PSA PSA: Heirloom Collection Platinum Changes & Lessons

[PublikDomain]

27 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

I am not sure if forums are a good sample size. Here, you will mostly find players that have an issue with something. People that bought the packs are definitely not here, because they are happy and playing the game, but if you take something from them, they will arrive and complain.

So let them complain. I don't think you're going to find 80 pages of it here and 50 pages in GD. And if they do complain, DE is more than capable of making it up to people who feel genuinely slighted. If they care so much about not "[making] those people angry" then this should be no problem. Right?

16 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

They already made a tangible profit and they know those people will buy stuff again, so they don't want to make those people angry

That only makes sense if you believe most buyers bought these packs specifically for the exclusivity and will be completely infuriated at that exclusivity changing to the point of never spending money again. It's just unrealistic. Plenty of people have bought the packs just because they like the skins, not for some exclusivity to hang over others heads. Plenty of buyers have said they don't care if the exclusivity goes away Plenty of people would have bought the skins but haven't because of how they're structured, the two of us included! Many, many people are already very angry over these packs.

8 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Simply because adding to a pack without changing the price and removing something from it is different.
I will use the nuggets again. If you advertise you are selling 6 nuggets, but you remove one knowingly, it's a fraud. 
But if you say you will increase the number of nuggets to 7, but the price is still the same, it's not a fraud.

What's being removed? The 6 nuggets are still there. The only difference is that other people get to have some nuggets too. And while the exclusivity of those nuggets might have changed, that's already happened many times in this games history and DE's never had anyone sue them for fraud. It's just a ridiculous proposition.

[Cerikus]

8 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

So let them complain. I don't think you're going to find 80 pages of it here and 50 pages in GD. And if they do complain, DE is more than capable of making it up to people who feel genuinely slighted. If they care so much about not "[making] those people angry" then this should be no problem. Right?

I genuinely don't know. I do however think you are underestimating the value some people see in "time exclusive" and "never coming back". There are people who don't care about the contents of the pack, but only about the fact that they will have it and others wont. 

8 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

That only makes sense if you believe most buyers bought these packs specifically for the exclusivity and will be completely infuriated at that exclusivity changing to the point of never spending money again. It's just unrealistic. Plenty of people have bought the packs just because they like the skins, not for some exclusivity to hang over others heads. Plenty of buyers have said they don't care if the exclusivity goes away Plenty of people would have bought the skins but haven't because of how they're structured, the two of us included! Many, many people are already very angry over these packs.

Of course this makes sense, but if it's such a no brainer, why didn't DE change it? It seems like they would make more money, which is after all the thing they want... There has to be a good reason why they didn't ... 

8 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

What's being removed?

The time exclusivity does have a value unfortunately. If you remove the time exclusivity, the accolade (which is the biggest mistake of this whole thing) has ZERO value. And that can be an issue for some people...

Edited September 8, 2023 by Cerikus

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

1 hour ago, Cerikus said:

Yes we do, but how much did you spend in game? Don't actually tell me, it's a rethorical question. Take that number and compare it to a person with a fat wallet that bought every PA they ever released. That would be probably something like 5000 dollars. How many of "you" DE need and how many of that guy with fat wallet they need? Who do you think DE can afford to make angry? One fat wallet makes DE more than we all ever will... That's just the simple reality of games with microtransactions.

Again. I am on your side. I want DE to make things right, but I am also trying to understand the real reasons, why what we want will not happen.

If your asking how much iv spent on the game this is just my xbiz acount iv been a supporter since the game came out 80 for every PA + i think 30 for every PA accessory pack i have almost every tenogen skins and helmets 

And on pc im a founder 

 

So iv spent a holy crap ton of money over the years on this game to support it 

[PublikDomain]

57 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Of course this makes sense, but if it's such a no brainer, why didn't DE change it? It seems like they would make more money, which is after all the thing they want... There has to be a good reason why they didn't ... 

We don't know, which is why so many of us want an update. Until then all we can do is speculate, and that's not very helpful. There are lots of "good reasons" you can come up with but they all paint DE in a pretty unfavorable light. "Good reasons" like "they would much rather the community just shut up and keep giving them $90".

57 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

There are people who don't care about the contents of the pack, but only about the fact that they will have it and others wont. 

57 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

The time exclusivity does have a value unfortunately. If you remove the time exclusivity, the accolade (which is the biggest mistake of this whole thing) has ZERO value. And that can be an issue for some people...

I think there's a difference in types of value here. Timed exclusivity can be "valuable" in that it gets weighed in when deciding to purchase, but it can also be "valuable" on its own as its own thing. The former is just predatory: people being coerced to to purchase something because of an artificial, arbitrary threat of scarcity. There's no reason this content needs to go away, it's just a threat to get you to buy them. The latter is just narcissism. Not being mean, I just don't have another word for that mindset. Vanity? Ego? And I don't think that mindset is one worth fostering or putting up with. Narcissists holding things over other people's heads "nah nah you can't have this" is just wack. It's always been wack. And all it does is lead to harassment and division. Edit: Using your nuggets example, there's value in the "I gotta try these nuggets before they go away" sense, which is a benign feeling fostered as part of a marketing scheme, and then there's "haha, I get to have nuggets and you don't" which is just being nasty. The former I'm sure is very typical. Luckily for our community, the latter is less so.

And the Accolade is already a huge issue for some people, especially the people like me who aren't whales but are in that ballpark. There's no reason for it to be part of these packs at all.

Edited September 8, 2023 by PublikDomain

[Cerikus]

3 minutes ago, ConDucktorWhirl said:

Except that we aren't asking them to CHANGE the pack. Just to add a new one without the fluff. The original options would still be there. A 4th option wouldn't hurt a damn thing but, instead, increase sales if anything.

Well that can still technically be considered a change of the whole offer, but sure. I agree 4th option would be beneficial, but what I am trying to figure out is: If adding 4th option is such a no-brainer and it would increase sales, why didn't they do it?

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

We don't know, which is why so many of us want an update. Until then all we can do is speculate, and that's not very helpful. There are lots of "good reasons" you can come up with but they all paint DE in a pretty unfavorable light. "Good reasons" like "they would much rather the community just shut up and keep giving them $90".

I think there's a difference in types of value here. Timed exclusivity can be "valuable" in that it gets weighed in when deciding to purchase, but it can also be "valuable" on its own as its own thing. The former is just predatory: people being coerced to to purchase something because of an artificial, arbitrary threat of scarcity. There's no reason this content needs to go away, it's just a threat to get you to buy them. The latter is just narcissism. Not being mean, I just don't have another word for that mindset. Vanity? Ego? And I don't think that mindset is one worth fostering or putting up with. Narcissists holding things over other people's heads "nah nah you can't have this" is just wack. It's always been wack. And all it does is lead to harassment and division. Edit: Using your nuggets example, there's value in the "I gotta try these nuggets before they go away" sense, which is a benign feeling fostered as part of a marketing scheme, and then there's "haha, I get to have nuggets and you don't" which is just being nasty. The former I'm sure is very typical. Luckily for our community, the latter is less so.

And the Accolade is already a huge issue for some people, especially the people like me who aren't whales but are in that ballpark. There's no reason for it to be part of these packs at all.

Yup, I agree with all of this.
I kinda belive that the reason is actually literally what they said, that they just don't want to change something that's out, which is consistent with everything else they do. Take for example how much useless bloat the game has and DE refuse to remove it because there could be one person who uses Diamond skin. I don't think we will get any update on this situation, because if they wanted to say something else, they would have already.

Also, accolade was simply a huge mistake.

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

And the Accolade is already a huge issue for some people, especially the people like me who aren't whales but are in that ballpark. There's no reason for it to be part of these packs at all.

 

31 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Also, accolade was simply a huge mistake.

You both agree on something, so I see some hope in realizing that you both, and all of us here, only want Warframe to be successful because we enjoy the game that has been a huge part of our lives for the past 10 years.  Let's not focus on our differences, but in what we common, because we will accomplish more together, than as individuals, if we want DE to listen and respect our grievances with this Heirloom debacle.   I respect both of you and value your many contributions to the Forums over the years and just wish we could all focus on the issue; which is trying to show DE the error of their ways with some possible solutions to Make Warframe Great Again! (Hat's with the MWGA slogan are for purchase on Etsy!  Just Joking!)  Let's send that anger and frustration OUTWARD and not inward to our fellow Tenno, who are here keeping the discussion alive and our voices heard!

Group Hug! Good Chats!

[Voltage]

4 hours ago, Cerikus said:

Can DE afford to make people who bought the packs angry? I don't think they can, which is unfortunate.

We are having this discussion today solely because DE couldn't afford to anger players who didn't buy into monetization of this capacity for the last 10 years. The 1% they respect with Founders, Hema, and Universal Syndicate Medallions aren't the people who have led up to multiple TennoCons and the opportunity for Steve and older staff to pursue an entirely new game.

DE angering people is purely down to delivery. You're always going to anger the fraction of a percent who feel entitled to the original marketing of the bundle. The same thing happened when DE released The Prime Vault with discounted Prime Access. This post itself creates anger because of the delivery as well. Promptness is also a factor.

It would be healthier long-term for Warframe if they walk back the exclusivity of this bundle. This is coming from someone who purchased it solely because it was marketed as exclusive. The only thing I wanted in this package was everything labeled exclusive, especially the Accolade. The contents specifically (aside from the Accolade) are just more bloat for account collection and customization (which is a massive part of the Warframe experience).

I would still appreciate if this exclusivity was walked back and we never saw something like this again. It's already sad enough that they tried this to begin with given the stigma around the Founders package that surfaces on the Forums every single year since the package came to fruition. They should have known better, but owning and correcting a mistake is paramount if we are to have any trust. Not changing the fundamentals of this bundle sets precedence that the game only respects those buying into these practices.

The Accolade is currently a big L on your profile. I still bought it because it's an exclusive L. It shouldn't be an L to begin with.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Voltage

[Cerikus]

2 hours ago, ConDucktorWhirl said:

They didn't do it yet because, clearly, that would be too easy and make a lot of people happy.

Well, but this makes zero sense, which is why I am discussing it in the first place. Whenever you apply any sort of logic to the current situation you get nonsensical explenations. It's weird and inconceivable.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)sinamanthediva said:

Group Hug! Good Chats!

Yup. Btw, I think we agree on much more with @PublikDomain. I'd say almost everything. The dicussion is only a hypothetical one about why the situation is like this and what are the possible reasons.

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

We are having this discussion today solely because DE couldn't afford to anger players who didn't buy into monetization of this capacity for the last 10 years. The 1% they respect with Founders, Hema, and Universal Syndicate Medallions aren't the people who have led up to multiple TennoCons and the opportunity for Steve and older staff to pursue an entirely new game.

DE angering people is purely down to delivery. You're always going to anger the fraction of a percent who feel entitled to the original marketing of the bundle. The same thing happened when DE released The Prime Vault with discounted Prime Access. This post itself creates anger because of the delivery as well. Promptness is also a factor.

It would be healthier long-term for Warframe if they walk back the exclusivity of this bundle. This is coming from someone who purchased it solely because it was marketed as exclusive. The only thing I wanted in this package was everything labeled exclusive, especially the Accolade. The contents specifically (aside from the Accolade) are just more bloat for account collection and customization (which is a massive part of the Warframe experience).

I would still appreciate if this exclusivity was walked back and we never saw something like this again. It's already sad enough that they tried this to begin with given the stigma around the Founders package that surfaces on the Forums every single year since the package came to fruition. They should have known better, but owning and correcting a mistake is paramount if we are to have any trust. Not changing the fundamentals of this bundle sets precedence that the game only respects those buying into these practices.

All very good points. It all seems so obvious, yet they don't do what is the obvious solution. I simply don't understand them.
I agree that the delivery of news usually leaves a lot to be desired. Whenever there is some drama, they seem to react almost impulsively and the responses are not worded very well. Xoris nerf comes to mind, when the explenation was simply bunch of untrue nonsense, but they ran with it anyways and didn't listen to facts.

Imho the worst thing that gamedevs can do is to be stubborn about things that can be better. I've been complaining for years about locking cool decorations behind a purchase of overpriced warframe bundles full of useless items. I've felt like they crossed a line when they locked a piece of lore behind a bundle I will never buy. Nobody really cared and it didn't get fixed. Univac is the same story. Someone at DE thinks it should be that way and it will never change.

Over the years I've noticed that DE's ability to listen tends to follow a "sine wave". Sometimes they are listening a lot and then they get on the downward slope and listen less, until some huge problem occurs and then they jump onto the upward slope again and do what people want. We were at the bottom in 2019, but sometimes I feel like we are approaching another downward slope. I hope I am wrong.

The reason why I am trying to find some law that binds their ability to do something or some other logical explenation is that I don't want the reason to be stubbornness. Because if it's simply: "We could do it, but we don't wanna." then we have an actual problem.

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

The Accolade is currently a big L on your profile. I still bought it because it's an exclusive L. It shouldn't be an L to begin with.

Well I am just going to wait until the inevitable 20% Christmas discount and then I am going to take the L, lul. If you shave 20% off an L, you get a W, no? Please say yes.
Just kidding, I probably won't buy it anyways. I said I would buy it, but it doesn't seem like I will be able to afford it any time soon.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Cerikus

[Darkbring]

I think I'm gonna take a break from Warframe until the end of September, and if this is indeed all there is to DE's response, then I will extend the break indefinitely. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Darkbring

[CosoMalvadoNG]

Turn the page, DE is not going to change anything. It is more than obvious, it's not like it's so difficult to decide what to do, it's just that they have already decided and have settled the issue.

WE only have two options: accept it or not and that's it. I will simply continue playing as always but I will not spend a dime.

[Cerikus]

20 minutes ago, Darkbring said:

I think i'm gonna take a break from Warframe until the end of September, and if this is indeed all there is to DE's response, then I will extend the break indefinitely. 

Bah.. I don't belive you. You've played the game for far too long and since you are here, you are far too much invested. Also you probably still like to play the game.
The new update comes out and you won't resist. I remember, I think it was March 2020, when I was fed up with the low quality of the updates and the constant issues and everything and I said bye, I hate this game and the community and everything and I am never coming back. I was back fast enough to fully farm Scarlet spear. I wasn't proud of myself, but it is what it is. 

14 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

Turn the page, DE is not going to change anything. It is more than obvious, it's not like it's so difficult to decide what to do, it's just that they have already decided and have settled the issue.

WE only have two options: accept it or not and that's it. I will simply continue playing as always but I will not spend a dime.

True, but we could also, hear me out, turn this thread into "Last post wins 2: Electric Boogaloo" and debate the Heirloom packs until the Judgement day and trumpets sound.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Cerikus

[Stormhawkaro]

hace 7 horas, (XBOX)Shodian dijo:

And Warframe is free, soooooo...

So? Warframe may be a free game, but DE still relies on monetizing it through microtransactions to keep it going; stuff like premium currencies (Regal Aya, Platinum), supporter packs, prime access (with Prime Vault), tennogen (at least on PC) and now the Heirloom Collection are proof of it.

Like it or not a "free" game with micro (and not so micro) transactions can turn out to be a lot more expensive over time than a one-time purchase.

Hell, No Man's Sky is 60 USD (at normal price); that's 10 USD cheaper than the Celestial pack which is the cheapest one that includes the skins, so not even sure what's your point.

[bedainey]

1 hour ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

Turn the page, DE is not going to change anything.

1 hour ago, Cerikus said:

True, but we could also, hear me out, turn this thread into "Last post wins 2: Electric Boogaloo" and debate the Heirloom packs until the Judgement day and trumpets sound.

Not one of you will stop anyone from voicing out opinions and wanting change. Just like no one's stopping you from defending DE. It's a forum.

[TheLazyTherian]

9 days and nothing new glad to see DE thinks this non solution was a good response, I am never buying anything from your company ever again.

[Cerikus]

7 minutes ago, bedainey said:

Not one of you will stop anyone from voicing out opinions and wanting change. Just like no one's stopping you from defending DE. It's a forum.

If you spend at least a few seconds reading anything I've posted you may find out that that you've just implied that I am trying to stop myself from me voicing my opinons that the packs are problematic. And that's funny. Responding to single post taken out of context can sometimes yield funny situations.

I can promise you that I am trully not trying, nor will I attempt in the future to stop myself from saying what I want to say, which is that the the packs are problematic.

[Darkbring]

1 hour ago, Cerikus said:

Bah.. I don't belive you. You've played the game for far too long and since you are here, you are far too much invested. Also you probably still like to play the game.
The new update comes out and you won't resist. I remember, I think it was March 2020, when I was fed up with the low quality of the updates and the constant issues and everything and I said bye, I hate this game and the community and everything and I am never coming back. I was back fast enough to fully farm Scarlet spear. I wasn't proud of myself, but it is what it is. 

 

I went on several years long breaks before, I can do it again. 

[Cerikus]

Just now, Darkbring said:

I went on several years long breaks before, I can do it again. 

Damn. I kinda envy you tbh. I like Warframe too much to take such a long break. It's basically a perfect concoction of gameplay and systems for me personally.
I sometimes take breaks that can be even several weeks long because of a lack of time to play, but I can't imagine leaving the game for that long. 

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 4 horas, bedainey dijo:

Not one of you will stop anyone from voicing out opinions and wanting change. Just like no one's stopping you from defending DE. It's a forum.

I do not know what you're talking about. I'm just a realist, whether you accept it or not, the post has no relevance to them making any change of the current packages.

If by chance they decided to reduce the price almost at the end of the package's deadline it wouldn't be a surprise since they usually do it with most of the FOMO and I hope that if it happens don't think it's because you complained in a post that obviously they have already proposed ''their solution'' and they have given ''their reasons'' for not doing what we want, friend.

But in the end I know that talking to angry people is useless, after all, I got quite angry  with the packages too, but it's not worth crying over spilled milk and more if it has already been rotten for 2 weeks.

Have a good day.

Edited September 9, 2023 by CosoMalvadoNG

[Eyeblight]

I dont think ive used these forums more than once or twice in all the years ive played, Ive dumped plenty into plat/tennogen so i am far and away from f2p but i see nothing but trouble that they refuse to provide a real solution to despite several methods mentioned in this thread alone they could use. I joined not long after the founders pack was removed from the store and yes i was one of the people upset that i couldnt get what was in it, i got over it in time because i understood it was a necessary evil to keep the game alive at the time.

This however is nothing close to the circumstances that made the founders pack grudgingly acceptable and my wife has already quit the game for good and passed her remaining plat to me, knowing that im on the verge of being done for good myself seeing this happen and nothing being done about it. I took a several year long break myself because i was down to only a few weps and the eidolon arcanes to finish my collection, i left from about a week or two after Hildryn dropped til about 2 months ago and came back to a lot of new systems but also encountered regal aya for the first time as well and was not even remotely interested in such a niche currency that could only buy things i already had or would never want.

I would love a frost skin since i did play him regularly and wouldn't mind this nova cosplay mag skin but i refuse to waste my money on a pack where im forced into dead currency just to get what i actually want. As for the Accolade id rather just never have it at this point because its nothing more than a joke and an insult to anyone who played and payed for as long as i have to see only those willing to be wallet warriors this one specific time given any acknowledgement for the time and money spent rather than those of us who helped keep this game afloat for the better part of a decade.

While i did take a break to let new things be added to the game i never claimed i quit back then, once i do its done... this wouldnt be the first game or company ive walked away from and never looked back. This isnt an ultimatum for the devs its a promise from me that if it isnt dealt with properly ill hand off whats in my account and wont touch anything related to DE again.

[Myscho]

Aaaaaaand nothing else changed, as predicted

Edited September 9, 2023 by Myscho

[Circle_of_Psi]

12 hours ago, ConDucktorWhirl said:

People that bought the pack accepted the price that was given. They don't have a right to cry if we get a cheaper pack because we were smart enough to not accept the bullS#&$ given to us. It'd be perfectly fair to get a cheaper bundle without the fluff

Point Taken

[(XBOX)toughdragon17]

2 hours ago, Myscho said:

Aaaaaaand nothing else changed, as predicted

Im seeing if they even mention anything on the dev stream on the 29th if they don't iv heard a lot of people not just on this forum but un game as well are going to stop playing the game until the majors update wispers in the walls and 1999

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 32 minutos, (XBOX)toughdragon17 dijo:

Im seeing if they even mention anything on the dev stream on the 29th if they don't iv heard a lot of people not just on this forum but un game as well are going to stop playing the game until the majors update wispers in the walls and 1999

That not really true, of course people are going to leave as they always do. So that threats are useless friend, people come and go to the game all the time. 

The time for complaints has passed and they have already given their response. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against anyone here, i'm just handing out facts.

Have a good time

Edited September 9, 2023 by CosoMalvadoNG
Add text

[Circle_of_Psi]

3 hours ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

That not really true, of course people are going to leave as they always do. So that threats are useless friend, people come and go to the game all the time. 

Have to agree I'm afraid. 

However, it's all down to the actual players, People can "threaten" all they want about leaving but actually having the Cojones to do it is another story. But even if a few handful of players (100/500 or even 1,000) left, they'll just be replaced by people willing to cough up money.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 1 hora, Circle_of_Psi dijo:

Have to agree I'm afraid. 

However, it's all down to the actual players, People can "threaten" all they want about leaving but actually having the Cojones to do it is another story. But even if a few handful of players (100/500 or even 1,000) left, they'll just be replaced by people willing to cough up money.

If you look for any global Warframe counter you will notice that the number of players has not changed much in the last months.  Also, if 1000 players leave as you say in your example, it won't even be noticed, the total daily calculation of Warframe players is around 300k-550k (Steam, Epic, The client (solo), consoles, some Asian countries, ETC... Yes, stop taking Steam numbers as unique and the true... ). 

Edited September 9, 2023 by CosoMalvadoNG
misspellings, Add text