Saryn struggles to meet her architype's standards as Warframe evolves

[KitMeHarder]

15 hours ago, Drasiel said:

uh... Equinox's only damage ability Maim, deals slash damage with a 100% chance to slash proc. Do you have some other esoteric method by which you are killing enemies with Equinox?

The proc does next to no damage and doesn't benefit from the stored damage. So then you need to utilize helminth abilities to capitalize on the stored damage. Equinox is not good without helminth.

I don't recall your stance on something like this, but IMO this isn't a slight against her. Equinox just has good helminths and Saryn really doesn't. It's part of the game.

15 hours ago, Drasiel said:

It's not that Saryn should be barred from it, it's that you are making bad comparisons.

The comparison is that they both should be killing mobs very fast (KPM), and Saryn's lagging. I understand why someone like Xaku has a mechanical advantage, but that doesn't detract from the fact Saryn needs help. It's simply "Look how fast this frame is killing compared to Saryn. She's not meeting her architype's standards, and deserves some buffs.", nothing more.

Anything this complex never has a "good comparison", but you still need to make it relative.

15 hours ago, Drasiel said:

I assume you mean outgoing damage on health and not damage applied to other defences.

The problem with "open to interpretation" is that some people are going to be incredibly uncharitable about what they think your intentions are.

I understand what you're saying and thank you. But just like you were able to twist the words to make my statement about every damage source benefitting viral's debuff now appear incorrect, you can do that with anything with enough linguistic backflips.

I should be able to expect a degree of common sense. In a place like the forums, I should be able to expect that the majority of people know how viral works. Otherwise, I'd have to explain what 2+2 is, what a mod is, etc... Nothing of substance would ever be discussed then.

Edited August 31, 2023 by KitMeHarder

[prodi1600]

As a spore saryn main, she is a DoT in SP, I do combine her with her augment + archon mods and max range, I only use gloom subsume as shes so squishy that her molt cant regenerate her fast enough. 

At the end of the sessions Im usually 1st or 2nd in total enemies killed.

[Drasiel]

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

The proc does next to no damage and doesn't benefit from the stored damage. So then you need to utilize helminth abilities to capitalize on the stored damage. Equinox is not good without helminth.

I don't recall your stance on something like this, but IMO this isn't a slight against her. Equinox just has good helminths and Saryn really doesn't. It's part of the game.

The comparison is that they both should be killing mobs very fast (KPM), and Saryn's lagging. I understand why someone like Xaku has a mechanical advantage, but that doesn't detract from the fact Saryn needs help. It's simply "Look how fast this frame is killing compared to Saryn. She's not meeting her architype's standards, and deserves some buffs.", nothing more.

Anything this complex never has a "good comparison", but you still need to make it relative.

I understand what you're saying and thank you. But just like you were able to twist the words to make my statement about every damage source benefitting viral's debuff now appear incorrect, you can do that with anything with enough linguistic backflips.

I should be able to expect a degree of common sense. In a place like the forums, I should be able to expect that the majority of people know how viral works. Otherwise, I'd have to explain what 2+2 is, what a mod is, etc... Nothing of substance would ever be discussed then.

My mistake, you're right about that, even if you charge up Mend and then use Energy transfer to preserve the stored damage for Maim it doesn't affect the slash procs. I actually prefer night equinox for the heal and slow so my Day knowledge isn't as comprehensive. 

In the case of KPM Maim is alpha damage, it's everything up front in one strike, and no DoT effect should match the kill speed of that type of damage delivery. Yeah, you have to build Maim up with kills first but the damage is still delivered in an instant effect. Personally, the best argument for improving spores TTK is Gara's Splinterstorm. 

It's not an official fallacy, but the fallacy of common sense should be one. The problem with common sense is that it is incredibly subjective and limited by personal experience. You can simply never encounter what other people consider common sense. You'd think something like not bothering wild animals would be common sense and yet the amount of people that have never interacted with real nature is truly staggering. Everyone on here should know what viral does and why it does what it do, but to get by in the game you only need to know that viral status make number go up, and you'll be able to more than get by.

[AegidiusF]

I'm not really a Saryn lover and I do not use her very often, but I partially agree with you : Spores's damage growth needs some improvements.

I don't know if stripping 100% armor will be nice on most enemies, as Spores (Corrosive damage) will lose the +75% against Ferrite Armor. The change I would like to see on Corrosive Status is not 100% armor strip, but 99% armor strip, which is better to Corrosive damage than a full armor strip. Or, another way to change Corrosive would be to apply the reduction of 80% not to the armor, but to the DR itself.

Another point I don't really agree is the way you compare Saryn spores (+Toxic Lash) with Garuda (4+1+ Grendel) and Mirage (4+Hildryn).

I don't think Spores were designed to kill enemies alone, but in synergy with itself and other abilities. Toxic Lash, of course, and you used it, but also Spores itself (up to four casts) to create more instances of damage on each enemy, Miasma, of course, you also talked about it, but I think Saryn's abilities are designed to work together (they also greatly improve weapon damage).

My only problem with Saryn is her survivability : she is nice, but I think Molt could be a better CC.

P.S.: My most played frames are Banshee, Trinity and Nyx, so I'm not really on killing with ability only, but mostly on buffing weapon damage and CC.

Edited September 1, 2023 by (NSW)AegisFifi

[_Anise_]

On 2023-08-11 at 7:29 PM, KitMeHarder said:

Numerous nerfs to her kit after it was reworked, namely the enemy growth cap on Spores (at current it's a mere 7 enemies).

• (Spores increase their damage the more enemies you have infected. The smaller the cap, the smaller the damage increase over time. In SP you can easily infect 35+ enemies, but only 7 contribute towards your damage.)

 

this may be why I remember it scaling well over 10k damage per tick in the past but now it wont scale past a few thousand ? or maybe it was something else, I struggled to scale the damage compared to what I have seen it

Edited September 1, 2023 by _Anise_

[Valfaun]

I'm just a casual and opportunistic Saryn player, but I agree with this thread's message. On the normal Star Chart, the Spores will eventually reach a critical point if you let them, wipe out the whole area all at once and then rapidly deteriorate because there are no more enemies around to infect. You're less likely to see that pattern on the Steel Path because that critical point takes a long time to reach with those beefy high level enemies, so the Spores are mostly just a nice DoT and Corrosive stacker in addition to your weapons. 

Also, Miasma kinda sucks on the Steel Path because it doesn't really scale at all. I'd change that ability completely into a supportive role, something like a large channeled aura that continually deals Viral damage to enemies affected by Spores every 0.5 seconds as long as they remain within range and for a short while after they leave, with a base 50% chance to proc Viral status with every tick

[Hexerin]

IMO, they should just simply remove the 7 enemy scaling limit, so that every enemy infected causes the damage to increase. Leave it like that for a week or two, see how that one singular change pans out. If it completely breaks the game like the seething haters in this thread predict (it simply won't, though), then the change could easily be reverted with a simple hotfix deploy at any time.

[Drasiel]

1 minute ago, Hexerin said:

IMO, they should just simply remove the 7 enemy scaling limit, so that every enemy infected causes the damage to increase. Leave it like that for a week or two, see how that one singular change pans out. If it completely breaks the game like the seething haters in this thread predict (it simply won't, though), then the change could easily be reverted with a simple hotfix deploy at any time.

they... they don't need to do that, that was how it worked once upon a time. They could definitely increase the limit now though.

[Hexerin]

4 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

they... they don't need to do that, that was how it worked once upon a time. They could definitely increase the limit now though.

"Once upon a time" no longer applies and is thus not a valid argument, as OP has explained a dozen times now.

I won't be going into this further, because OP has already covered this repeatedly.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Hexerin

[Drasiel]

Just now, Hexerin said:

"Once upon a time" no longer applies, as OP has explained a dozen times now. I won't be going into this further, because OP has already covered the arguments.

Okay, so you're a zero sum game sort of person. You know, it doesn't have to be all or nothing, the infinite scaling was completely broken but we could find some nice chonky number in the middle ground. " 'Once upon a time" no longer applies" has real big "REAL Communism/insert-ideology-of-your-choice has never been TRIED" energy, as someone points to all the examples of attempts throughout history. 

[Hexerin]

4 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

" 'Once upon a time" no longer applies" has real big "REAL Communism/insert-ideology-of-your-choice has never been TRIED" energy, as someone points to all the examples of attempts throughout history. 

Ah, so you're completely psychotic. Gotcha, welcome to the ignore list.

[Drasiel]

1 minute ago, Hexerin said:

Ah, so you're completely psychotic. Gotcha, welcome to the ignore list.

Have fun with that :) make sure not to let any contrary opinions so much as cross your mind and be sure to keep insulting people you don't agree with, I'm sure it will work marvellously for you. 

[KitMeHarder]

52 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

they... they don't need to do that, that was how it worked once upon a time. They could definitely increase the limit now though.

She was nerfed because she was too popular/too good in ESO.... A mode with level 60 enemies and which was basically tailor made for her kit. And regardless of the other improvements and downgrades Saryn's gotten in the past few years (you already know which one I think is despairingly more-so), there were things the devs probably didn't consider when she got that nerf.

• Spores should never have been able to spread themselves after the initial cast. That should have been nerfed long before they touched her enemy growth cap.
• ESO's ability locking mechanic forced Saryn into being the defacto number 1. Most nuke frames rely on their 4th ability to nuke, which you could only use once every ~10 seconds, or Simarus would put it on a 15 second cooldown.

You say there should be a limit, but I don't believe you've yet to mention a number (or an estimate). There's already a technical limitation where the game can only spawn about ~35 enemies at a time, is that too much for you? Because that's basically what "unlimited" would mean (and you only get that in places like solo PC SP survival).

• She also only gets +2 damage per enemy per second.

On 2023-08-31 at 11:16 PM, Drasiel said:

Everyone on here should know what viral does and why it does what it do, but to get by in the game you only need to know that viral status make number go up, and you'll be able to more than get by.

I understand what you're saying, but my point is that I don't really care for the opinions of such people when it comes to a discussion about detailed game balance. Everyone is welcome to discuss and ask questions, but if you come in here and start pointing fingers and talking out your ass, then that person can be a Dunning Kruger somewhere else. If you want to spend hours outlining relatively obvious details in your post, then you're welcome to; But I will not, nor do I have the time.

I.E. Just because I use a cellphone and can get it to work, doesn't mean my opinion should have any bearing on how something like the CPU is made. (Nor would I do something like that.)

 

Either way, overall I think we've had a good discussion.

Edited September 19, 2023 by KitMeHarder

[Drasiel]

37 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

She was nerfed because she was too popular/too good in ESO. A mode with level 60 enemies and which was basically tailor made for her kit. And regardless of the other improvements and downgrades Saryn's gotten in the past few years (you already know which one I think is despairingly more-so), there were things the devs probably didn't consider when she got that nerf.

• Spores should never have been able to spread themselves after the initial cast. That should have been nerfed long before they touched her enemy growth cap.
• ESO's ability locking mechanic forced Saryn into being the defacto number 1. Most nuke frames rely on their 4 ability to nuke, which you could only use once every ~10 seconds, or Simarus would put it on a 15 second cooldown.

You say there should be a limit, but I don't believe you've yet to mention a number (or an estimate). There's already a technical limitation where the game can only spawn about ~35 enemies at a time, is that too much for you? Because that's basically what "unlimited" would mean (and you only get that in places like solo PC SP survival).

• She also only gets +2 damage per enemy per second.

I understand what you're saying, but my point is that I don't really care for the opinions of such people when it comes to a discussion about detailed game balance. Everyone is welcome to discuss and ask questions, but if you come in here and start pointing fingers and talking out your ass, then that person can be a Dunning Kruger somewhere else. If you want to spend hours outlining relatively obvious details in your post, then you're welcome to; But I will not, nor do I have them time.

I.E. Just because I use a cellphone and can get it to work, doesn't mean my opinion should have any bearing on how something like the CPU is made. (Nor would I do something like that.)

 

Either way, overall I think we've had a good discussion.

mmmm I disagree, but not completely. While I think that ESO was a contributing factor I don't think it was the only reason. The Spore change to infinite scaling and self spreading happend 2 major updates (or 11 total patches) after Onslaught was added and the nerf to a cap of 10 enemies occurred 5 patches later. There was pretty fierce competition between Volt, Nidus, Khora (I think? it's been a while) and Saryn for who would be Lord of ESO and no one else, despite performing pretty damn close to her effectiveness were ever even touched or considered. You could argue that she was changed because you could afk, which would be fair point but DE don't normally act this fast when it's only affecting one specific activity. Take ember for example, her world on fire only effected low level fissure missions and it was years before that was ever adjusted. That version of saryn's spores was wiping out maps in survival, defence, and interception on top of ESO.

I agree that they should have started with that first before applying additional fixes, we've had major issues with too much correction too fast, recurringly, although they seem to be learning from those mistakes now.  To be fair at the launch of ESO she was a press 4 to nuke frame with the caveat of setting up molt, casting spores on it, and then blowing it up with miasma. 

I haven't mentioned numbers because my numbers would be useless without the data and knowledge to back them up. I feel like there should be a limit, but that doesn't mean I know what that limit should be. I'm not sitting on here atop a pile of Math, Statistics, and Game design degrees to just have a hard number to give you. I suppose I could go do some testing with gather and kill behaviours on the steel path in the higher spawn rate missions to determine what I consider a valid number or  instead of spending all of that effort to satisfy someone else's need I could just say: I think there should be a limit and I think it should be high. I think that because uncapped things have a tendency to come back and bite us in the ass with unforeseen consequences that can cause something to get unnecessarily nerfed in a harsher way than just having a cap in the first place.

Yes, I know how much damage she gets and I did agree with you earlier that her ramp up should be faster, part of that will likely entail bumping that value up too. 

That's fair, I do tend to lean more on a data driven background than beginning from the assumption (and I don't mean assumption in a negative way) that everyone worth talking to on a subject will have the same background. It's certainly easier and more often than not more productive but sometimes you get something really clever from someone laying eyes on the thing with less built up positive and negative biases. I like making sure everyone starts on the same page but that certainly doesn't mean you need to. 

I feel the same. 

[KitMeHarder]

1 hour ago, Drasiel said:

The Spore change to infinite scaling and self spreading happend 2 major updates (or 11 total patches) after Onslaught was added and the nerf to a cap of 10 enemies occurred 5 patches later.

• ESO was added 4/20/18
• Saryn was reworked 5/17/18
• Spores had it's first cap added 5/24/18 
  • Compared to unlimited, a cap of 10 or 7 is basically one and the same.

A hotfix is not a "patch" (they were also largely PC exclusive back then). I think your sense of scale is off. https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Update_22

1 hour ago, Drasiel said:

There was pretty fierce competition between Volt, Nidus, Khora (I think? it's been a while) and Saryn for who would be Lord of ESO and no one else

Nidus was horrendous at ESO. And Khora was only good in extremely small tiles. Volt was popular, but he was no Saryn competitor. Then there was...

• Equinox (you could stack 4 CPs back then)
• (Kinda) Mesa
• And all the other frames that got nerfed because of ESO before/during the Saryn rework, thus solidifying her spot.
  • Exodia Contagion Wukong
  • Link Trinity
  • Sound Quake Banshee
  • Etc... (idk off the top of my head)

1 hour ago, Drasiel said:

but DE don't normally act this fast when it's only affecting one specific activity.

"Normally". There's plenty of reasons this could have not been a normal case.

• DE seemed to be extremely quick when it came to ESO nerfs for some reason
• This was one of if not the first big rework/balancing change Pablo headed
• There have been plenty of knee-jerk reactions from DE.
  • Scarlet Spear Limbo
  • Steel Path Khora
  • Necramech healing Orphix Venom
  • The Vivergate vets talk about
  • Etc...

1 hour ago, Drasiel said:

I think there should be a limit and I think it should be high. I think that because uncapped things have a tendency to come back and bite us in the ass with unforeseen consequences that can cause something to get unnecessarily nerfed in a harsher way than just having a cap in the first place.

But you could define "high" then, no? Like I.E., if I said the I'd agree to a cap of 40 based off all of my personal experience and math, would you agree to it?

Edited September 19, 2023 by KitMeHarder

[Drasiel]

2 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

• ESO was added 4/20/18
• Saryn was reworked 5/17/18
• Spores had it's first cap added 5/24/18 
  • Compared to unlimited, a cap of 10 or 7 is basically one and the same.

A hotfix is not a "patch" (the were also largely PC exclusive back then). I think your sense of scale is off. https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Update_22

Nidus was horrendous at ESO. And Khora was only good in extremely small tiles. Volt was popular, but he was no Saryn competitor. Then there was...

• Equinox (you could stack 4 CPs back then)
• (Kinda) Mesa
• And all the other frames that got nerfed because of ESO before/during the Saryn rework, thus solidifying her spot.
  • Exodia Contagion Wukong
  • Link Trinity
  • Sound Quake Banshee
  • Etc... (idk off the top of my head)

"Normally". There's plenty of reasons this could have not been a normal case.

• DE seemed to be extremely quick when it came to ESO nerfs for some reason
• This was one of if not the first big rework/balancing change Pablo headed
• There have been plenty of knee-jerk reactions from DE.
  • Scarlet Spear Limbo
  • Steel Path Khora
  • Necramech healing Orphix Venom
  • The Vivergate vets talk about
  • Etc...

But you could define "high" then, no? Like I.E., if I said the I'd agree to a cap of 40 based off all of my personal experience and math, would you agree to it?

I have been playing for a very very long time. So some of my perspectives are just going to be different than yours. What are hotfixes now were just all called patches before and I still tend to call them that. Yeah, PC was the test bed for all the fixes because the contracts with the consoles at the time simply didn't allow quick and small code changes. It's taken a long time, a lot of work, and likely a lot of behind the scenes contractual stuff to change that and even with those changes we've still slowed down hotfixes with crosssave although not by as much as people feared. 

My sense of time isn't off, 28 days from the launch of rework to the drastic changes that were put in is ridiculously fast to both collect enough data on the data and move resources over to fix it. To get enough data that looked bad enough to cause that quick of reaction it had to be an obscene outlier and that's not just going to be because of ESO, no matter how new ESO was it just wasn't a big enough part of the game to cause that kneejerk of a response. 

• Nidus and khora were great before they added in larger tiles but their core functions were not changed.
• Volt still excels at it exactly the same way and form as previous.
• Exodia Contagion wukong was not only affecting ESO or at least the exodia contagion part of it wasn't.
• Trinity's link was nerfed continually for years, and ESO had very little to do with it, there was a reason that for 5 years there was literally a meme of "new patch? better nerf trinity".
• Soundquake banshee was also affecting far more than ESO; mobile defence, defense, interception were completely dominated by resoquake.

Those things were not not just nerfed because of ESO, I'm willing to accept that for some of them ESO was the straw that broke the camels back., but there were issues with them well before ESO. Occams Razer, simplest answer is normally the right one. ESO just doesn't matter enough for those kinds of responses, it has nothing really of importance. It's got a frame, two weapons that become less desirable the longer ESO was around and the novelty of "closed beta weapons" wore off, and relics. At the beginning it wasn't even a good focus farm because you didn't get the big convergence boost at the start of the rounds and synthetic eidolon shards just aren't that desirable when there were easier and faster focus farming methods. 

It was the first big rework by pablo but Scott still oversaw it, it's not like they just gave him carte blanche as a UI designer to do whatever he wanted, there was oversight. Of course neither of was there so maybe they did, but I really doubt that because as I've said before we've had lots of frames that completely invalidated anyone else playing specific types of missions and they have been left as is for literal years. 

Ahem. I am very happy I get to pull this out because I really love this meme. No ill will or hostility intended. 

• You are correct Scarlet Spear was not a normal case, it was a limited time event where for the first time since raids were retired, arcanes could be gained outside of Eidolons. Nerfs of that nature are part and parcel of Events, such as Ash's fatal teleport losing it's script kill after rathuum, and loki switch teleporting enemies into teleport volumes script killing enemies was patched out after hostile mergers. ESO unlike many things did not start as an event first and was neither time limited nor did it offer such lucrative rewards. Scarlet Spear single crashed the Arcane market for months and it was glorious.
• Steel Path Khora could hit enemies through walls, and it wasn't just Khora that got nerfed out of that, every melee weapon in the game got line of sight checks and the follow through stat added as a result of those kinds of mechanical behaviours. 
• Orphix venom was also an event and I can assume you can extrapolate most of what I mean by my previous point. It also caused a knock on effect where they reviewed every healing power in the game and we got more consistent if less advantageous healing in certain situations than before.
• I was here for Vivergate, and Vivergate was a problem. Actually Vivergate was 2 problems and entirely changed the way DE handled sweeping changes after that point. 
  • The first problem was that loot never despawned. It didn't matter how long you played, it didn't matter the size of the map, as long as you didn't crash, the loot was there. What this was allowed was complete automation of the frame synergies that allowed Vivergate to occur. With a Mag, Excal, and Trinity (you only needed them but a nekros made it all the more profitable) you could set up macros to play for hours without human input and you would not die because of how the math worked, enemies never even got close to you. 
  • The second problem was that DE panicked and nerfed hard and fast, so hard and fast, they ended up hurting themselves...... in their confusion (sorry couldn't resist). That was when DE stopped reacting with Nerf first and solve the problem second for non time-limited-game-modes. The backlash was so severe because not just the people running bots were furious but literally every one else that had their builds become collateral damage were practically rioting. As a result loot despawning was added to the game.
    • as an interesting little side tangent we actually saw similar issue appear again years later when steel path and arbitrations were added, nothing as extreme as Viver but steel essence and vitus essence was exempt from the despawn timer, so you'd get people playing for hours to rack up piles of it, then as soon as their smeeta buff went off they'd pick up the whole pile. Oh there were so many complaints about people doing that and losing everything to a crash, but really, talk about being hoisted by your own petard. I was goddamn floored they hadn't considered that this would happen especially consider the fact Vivergate existed and was literally caused by loot never despawning. Then again it took them 3 tries to figure out that cosmetics + stats = angry players who can't use what looks good. 

If you want to suggest a cap of 40 based on your experiences  -actually wait, hang on, are we talking damage growth enemy cap or damage addition per enemy? I'm going to answer assuming we are only talking about the former.  If you want to say 40 enemies is the cap I'd say sure let's test it out, it's going to be trial and error anyway and that's not going to be a super involved change that involves multiple people spending lots of time coding stuff, it's just pure number tweak.

I actually missed asking this in my last replay, what technical limitation are you talking about with spawns capped at 35? Are you referring to enemies created in a single instance? We've had staggered spawns and far more than 35 enemies on maps for a while now especially with Steel Path. They damn near don't stop spawning in a 4 man team on the steel path if you happen to roll a difficulty modifier of 5.  

[KitMeHarder]

17 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

Are you referring to enemies created in a single instance?

Yes. You can use max range Spores/Miasma as (effectively) a way to measure how many enemies are on a map at a time. It is extremally extremally rare that you see more than this.

I don't have access to DE's data, but you could also run max enemy radar Khora and manually count a screenshot. (And SP always has 4-players spawns, even in solo.)

22 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

if you happen to roll a difficulty modifier of 5.

?

[Drasiel]

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

Yes. You can use max range Spores/Miasma as (effectively) a way to measure how many enemies are on a map at a time. It is extremally extremally rare that you see more than this.

I don't have access to DE's data, but you could also run max enemy radar Khora and manually count a screenshot. (And SP always has 4-players spawns, even in solo.)

?

Never thought of using that, I'd just run around drawing as much aggro as possible pull them into a gather then nuke them and check how many kills I got on the in-mission progress screen. Even with the spawn cap for the amount of enemies that can be spawned in one instance, with staggered spawns they should be able to bulk up to sizeable numbers. At least in the situations where you want to improve Saryns performance. 

back in the long long ago during the dark ages before we crested double digit updates DE included a now hidden mechanic on the UI whenever you started a mission it was a 1 to 5 value that modifies the spawn speed and spawning amount of enemies. When you start a mission it "rolls" or in more modern, less tabletop terms, randomly generates the value. Having it visible led to a lot of problems, mostly people mass aborting to get a 1 for easier missions or 5 for more density. This led to it being hidden again fairly quickly but the behaviour as far as anyone can tell is still in the game.

You ever run into those mission, especially if you are on lower levels, where it just seems like enemies aren't really spawning and when they do it's slow? Or run into a mission where they just seem to be appearing constantly and faster than normal? That's not just buggy code, it's the difference between rolling a 1 and a 5. The lower spawn rates are more noticeable at lower levels and with game modes like survival where life support can become a real struggle with a low roll until you stay for long enough for the endless scaling to compensate. 

It doesn't seem to apply or perhaps even exist for the Open world missions. I haven't played enough Railjack to confirm if it's there on the space side, but I'd bet money it's in the corpus missions when you enter the ships because those are actual starchart missions hidden in there. It does show up in modified starchart missions like nightmares and syndicate missions so it likely occurs with sorties and arbitrations as well. I think Steel Path missions use it, but ever since crossplay it's been really hard to track density and spawn speed unless you go solo. Steel Paths  already  higher density due to the 4 player spawns made it more difficult to notice but when you have a crossplay host the spawns are always lower and slower automatically and going from that to a PC host feels like the difference between a 1 and 5. Dipping into the purely hypothetically, if I was making the steel path with the design goals we've seen for it I would have hard coded it to be a 5 but who knows what's actually going on in the there at this point. 

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

In ways i agree, saryn was def a nuke frame, but it doesnt exactly bother me that shes been changed to more of a slow poison, mainly cause we have our nuke frames as you mentioned, and i like the feel of a slow poison, dont ask me why, its just different. 

Then you gotta couple it with the fact shes still got abilities while frames like Inaros is just existing right now.

Cant say i want her to change back to just a nuke. I like the passive idea change tho, especially if cold gets to freeze enemies, ive been wanting that effect forever.

Also make status duration + 100%. I like when frames allow me to change up my builds to ones ive never used before. Ive NEVER cared about status duration before as its never lasted long enough for me to go "oh yea worth my mod slots!" 😂 especially since the game rewards for killing quickly and leaving when enemies dont die in less than a second as it just means less resource drops and more time wasted that you could have spent speeding through a new mission.

No more weak passives in warframe please, no more boring small changes, warframes selling point was that they make you feel like youre playing a different game each time you switch, that should continue to exist, good passives do nothing but help contribute to that feeling

On 2023-08-11 at 2:29 PM, KitMeHarder said:

• Garuda, deletes them basically instantly. No passive built up, damage also goes through walls, etc...
• Mirage, same instant deletion, is dealing less damage in the dark, etc... And she doesn't even rely on status effects like the other 2.
• Garuda and Mirage are a small fraction that can do this without literally any weapons, and they're not even the best.

Also DELETE this no more nerfs! Dont even want to risk it no more. I still feel the pain from the smeeta kavat and steel essence nerf. Was the only way the game actually rewarded you for taking on difficulty in endurance instead of making your best option to start over when things get tough, and it felt so good, was so much fun abd made kuva rolling much more tolerable

I need them to add that back as a form of gamemode.