

though, i must ask how hard should something be? should it require specific loadouts? should it require certain reaction times? should it require deep understanding of mechanics?

personally i dont understand people who complain about boss design in warframe! for almost every boss there at least a unique mechanic you have to work around for you to beat them.

i really disagree with the asseration that the game doesnt have content that caters to veterans! angels of zariman, duvuri SP, rivens, kuva farms, SP itself.

are they difficult? not superbly but definetly more difficult than regular star chart for the most part! 

 

some enemies need some buffs or at least show up more often, like bursas, i never see them ever, knox enemies need weakspot for damage to be higher or finishers for melee.