Adaptative Overguard, a healthy replacement to Damage Attenuation

[lukinu_u]

So as you may know, damage attenuation have existed in Warframe for quite some time, starting with Condrix and later extended to some other aspect of the game (mostly Lich/Sisters and Archons).
Before talking about the goals, problems and the solutions, I'll rapidely explain what it is in case you don't know :
What is commonly referred as "damage attenuation" is a damage resistance that scale based on the DPS received by an enemy to reduce the gap between bad and good loadouts and make the fighting experience more consistent regardless of your level.

THE PROBLEMS
In theory, the goal is to make the fight much more enjoyable without rebalancing the whole game (which would definitely a much better long term solution), but in practice the following problems occure :

• There is absolutely no mention of this system in the game, making it hard to understand if you don't do deep research online. This is completely opposed to the rest of the game where you can simply check the codex and understand stuff very easily (even if a few numbers on the wiki still help).
   
• Joining the point above, the system is flawed in a way that make certain stats benefitial while completely ignoring some other. This could be a good point if it made sense, but the way it work is unintuitive and does not encourage interesting creative builds. It simply asks you to have as much multishot and critical stats as possible, aka using Kuva Hek (there are alternative, but not much due to the few stats can contribute in a damage increase).
   
• On top of being unintuitive and not very interesting to mod around, the lack of helpful stats means most of your arsenal is simply pointless in these fight. Again, this could be interesting but all of these are things all players already use and most likely have maxed already so it doesn't shift the use of warframes/weapons to something less commonly used to make them invest in something different, it just force the already existing meta by killing any alternative.
   
• Due to how the damage reduction is calculated based on previous hits rather than the current one, other players hits (or previous from you) can negatively affect your next hit. This mean you can actually ruin the fight by inflicting more damage, it make no sense and is not interesting at all. The only way shooting at enemies should negatively impact you is some deflected damage back at you, not making your allies deal less damages.

In short, the current system is extremly unintuitive with no ingame ways to understand it, forces a very boring meta that isn't much different from the make game, and can heavily punish someone for their allies mistakes, which is especially bad as these mistakes aren't easy to understand for the average player.
 

THE SOLUTION
Before talking about the solution, I will just clarify the aspects it is intented to solve.
The goal is a systemthat make a lasting fight for experienced players without making it impossible with weaker loadouts (like the original system), all via a visually intuitive decaying defense that you can destroy at varying rates depending on your loadout to finish faster. The "finish faster is very important to me because this the only thing that will incentive player to still play this kind of gameplay, rather than just afk-ing because their contribution has no effect on the fight (I'm looking at you Exploiter Orb).

All of that would be brought by the Adaptive Overguard, a new health type that have the following properties :

• Adaptative Overguard decay at a fixed rate depending on the target. It determine the maximum intended duration of the fight (ignoring normal health under it, that should exist but be negligible). Due to the fixed decay rate, it means there is a maximum duration to this fight, any damage done reduce said maximum.
  The fixed decay mean you can deplete it with 0 damage by just waiting, but if you have trouble dealing damage you most likely have trouble surviving as well, so it's still a tough fight. As for afk-ing, if you are able to casually survive, yes you can afk but you're wasting time by not dealing damage.
   
• Adaptative Overguard is split into Gates. Each gate take 10x less damage than the previous and certain debuffs applies to the way each of them receive (indicated on the screen). The number of gate depend on the target, and the debuffs stacks (for example if the first gate had "no critical hit" and the second have "no ability damage", both would applies on the second Gate and so on).
  The possibles debuffs that will occure are visible before starting the mission (on mission screen for Archons, on the Lich/Sister page, etc) and can include :
  - No critical multiplier
  - One projectile per weapon (to discourage shotguns use)
  - Damage is lowered to 1% and increase by 0.25% every shot to 100% (to discourage snipers/encourage fast fire rate)
  - No ability damage
  - No physical/elemental damage (mutually exclusive)
  - Status effects only or no status effects (mutually exclusive)
  - Take damage only if corresponding status on (for example, viral damage would only apply while a viral status is on the target)
  - Headshot only
   

CONCRETE EXAMPLE
It's possibly poorly explained, so to make sure it clear enough for everyone, I'll give one concrete example on how it could work for one specific enemy, let's say Archon Boreal, and show how thing evlove through the whole fight :
 

• Archon Boreal's Adaptative Overguard decays at 0.07% per second and have 5 Gates, making the fight last 25min if untouched (hypothetical numbers that needs tuning).
   
• Every week, the possible Adaptative Overguard debuffs are randomised. This week, it turned out to be : 
  - No critical multipler
  - No ability damage
  - Headshot only
  - Status effect only
  - One projectile per shot
  From there, you can start adapating your loadout to the debuffs, the ideal outcome here is a very accurate single projectile weapon that have high status chance and don't rely on critical hits, which is modded for any DoT status effect. Again, this is randomised per week (or Lich/Sister), so the ideal loadout does vary for every fight.
   
• Once you start the mission and encouter Archon Boreal, his Adapative Overguard select one random debuff from the mission list and turns out to be "No ability damage".
  From there, the fight would last 25min but you can damage the Overguard (without ability due to the restriction) until you break the 1st Gate.
  Once the Gate is depleted either by time or by your damage (or a mix of both), the fight will last a maximum of 20min.
   
• From there, a second debuff is selected and you can start damage the second Gate, that does take 10x less damageand  add a second debuff to the first one, which happens to be "Headshot only". So the second Gate can only be damaged by non-ability headshots and take 10% of your damage.
  Once the Gate is depleted either by time or by your damage (or a mix of both), the fight will last a maximum of 15min.
   
• From there, a 3rd debuff is selected and you can start damage the second Gate, that does take 10x less damage and add a 3rd debuff to the first one, which happens to be "Status effect only". So the 3rd Gate can only be damaged by status effects from non-ability headshots and take 1% of your damage.
  Once the Gate is depleted either by time or by your damage (or a mix of both), the fight will last a maximum of 10min.
   
• From there, a 4th debuff is selected and you can start damage the second Gate, that does take 10x less damage and add a 4th debuff to the first one, which happens to be "No critical multiplier". So the 4th Gate can only be damaged by status effects from non-ability headshots without critical damage and take 0.1% of your damage.
  Once the Gate is depleted either by time or by your damage (or a mix of both), the fight will last a maximum of 5min.
   
• From there, a 5th debuff is selected and you can start damage the second Gate, that does take 10x less damage and add a 5th debuff to the first one, which is the last one, "One projectile per shot". So the 5th Gate can only be damaged by status effects from non-ability headshots without critical damage wiht only one pellet per shot affecting the target, and take 0.01% of your damage.
  Once the Gate is depleted either by time or by your damage (or a mix of both), the fight will end.

This is a long detailled breakdown of every step but it short, the target have set "fight duration" that is decreased by dealing damage, but the amount and complexity (require unique build per target occurence) increases exponetially, making the engagement interesting at any level, because regardless of your progress in the game, there is always a way you can optimise the fight with what you have and be rewarded for this.
It also fix the previously mentionned ally damages negatively affecting your next hit, simply because there is no more adaptative reduction.

CONCLUSION
Instead of using an adaptative damage reduction to erase the power creep gap, this new system provides a long fight that encourage players to push their limit to reduce said fight duration with exponential investment for a linear outcome. This can sound wild at first, but this a way to reduce the gap while still rewarding invested player in a way that still make it an intense fight.

[taiiat]

39 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

• Adaptative Overguard decay at a fixed rate depending on the target. It determine the maximum intended duration of the fight (ignoring normal health under it, that should exist but be negligible). Due to the fixed decay rate, it means there is a maximum duration to this fight, any damage done reduce said maximum.
  The fixed decay mean you can deplete it with 0 damage by just waiting, but if you have trouble dealing damage you most likely have trouble surviving as well, so it's still a tough fight. As for afk-ing, if you are able to casually survive, yes you can afk but you're wasting time by not dealing damage.

you can avoid any possible potential at all for abuse and make it generally more interesting, if the Decay is like a special 'magic' DoT that's based on the incoming Damage. doesn't Drain on its own, but will Drain based on how much Damage you're dealing, probably an average over the past Second or few Seconds, which in effect is a lot like a DoT.

 

39 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

• Adaptative Overguard is split into Gates. Each gate take 10x less damage than the previous and certain debuffs applies to the way each of them receive (indicated on the screen). The number of gate depend on the target, and the debuffs stacks (for example if the first gate had "no critical hit" and the second have "no ability damage", both would applies on the second Gate and so on).
  The possibles debuffs that will occure are visible before starting the mission (on mission screen for Archons, on the Lich/Sister page, etc) and can include :
  - No critical multiplier
  - One projectile per weapon (to discourage shotguns use)
  - Damage is lowered to 1% and increase by 0.25% every shot to 100% (to discourage snipers/encourage fast fire rate)
  - No ability damage
  - No physical/elemental damage (mutually exclusive)
  - Status effects only or no status effects (mutually exclusive)
  - Take damage only if corresponding status on (for example, viral damage would only apply while a viral status is on the target)
  - Headshot only
  
   

• Every week, the possible Adaptative Overguard debuffs are randomised. This week, it turned out to be : 
  - No critical multipler
  - No ability damage
  - Headshot only
  - Status effect only
  - One projectile per shot
  From there, you can start adapating your loadout to the debuffs, the ideal outcome here is a very accurate single projectile weapon that have high status chance and don't rely on critical hits, which is modded for any DoT status effect. Again, this is randomised per week (or Lich/Sister), so the ideal loadout does vary for every fight.

i hate it.

Edited September 21, 2023 by taiiat

[lukinu_u]

il y a 3 minutes, taiiat a dit :

you can avoid any possible potential at all for abuse and make it generally more interesting, if the Decay is like a special 'magic' DoT that's based on the incoming Damage. doesn't Drain on its own, but will Drain based on how much Damage you're dealing, probably an average over the past Second or few Seconds, which in effect is a lot like a DoT.

I'm not sure to understand, if it's just a DoT how is it different from just dealing damage ?
I mean, if you just spread the damage dealt over a certain duration, anything that would one shot still does, but slighly delayed. Unless there is some damage reduction applied to said DoT, but in this case it's just like the current system and would carry the same issues.

 

il y a 7 minutes, taiiat a dit :

i hate it.

What part specifically ? The whole thing or just the randomised damage debuffs ?

If you are talking about the randomised damage debuff, the intention is to still have unique modifiers that encourage a unique loadout (like it currently does), but having so per occurence of the boss with much more variety rather than a fixed one. In my opinion, adaptability should be key in any high level content.
But maybe they could simply reduce the damage output of simply removing them (-50% physical damage instead of none, halved critical multiplier instead of none, etc), but I'm afraid it wouldn't have as much impact and just make the fight boring again because you don't need to care about the modifiers.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Seems… kind of complex; simply telling the player what the recommended amount of power is and letting them decide how they want to deal with it seems a lot more achievable and a lot less of a hassle to pull off and wouldn’t lead to weird edge case scenarios like the current incarnation.

Here’s a fight. It’s designed for this amount of damage and survival. If you want to bring more options to the fight, here’s the range you can pick from, and if you want to just stick to one build then now you know how much you need to overbuild by

[Voltage]

The reason we have Overguard now is because of a failure in properly balancing damage and eHP. Damage Attenuation and "Adaptive Overguard" in this case are both a failure in the same way.

You really can't hide from this truth, no matter how many additional systems you may try to add. I feel like this is why DE has pursued one of two things

• Abandoning your gear roster through Drifter/Operator/Necramech/Railjack/Archwing/etc. gameplay.
• Abandoning balance and just pushing more powercreep like Incarnons.

It's monumental to realistically fix these issues, and it would have a potential risk of ruining how the game has played for years between build investment and gameplay expectations. 

I really dislike this concept of trying to get undergeared players "caught up" or "shortening the gap". That gap is called progression, and it's perfectly fine to have it. If the game feels good to play, the player will just reach a geared state through their play time. Trying to bridge this gap only undermines gear progression and encourages players to search for exploits within that mechanic to remove it as an obstacle. This is exactly how this plays out in practice.

Players killing these enemies quickly should be a reward for their effort, but reaching that state shouldn't be as accessible as it is now. That is a major factor for this problem as well, and it would require unraveling years of compounded decisions (Helminth being an easy example).

Edited September 22, 2023 by Voltage

[taiiat]

4 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

I'm not sure to understand, if it's just a DoT how is it different from just dealing damage ?
I mean, if you just spread the damage dealt over a certain duration, anything that would one shot still does, but slighly delayed. Unless there is some damage reduction applied to said DoT, but in this case it's just like the current system and would carry the same issues.

just hypothesizing a way to, uh, 'forcibly drag things out' in a way that can't be abused and still has a reason to keep attacking rather than anything silly.

however in practice it's still going to feel kinda... mediocre since the inherently very little feedback with such a system. you kinda just shoot at it for a while and eventually it dies from boredom. similar to how the 'intended play' works now. heh.

4 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

What part specifically ? The whole thing or just the randomised damage debuffs ?

If you are talking about the randomised damage debuff, the intention is to still have unique modifiers that encourage a unique loadout (like it currently does), but having so per occurence of the boss with much more variety rather than a fixed one. In my opinion, adaptability should be key in any high level content.
But maybe they could simply reduce the damage output of simply removing them (-50% physical damage instead of none, halved critical multiplier instead of none, etc), but I'm afraid it wouldn't have as much impact and just make the fight boring again because you don't need to care about the modifiers.

oh you're right sorry, i didn't snip specifically enough. i must have gotten distracted and forgot.

yeah, the randomized debuffs part. meh, i hate it.
it just means that randomly your Gear is really weak without totally changing your Mods, but this is just creating chores for the Player outside of the Missions, rather than actually playing the Missions.
i don't think "change your Mods a bunch" is a good ""Mechanic"". the game should have rules and be consistent about them. because lategame especially, what the Player is there for, is finding reasons to play, not spending time with Menu Animations or otherwise faffing about with their Inventory. it's one thing to need a variety of Resources and so you go and play to get them, it's another to have to faff about with your Inventory because the game wants to play ""Mechanics Tetris"". not to be confused with Inventory Tetris, an actually enjoyed pass time of some gamers (myself included, sometimes). or Inventory Management in some looter games.

""Mechanics Tetris"" is just annoying. all you'll end up getting from it is Players rotate their Weapons to ones that are well suited for the RNG, which isn't really diversity.
if you want the chance for diversity, having consistent rules so that Players could reach a point of "i feel like swapping to this stuff for this Today", is really your best shot. like what Circuit is trying to go for, but only gets partway to.

 

 

 

59 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I really dislike this concept of trying to get undergeared players "caught up" or "shortening the gap". That gap is called progression, and it's perfectly fine to have it. If the game feels good to play, the player will just reach a geared state through their play time. Trying to bridge this gap only undermines gear progression and encourages players to search for exploits within that mechanic to remove it as an obstacle. This is exactly how this plays out in practice.

indeed, for me atleast, that's for sure. since this is kind've an Archons Thread tbh - the only reason i'm willing to do Archons at all is because of being able to use Multishot and Headshots.
if that wasn't there, i just wouldn't play them. the "intended way to play" is very boring. there isn't really any... skill, or preparation involved. nay, we just Walk around Clicking on the screamy angry thing until it dies of boredom, hopefully before the Player dies of boredom instead.

taking them out in a handful of Shots isn't really spectacular or anything, but it's less boring and i'll pick what's less boring if i'm forced to have to make such a choice over actual Gameplay.

[BroDutt]

How about a reverse damage attenuation mod/arcane for weapon?

The more you stack the less damage attenuation enemy get. Or more weakness (cap at 50%) if you use the same damage to the enemy.

[(XBOX)Mastermitchel89]

Why not just over simplify Damage attenuation into a mini healthbar like Eidolon shields

Examplifying: All Weapons do 100 Damage but fire rate divides it then x2 the remainder (or similar) towards DA Enemies

Now you do a set damage and DA bosses can have set health like Boreal could now have minimized stats such as 3000 health and 450 Armor {instead of his current 500,000 or something}

[lukinu_u]

Il y a 10 heures, (NSW)Greybones a dit :

Seems… kind of complex; simply telling the player what the recommended amount of power is and letting them decide how they want to deal with it seems a lot more achievable and a lot less of a hassle to pull off and wouldn’t lead to weird edge case scenarios like the current incarnation.

Here’s a fight. It’s designed for this amount of damage and survival. If you want to bring more options to the fight, here’s the range you can pick from, and if you want to just stick to one build then now you know how much you need to overbuild by

It would make sense but the issues DE tried to solves is the "no effort boss one shot" problem, which is always possible unless said boss has a ridiculous amount of HP.

If I remember well, the goal of damage attenuation in the first place was to prevent one shot from strong loadouts, while still being doable with reasonably with a weaker one. I don't think it's the right solution but this is what the current system have been which is why my suggestion go in this direction as well.
 

Il y a 8 heures, Voltage a dit :

The reason we have Overguard now is because of a failure in properly balancing damage and eHP. Damage Attenuation and "Adaptive Overguard" in this case are both a failure in the same way.

You really can't hide from this truth, no matter how many additional systems you may try to add. I feel like this is why DE has pursued one of two things

• Abandoning your gear roster through Drifter/Operator/Necramech/Railjack/Archwing/etc. gameplay.
• Abandoning balance and just pushing more powercreep like Incarnons.

It's monumental to realistically fix these issues, and it would have a potential risk of ruining how the game has played for years between build investment and gameplay expectations. 

I really dislike this concept of trying to get undergeared players "caught up" or "shortening the gap". That gap is called progression, and it's perfectly fine to have it. If the game feels good to play, the player will just reach a geared state through their play time. Trying to bridge this gap only undermines gear progression and encourages players to search for exploits within that mechanic to remove it as an obstacle. This is exactly how this plays out in practice.

Players killing these enemies quickly should be a reward for their effort, but reaching that state shouldn't be as accessible as it is now. That is a major factor for this problem as well, and it would require unraveling years of compounded decisions (Helminth being an easy example).

Yeah I completely agree with your position on this. The ideal solution would simply be to balance the game even if it's a ton of work.
But since it's apparently not top a priority (I think Pablo said it during an interview), there is not much we can change about it, so trying to find solutions fitting their current philosophy is what I'm trying to achieve here.
 

Il y a 7 heures, taiiat a dit :

just hypothesizing a way to, uh, 'forcibly drag things out' in a way that can't be abused and still has a reason to keep attacking rather than anything silly.

however in practice it's still going to feel kinda... mediocre since the inherently very little feedback with such a system. you kinda just shoot at it for a while and eventually it dies from boredom. similar to how the 'intended play' works now. heh.

Yeah that's the issue, which is what lead me to the system I described.
You either have no reduction and the fight is completely unbalanced (either one shotting or taking forever) OR you have some weird calculated reduction that is flawed and must reward some fixed uninteresting way of modding like it currently does.

So instead of chosing between the two, some linear reward (in the time required) that need exponetial power to reward all kinds of players seems like a good inbetween.
 

Il y a 7 heures, taiiat a dit :

oh you're right sorry, i didn't snip specifically enough. i must have gotten distracted and forgot.

yeah, the randomized debuffs part. meh, i hate it.
it just means that randomly your Gear is really weak without totally changing your Mods, but this is just creating chores for the Player outside of the Missions, rather than actually playing the Missions.
i don't think "change your Mods a bunch" is a good ""Mechanic"". the game should have rules and be consistent about them. because lategame especially, what the Player is there for, is finding reasons to play, not spending time with Menu Animations or otherwise faffing about with their Inventory. it's one thing to need a variety of Resources and so you go and play to get them, it's another to have to faff about with your Inventory because the game wants to play ""Mechanics Tetris"". not to be confused with Inventory Tetris, an actually enjoyed pass time of some gamers (myself included, sometimes). or Inventory Management in some looter games.

""Mechanics Tetris"" is just annoying. all you'll end up getting from it is Players rotate their Weapons to ones that are well suited for the RNG, which isn't really diversity.
if you want the chance for diversity, having consistent rules so that Players could reach a point of "i feel like swapping to this stuff for this Today", is really your best shot. like what Circuit is trying to go for, but only gets partway to.

I get your point and it's fair, but at the same time I feel like you have this position because you never saw good implementation of the requirement to adapt your loadout.

To me, the main reason for such randomized debuff is to force the player to think and use their knowledge about how the game works. Any non-randomized content fail at this because it simply force a restrictive meta that people ends up knowing and using without this interesting process of adapting to that one specific situation.
All content in the game right now fails at this, because it's either fixed content (Eidolons, Archons, ect) or doesn't reward the player enough for them to bother (Arbitration warframe/weapon buffs, faction mods, circuit, etc).

With a randomized system, you force a different meta each week, which doesn't guarantee players will try making the build themselves, but it does bring a good reason to do so because understanding the game become a valuable skill (as opposed to now, where you can just search for a build online and stick to it for the whole game).
And if you don't want to learn that stuff or don't have the necessary equipment, you can always just stick to your unadapted build and the fight will just be longer.

In short, with this you bring modding as useful skill in the game instead of being a one time thing and you reward players for that.

[(NSW)Greybones]

43 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

It would make sense but the issues DE tried to solves is the "no effort boss one shot" problem, which is always possible unless said boss has a ridiculous amount of HP.

If I remember well, the goal of damage attenuation in the first place was to prevent one shot from strong loadouts, while still being doable with reasonably with a weaker one. I don't think it's the right solution but this is what the current system have been which is why my suggestion go in this direction as well.

A futile effort. The reason players are making those builds, sacrificing variety and customisation to do so, is to one-shot; they’re just going to figure out how to bypass the system to reach their goal, variety is not their main concern.

At the least DE can make the fight more understandable and consistent for those who actually want to fight and are willing to use more options to do so

Edited September 22, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[lukinu_u]

il y a 12 minutes, (NSW)Greybones a dit :

A futile effort. The reason players are making those builds, sacrificing variety and customisation to do so, is to one-shot; they’re just going to figure out how to bypass the system to reach their goal, variety is not their main concern.

This is why we need varitety in useful gears, rather than variety in usable gears.
The distinction is very different because : in one case you let the player use what they want (so using the same OP stuff that  cleared the rest of the game) and in the other, you force the player to use a variety equipment based on the situation, meaning anyone who want to one shot do have to think and build accordingly.

Basically, you're not hurting the average player who don't care about optimisation, but still reward the player with heavy investment that does understand the game and play accordingly. With the current situation you're just hurting everyone and force an uninteresting meta that will never change, so I think it's an improvment.

I'm not saying my solution is perfect, but in theory it does adress the biggest issues about the current system.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 minute ago, lukinu_u said:

This is why we need varitety in useful gears, rather than variety in usable gears.
The distinction is very different because : in one case you let the player use what they want (so using the same OP stuff that  cleared the rest of the game) and in the other, you force the player to use a variety equipment based on the situation, meaning anyone who want to one shot do have to think and build accordingly.

Basically, you're not hurting the average player who don't care about optimisation, but still reward the player with heavy investment that does understand the game and play accordingly. With the current situation you're just hurting everyone and force an uninteresting meta that will never change, so I think it's an improvment.

I'm not saying my solution is perfect, but in theory it does adress the biggest issues about the current system.

The problem here is the idea of forcing someone to play the game. These players already got what they want, they’ve sunk hundreds if not thousands of hours into the game to get to the point where they have One Build To Rule Them All, they’ve crunched the numbers and abandoned the alternatives and not once were they wanting the game to get harder, the point of doing all of that was to remove as much of the fight as efficiently as possible; if you showed me a guide calling the build Easy Steel Path, I’d look at it, say “That sure is some easy Steel Path”, then not use it unless I want sone easy Steel Path while the player looking for the most OP lives in that build because it makes for zero fighting.

I quite like Duviri’s randomiser, but I’m not *@##$ing and moaning about how the game forces me to do anything either

[lukinu_u]

il y a 3 minutes, (NSW)Greybones a dit :

if you showed me a guide calling the build Easy Steel Path, I’d look at it, say “That sure is some easy Steel Path”, then not use it unless I want sone easy Steel Path while the player looking for the most OP lives in that build because it makes for zero fighting.

With that way of thinking, you cannot build a challenging game and that's the whole problem Warframe is having with "endgame" content.
If people can choose the difficulty independently from the reward, you largely encourage "easy mode" (OP stuff) on any content that is repetitive, because you want to farm the thing as fast a possible and thus, won't waste time beating the same content with less efficient content.

And all of that is what lead to the current damage attenuation system. Since people aren't willing to restrict themselves (simply because there is no reason), devs need to implement a system that do it without disavantaging less experienced people too much, which lead to the only solution of artificially shortening the gap between the two parties.
 

il y a 9 minutes, (NSW)Greybones a dit :

These players already got what they want, they’ve sunk hundreds if not thousands of hours into the game to get to the point where they have One Build To Rule Them All, they’ve crunched the numbers and abandoned the alternatives and not once were they wanting the game to get harder, the point of doing all of that was to remove as much of the fight as efficiently as possible;

This is possible simply because no content in the game is designed in a way that encourage people to actually play, and this should be fine up to a certain point but not for any "endgame" content that is added because people asks for difficult and challenging content.
Challenging content should be challenging, which involves challenging the player and not just their equipment. If a "one build to rule them all" exist, the gamemode is just not a challenge unless said build require some skill to be used properly.

And yes, this how it currently work in the game, but my whole point is it shouldn't. And again, no one is "forced" to play a certain because it's simply the way to optimise and make the thing faster if you can / want to. And if you don't to make these efforts, you simply don't deserves the reward for said efforts (which again, are just a faster mission, not any additional and/or unique stuff).

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 minute ago, lukinu_u said:

With that way of thinking, you cannot build a challenging game and that's the whole problem Warframe is having with "endgame" content.
If people can choose the difficulty independently from the reward, you largely encourage "easy mode" (OP stuff) on any content that is repetitive, because you want to farm the thing as fast a possible and thus, won't waste time beating the same content with less efficient content.

And all of that is what lead to the current damage attenuation system. Since people aren't willing to restrict themselves (simply because there is no reason), devs need to implement a system that do it without disavantaging less experienced people too much, which lead to the only solution of artificially shortening the gap between the two parties.
 

This is possible simply because no content in the game is designed in a way that encourage people to actually play, and this should be fine up to a certain point but not for any "endgame" content that is added because people asks for difficult and challenging content.
Challenging content should be challenging, which involves challenging the player and not just their equipment. If a "one build to rule them all" exist, the gamemode is just not a challenge unless said build require some skill to be used properly.

And yes, this how it currently work in the game, but my whole point is it shouldn't. And again, no one is "forced" to play a certain because it's simply the way to optimise and make the thing faster if you can / want to. And if you don't to make these efforts, you simply don't deserves the reward for said efforts (which again, are just a faster mission, not any additional and/or unique stuff).

These players are grinding oh-so-effectively for things they never use. The game already has challenge to it for a player and their build while leaving room for customisation and variety and can have more challenge with customisation and variety, and those players are actively avoiding both the customisation and the fight. Their desire to not play was already there practically from the beginning when they decided to load up on damage mods first and hang around lower-level content and it will remain there through everything you throw at them; stop trying to get them to play when they clearly don’t want to, because it’s making things overtly complex and weird for those who do want to play with all the stuff they’ve earned in different ways.

Let the Meta-heads have what they’re looking for (it’s not even like OP build makes for a good player), there’s plenty of build puzzles to solve outside of the Meta, the game already does a good job of providing a reason to build well and a reason to earn more options. Remove Damage Attenuation (at least from Archons; even Liches feel better), let those who want to fight with variety fight with variety and let those who don’t want to play… rot, I guess, because they’re already validated for their efforts and they’re where they want to be. If they suddenly want an actual fight they’re going to have to reconsider why they’re building their gear and loadouts the way they are, otherwise they’re going to forever be chasing those ways to bypass what you’re bringing to the table

[lukinu_u]

il y a 46 minutes, (NSW)Greybones a dit :

These players are grinding oh-so-effectively for things they never use. The game already has challenge to it for a player and their build while leaving room for customisation and variety and can have more challenge with customisation and variety, and those players are actively avoiding both the customisation and the fight. Their desire to not play was already there practically from the beginning when they decided to load up on damage mods first and hang around lower-level content and it will remain there through everything you throw at them; stop trying to get them to play when they clearly don’t want to, because it’s making things overtly complex and weird for those who do want to play with all the stuff they’ve earned in different ways.

Let the Meta-heads have what they’re looking for (it’s not even like OP build makes for a good player), there’s plenty of build puzzles to solve outside of the Meta, the game already does a good job of providing a reason to build well and a reason to earn more options. Remove Damage Attenuation (at least from Archons; even Liches feel better), let those who want to fight with variety fight with variety and let those who don’t want to play… rot, I guess, because they’re already validated for their efforts and they’re where they want to be. If they suddenly want an actual fight they’re going to have to reconsider why they’re building their gear and loadouts the way they are, otherwise they’re going to forever be chasing those ways to bypass what you’re bringing to the table

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm one of those players that do lean toward a single effective build, and I do it simply because it's the most effective soluion.

I'm all for a good reason to swap loadout and think differently (which is why I loved Eidolons, Orbs an any other content that encouraged a different loadout), but the problem is 99% of the game is doable without said adaptation and it just encourage that single effective build because it's the most efficient AND require less investment (in overall resources but also in time between mission because you don't have to think about the situation and swap accordingly).

The fun part about having a strong build isn't the direct outcome, but the whole process of understanding the theory and building the thing based the current requirement. But when these requirement are the exact same for the entierty of the game there is no fun, which is why diversity in required gears for different content is what will please the people you call "meta-heads".

To me the biggest issue in the game is the way experienced people seek for complexe challenges while less experienced players seek for more casual content, but the game provide the opposite of what everyone wants, by releasing shared content that is challenging for less experienced players, but boringly easy for experienced ones.
This is the logicial outcome when you design one mission for variety of players with different skill/knowledge/equipment range, but this is the reason "endgame" content should be reasonably doable, but have a second depth that reward most experienced players without penalizing everyone else. And time required to clear the content is probably the easiest solution.

To sumarise this :

THE PROBLEM

• Casual players want casual content, but get challenging content they don't want.
• Experienced players want challenging content, but get "challenging content for casual players", that is boringly easy for them.
• Nobody is happy because everyone get the opposite of what they ask for.

THE SOLUTION

• Make content that feels challenging for casual player, but artificially because they don't want that challenge (long fight that feels intense, but where your performance don't matter that much), and reward them for completing said "challenge".
• Bring a second depth to that "artificially challenging" content, by added skillful mechanics and highly specialised builds in the equation that let you finish the thing faster. This reward experienced invested players, but with no additional rewards, just time efficiency. This ensure they get rewarded for their efforts without casual players missing anything by playing at their own pace.
• Everyone is happy because no content is locked behind difficulty, but still get rewarded for taking this additional challenge.
• The only unhappy people are the meta slaves that do search for efficiency without understanding the game, but they just fall in the "casual player" category until they learn how to play, so it's fine.

Edited September 22, 2023 by lukinu_u

[(NSW)Greybones]

52 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm one of those players that do lean toward a single effective build, and I do it simply because it's the most effective soluion.

I'm all for a good reason to swap loadout and think differently (which is why I loved Eidolons, Orbs an any other content that encouraged a different loadout), but the problem is 99% of the game is doable without said adaptation and it just encourage that single effective build because it's the most efficient AND require less investment (in overall resources but also in time between mission because you don't have to think about the situation and swap accordingly).

The fun part about having a strong build isn't the direct outcome, but the whole process of understanding the theory and building the thing based the current requirement. But when these requirement are the exact same for the entierty of the game there is no fun, which is why diversity in required gears for different content is what will please the people you call "meta-heads".

To me the biggest issue in the game is the way experienced people seek for complexe challenges while less experienced players seek for more casual content, but the game provide the opposite of what everyone wants, by releasing shared content that is challenging for less experienced players, but boringly easy for experienced ones.
This is the logicial outcome when you design one mission for variety of players with different skill/knowledge/equipment range, but this is the reason "endgame" content should be reasonably doable, but have a second depth that reward most experienced players without penalizing everyone else. And time required to clear the content is probably the easiest solution.

To sumarise this :

THE PROBLEM

• Casual players want casual content, but get challenging content they don't want.
• Experienced players want challenging content, but get "challenging content for casual players", that is boringly easy for them.
• Nobody is happy because everyone get the opposite of what they ask for.

THE SOLUTION

• Make content that feels challenging for casual player, but artificially because they don't want that challenge (long fight that feels intense, but where your performance don't matter that much), and reward them for completing said "challenge".
• Bring a second depth to that "artificially challenging" content, by added skillful mechanics and highly specialised builds in the equation that let you finish the thing faster. This reward experienced invested players, but with no additional rewards, just time efficiency. This ensure they get rewarded for their efforts without casual players missing anything by playing at their own pace.
• Everyone is happy because no content is locked behind difficulty, but still get rewarded for taking this additional challenge.
• The only unhappy people are the meta slaves that do search for efficiency without understanding the game, but they just fall in the "casual player" category until they learn how to play, so it's fine.

Then let the single most effective way to build be just that; it’s what it was meant to be (though I’m not sure how it’s cheaper in overall resources; overkill will require more investment to make the build do all of the carry instead of relying on the player), it’s why the effort was spent, it’s a result of the game having fairly-consistent rules (except DA) that players learn and then learn to bypass, it validates their effort and no-one is making a build like it thinking “This is merely sufficient for the content and lets the game breath”, they’re trying to figure out how to break the game which is a goal that’s fundamentally at odds with an un-broken game.  

And when it’s outstayed its welcome, then break it apart into its components and rebuild or use an entirely alternative build; if your concern is that others will treat you like some kind of bad player because you’re not using the build that’s going to be used by bad players, then know that if you bring your capability as a player to bear you can push every single build that can be made from the modless baseline higher than the next guy who only knows the Meta and now you’ve got a reason to not only build in other ways, but to learn how to play using those builds and your options in the hypothetical Better Archons Without DA will be expanded because you’re not stuck relying on a few builds that do all the carrying because you both know how to build more options as well as for more gameplay customisation (not just throwing a bunch of damage mods on and calling it a day) as well as how to use them. The game already lets players who aren’t great play using builds that are OP for the content; let them play. The game already lets players looking for a fight with options get a fight with options; let them use those options in a fight. You can’t use the builds that are designed for player ease of use and expect to experience a fight, though

Edited September 22, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 13 heures, Voltage a dit :

I really dislike this concept of trying to get undergeared players "caught up" or "shortening the gap". That gap is called progression, and it's perfectly fine to have it. If the game feels good to play, the player will just reach a geared state through their play time. Trying to bridge this gap only undermines gear progression and encourages players to search for exploits within that mechanic to remove it as an obstacle. This is exactly how this plays out in practice.

Agreed with that. Progression is the journey, which is what should be enjoyed. Sadly, there isn't much of a journey when you can just ignore most obstacles the games throws at you.

• Want to never die? Abuse Revenant's Mesmer Skin.
• Want to obliterate Hemocytes when Plaguestar is here? Abuse Titania when hosting.
• Want to oneshot archons? Abuse Felarx nocrit radiation build with Rhino's roar.
• Want to oneshot acolytes? Abuse Full Damage Corrosive Kuva Bramma.
• Want to pulverize the Steel Path Ropalolyst? Abuse Madurai 1st operator ability.

The list goes on. While some are fairly endgame, like the Felarx, most cheesing options are available within weeks of playing at worst. It's that easy to seek out the tools needed to exploit everything the game throws at you.

I don't think damage calculations and balance were ever designed for the level of power we've gotten over the years. If the base for all the damage logics is already flawed by default, adding all the bandaids in the world will never fix the damage related issues. Reworking everything related to damage from the ground up would practically be making a whole different game though.

[lukinu_u]

il y a 41 minutes, Fred_Avant_2019 a dit :

I don't think damage calculations and balance were ever designed for the level of power we've gotten over the years. If the base for all the damage logics is already flawed by default, adding all the bandaids in the world will never fix the damage related issues. Reworking everything related to damage from the ground up would practically be making a whole different game though.

Yes this is definitely the healthier long term solution.
If it's making a whole diffrent game (as you mentionned), it would most likely be a much more enjoyable one. The game is fun, but powercreep isn't part of the fun, like practically every game.

I wish more people agreed with that, for the games to lean in this direction.

 

Il y a 2 heures, (NSW)Greybones a dit :

Then let the single most effective way to build be just that; it’s what it was meant to be (though I’m not sure how it’s cheaper in overall resources; overkill will require more investment to make the build do all of the carry instead of relying on the player), it’s why the effort was spent, it’s a result of the game having fairly-consistent rules (except DA) that players learn and then learn to bypass, it validates their effort and no-one is making a build like it thinking “This is merely sufficient for the content and lets the game breath”, they’re trying to figure out how to break the game which is a goal that’s fundamentally at odds with an un-broken game.  

And when it’s outstayed its welcome, then break it apart into its components and rebuild or use an entirely alternative build; if your concern is that others will treat you like some kind of bad player because you’re not using the build that’s going to be used by bad players, then know that if you bring your capability as a player to bear you can push every single build that can be made from the modless baseline higher than the next guy who only knows the Meta and now you’ve got a reason to not only build in other ways, but to learn how to play using those builds and your options in the hypothetical Better Archons Without DA will be expanded because you’re not stuck relying on a few builds that do all the carrying because you both know how to build more options as well as for more gameplay customisation (not just throwing a bunch of damage mods on and calling it a day) as well as how to use them. The game already lets players who aren’t great play using builds that are OP for the content; let them play. The game already lets players looking for a fight with options get a fight with options; let them use those options in a fight. You can’t use the builds that are designed for player ease of use and expect to experience a fight, though

That's the issue, "learning to bypass" shouldn't be a step in the process.
Learning to bypass means there is a certain breakpoint where further optimisation is useless, and this is when it become boring, especially when the breaking logic is often the same.

Considering "bypass" as an inherant part of the process will never lead to interesting gameplay. The only thing it provides is a way for unexperienced people to feel the satisfaction of reaching the limit, but it's not satisfying when they realise everyone can do it without effort.

[taiiat]

6 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

So instead of chosing between the two, some linear reward (in the time required) that need exponetial power to reward all kinds of players seems like a good inbetween.

it still feels like it sums up to "shoot it until it dies of boredom" - which isn't really any better than it is now, to me.

6 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

I get your point and it's fair, but at the same time I feel like you have this position because you never saw good implementation of the requirement to adapt your loadout.

To me, the main reason for such randomized debuff is to force the player to think and use their knowledge about how the game works. Any non-randomized content fail at this because it simply force a restrictive meta that people ends up knowing and using without this interesting process of adapting to that one specific situation.
All content in the game right now fails at this, because it's either fixed content (Eidolons, Archons, ect) or doesn't reward the player enough for them to bother (Arbitration warframe/weapon buffs, faction mods, circuit, etc).

With a randomized system, you force a different meta each week, which doesn't guarantee players will try making the build themselves, but it does bring a good reason to do so because understanding the game become a valuable skill (as opposed to now, where you can just search for a build online and stick to it for the whole game).
And if you don't want to learn that stuff or don't have the necessary equipment, you can always just stick to your unadapted build and the fight will just be longer.

In short, with this you bring modding as useful skill in the game instead of being a one time thing and you reward players for that.

there are good reasons to adjust our Modding in the game already, it's just that they normally aren't "change your stuff every time you play", because that's tedious and annoying.
back in the Day when Sorties were a big deal, you had some scenarios of wanting to do abnormal Modding. but those were specific Modifiers, so you'd get them once in a while, not every single time and even stacking.
a little bit of shuffling Gear around is interesting, a lot of it is now just a chore.

the game has a lot of chores already, any additional chores should really be very reserved and tightly controlled to try and make them be actually fun. the game has an abundance of busywork.
the longer someone has been playing for, the more they're there just for the Gameplay above anything else. lategame Content should be about playing the game, not avoiding playing it.

Edited September 22, 2023 by taiiat

[Tiltskillet]

I kind of like the basic idea, although I think there'd be annoying issues that would emerge that I might not think of until I actually played it.  I do like that it's more transparent and encourages some thought for versatility in builds and adaptive play during the battle.  (Unfortunately the latter is inherently somewhat limited by the former.)

A few specific feedback points:

 - Seems like too many stages.

 - I might suggest "direct damage only" instead of "headshot only".

 - "No damage buffs from abilities" might be another one.  Maybe just applying to the helminth list: Roar, Eclipse, Xata, Amp, Vex Armor.

 - Instead of just keeling over once the last stage's timer runs out, there should be a token stage where no restrictions apply.

 

[lukinu_u]

Il y a 1 heure, taiiat a dit :

there are good reasons to adjust our Modding in the game already, it's just that they normally aren't "change your stuff every time you play", because that's tedious and annoying.
back in the Day when Sorties were a big deal, you had some scenarios of wanting to do abnormal Modding. but those were specific Modifiers, so you'd get them once in a while, not every single time and even stacking.
a little bit of shuffling Gear around is interesting, a lot of it is now just a chore.

the game has a lot of chores already, any additional chores should really be very reserved and tightly controlled to try and make them be actually fun. the game has an abundance of busywork.
the longer someone has been playing for, the more they're there just for the Gameplay above anything else. lategame Content should be about playing the game, not avoiding playing it.

I agree changing loadout too much can be annoying (even if I still personally like the idea), but since the Adaptative Overguard is here to replace the Damage Attenuation that only applies to a very limited selection of enemies, it shouldn't cause said issue :

• Archons change every week, which seems enough to not feel overwhelming (and again you are not forced too, it's just encouraged).
• Lich/Sister can be cleared and chained at a much faster rate, but they were advertised as "cool boss that adapt to your playstyle and force you to change it", so it's definitely a fitting place for said mechanic.
• Other instances of this reduction are from events, which are months appart.
   

Il y a 1 heure, Tiltskillet a dit :

I kind of like the basic idea, although I think there'd be annoying issues that would emerge that I might not think of until I actually played it.  I do like that it's more transparent and encourages some thought for versatility in builds and adaptive play during the battle.  (Unfortunately the latter is inherently somewhat limited by the former.)

A few specific feedback points:

 - Seems like too many stages.

 - I might suggest "direct damage only" instead of "headshot only".

 - "No damage buffs from abilities" might be another one.  Maybe just applying to the helminth list: Roar, Eclipse, Xata, Amp, Vex Armor.

 - Instead of just keeling over once the last stage's timer runs out, there should be a token stage where no restrictions apply.

Yeah I kinda agree with that.
The set of restriction was a bit random without thoughts, so some of them could definitely need changes and more could be added.

As for the lack of adaptive play during the battle, maybe the restrictions should be a bit more impactful but not stack, so you have good reason to mod and equip multiple weapons that each suit one of the possible debuff (both on your own arsenal and as a team).

[(NSW)Greybones]

6 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

That's the issue, "learning to bypass" shouldn't be a step in the process.
Learning to bypass means there is a certain breakpoint where further optimisation is useless, and this is when it become boring, especially when the breaking logic is often the same.

Considering "bypass" as an inherant part of the process will never lead to interesting gameplay. The only thing it provides is a way for unexperienced people to feel the satisfaction of reaching the limit, but it's not satisfying when they realise everyone can do it without effort.

The game is always going to be designed around Enough Optimisation, where every level tier and every mission has a certain amount of optimisation of survival and damage required before giving room for players to branch out into ways to customise and play (and it’s different for different loadouts, builds, and skill levels); it’s the players actively searching for More Than Enough Optimisation that are searching for how to break the game, and they’re chasing something infinite.

Bypassing to the extent we’re talking isn’t meant to be part of the process, but you try telling that to players who take higher-level builds lower, figure out the most esoteric ways to build and the weirdest interactions, and abuse Shieldgating for invincibility on demand. These aren’t players who are interested in balance or the process of figuring out the gameplay in the first place except what it takes to avoid it, which is why they get so pissy when you try and force gameplay on them. The game may not be designed around being bypassed (like, how is an enemy of a certain level designed for a certain tier of build going to then be designed for a different tier of build, or a no-shield modifier going to work when someone brings a Warframe with no shields?), but bypassing is the default for these players and is one of the biggest overarching goals; How to Break Everything.

Your suggestion will be just another system to break, another hurdle to overcome not through how the game is designed or any particularly skilfull play, but how it can be exploited. I’m under the impression that DE know this (they’ve been dealing with this community for 10 years and probably know a thing or two about how they work), which is why SP is just a bunch of stat increases with no real concern for balance because they introduced the mode for players who don’t care about balance or game, they just want to break everything however they can. So design the game around those who want to play it and leave the gamebreakers to enjoy what they’ve been searching for

Edited September 23, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[Zaghyr]

On 2023-09-21 at 10:41 PM, taiiat said:

it just means that randomly your Gear is really weak without totally changing your Mods, but this is just creating chores for the Player outside of the Missions, rather than actually playing the Missions.
i don't think "change your Mods a bunch" is a good ""Mechanic"". the game should have rules and be consistent about them. because lategame especially, what the Player is there for, is finding reasons to play, not spending time with Menu Animations or otherwise faffing about with their Inventory. it's one thing to need a variety of Resources and so you go and play to get them, it's another to have to faff about with your Inventory because the game wants to play ""Mechanics Tetris"". not to be confused with Inventory Tetris, an actually enjoyed pass time of some gamers (myself included, sometimes). or Inventory Management in some looter games.

Are you expecting that we should just be able to load into an Archon hunt with any loadout and be fine? It's an Archon HUNT. This is an endgame type mission that shows up once a weak that is there to test mechanics and game knowledge. Tailoring your build to fight an Archon is not a chore, it's a minimum expectation and part of the experience, the archon hunt is not supposed to be a pastime event like loading a Kuva Bramma into every missions and killing fodder. 

On 2023-09-21 at 10:41 PM, taiiat said:

""Mechanics Tetris"" is just annoying. all you'll end up getting from it is Players rotate their Weapons to ones that are well suited for the RNG, which isn't really diversity.
if you want the chance for diversity, having consistent rules so that Players could reach a point of "i feel like swapping to this stuff for this Today", is really your best shot. like what Circuit is trying to go for, but only gets partway to.

This would never encourage diversity it would eliminate it. Players are so accustomed to completing missions at lightning pace that they would prefer to use the weapon that clears the map the fastest. There would be no "I feel like using this today", it would be the same weapon nearly every time. We had this problem already with Kuva Bramma before the nerfs.

Archon Hunts are supposed to be an endgame activity, not a fodder killer mission. Having a diverse loadout to deal with whatever the game throws at you is part of the expectation of content like this.

[taiiat]

17 minutes ago, Zaghyr said:

Are you expecting that we should just be able to load into an Archon hunt with any loadout and be fine?

that depends on ones' Definition of 'any loadout'. my Definition of that would be 'if i follow the set rules of the game and take advantage of as many Game Mechanics as possible, then i should perform competently'.

19 minutes ago, Zaghyr said:

the archon hunt is not supposed to be a pastime event like loading a Kuva Bramma into every missions and killing fodder. 

you can say that, but that's literally how it's designed as intended literally right now. the intent was for everything to suck so that you shoot at it until the Enemy dies of boredom, irregardless of what Equipment you brought. the couple Game Mechanics that didn't get grouped in are oversights, since we're Talking about a difference of like 50-100x the DPS performance.
i think you're projecting what you want the Content to be, vs what the game has told us it's supposed to be.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Zaghyr said:

This would never encourage diversity it would eliminate it.

forcing arbitrary rules doesn't either, that's just strawman. if anything one could argue neither is diversity, making it basically pointless for having Pinged me despite having nothing to actually Say.

allowing flexibility is the only way you get any, preventing flexibility obviously prevents there being any. you'd have to turn it into like Circuit, where your Gear is just random. that's actual diversity then, on all Players.
anything short of that, diversity only comes if/when Players are competent enough to allow themselves to. that's always a fraction of the Playerbase for every game.

punishing some to not actually address or solve a problem, just means punishing good Players for existing, while a mixture of no change and annoyance for the rest of the Players.
nah, i'm good.

[lukinu_u]

Il y a 1 heure, Zaghyr a dit :

Are you expecting that we should just be able to load into an Archon hunt with any loadout and be fine? It's an Archon HUNT. This is an endgame type mission that shows up once a weak that is there to test mechanics and game knowledge. Tailoring your build to fight an Archon is not a chore, it's a minimum expectation and part of the experience, the archon hunt is not supposed to be a pastime event like loading a Kuva Bramma into every missions and killing fodder. 

This would never encourage diversity it would eliminate it. Players are so accustomed to completing missions at lightning pace that they would prefer to use the weapon that clears the map the fastest. There would be no "I feel like using this today", it would be the same weapon nearly every time. We had this problem already with Kuva Bramma before the nerfs.

Archon Hunts are supposed to be an endgame activity, not a fodder killer mission. Having a diverse loadout to deal with whatever the game throws at you is part of the expectation of content like this.

Thanks, I wouldn't say it better.
 

il y a une heure, taiiat a dit :

that depends on ones' Definition of 'any loadout'. my Definition of that would be 'if i follow the set rules of the game and take advantage of as many Game Mechanics as possible, then i should perform competently'.

And that's exactly the reason rules should rotates, to reward players for understanding and mastering all game mechanics.

If you can only use one loadout for the game, why would you bother learning and understanding the rest. I mean, yes you do "for fun", but there is no fun challenge when you can just cheat at any point by swapping, especially when there is long farm involved.
 

il y a une heure, taiiat a dit :

you can say that, but that's literally how it's designed as intended literally right now. the intent was for everything to suck so that you shoot at it until the Enemy dies of boredom, irregardless of what Equipment you brought. the couple Game Mechanics that didn't get grouped in are oversights, since we're Talking about a difference of like 50-100x the DPS performance.

Yes this how it's designed right now, and it's a problem.
Improving that is the whole point of this topic, and issues in the current system shouldn't be considered as something to keep, since they are... the issues that need a solution XD
 

il y a une heure, taiiat a dit :

forcing arbitrary rules doesn't either, that's just strawman. if anything one could argue neither is diversity, making it basically pointless for having Pinged me despite having nothing to actually Say.

allowing flexibility is the only way you get any, preventing flexibility obviously prevents there being any. you'd have to turn it into like Circuit, where your Gear is just random. that's actual diversity then, on all Players.
anything short of that, diversity only comes if/when Players are competent enough to allow themselves to. that's always a fraction of the Playerbase for every game.

punishing some to not actually address or solve a problem, just means punishing good Players for existing, while a mixture of no change and annoyance for the rest of the Players.
nah, i'm good.

The idea here is not diversity in how every person play, but diversity in what equipment is useful to avoid a boring single meta. Avoiding a static meta by constantly changing the rules in the only way to reward people that do understand the game, and this is what endgame should be.

You will probably not like this, but the only reason you feel like it's an annoyance is most likely because you do not understand the game that well and aren't ready to face every situation. If you did, adapting your loadout to a certain threat should take about 2-3min at max without considerably affecting your performance.
If the above is not the case for you, you are just not ready for it and it's ok because everyone have to learn, and you have a whole week to prepare (in case of Archons).

And if you feel like it's a chore to  do something a bit different and challenging, you should seriously think about it, because repetitives activities that doesn't stimulate your brain are really not healthy, even as a hobby.