Saryn struggles to meet her architype's standards as Warframe evolves

[KitMeHarder]

By this, I mean her role as a nuker/caster frame that primarily kills with Spores (no weapon damage factored besides to spread Spores). And this is for many reasons.

• Numerous nerfs to her kit after it was reworked, namely the enemy growth cap on Spores (at current it's a mere 7 enemies).
  • (Spores increase their damage the more enemies you have infected. The smaller the cap, the smaller the damage increase over time. In SP you can easily infect 35+ enemies, but only 7 contribute towards your damage.)
• The nerf to elements like corrosive in 2020 (corrosive used to 100% strip armor).
  • As well as the devs intentionally stating that her 4 would not proc more than 1 viral status, after the element got buffed.
• Enemy shields now have (since 2020) a 0 second recharge delay. Heavily hurting frames that rely on small (relatively) infrequent DoTs.
• The addition of Steel Path content, exacerbating the direct and indirect nerfs listed above.
• More new game modes with just enough of a break in enemy spawns to completely lose your accumulated Spore damage.
• Etc...

---------------------

Now, she still remains as a pretty good frame, but that's mainly thanks to the powerful interactions her 3 provides. Shifting her role to that of a weapons platform/tank buster. But I'd like her to still be rewarding to play as a caster, especially in the Steel Path. Returning her fast scaling, keeping her gameplay fast paced, but leaving her "new" weakness to shields for the time being. So these are the changes I'd make.

• Spores - Spores now no longer have an enemy growth cap. ESO is no longer the difficultly threshold of Warframe. An unlimited enemy growth cap will synergize with the increased enemy spawn rate in the Steel Path, letting it naturally scale with said mode's increased difficultly. (And having Spores be uncapped is completely fair, given how fast you lose your damage. It's how her rework was designed from the onset.)
• Passive - Status Effects inflicted by Saryn's weapons and abilities have 25% more duration and effectiveness.
  • Added "increased status effectiveness" to Saryn's passive. Making an otherwise (IMO) lackluster passive, much more enticing. As well as returning some of Spore's power back to it. This is how the new stat will interact with our current statuses at max stacks (can be limited to only the elements her kit deals: Toxin, Corrosive, and Viral).
    • Impact
      • +40%->+50% increased health threshold for a parazon finisher.
    • Puncture
      • 80%->100% reduced enemy damage (could be capped at 95%).
      • 25%->31.25% increased additive critical chance to direct damage.
    • Slash 
      • 100%->125% total DoT damage.
    • Cold 
      • 90%->100% slow (could be capped at 95%).
      • 50%->62.5% increased critical damage.
    • Electric 
      • 100%->125% total DoT damage.
    • Heat
      • 100%->125% total DoT damage.
      • 50%->62.5% armor strip.
    • Toxin 
      • 100%->125% total DoT damage.
    • Blast 
      • 75%->93.75% enemy accuracy reduction.
    • Corrosive 
      • 80%->100% armor strip (no cap, as this lets Saryn full strip like she used to for years).
    • Gas 
      • 100%->125% total DoT damage.
      • 6m->7.5m cloud AoE.
    • Magnetic 
      • +325%->+406.25% damage to shields.
    • Radiation 
      • +550%->+687.5% damage from former allies.
    • Viral 
      • +325%->+406.25% damage to health.
    • Void 
      • N/A (although something like increasing the AoE from 2.5m to 3.125m could easily be added).

TL;DR: Spores+Miasma alone isn't the best at killing enemies anymore, especially in the Steel Path. My suggestion is to remove the 7 enemy growth cap on spores, and to buff her passive so Corrosive can completely armor strip again (among other things).

-------------------------

Videos meant to show the reality that Saryn has to compete with (not 1:1 comparisons):

Here are some videos, and I'll give you some context. 

• All 3 are against level 135 Steel path Elite Lancers (literally minute 0 of Kuva survival). Effectively the average (and abundant) mid-tier enemy in Grineer missions.
  • Saryn takes an entire 1 minute 15 seconds to kill them. Say I give you the benefit of the doubt and you're constantly spamming Miasma, that's still well over 30 seconds to kill them.
    • It doesn't matter if she keeps this damage. It takes way too damn long, pales in comparison to the below examples, and has massive downsides where you can easily lose most, if not all of the accumulated damage (even in a mode like Survival).
  • Garuda, deletes them basically instantly. No passive built up, damage also goes through walls, etc...
  • Mirage, same instant deletion, is dealing less damage in the dark, etc... And she doesn't even rely on status effects like the other 2.
  • Garuda and Mirage are a small fraction that can do this without literally any weapons, and they're not even the best.

Edited September 2, 2023 by KitMeHarder

[(PSN)Sentiel]

Saryn struggles to be a nuke...?

[KitMeHarder]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

Saryn struggles to be a nuke...?

Have you played a spores build against SP grineer (don't conflate the weapon damage part that most frames can largely do)? She doesn't really do that good'a damage until you get around 8-10k spore damage. Before then she is surpassed my most other frames that nuke effectively instantly.

Saryn is known meme-wise and historically as a nuke frame (her kit is also good at "kill stealing"), but it doesn't really hold up in the later parts of the game. It can even not be amazing at lower levels (sortie), given how many modes have long breaks between enemy spawns.

[GPrime96]

3 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

The nerf to elements like corrosive in 2020, as well as the intentional prevention of letting her 4 get stronger with viral's buff.

This is the most significant change to Saryn since her 1 builds up damage the longer they’re on a enemy until it’s own damage cap and the damage type is Corrosive which isn’t something to rely on everytime. Her spores synergy with Toxic Lash, Condition Overload, and Miasma is what keeps it being a worthy ability (especially with how strong Toxic Lash is for DoT builds). 

[Pizzarugi]

2 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Have you played a spores build against SP grineer (don't conflate the weapon damage part that most frames can largely do)?

I don't, but I run into way too many Saryns to tell you that I know enough about them.

Unless I bring the absolutely most powerful weapons available in the game, they always wind up dealing far more kills and damage over the course of the mission than I do.

[Zakkhar]

34 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

I don't,

So, if you do not play the content that is being doscussed, why add your point? Saryn doesnt struggle in ESO or base SP, but it does in SP circuit.

[KitMeHarder]

42 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

I don't, but I run into way too many Saryns to tell you that I know enough about them.

So not just anecdotal evidence, but from a third-party PoV too?

Personally, I play her and most nuke frames all the time in SP kuva survival, and I know Spores often don't (non-kill steal) kill even medium-tier enemies until I've built up 8-10k damage. And that takes a couple minutes to do, and it's easy to lose large chunks of your damage from "overkilling". Where as it takes a couple seconds to press a few buttons on Garuda, Mirage, Equinox, etc... and the entire room/tile is dead/constantly dying.

42 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Unless I bring the absolutely most powerful weapons available in the game, they always wind up dealing far more kills and damage over the course of the mission than I do.

I already outlined how this is not a point in my post. The only thing I left out is that yes, she's always going to be doing a bit of chip damage to all nearby enemies (that's not nuking them) to have a façade of damage dealt. And...

• Is this Steel Path?
• What weapons/frames do you typically use?
• How much of a "try hard" are you typically? (As typically, Saryns are. And they need to be, if they want to maintain Spore damage in coop.)
• What weapons are the Saryns using? (Often meta ones because of the above reasons. And also, these kills and the ones from Toxic Lash don't matter in context to my point.)
• Etc...

(Also, I.E. dealing 15% damage to 140 enemies, is the same "damage dealt" as another frame outright nuking a mere 21 enemies. Makes it look big... isn't (nor does it feel) big.) 

Edited August 11, 2023 by KitMeHarder

[Zakkhar]

41 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Unless I bring the absolutely most powerful weapons available in the game, they always wind up dealing far more kills and damage over the course of the mission than I do

Again you miss the point. If an unbuffed weapon could nuke as good as Saryn, she could use this weapon to be more effective. The comparison is between skill based frames (some of which to achieve their nuking potetial must subsume some kind of armor strip), I guess you could subsume Terrify on her 2, but it do not think it would solve the problem.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Zakkhar

[Tiltskillet]

Quote

Passive - Status Effects inflicted by Saryn's weapons and abilities have 25% more duration and effectiveness.

Just going to contrast with Ash, that has +50% duration and +25% damage...but only on bleeds.  And I still think that's seen as one of the better passives in the game.

I don't have a clue if Saryn needs help or not.  But  perhaps targeting Spores and Spore synergies exclusively is a better tack to take.  Rather than buff her other abilities and weapon use, in addition to Spores.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Tiltskillet

[KitMeHarder]

58 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

they always wind up dealing far more kills and damage over the course of the mission than I do.

Also, I forgot. Damage you deal TO SPORES, there's a decent chance it counts as "damage dealt". So every time you pop the 3 spores on an enemy with your Ignis Wraith... 16 times a second x3, counts all of that non-critical damage towards your total damage.

Someone is welcome to fact check me if I'm wrong.

[KitMeHarder]

9 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Just going to contrast with Ash, that has +50% duration and +25% damage...but only on bleeds.  And I still think that's seen as one of the better passives in the game.

• Her passively is lackluster like most (early) frames. Most enemies do not survive 6+ seconds of having a slash, heat, toxin, etc... DoT on them. Nor do non-damage status ever wear off once you've started to apply them really. So it very much was also in need of a buff.
• I'm fine with removing the DoT damage increase and/or status duration of her passive, but it'd just mean it'd go back to being lackluster for 3 of the elements. (One of which is in her kit.) (And I don't like removing parts of kits needlessly, in case someone uses that aspect.)
• Plenty of frames have straight-up better passives than other frames.
  • Different (easy) conditions, but Zephyr 150% crit chance with all weapons. Yareli has 200%.. with secondaries, Styanax doesn't even have 49% (98% with spearguns) with full overshields (very hard to maintain pre-augment).
  • Grendel gets 1,250 armor (much less/much harder to maintain pre-rework) with a full belly. Atlas gets 1,500, knockdown immunity, and healing.
  • Saryn gets 25% status duration... Lavos gets as much as he wants with ability duration, as well as status immunity on energy orb pick up, the ability to pick what damage his abilities do, etc...
  • Etc...

21 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

But  perhaps targeting Spores and Spore synergies exclusively is a better tack to take.

It was primarily changed so that spores could full armor strip again. But her passive has always sucked, so it seemed like a creative idea to fix both issues the way I did. (Also, it was more logical that simply saying something like Spores is the exception to the Corrosive rule.) But if you'd prefer her passive now only apply to elements with toxin in them (toxin, corrosive, viral, gas), that'd be fine too. Ultimately I'll just leave it up to the devs though (one can hope). 

[Tiltskillet]

5 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

I'm fine with removing the DoT damage increase and/or status duration of her passive, but it'd just mean it'd go back to being lackluster for 3 of the elements. (One of which is in her kit.) (And I don't like removing parts of kits needlessly, in case someone uses that aspect.)

What if it the effectiveness bonus was just Toxic, Corrosive, and Viral, the three status procs that are in her kit?

[SpicyDinosaur]

1 hour ago, Zakkhar said:

So, if you do not play the content that is being doscussed, why add your point? Saryn doesnt struggle in ESO or base SP, but it does in SP circuit.

Funny, I do often play Saryn when I get to in SP circuit, and she trashes things. Besides circuit not being a very good example of anything. I find that different frames will do well there because you can't anticipate other parts of your kit that may allow for more versatility normally. I'm sorry but are you trying to balance things off a game mode with the boosts that come from decrees? Really?

[KitMeHarder]

4 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

What if it the effectiveness bonus was just Toxic, Corrosive, and Viral, the three status procs that are in her kit?

A little odd how one half is for everything, and the other is for only 3 elements, but sure. Like I said, ultimately I gave my reasonings, with the final decision not being mine regardless.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 5 heures, KitMeHarder a dit :

By this, I mean her role as a nuker/caster frame that primarily kills with Spores. And this is for many reasons.

• Numerous nerfs to her kit after it was reworked, namely the enemy growth cap on Spores (at current it's a mere 7 enemies).
  • (Spores increase their damage the more enemies you have infected. The smaller the cap, the smaller the damage increase over time. In SP you can easily infect 35+ enemies, but only 7 contribute towards your damage.)
• The nerf to elements like corrosive in 2020, as well as the intentional prevention of letting her 4 get stronger with viral's buff.
• Enemy shields now have a 0 second recharge delay. Heavily hurting frames that rely on small (relatively) infrequent DoTs.
• The addition of Steel Path content, exacerbating the direct and indirect nerfs listed above.
• New game modes with just enough of a break in enemy spawns to completely lose your accumulated Spore damage.
• Etc...

 

I know I'm lacking imagination, but to see a Saryn buff thread in 2023 considering her performances? Never saw it coming.

Let's adress the elephant in the room first, Saryn "struggling" to meet her architype's standards.

How so? By being significantly stronger than her caster counterparts?

• If you have issues reaching the 70k damage per tick cap, it's either two things : you're either not doing endurance runs (in which you can't adopt a passive playstyle regardless) or you're running out of enemies to infect ( in which case it could be any of a range, skill, or mob level issue).
• Sure let's have a no line of sight ability wreck house with the press of a single button and no effort whatsoever. Miasma was rightfully nerfed, let's not even go there. As for corrosive, what are you expecting? We all know how powerful full 100% armor strip is against steel path grineer, who would want that with something as easy as applying 10 stacks of corrosive with any weapon or any moment Saryn decides to take a fart?
• Enemy shield recharge bites if you only ever rely on your spores to do damage, which isn't really that far from the despised AFKong playstyle. Nevertheless, whatever has shields is either toxin fodder or something that just your spores weren't going to take care of on their own regardless (stuff like bursas or your average lvl 9999 oxium drone).
• Regular star chart is a cake walk for Saryn. Base steel path isn't so overwhelmingly hard that Saryn can't kill any of it with just her abilities (unless you're a 40% strength Saryn in which case I question your sanity). A free 80% armor strip, bypassing shields with weapons and 100% vulnerability by default is a pretty big deal that most frames have to go on without, yet others manage just fine.
• As for game modes breaking enemy spawns, making you lose spore damage, aside from Circuit and Defense, I don't see any other having such issues (even something as obscure as Orphix doesn't have this sort of issue, although you're meant to use a necramech anyway). In the case of defense, it's by design, everyone gets a break before each new wave. Looking at the Circuit, it's several mission types that are completely different from one another repeating in a loop, some in which spores are pretty much worthless or are gonna end up decayed, namely Assassination and Defense.
• Etc...

 

Il y a 6 heures, KitMeHarder a dit :

Now, she still remains as a pretty good frame, but that's mainly thanks to the powerful interactions her 3 provides. Shifting her role to that of a weapons platform/tank buster.

If you understood this, why go with the blatant lie with struggling to meet said standards?

Il y a 6 heures, KitMeHarder a dit :

But I'd like her to still be rewarding to play as a caster, especially in the Steel Path. Returning her fast scaling, while keeping her gameplay fast paced, as well as leaving her "new" weakness to shields for the time being.

If you are so desperate to make Saryn a fast paced caster in steel path then just run Tharros Strike over her 2. Wanna still be weak to shields? Go on with Terrify. I know damn well everything shouldn't be solved with Helminth, but I know just as much that Saryn isn't JUST a caster. Get off the nostalgia copium and move on.

Il y a 6 heures, KitMeHarder a dit :

 

• Spores - Spores now no longer have an enemy growth cap. ESO is no longer the difficultly threshold of Warframe. An unlimited cap will synergize with the increased enemy spawn rate in the Steel Path, letting it naturally scale with said mode's increased difficultly. (And having Spores be uncapped is completely fair, given how fast you lose your damage. It's how her rework was designed from the onset.)
• Passive - Status Effects inflicted by Saryn's weapons and abilities have 25% more duration and effectiveness.
  • Added "increased status effectiveness" to Saryn's passive. Making an otherwise (IMO) lackluster passive, much more enticing. As well as returning some of Spore's power back to it. This is how the new stat will interact with our current statuses at max stacks.
    • Impact
      • +40%->+50% increased health threshold for a parazon finisher.
    • Puncture
      • 80%->100% reduced enemy damage (could be capped at 95%).
      • 25%->31.25% increased additive critical chance to direct damage.
    • Slash 
      • 100%->125% total DoT damage.
    • Cold 
      • 90%->100% slow (could be capped at 95%).
      • 50%->62.5% increased critical damage.
    • Electric 
      • 100%->125% total DoT damage.
    • Heat
      • 100%->125% total DoT damage.
      • 50%->62.5% armor strip.
    • Toxin 
      • 100%->125% total DoT damage.
    • Blast 
      • 75%->93.75% enemy accuracy reduction.
    • Corrosive 
      • 80%->100% armor strip (no cap, as this lets Saryn full strip like she used to for years).
    • Gas 
      • 100%->125% total DoT damage.
      • 6m->7.5m cloud AoE.
    • Magnetic 
      • +325%->+406.25% damage to shields.
    • Radiation 
      • +550%->+687.5% damage from former allies.
    • Viral 
      • +325%->+406.25% damage to health.
    • Void 
      • N/A (although something like increasing the AoE from 2.5m to 3.125m could easily be added).

 

TL;DR: Spores+Miasma alone isn't the best at killing enemies anymore, especially in the Steel Path. My suggestion is to remove the 7 enemy growth cap on spores, and to buff her passive so Corrosive can completely armor strip again (among other things).

Yeah let's go on and remove that nasty cap so as to make Saryn """viable""" in steel path, what's the worst that could happen. It most definitely won't impact normal star chart so bad that people will end up thinking thermal sunder spammers make the game fun and interractive.

Let's also buff one of the most convenient passives in the game while everyone takes turn pointing and laughing at Frost, Inaros, Nyx and Xaku. 25% longer status isn't gonna matter on fodder, that's a given, but on enemies like demolysts, 25% increased status duration is a straight dps increase. Some frames don't even have a passive remotely as good or appropriate.

Although not gonna lie, you had me in tears when suggesting to increase Blast's accuracy reduction, when it's a status that never goes to 10 stacks because no one in their right minds will ever build for it on a weapon, so it's always low on proc priorities anyway; and well, you know... accuracy reduction. Like that's ever saved anyone in steel path anyway.

 

 

At the end of the day, all I'm seeing is just "oh no, I can't be just spamming 1 and 4 in steel path". If you're so desperate to do damage while being completely afk, try giving Octavia a spin, she'll give you a run for your money in steel path even without armor strip. Saryn's been reworked and nerfed time and time again to prevent more of her "spam 4 to win" bs, instead incentivizing a more active gameplay to get results, she's some of the best dps frames you can play with and you can justify just about any build with whatever ability... so in the end, why? Why all of that? Why this thread to ask for a buff on some S+ tier frame?

[GPrime96]

12 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

If you have issues reaching the 70k damage per tick cap, it's either two things : you're either not doing endurance runs (in which you can't adopt a passive playstyle regardless) or you're running out of enemies to infect ( in which case it could be any of a range, skill, or mob level issue).

High level Saryns would definitely rely on weapons than spores to kill enemies (since Corrosive don’t scale that well and mainly use for Condition Overload/Galvanized Aptitude/Shot/Savvy) unless it’s a Expedite Suffering Saryn. So reaching the spore cap would be a rarity unless the Saryn is killing the enemies very slow. 

[KitMeHarder]

47 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Let's also buff one of the most convenient passives in the game while everyone takes turn pointing and laughing at Frost, Inaros, Nyx and Xaku

It's one of the least impactful passives in the game (it really takes you over 6 seconds to kill an enemy you're shooting/meleeing?), excluding completely worthless ones like Rhino's. And that fact you think Xaku's sucks tells me all I need to know.

47 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

If you have issues reaching the 70k damage per tick cap, it's either two things : you're either not doing endurance runs

Ah yes, silly me, SP endurance in the handful of modes that continually spawn enemies is the entire game. (Not that I even mentioned the damage cap anywhere.)

47 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

eah let's go on and remove that nasty cap so as to make Saryn """viable""" in steel path, what's the worst that could happen. It most definitely won't impact normal star chart so bad that people will end up thinking thermal sunder spammers make the game fun and interractive.

This makes it sound like you don't even know how Spores work.

47 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Enemy shield recharge bites if you only ever rely on your spores to do damage, which isn't really that far from the despised AFKong playstyle.

Yes, cause every time you kill an enemy with an ability automatically means it can only be done AFK and while abusing the game.

47 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

As for game modes breaking enemy spawns, making you lose spore damage, aside from Circuit and Defense, I don't see any other having such issues (even something as obscure as Orphix doesn't have this sort of issue

Interception, Infested Salvage, Void Armageddon, ESO, etc... And the fact you brush off two of the most relevant modes and then sh*t out what is effectively a Necramech only mode to make yourself feel better, is really something.

47 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

If you understood this, why go with the blatant lie with struggling to meet said standards?

I'm not even going to bother responding the rest of your post, if you won't even read the first line of mine. Caster frames (frames that primarily kill with abilities, I.E. Khora), don't spam weapon fire to get the majority of their kills, any frame can equip a meta weapon. (Which is very different from shooting one enemy so the spread Spores kill the nearby 15.)

I was more than ready for the Saryn hate. But at least be intelligible and non-ignorant when you do it.

Edited August 12, 2023 by KitMeHarder

[Drasiel]

12 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

By this, I mean her role as a nuker/caster frame that primarily kills with Spores. And this is for many reasons.

• Numerous nerfs to her kit after it was reworked, namely the enemy growth cap on Spores (at current it's a mere 7 enemies).
  • (Spores increase their damage the more enemies you have infected. The smaller the cap, the smaller the damage increase over time. In SP you can easily infect 35+ enemies, but only 7 contribute towards your damage.)
• The nerf to elements like corrosive in 2020, as well as the intentional prevention of letting her 4 get stronger with viral's buff.
• Enemy shields now have a 0 second recharge delay. Heavily hurting frames that rely on small (relatively) infrequent DoTs.
• The addition of Steel Path content, exacerbating the direct and indirect nerfs listed above.
• New game modes with just enough of a break in enemy spawns to completely lose your accumulated Spore damage.
• Etc...

Saryn is a caster but she isn't a nuker, she's the DOT Queen. 

The enemy growth cap slows how quickly she can get her damage up, but considering spores is one of the few abilities that also has a damage cap and it's 70k per second it's not like the damage growth hamstrings her into uselessness. It maintains the over-time aspect of the ability which in earlier iterations was almost nonexistent. A single casting of spores would kill everything in under a few seconds. There was no point in playing when you matchmade a Saryn. If people think players bailing on Sanctuary Onslaught nowadays is a problem imagine encountering that on every mission where you never got to see any enemies and just damage numbers that vanished before you even got to the room.

The Nerf to corrosive removed its permanent duration and reduced its effectiveness to 80% armour removal. While this affected other damage types paired with corrosive this wasn't the catastrophic build-ending debacle for corrosive itself. It's still the most effective armour removal option and with the oft-ignored or forgotten property of damage types that have a bonus vs armour, it still excels. Corrosive damage itself ignores a percentage of armour equivalent to its damage bonus against that armour type and then applies the bonus damage to the remaining armour, without the corrosion status being present or applied.

I have no idea what you are talking about with miasma not gaining boosted damage from viral status. This is really easy to test and see in practice. You can see miasma's damage double from the initial hit which applies one stack of viral to its first dot, and you can apply 10 stacks of viral with a weapon and also see miasma's damage increase accordingly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA4xjpbaOxM

The shields thing is strange, I don't remember reading about that change in the patch notes and the historic notes in the shield page of the wiki doesn't list the change either. What's even stranger is that the shields don't regen at all on the corpus units once they are all removed (even after waiting 2 minutes) unless there is an osprey. I'm actually wondering if something is bugged there. However, calling spores DOT small or infrequent is damn near a bald-faced lie, it's easy to build up thousands of damage and ticks every second.

The only time I've experienced a "break" in enemy spawns in the newer missions is when playing with a console host which lowers the spawns, or we've killed everything faster than it can spawn, so mission-accomplished abilities performing as expected. 

What is etc? Your previous claims leave the existence of other tenable negatives that are affecting spores' effectiveness suspect.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

10 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Have you played a spores build against SP grineer (don't conflate the weapon damage part that most frames can largely do)? She doesn't really do that good'a damage until you get around 8-10k spore damage. Before then she is surpassed my most other frames that nuke effectively instantly.

I don't know what a 'spore build ' is, nor do I care to find out, but questioning a frames viability based on a single specific build is asinine.

SP Kuva Survival should be fairly high level and difficult Grineer only mode, so I went there for a bit with Saryn just to see if your argument is valid. I went in solo, no companion, and my only weapon was Argo & Vel (alphabetic pick). It went fairly well. My only problem was the lack of radar and vacuum. The only enemies that didn't die within 1 or 2 seconds were Eximi and Acolytes. The former, I finished off with Parazon when they got weak enough, the latter withered away eventually if I ignored them.

This is the build I used.

I'm sure you will find further arguments and nitpicks, but as I've just proven, Saryn is fine and this whole thing you have here all sounds like a skill issue to me.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 12 heures, KitMeHarder a dit :

And that fact you think Xaku's sucks tells me all I need to know.

The fact you do this thread and think otherwise about Xaku's passive proves you're a troll.

Il y a 12 heures, KitMeHarder a dit :

Ah yes, silly me, SP endurance in the handful of modes that continually spawn enemies is the entire game. (Not that I even mentioned the damage cap anywhere.)

I'm pointing SP endurance, just because that's the only place spores would ever """struggle""" at killing. Spores struggle nowhere else, period. If you can't accept this fact, that just makes you a delusional brainlet with no sense of reality.

Il y a 12 heures, KitMeHarder a dit :

This makes it sound like you don't even know how Spores work.
 

This entire thread makes YOU sound like you don't even know how Spores work. They struggle in gamemodes where any other ability would face the same fate, which, again, is why I pointed out SP endurance, but that got over your head. Twice.

Il y a 12 heures, KitMeHarder a dit :

Interception, Infested Salvage, Void Armageddon, ESO, etc... And the fact you brush off two of the most relevant modes and then sh*t out what is effectively a Necramech only mode to make yourself feel better, is really something.

I went on about Orphix jokingly and specifically said you're meant to go with a Necramech anyway, are you dumb or simply unable to read?

Defense? Relevant? Are we really stuck in 2014 right now?

Struggling in Interception, you mean the one gamemode where you could deal zero damage and still finish the round in the same amount of time?

Struggling in Infested Salvage, you mean the one gamemode that nobody cares about, with millions of infested spawning everywhere such that you can never have your spores decay unless in between rounds just like a defense?

Struggling in Void Armageddon, that's also just a defense reskin? Of course your spores are gonna decay more than in Defense, the downtime is nearly a minute long.

Struggling in ESO? You mean that game mode that resets energy and abilities in between each conduit jumps?

Etc.. because you have no argument and throwing a tantrum every time someone tells you you need a reality check.

Il y a 12 heures, KitMeHarder a dit :

I'm not even going to bother responding the rest of your post, if you won't even read the first line of mine. Caster frames (frames that primarily kill with abilities, I.E. Khora), don't spam weapon fire to get the majority of their kills, any frame can equip a meta weapon. (Which is very different from shooting one enemy so the spread Spores kill the nearby 15.)

I'm above that, I at least read yours. Bothered to reply. Twice now. You were already in the wrong the second you said Saryn doesn't primarily kill with her spores. Everything fodder dies to it, no matter the mission, no matter the level. Whatever doesn't are usually high prio targets / bosses / high level eximus, stuff that other abilities from other frames already don't kill or simply won't even affect in the first place.

 

Il y a 12 heures, KitMeHarder a dit :

I was more than ready for the Saryn hate. But at least be intelligible and non-ignorant when you do it.

The Saryn hate? Ignorance? Lol? She's my 5th most played frame, top 3 if we're combining base and prime. Your baseless accusations further proves you're in complete denial. It's not someone else's fault you're trying so hard to play her wrong. If you're craving a cast&nuke frame so bad, then just play terrify equinox and stop your bullS#&$.

Like the guy above me just said. It was nothing else than a skill issue. You're not just a clown, you're the entire circus and being so adamant about aggresively defying logic and facts is shooting yourself in the knee. Next time Margulis offers you to smell a Grendel fart for inspiration, you say no.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Fred_Avant_2019

[Tiltskillet]

15 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

A little odd how one half is for everything, and the other is for only 3 elements, but sure.

Well, if the asymmetry bothers you, the duration bonus could be dropped, since apparently it doesn't matter anyway. :P  (In case it's not totally clear, I'm just teasing you a bit.)

[Zakkhar]

On 2023-08-12 at 2:35 AM, SpicyDinosaur said:

Funny, I do often play Saryn when I get to in SP circuit, and she trashes things. Besides circuit not being a very good example of anything.

It is very good example of fast scaling over time (way faster than any SP endurance). At base Circuit it works the same as at base SP, very well. But at lvl 2000+ SP Saryn's impact is laughable. As is any other warframe that relies on non Bleed, non super scaling/rapidly delivered damage without involvement of some kind of armor strip. But again, I cannot predict whether armor strip fixes the Saryn's issue, because killing too fast can be counterproductive on her (Decay).

Edited August 13, 2023 by Zakkhar

[KitMeHarder]

20 hours ago, Drasiel said:

Saryn is a caster but she isn't a nuker, she's the DOT Queen.

DoTs does not mean magnitudes slower in the killing department. Garuda is a DoT frame, and her damage is near instant. Saryn's ramp is too slow for how harsh of a punishment it has.

20 hours ago, Drasiel said:

but considering spores is one of the few abilities that also has a damage cap and it's 70k per second it's not like the damage growth hamstrings her into uselessness.

The damage growth cap is definitely hamstringing the ability. And I don't know why Spores' maximum possible damage keeps being brought up, it's not even a factor for 99% of the game.

20 hours ago, Drasiel said:

It maintains the over-time aspect of the ability which in earlier iterations was almost nonexistent. A single casting of spores would kill everything in under a few seconds. There was no point in playing when you matchmade a Saryn. If people think players bailing on Sanctuary Onslaught nowadays is a problem imagine encountering that on every mission where you never got to see any enemies and just damage numbers that vanished before you even got to the room.

Not really. And you're more thinking about when it used to spread spores on spore kills, making an actual AFK playstyle. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to run to another enemy fast enough (unlimited instant spawning level ~60 enemies) to spread the spores manually like you have to today, nor can you spam Miasma is ESO.

There was also no SP back then.

20 hours ago, Drasiel said:

It's still the most effective armour removal option and with the oft-ignored or forgotten property of damage types that have a bonus vs armour

I am aware of how damage is calculated in WF. And I'm sure you're also aware, while partial strips aren't worthless, they are inconsequential compared to full strips. There's a reason most people try so hard to reach stat caps on said abilities.

And there's also 3 different types of enemy armor in WF, 2 of which aren't weak to corrosive.

20 hours ago, Drasiel said:

I have no idea what you are talking about with miasma not gaining boosted

The patch notes in 2020 specifically mention that Miasma would only be allowed to apply one viral stack. Because (from what I could tell) Miasma applied viral every tick to reapply the status... Well, that was when Viral was mid and couldn't stack, so DE went out of their way to prevent it from getting buffed. (Mind you, this really only matters because they were more than ok with Spores being nerfed alongside corrosive.)

20 hours ago, Drasiel said:

What's even stranger is that the shields don't regen at all on the corpus units once they are all removed (even after waiting 2 minutes) unless there is an osprey.

Yes, it's been this way since 2020. No recharge delay so long as they have shields up, but once they break, they stay broken. 

Before, Corpus shields were something like old tenno shields (before the buff, shields took 3 seconds to start regening whether you had partial shields or no shields.)

20 hours ago, Drasiel said:

However, calling spores DOT small or infrequent is damn near a bald-faced lie

Compared to weapons/abilities that deal large or extremely fast DoTs? No even close. Spores lose exponentially more damage fighting shield regen compared to weapons or other DoT frames like Garuda/Protea.

20 hours ago, Drasiel said:

The only time I've experienced a "break" in enemy spawns in the newer missions is when playing with a console host which lowers the spawns,

I guess you don't play the game then, because there's a big long ass break between every rotation when I play in the Circuit, among other modes.

Edited August 13, 2023 by KitMeHarder

[KitMeHarder]

19 hours ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

SP Kuva Survival should be fairly high level and difficult Grineer only mode, so I went there for a bit with Saryn just to see if your argument is valid. I went in solo, no companion, and my only weapon was Argo & Vel (alphabetic pick). It went fairly well

Am I supposed to be blown away by 47KPM (kills per minute)? I'm assuming you're being honest, and that you also didn't melee much given the stats... A good build/kit should at minimum have a 100KPM... minimum. 

I am not criticizing your skills, only that you think this a good performance. Do you all not play in the Steel Path/with frames that can actually kill via their abilities? My Landslide Atlas (stat stick only) even before the massive buffs in Duviri, blows this KPM out of the water by like 2.5-3x.

Hell, any frame, no abilities, and Argo & Vel (for example) could blow that KPM out of the water.

Edited August 13, 2023 by KitMeHarder

[KitMeHarder]

Here are some videos for you all, and I'll give you some context. 

• All 3 are against level 135 Steel path Elite lancers (literally minute 0 of Kuva survival). Effectively the average (and abundant) mid-tier enemy in Grineer missions.
  • Saryn takes an entire 1 minute 15 seconds to kill them. Say I give you the benefit of the doubt and you're constantly spamming Miasma, that's still well over 30 seconds to kill them.
    • It doesn't matter if she keeps this damage. It takes way too damn long, pales in comparison to the below examples, and has massive downsides where you can easily lose most, if not all of the accumulated damage (even in modes like survival).
  • Garuda, deletes them basically instantly. No passive built up, damage also goes through walls, etc...
  • Mirage, same instant deletion, is dealing less damage in the dark, etc... And she doesn't even rely on status effects like the other 2.
  • Garuda and Mirage are a small fraction that can do this without literally any weapons, and they're not even the best.

Edited August 13, 2023 by KitMeHarder