Thoughts/input on new shield gating?

[Qriist]

29 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I'm sorry, but what we said is true.

Shield gate is not only spamming abilities : just avoiding damage to regen shields is shield gating.

No, I refute your argument. My understanding of the topic at hand, and how "shield gating" was being used in the context of those posts I replied to, that we were specifically discussing the exploitative perma-invincible sort of gameplay that this update is intended to address.

Within that context my stance remains the same.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

On 2023-09-30 at 11:59 PM, L3512 said:

You never needed full shields to get a gate and 350 shields are too much to fill for old setups so the new mod will need to be used, that's objectively a nerf.

all frames r getting shields increased, stop complaining about stupid dragon key 

[AegidiusF]

Let's go by parts.

Il y a 1 heure, Qriist a dit :

No, I refute your argument.

No, you don't. You contradict my statement. There is no refutation on what you said and you did not analyzed my argument, just my statement.

It's all right to contradict someone's statement and you can perfectly do it, but it's not a refutation.

Il y a 1 heure, Qriist a dit :

My understanding of the topic at hand, and how "shield gating" was being used in the context of those posts I replied to

Yes, I understand, perhaps you were using shield gating in a very restrictive meaning, but the three players you quoted in your previous answer (me included) were not talking about a restricted shield gate meaning, but we were opposing shiled gate to face tanking (EHP only) - this was explicit. We were saying that at some level, face tanking (surviving by your EHP only) is not enough and shield gate is the only thing (preventing one shots) that will keep you alive.

Il y a 2 heures, Qriist a dit :

that we were specifically discussing the exploitative perma-invincible sort of gameplay that this update is intended to address.

You quoted two players, Warfare3376 and me. I agree with almost everything Warfare3376 said on hist posts and I don't see him using a restrictive meaning on shield gate.

Here are the complete text you quoted from Warfare3376 :

Le 15/10/2023 à 22:36, (NSW)warfare3376 a dit :

This is why I dislike arguments against the key theres too much focus on how much more mod slot efficient and outright "better" shield gate builds are in comparison to the other options but dont think about why that it is. For 99% of the games content shield gate builds are actually on par with the other options in terms of survivability due to the much higher maintenance required from those build, its the 1% people do look at tho and see shield gate as the only viable option then base all comparisons off of that. its not that shield gate builds arent so better, its that the other options are so much worse and have always been unviable. So what I dont understand are people so adamant about bringing shield gate builds down to the lvl of other options rather than bring the other options up. And changing the key to a mod slot btw will still have shield gate builds use up less mod slots than the alternatives, so the other alternatives will still be so much worse and just as unviable while some shield gate builds will be slightly inconvenienced and still be "mandatory" for higher lvls, nobody wins.

What's he is saying ? That shied gate is not necessary for 99% of the game content and that, for the reamining 1%, there are not other viable options. And I totally agree with him.

You also quoted a statement from this :

Le 16/10/2023 à 08:25, (NSW)warfare3376 a dit :

If youre not supposed to go higher than shield gating would have never been added, what would have been done instead to deal with the one hits is just significantly reduce the lvl cap enemies to the lvl you are supposed to get to. And as Ive said in content youre "supposed" to be playing health tank builds require far less effort than shield gate builds and this is coming from someone who almost always health ranks, highest Id normally go up to is about an hour maybe 2 sp surv and it is braindead easy and way more than shield gating. Shield gate build are easy too but definitely not easier than health tanking so there really is no reason to use it over health tank builds except for some extra mod space for a bit extra power which is also completely unnecessary. And as for shield gate builds allowing you to survive lvl cap, so what? There is literally zero incentive to do so you get nothing special and there will never be anything extra so, so what if somewhat wants to go to lvl cap why gatekeep that. 

And again I totally agree with him and I don't see him use a restricted meaning of shield gate : he just mentions shield builds that are not necessarily "perma-invincible exploits", as you said, (there is no exploit in shield gating, by the way), and you can clearly see him saying that (outside very high levels), shield gate is not as easy as health tank.

Shield gating is not Mesmer Skin and it will require much more than just casting abilities : CC, moving all the time, avoiding damage. It requires much more skills than any possible exploit. Invisibility is currently much more viable for survivability than shield gating.

Il y a 3 heures, Qriist a dit :

Within that context my stance remains the same.

I agree with you that in the context of brainlessy spamming abilities to benefit from shield gate invulnerability phase your position can remain the same, but even if we take shield gating with this restricted meaning, health tanking (tanking with only EHP/DR) will remain not viable on cap level and that was my point.

[Qriist]

1 minute ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Let's go by parts.

No, you don't. You contradict my statement. There is no refutation on what you said and you did not analyzed my argument, just my statement.

It's all right to contradict someone's statement and you can perfectly do it, but it's not a refutation.

Respectfully, I refute your assertion.

 

4 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Yes, I understand, perhaps you were using shield gating in a very restrictive meaning, but the three players you quoted in your previous answer (me included) were not talking about a restricted shield gate meaning, but we were opposing shiled gate to face tanking (EHP only) - this was explicit. We were saying that at some level, face tanking (surviving by your EHP only) is not enough and shield gate is the only thing (preventing one shots) that will keep you alive.

To clarify, I quoted you once and @(NSW)warfare3376 twice. There was no third person. Anyways.

My interpretation of warfare's statements remain unchanged. He is full-throatedly advocating that shield-gating builds are the only viable loadouts at higher levels. That seems self-evident from the snippets I quoted but just to be sure I went back and confirmed in context. He is in no way discussing the advantages of the "natural" shield gate that you seem to be referring to now.

 

17 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

 health tanking (tanking with only EHP/DR) will remain not viable on cap level and that was my point.

A point I refute based on my own playstyle and experiences. I mean, I get that my source is literally "trust me bro" but I'm not sure what else to tell you.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 10 minutes, Qriist a dit :

Respectfully, I refute your assertion.

🤣 Very good answer ! I'm proud of you. The problem is that you are just saying that I'm right, because you said you were refuting my ARGUMENT, not my assertion. Previously, you were using the main (and first) meaning of refute, and now, you changed ARGUMENT into ASSERTION, using its derived meaning (secondary).

So, I thank you for proving that I was right.

il y a 18 minutes, Qriist a dit :

He is full-throatedly advocating that shield-gating builds are the only viable loadouts at higher levels. That seems self-evident from the snippets I quoted but just to be sure I went back and confirmed in context. He is in no way discussing the advantages of the "natural" shield gate that you seem to be referring to now.

Yes, he is, and he is right. I've shown why he is right.

The problem is that to fix this, shield gate and any other band-aid fix will not be enough, but a rework of the way armor and damage scales.

il y a 20 minutes, Qriist a dit :

A point I refute based on my own playstyle and experiences. I mean, I get that my source is literally "trust me bro" but I'm not sure what else to tell you.

Your experience is a viable argument and I will take it into consideration, but my experience, and many other players experiences, are not the same. In addition to this, the way the enemy damage scales and the amount of DR the different frames can get, confirm our experiences.

As I said before, you can not shield gate and do cap level, but you will need to find a way to avoid damage : invisibility (sometimes just an enemy precision debuff), or a invulnerable (sometimes just immortal) phase : shield gate is just one of these invulnerable phases, and not the most powerful. Martyr Symbiosys+Assault Tek works very well if you are using some CC, but its just an invulnerabilty phase just like shield gate. Vazarin is the same. The point is that without features that will make you avoid damage, health tank is not viable.

Someone that is doing cap level with Titania is not health tanking, but avoiding damage with aggro, CC (specially her 3rd that can work on Eximus) and debuffs (specially the precision debuff). The same goes for Xaku. And when these Titania players or Xaku players get hit, the only thing that is keeping them alive  (preventing one shot) is shield gate.

[Qriist]

4 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

🤣 Very good answer ! I'm proud of you. The problem is that you are just saying that I'm right, because you said you were refuting my ARGUMENT, not my assertion. Previously, you were using the main (and first) meaning of refute, and now, you changed ARGUMENT into ASSERTION, using its derived meaning (secondary).

So, I thank you for proving that I was right.

I refuted your argument regarding level cap builds.

I refuted your assertion regarding my use of the word refute.

You were, and remain, wrong.

 

6 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Yes, he is, and he is right. I've shown why he is right.

We will have to agree to disagree as to the meaning of his words.

 

7 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

As I said before, you can not shield gate and do cap level, but you will need to find a way to avoid damage : invisibility (sometimes just an enemy precision debuff), or a invulnerable (sometimes just immortal) phase : shield gate is just one of these invulnerable phases, and not the most powerful. Martyr Symbiosys+Assault Tek works very well if you are using some CC, but its just an invulnerabilty phase just like shield gate. Vazarin is the same. The point is that without features that will make you avoid damage, health tank is not viable.

Those are not what he is arguing.

 

7 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Someone that is doing cap level with Titania is not health tanking, but avoiding damage with aggro, CC (specially her 3rd that can work on Eximus) and debuffs (specially the precision debuff). The same goes for Xaku. And when these Titania players or Xaku players get hit, the only thing that is keeping them alive  (preventing one shot) is shield gate.

I believe we are talking past each other.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 9 minutes, Qriist a dit :

I refuted your argument regarding level cap builds.

I refuted your assertion regarding my use of the word refute.

You were, and remain, wrong.

You didn't refuted my argument (first meaning). I provided numbers, based on the way damage scales and based on the current amount of DR some frames can get and you ignored it. You IGNORED my argument.

You denied my assertion by proving that I was rigth, because you had to change the terms of your statement. And why ? Because when used with the word "argument" the verb to refute has its main (first) meaning, not a derivated meaning.

il y a 12 minutes, Qriist a dit :

We will have to agree to disagree as to the meaning of his words.

I provided number : you can just show that they are not correct.

il y a 12 minutes, Qriist a dit :

Those are not what he is arguing.

He did not mention the other ways to avoid damage (that's the only point I don't really agree with him), but I've mentioned these points and you ignored it. Again, I've shown that even with some features letting you avoid damage, shield gate is what you keep you alive by preventing one shot kill.

 

[Qriist]

3 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

You didn't refuted my argument (first meaning). I provided numbers, based on the way damage scales and based on the current amount of DR some frames can get and you ignored it. You IGNORED my argument.

I explicitly acknowledged and explicitly refuted your argument. That's how we got into this discussion over the word "refute".

Seriously. This is ridiculous.

[L3512]

14 hours ago, (PSN)Spider_Enigma said:

all frames r getting shields increased, stop complaining about stupid dragon key 

You fail to understand basic concepts and took nearly three weeks to respond to a comment I made. I really don't care what you think, please do not waste my time in the future.

[AegidiusF]

Le 18/10/2023 à 16:36, Qriist a dit :

I explicitly acknowledged and explicitly refuted your argument. That's how we got into this discussion over the word "refute".

Seriously. This is ridiculous.

You refuted no argument. You didn't analyzed any of the number I gave you. You ignored everything.

If you don't know how to debate, so don't do it.

[Aruquae]

Wait… are we actually arguing about this still? 
People we have a mod for this now. Sacrificing one slot for the mod is fine. 
If we’re talking about Arcanes, molt reconstruct can be used in replace of an augur mod. I run it with Banshee with the mod (only warframe I actually shieldgate with low shields, and even then that’s with the new update). 
Or if you have natural talent on the build, you can replace it with shards. Then you can put the mod in place of natural talent. 

[drnlmza]

23 minutes ago, Malikili said:

Wait… are we actually arguing about this still? 

It's the forum so yes.

We still have years of random "Keygating was better/worse/whatever" arguments popping up to look forward to.

 

[Aruquae]

1 minute ago, drnlmza said:

It's the forum so yes.

We still have years of random "Keygating was better/worse/whatever" arguments popping up to look forward to.

 

Sometimes I think too highly of these Tenno, but tbf constructive arguments, and discussions in forums is essential. Excluding year long debates that really don’t go anywhere. 

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

I'm going to post this here too incase some people have solutions or ideas. if we build more shields which DE wants, then we are im less in control of our shield gate duration. At a certain point our shields will get one shot regardless of what hit it but on base sp not everything will do that especially with buff to shields. If we are not using condemn or pillage, how are we supposed to have control over this as augur mods and brief respite are less effective with more shields.

While it sucks catalyzing shields is a mod now I'm happy we can still use old shield gating.

Edited October 20, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[AegidiusF]

il y a une heure, (PSN)Joylesstuna a dit :

If we are not using condemn or pillage, how are we supposed to have control over this as augur mods and brief respite are less effective with more shields.

I'm sorry, but I don't really understand this (I'm being serious), as I haven't tested shield gate yet.

They announced that if you have less shields (except if you are using Catalizing Shields), your shield gate duration will be reduced. If you have more shields, you just need to regen 325 shields to get the old 1.33 s of shield gate. This way, it shouldn't matter if you have more shields than that.

Shield gate is not working like this ?

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

1 minute ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I'm sorry, but I don't really understand this (I'm being serious), as I haven't tested shield gate yet.

They announced that if you have less shields (except if you are using Catalizing Shields), your shield gate duration will be reduced. If you have more shields, you just need to regen 325 shields to get the old 1.33 s of shield gate. This way, it shouldn't matter if you have more shields than that.

Shield gate is not working like this ?

You can get up to 2.5 sec of invulnerability with more shields now. It's capped at 1125 shields I think which gives the 2.5 sec.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

If we are not using condemn or pillage, how are we supposed to have control over this as augur mods and brief respite are less effective with more shields.

You have the same control since it scales. It depends how much you can refill with energy->shield mods reliably. If you have 350 shields and can refil 100 it will give you the same gate as if you have 1000 shields and can replenish 100. The higher shields however also mean that you will regain more per second naturally when not taking damage for X amounts of seconds (based on your recharge delay stat).

Condemn and Pillage just means you can hit whatever your cap is for the longest shield gate possible for the build in question. I still havent tested if OS provides a longer shield gate than your max shieds state on the stat screen.

edit: If OS does push you to a longer gate, modding compared to just grabbing condemn or pillage seems pointless. It would also mean that any frame besides Grendel can hit the 2.5 cap with either of those two skills.

Edited October 20, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[AegidiusF]

il y a 15 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

You have the same control since it scales. It depends how much you can refill with energy->shield mods reliably. If you have 350 shields and can refil 100 it will give you the same gate as if you have 1000 shields and can replenish 100. The higher shields however also mean that you will regain more per second naturally when not taking damage for X amounts of seconds (based on your recharge delay stat).

Yes, that's what I was thinking. I thought I was missing some information. Thank you.

il y a 15 minutes, SneakyErvin a dit :

I still havent tested if OS provides a longer shield gate than your max shieds state on the stat screen.

edit: If OS does push you to a longer gate, modding compared to just grabbing condemn or pillage seems pointless. It would also mean that any frame besides Grendel can hit the 2.5 cap with either of those two skills.

Yes, but this will be fixed soon. Pablo announced, a few days before the update, that this was going to happen, but that it was non intended and they were going to fix it in the next cert build. It's also on the "known issues" bug report thread.

This change will be very confusing for players that do not follow the game news on forums.

Citation

It is NOT intended for Overshields to count for Shield Gate duration. We will be removing this with required Code in our next Cert build.

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by (NSW)AegisFifi

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Yes, that's what I was thinking. I thought I was missing some information. Thank you.

Yes, but this will be fixed soon. Pablo announced, a few days before the update, that this was going to happen, but that it was non intended and they were going to fix it in the next cert build. It's also on the "known issues" bug report thread.

This change will be very confusing for players that do not follow the game news on forums.

 

Good to know and it makes perfect sense that OS should not increase the gate beyond your modded gate duration. And great they do it quickly, otherwise they'd just have dragon key 2.0 on their neck, with 2.5 seconds of shield gate instead of 1.3 and only requiring a skill to pull it off on each frame.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You have the same control since it scales. It depends how much you can refill with energy->shield mods reliably. If you have 350 shields and can refil 100 it will give you the same gate as if you have 1000 shields and can replenish 100. The higher shields however also mean that you will regain more per second naturally when not taking damage for X amounts of seconds (based on your recharge delay stat).

Condemn and Pillage just means you can hit whatever your cap is for the longest shield gate possible for the build in question. I still havent tested if OS provides a longer shield gate than your max shieds state on the stat screen.

edit: If OS does push you to a longer gate, modding compared to just grabbing condemn or pillage seems pointless. It would also mean that any frame besides Grendel can hit the 2.5 cap with either of those two skills.

With higher shields we have less control over how much gets taken away from a hit and augur mods/brief respite are not going to regenerate enough to hit even the 325 shields for the original 1.3 secs in some cases even with tanked efficiency. How are we supposed to recover that much shield without condemn or pillage. Perhaps you misunderstood my questions/ concerns.

Edited October 20, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

People still haven't figured out that it wasn't just the key and rolling guard contributing to SG shenanigans.   

Vazarin's Protective Sling is still the champ for endurance runs.  I just did a Disruption lvl cap this morning on Saryn without changing my build.

SG is fine.  Like I said previously, good players adapt, bad players whine

Edited October 20, 2023 by (XBOX)zThulsaDoomz

[nslay]

36 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

With higher shields we have less control over how much gets taken away from a hit and augur mods/brief respite are not going to regenerate enough to hit even the 325 shields for the original 1.3 secs in some cases even with tanked efficiency. How are we supposed to recover that much shield without condemn or pillage. Perhaps you misunderstood my questions/ concerns.

Maybe Blind Rage can help? Make your abilities cost more to make Brief Respite and Augur Mods work harder. I think a 100 energy skill will cost something like 155 energy with Blind Rage... then one Augur Mod and Brief Respite should net you 294 shields. That's pretty close. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

I'm going to post this here too incase some people have solutions or ideas. if we build more shields which DE wants, then we are im less in control of our shield gate duration.

Funnily enough, this isn't really the case, to my testing.

I wasn't interested in SG methods before, but I've actually been testing them now, and I'm finding that it's just as easy to control our Shield Gate as before. Even easier in some cases.

Why? Because we have a higher cap to work with, but the same exact builds still restore a lot of Shields, and some even work better than before.

Let me give you an example; There's a SG build that was, and still is, popular on Saryn, because you use her 50 energy Molt to not only Cleanse, Decoy and Heal, but also to refill her Shields to max under the old system.

The build used Brief Respite and a couple of Augur mods to make Molt restore around 130-140 Shields depending on what you went with. If you were using a Sentinel with two more of the Augur set equipped, and going full Blind Rage you could restore about 210 Shields. But with the Dragon Key method her shields were only around 75, so it didn't matter that you were only using Molt for the main tap-dance.

So now, with the expanded system, that 130-140 Shields actually gives you a full second of Gate duration right from the off, and every second you're not taking damage you gain more. Any further cast, which on Saryn isn't that infrequent, gives you more.

Which means that in this way you can still reliably get a specific minimum Shield Gate every time with the exact same build you had before, and if you have the means to let your shields regen for a bit, you start getting better and better SG duration than you would have had before that. A simple roll with Rolling Guard, after a Molt/Lash or Miasma cast, would have the Regen go high enough that you're exceeding the old SG easily.

Basically... now?

While the overall average SG duration is just a liiiiiittle bit shorter than the previous 1.33 seconds one you would get, you can now not waste high energy casts restoring only a tiny shield pool, and you can exceed 1.33 seconds with only a few seconds delay. Good play can see you regularly hitting the full 2.5 seconds, although not as consistently as I would like.

While builds may need to be tweaked, and I've seen people actually recommending the Shield Regen mods (because that now has been massively buffed), shield gating is still pretty solid, controlled and reliable now.

You just have to be used to knowing that a single cast will just give you X minimum with the build you have now, instead of 'will this restore me to max?' like before.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

16 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Funnily enough, this isn't really the case, to my testing.

I wasn't interested in SG methods before, but I've actually been testing them now, and I'm finding that it's just as easy to control our Shield Gate as before. Even easier in some cases.

Why? Because we have a higher cap to work with, but the same exact builds still restore a lot of Shields, and some even work better than before.

Let me give you an example; There's a SG build that was, and still is, popular on Saryn, because you use her 50 energy Molt to not only Cleanse, Decoy and Heal, but also to refill her Shields to max under the old system.

The build used Brief Respite and a couple of Augur mods to make Molt restore around 130-140 Shields depending on what you went with. If you were using a Sentinel with two more of the Augur set equipped, and going full Blind Rage you could restore about 210 Shields. But with the Dragon Key method her shields were only around 75, so it didn't matter that you were only using Molt for the main tap-dance.

So now, with the expanded system, that 130-140 Shields actually gives you a full second of Gate duration right from the off, and every second you're not taking damage you gain more. Any further cast, which on Saryn isn't that infrequent, gives you more.

Which means that in this way you can still reliably get a specific minimum Shield Gate every time with the exact same build you had before, and if you have the means to let your shields regen for a bit, you start getting better and better SG duration than you would have had before that. A simple roll with Rolling Guard, after a Molt/Lash or Miasma cast, would have the Regen go high enough that you're exceeding the old SG easily.

Basically... now?

While the overall average SG duration is just a liiiiiittle bit shorter than the previous 1.33 seconds one you would get, you can now not waste high energy casts restoring only a tiny shield pool, and you can exceed 1.33 seconds with only a few seconds delay. Good play can see you regularly hitting the full 2.5 seconds, although not as consistently as I would like.

While builds may need to be tweaked, and I've seen people actually recommending the Shield Regen mods (because that now has been massively buffed), shield gating is still pretty solid, controlled and reliable now.

You just have to be used to knowing that a single cast will just give you X minimum with the build you have now, instead of 'will this restore me to max?' like before.

Maybe I haven't played with it enough but shield gating feels alot less reliable and some of that feels completely out of our control unlike original shield gating. Meh, maybe we just have to get used to it.

Edited October 20, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[Qriist]

14 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

You refuted no argument. You didn't analyzed any of the number I gave you. You ignored everything.

If you don't know how to debate, so don't do it.

Your grasp of the English language is not nearly as strong as you think it is.