Performing a series of specific Parkour Movements > Tapping a Button. Why Nerfing Exodia Contagion is a MISTAKE

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Id rather not be a boot licker and actually point out flaws unlike some people here......

Not everything is black and white though. You dont need to gloom all the time and you dont have to be happy about everything all the time either.

16 hours ago, -Krism- said:

Wait what? Was I lied to this whole time?

 

Also, isn't Squirrel Girl the one that could defeat absolutely anyone because she's a joke character?

Yep you've been lied to all this time. And yeah SG is that one.

14 hours ago, DrBorris said:

1. Slide attacks in the air... one of the few movement mechanics that has been part of the game since closed beta... is a bug? The "it's been in the game for years therefore not a bug" argument is pretty weak in general, but this is as old as Warframe, I think it gets a bit more validity.

It isnt positive that regular slide attacks are unintended, it could be that they refer to specifically heavy slide attacks in the air. Since as far as I recall, only heavy slide allows for heavy attacking while in the air, everything else makes you perform a heavy slam. While with regular attacks it could be intended and simply just another air attack (which you can do freely simply based on camera angle).

14 hours ago, DrBorris said:

2. Unironically saying "technically correct, the best kind of correct" is an interesting take. You would think in the explanation as to why you are changing a thing that you would, ya know, explain it. There were more words spent not explaining the "series of specific parkour movements" than it would have taken to just say "heavy slide attack in the air." And all of those other "specific movements" are the requirements needed to make Contagion work in the first place. Normally when someone takes the long, non-specific way around a topic it is because they are either trying to hide something or are ignorant. Sure, they were technically correct, but it is also a red flag.

Why though? If heavy attacks arent intended for instance, why should they specify it and make the use of a potential bug more widespread on their own? And what does it matter if the other movement parts are in the intended mechanic when they say "series of specific parkour movements" are needed to trigger the bug? The intended interaction doesnt trigger the bug, so a series of specific parkour movements is correct, since that is what is needed together with most of the intended interactions to trigger the bug. You specifically need to equip the melee, slide and heavy attack, that is a series of three specific movements outside the normal interaction, which also replaces once of the regular triggers.

14 hours ago, DrBorris said:

And I don't know what that last part is even about.

It is about how entitled the WF community is.

15 hours ago, quxier said:

First why it's so hard to see that some people are upset? You like certain things (whatever it is) and some people take it from you. Would you be happy? I don't think so. I'm not sure about upset or angry but you wouldn't go to the people and thanks them. I was little bit angry because they "fixed" amalgam mod (that one with shorten rolls) without even giving us back anything.

Secondly fix can be nerf too. They fixed (according to them) by nerfing some interaction/buff.

Thirdly, Arcane says "air attacks" which means just "melee attack in the air". How do I know that I cannot do heavy (not slam)? Maybe it requires some combinations that player is not aware and DE hasn't said it officially anywhere (e.g. codex)?

Well yes I would since it is a bug fix. Just as in all other games I've played I've been thankful for actual bug fixes, which this is.

Nope it cant. A nerf is a directly targetted change in order to shift something working as intended into something weaker while working as intended. Catchmoon = nerf, Bramma = nerf, ammo economy changes = nerf and so on.

Not really since air attacks are actually their own thing.

[quxier]

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

On 2023-09-15 at 9:49 PM, quxier said:

First why it's so hard to see that some people are upset? You like certain things (whatever it is) and some people take it from you. Would you be happy? I don't think so. I'm not sure about upset or angry but you wouldn't go to the people and thanks them. I was little bit angry because they "fixed" amalgam mod (that one with shorten rolls) without even giving us back anything.

Well yes I would since it is a bug fix. Just as in all other games I've played I've been thankful for actual bug fixes, which this is.

So just because it's called "bug fix" you would be happy? Really? So hypothetical "fun" (to you) game with 1 feature - walking and 99 other bugs would be fine without those 99 bugs? I guess there are some people that would say "yes" (no sarcastically) but they would be in minority.

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

On 2023-09-15 at 9:49 PM, quxier said:

Secondly fix can be nerf too. They fixed (according to them) by nerfing some interaction/buff.

Nope it cant. A nerf is a directly targetted change in order to shift something working as intended into something weaker while working as intended. Catchmoon = nerf, Bramma = nerf, ammo economy changes = nerf and so on.

Where do you get explenation of term containing "while working as intended" part? I'm not "hardcore" gamer so I may lack some knowledge. My understanding is that nerf just makes something weaker. It doesn't matter if it's intended or not (can be both). I've looked in the internet and I had similar definitions:

Quote

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/nerf
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nerf
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/nerf
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nerf

 

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

On 2023-09-15 at 9:49 PM, quxier said:

Thirdly, Arcane says "air attacks" which means just "melee attack in the air". How do I know that I cannot do heavy (not slam)? Maybe it requires some combinations that player is not aware and DE hasn't said it officially anywhere (e.g. codex)?

Not really since air attacks are actually their own thing.

Where are we getting info that "air attacks" are "their own thing"?

[Skoomaseller]

if only you guys put in this much energy at flinging S#&$ at each other into screaming at DE for leaving things unfixed or asking for clarity on things that may or may not be intended features

[TheSteelMushroom]

3 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

if only you guys put in this much energy at flinging S#&$ at each other into screaming at DE for leaving things unfixed or asking for clarity on things that may or may not be intended features

Tbh at this point I doubt it'll be any better to provide feedback to DE because they don't address most criticism. So the best we can do is work with what we got.

Edited September 17, 2023 by TheSteelMushroom

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, quxier said:

So just because it's called "bug fix" you would be happy? Really? So hypothetical "fun" (to you) game with 1 feature - walking and 99 other bugs would be fine without those 99 bugs? I guess there are some people that would say "yes" (no sarcastically) but they would be in minority.

Not really sure how you arrived to that idea.

13 hours ago, quxier said:

Where do you get explenation of term containing "while working as intended" part? I'm not "hardcore" gamer so I may lack some knowledge. My understanding is that nerf just makes something weaker. It doesn't matter if it's intended or not (can be both). I've looked in the internet and I had similar definitions:

How odd and the first search I get is. 

Quote

NERF means "Weaken a Game Feature." A NERF is a change made to a game that is intended to weaken a particular item, tactic, ability or character. NERFs are usually applied by game developers for balancing purposes. NERF is an antonym of BUFF (Beneficial Effect On A Target).

Bolding and underline done by me. Recall the old "it's not a bug, it's a feature" thing? In short it is negative changes done to features i.e intended parts of a game. Bugs, as they are not intended, are not features working as intended, so cannot be nerfed, only fixed.

13 hours ago, quxier said:

Where are we getting info that "air attacks" are "their own thing"?

Uhm in the combo window in-game.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

15 hours ago, quxier said:

So just because it's called "bug fix" you would be happy? Really? So hypothetical "fun" (to you) game with 1 feature - walking and 99 other bugs would be fine without those 99 bugs? I guess there are some people that would say "yes" (no sarcastically) but they would be in minority.

Not really sure how you arrived to that idea.

Because you said you would be thankful if they take something from you but it's a "bug fix". If you don't care about how good game is (for you) just because they call it "bug fix" THEN fixing whole game (changing most of its content) would be fine for you too (with that logic).

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

15 hours ago, quxier said:

Where do you get explenation of term containing "while working as intended" part? I'm not "hardcore" gamer so I may lack some knowledge. My understanding is that nerf just makes something weaker. It doesn't matter if it's intended or not (can be both). I've looked in the internet and I had similar definitions:

How odd and the first search I get is. 

Quote

NERF means "Weaken a Game Feature." A NERF is a change made to a game that is intended to weaken a particular item, tactic, ability or character. NERFs are usually applied by game developers for balancing purposes. NERF is an antonym of BUFF (Beneficial Effect On A Target).

Bolding and underline done by me. Recall the old "it's not a bug, it's a feature" thing? In short it is negative changes done to features i.e intended parts of a game. Bugs, as they are not intended, are not features working as intended, so cannot be nerfed, only fixed.

"Weaken a game feature" doesn't tell you that changed part is intended or not. It says what part it will change. For example game has jump. They nerf jump length to 50%. It just says it changes "jump length" and nothing how jump length is (not) intended to function.

Read your whole quote:

Quote

A NERF is a change made to a game that is intended to weaken a particular item, tactic, ability or character.

This just says that something will be worse(aka weaken) (item, tactic etc).

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

NERFs are usually applied by game developers for balancing purposes.

Again, nothing what's is intended or not intended. Just about balancing part.

Let me quote another sites (some might have NSFW content like swearing):

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/nerf

Quote

nerf in British English (in online gaming)

(nɜːf ) slang

verb

1. (transitive)

to reduce the effectiveness of (a character, weapon, skill, etc) in order to achieve a greater competitive balance

noun

2. 

the act of doing this

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/nerf

Quote

verb (used with object)

2. (lowercase)Slang. (in a video game) to reconfigure (an existing character or weapon), making it less powerful: The game development team nerfed several guns in the recent update.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nerf

Quote

nerf

Usually in first person shooters and RPGs, when game developers think a weapon is far too powerful, and threatens the stability of the game, and weakens the aspects of that power drmatically to rebalance it.

When diablo 2 came out, everyone played either a necromancer or a barbarian. Now necromancers is nerfed to a point where its intolerably difficult to duel against other players without people just dodging your summoned minions and shove a axe into your face.

In all those quotes (I've picked more SFW & easier to read) there is no word whenever something is intended or not.

If you have some quote that directly says about "intended and not intended features" distinction between a bug (fix) and a nerf then quote here. Otherwise it's just you understand it differently than others. Nothing bad with that but we have use common terms. With high probability people that "were upset about nerf" thought that bug fix can be nerf.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

15 hours ago, quxier said:

Where are we getting info that "air attacks" are "their own thing"?

Uhm in the combo window in-game.

The combo/stance in game just show some combos. It doesn't show some combos if they are repeated. For example combo can have standing, moving and block+moving combo in a stance window. It doesn't mean that you cannot use block combo. It just don't show it. There are lot of stuff that it doesn't show.

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Because you said you would be thankful if they take something from you but it's a "bug fix". If you don't care about how good game is (for you) just because they call it "bug fix" THEN fixing whole game (changing most of its content) would be fine for you too (with that logic).

So you are telling me what I mean with what I said? Which isnt at all what I ment. Where did you get the idea from that I dont care how good the game is? You also go into conspiracy whacky extremes here by making up unreleated things to the fix we've seen. This has never been an intended interaction, it was a clear bug, it got fixed, it wasnt a nerf.

2 hours ago, quxier said:

"Weaken a game feature" doesn't tell you that changed part is intended or not. It says what part it will change. For example game has jump. They nerf jump length to 50%. It just says it changes "jump length" and nothing how jump length is (not) intended to function.

Well uhm yes it does. Feature is the key word, a feature is an intended thing. Hence why I asked you if you recall the "it's not a bug, it's a feature" thing. Jump length as a feature comes with a set distance, if that distance is shortened they'll change a feature that already works as intended.

2 hours ago, quxier said:

In all those quotes (I've picked more SFW & easier to read) there is no word whenever something is intended or not.

If you have some quote that directly says about "intended and not intended features" distinction between a bug (fix) and a nerf then quote here. Otherwise it's just you understand it differently than others. Nothing bad with that but we have use common terms. With high probability people that "were upset about nerf" thought that bug fix can be nerf.

Of course they all refer to what is intended, since none of them, not a single one utters the word bug or phrase bug fix even once. And "intended feature" is a redundancy, since if something is a feature it is already intended. A bug isnt a feature, unless it transitions into one instead of getting fixed, like specific palette color usage on operator skins (fixed and made a feature), dragonkey-shieldgate becoming intended behavior etc.

2 hours ago, quxier said:

The combo/stance in game just show some combos. It doesn't show some combos if they are repeated. For example combo can have standing, moving and block+moving combo in a stance window. It doesn't mean that you cannot use block combo. It just don't show it. There are lot of stuff that it doesn't show.

What exactly are you trying to say? All combos and their interactions are shown in the game for each stance, showing their exact input needed to achieve the combo. None of it is hidden. For instance some weapon completely miss full combo lines. For instance Shimmering Blight doesnt have a specific forward combo, and Pointed Wind doesnt have specific block+forward combo. Shimmering Blight has the same combo for neutral and foward, Pointed Wind has the same combo for forward and block+forward.

As to aerial attack, Crushing Ruin for instance has an aerial attack named Mountain's Chisel, it deals 200% damage on attack 1, 2 and 3 and inflicts impact. Shimmering Blight  is called Planting Widow and does spin 300%, spin 300% and 300%+knockdown. Pointed Wind is called Scorpion Fall and does 200% impact, 100% slash. Those are the air attacks refered to by Contagion.

Edited September 17, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[quxier]

19 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

3 hours ago, quxier said:

Because you said you would be thankful if they take something from you but it's a "bug fix". If you don't care about how good game is (for you) just because they call it "bug fix" THEN fixing whole game (changing most of its content) would be fine for you too (with that logic).

So you are telling me what I mean with what I said? Which isnt at all what I ment.

Wait what do you "mean"? I'm using what you have written YET it isn't what you mean? I'm very confused what you mean.

22 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Where did you get the idea from that I dont care how good the game is?

Maybe it's not affecting your game (style) but you are thankful that they fix (bug fix) game by taking (removing) something that players use. You haven't said it was about balance, being hard to use or something. It's good because it's merely bug fix. That doesn't sounds like "lot of care".

29 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

3 hours ago, quxier said:

"Weaken a game feature" doesn't tell you that changed part is intended or not. It says what part it will change. For example game has jump. They nerf jump length to 50%. It just says it changes "jump length" and nothing how jump length is (not) intended to function.

Well uhm yes it does. Feature is the key word, a feature is an intended thing.

No:

Quote

a typical quality or an important part of something:

Cambridge

Quote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_(software_design)

The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) defines the term in IEEE 829 (a now-defunct standard for software test documentation) as a "distinguishing characteristic of a software item (e.g., performance, portability, or functionality)".^[2]

 

36 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

3 hours ago, quxier said:

In all those quotes (I've picked more SFW & easier to read) there is no word whenever something is intended or not.

If you have some quote that directly says about "intended and not intended features" distinction between a bug (fix) and a nerf then quote here. Otherwise it's just you understand it differently than others. Nothing bad with that but we have use common terms. With high probability people that "were upset about nerf" thought that bug fix can be nerf.

Of course they all refer to what is intended, since none of them, not a single one utters the word bug or phrase bug fix even once. And "intended feature" is a redundancy, since if something is a feature it is already intended. A bug isnt a feature, unless it transitions into one instead of getting fixed, like specific palette color usage on operator skins (fixed and made a feature), dragonkey-shieldgate becoming intended behavior etc.

It's assumption that "intended feature" is redundancy. Maybe different language users read it differently but for me there is no "intended" anywhere.

38 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

3 hours ago, quxier said:

The combo/stance in game just show some combos. It doesn't show some combos if they are repeated. For example combo can have standing, moving and block+moving combo in a stance window. It doesn't mean that you cannot use block combo. It just don't show it. There are lot of stuff that it doesn't show.

What exactly are you trying to say? All combos and their interactions are shown in the game for each stance, showing their exact input needed to achieve the combo. None of it is hidden. For instance some weapon completely miss full combo lines. For instance Shimmering Blight doesnt have a specific forward combo, and Pointed Wind doesnt have specific block+forward combo. Shimmering Blight has the same combo for neutral and foward, Pointed Wind has the same combo for forward and block+forward.

Nothing is hidden? Well, next line(s) you have noted "miss full combo lines". That's hidden for me. There is no duration or special effect explanation (e.g. Ghoulsaw ride mechanic).

[Amolistic.]

On 2023-09-12 at 7:56 PM, Roble_Viejo said:

Reasons why Heavy Attacks Mid-Air are OBJECTIVELY GOOD FOR THE GAME:
A. You need to fully equip your Melee, so you cant use other Weapons when doing so
B. You need to learn how to perform these Maneuvers in the right order, otherwise it wont work
C. It opens the possibility for a whole different Build instead of the staple raw DMG build
D. Exodia Contagion is a RARE Arcane that is only available every other year and requires a lot of grinding to get

In resume, If DE "fixes" Mid-Air Heavy Attacks they would be:
A. Removing a form of Tech from the Game
B. Punishing Players who grinded for Exodia Contagion
C. Removing a whole Build from the Player's Option
D. Pushing Players to use other AoE methods which do more dmg and are easier to use

You call this skill? No way bro.

Lets be real though, exodia alone with just press of a button with eclipse is enough to have enemies go byebye in SP due to double dipping, plus it is not like you cannot build 12x combo then use the exodia for the enhanced crits and more dmg.

 

OBJECTIVELY GOOD FOR GAME????? Yeah, this is some serious copium, this is a form of serious exploit/unintended mechanics, you called it objectively good????

BUILD VARIETY???? NAH BRO, exodia only has one great build path and that is all of it, don't even think of others unless you go roar + wrathful advance which do not have the double dip mechanics, which means the dmg is not going to be that "overpowered", exodia no eclipse no good, end of discussion, not even rhino can make it work as good as eclipse itself with the addition of wrathful advance + roar, let alone you go the subsumed roar route.

Yeah, the "arcane is hard to grind" point again, it does not contribute to the point of "it is an exploit".

 

exodia is massively easier to use, massively higher dmg due to eclipse, by pressing a button, even my rivenless, roar only exodia is enough to kill steel path like nothing by doing the 12x combo exodia light attacks, let alone the better combination aka eclipse, which means the total dmg is going to be just higher vs AoE solutions.

You know how easy it is to do exodia 12x heavy with 90% heavy efficiency and some slam attacks to gain combo? with this kind of scaling, it is no surprise DE nerfed it, like I basically know that they are going to nerf this by the time i tried it.

If something is this overpowered, expect the nerf.

 

On 2023-09-12 at 11:24 PM, Roble_Viejo said:

You are missing the point completely

Nerfing Exodia Contagion is pushing
Players to use even stronger forms of AoE
 

yeah bro, no shet sherlock, exodia is still going to be exodia, not like you give a damn about the heavy, just do the 12x combo exodia light attack, not like it is difficult.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Amolistic.

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, quxier said:

Wait what do you "mean"? I'm using what you have written YET it isn't what you mean? I'm very confused what you mean.

No you dont, you read into what I said and make up what you think I ment or how I feel regarding something to push your own views on it. Bugs shouldnt be part of a game, beneficial or not, that is how I feel. Less bugs makes for a better game no matter which type of bug it is that gets removed, especially when it comes to things that affect gameplay and power.

20 hours ago, quxier said:

Maybe it's not affecting your game (style) but you are thankful that they fix (bug fix) game by taking (removing) something that players use. You haven't said it was about balance, being hard to use or something. It's good because it's merely bug fix. That doesn't sounds like "lot of care".

Again you claim things that were never said. When did you see me saying anything about how something affects me or my style? I see the removal of bugs as something positive no matter if they affect me or not, since they are in the end bugs. I'm also OK if the solution ends up being the developers saying "we are making this bug a feature" instead of removing it if they feel it is appropriate. Also, why do you use "marks" around "lot of care"? When was that ever something said? Again you push words in the mouth of others.

20 hours ago, quxier said:

No:

Yes. What you bring up doesnt change that.

20 hours ago, quxier said:

It's assumption that "intended feature" is redundancy. Maybe different language users read it differently but for me there is no "intended" anywhere.

Heh no it isnt. A feature is a part of something that was added by intent, so all features are intended in something like a game, or if a bug turns feature, it is then intended to be part of the game (a feature of the game) and no longer a bug. A bug is never intended, as opposed to a feature that is always intended.

20 hours ago, quxier said:

Nothing is hidden? Well, next line(s) you have noted "miss full combo lines". That's hidden for me. There is no duration or special effect explanation (e.g. Ghoulsaw ride mechanic).

Seriously what the #*!% are you talking about? A fully missing combo line is not hidden, because it does not exsists at all. Ghoulsaw ride is also there on the weapon, explained exactly how it should be performed since it is just another combo with a different animation. No single combo in the game has the duration/animation time explained in the game, so why should Rip N' Ride when it is just a combo among all other combos?

Or do you need some full explaination of the whole melee animation? Because you clearly cant just look at the input provided inside the game and then test it out to see what it actually looks like as we do with every other bloody combo move in the game?

[KIREEK]

It doesn't matter if it is a direct nerf, a change or a fix, everything is dependant on usage. If a youtuber advertises a wicked combo, that is the 1st sign that a change is about to happen. If players copy the set up then the usage increases beyond what DE finds acceptable and will implement changes, the only thing that changes is the wording in the update. They want you to experiment and try other things, sure a player can be op and cheap, but you can't share the setup as it will be nerfed/changed.

Mistake or not it has been like this since the start.

If you see a youtuber doing something, then do something else.

[Zimzala]

On 2023-09-15 at 5:59 PM, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

I didn't name anyone but hey if you want to jump to conclusions go right ahead. You seem pretty good at doing that.

Where did I say anything resembling you naming anyone? That's all in your head.

What I did do was call you out on your silly BS to label anyone that does not agree with your outlook a 'bootlicker', because that it is literally grade-school-playground level discourse, on a game that is supposedly for adults.

The only conclusion I made was to take your negative and tiny minded outlook and apply the tag of Eeyore, as I think it is an appropriate conclusion.

So, where you seem pretty good at grousing, I seem pretty good at recognizing your childish insults.

Good Luck and Happy Gaming.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

6 hours ago, Zimzala said:

Where did I say anything resembling you naming anyone? That's all in your head.

What I did do was call you out on your silly BS to label anyone that does not agree with your outlook a 'bootlicker', because that it is literally grade-school-playground level discourse, on a game that is supposedly for adults.

The only conclusion I made was to take your negative and tiny minded outlook and apply the tag of Eeyore, as I think it is an appropriate conclusion.

So, where you seem pretty good at grousing, I seem pretty good at recognizing your childish insults.

Good Luck and Happy Gaming.

That was a very long write up. I'm genuinely touched. Spend your effort on something else.

[Zimzala]

18 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

That was a very long write up. I'm genuinely touched. Spend your effort on something else.

This level of discourse is virtually effortless and if you consider that post 'very long', I weep even more for the future of our species.

Tootles. 

[VibingCat]

On 2023-09-17 at 6:24 PM, Amolistic. said:

exodia no eclipse no good

BS, try Banshee and Octavia.