Pay plat to skip story content to access latest content-dev stream

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

Just now, Perrierite said:

Warframe's story is emotional since TSD. Story mechanicls heavily on the assumption that through customization and game-play loop players feel frames/operator/drifter truly theirs. If someone skips whole story they wouldn't have emotional attachment at all. How would they care the story then? How that leads to new player hooked to the story, and stay the game and wait for the new update?

Emotional to some. But not everyone. Don't paint every player with the same brush.

Players in the community exist where they simply do not care about this. They have zero emotional attachment. They'd rather continue killing all the mans to get the next frame/weapon.

It's completely subjective. Some care and others do not. So why restrict players from wanting to experience the game in there own way when it would have zero impact on other players that do have that connection?

It has zero impact one way or the other.

 

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

14 minutes ago, Garbor said:

The fact people think FF14/WoW Skip mechanics are the same as what's intended by DE is baffling. Warframe's core concept is power progression and the story, giving new players a way to completely get to endgame where they are either going to be carried or complain that "game too hard", and once again we might get DE dumbing down the game. I've had countless friends drop the game once they saw the quest wall, but if a skip were to be added i wouldn't enjoy having to explain every single system/mechanic up to that point because they decided they were lazy and now other players have to carry their ass.

 

And Pay2Skip also causes harm both ways in FF14/WoW if people want to keep comparing games, you get players who know nothing how mechanics/jobs work and make the experience worse for everyone, and will usually get backlash when they go on content they have absolutely no clue of what they are doing.

100%

it also makes people have less attachment to the game, since they would likely know little to no story.

[Garbor]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

Emotional to some. But not everyone. Don't paint every player with the same brush.

Players in the community exist where they simply do not care about this. They have zero emotional attachment. They'd rather continue killing all the mans to get the next frame/weapon.

It's completely subjective. Some care and others do not. So why restrict players from wanting to experience the game in there own way when it would have zero impact on other players that do have that connection?

It has zero impact one way or the other.

 

Then why are they skipping the story to do... more story?

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

7 minutes ago, Garbor said:

Warframe's core concept is power progression and the story, giving new players a way to completely get to endgame where they are either going to be carried or complain that "game too hard"

To what endgame? Most of the "hard" content would still locked behind completing the entire starchart. The story skip pack would also have gear that enables them to be ready for the more difficult content.

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Provide value in this pack by giving gear that would be earned in the course of play so they are ‘ready’ for content at a given level range

 

13 minutes ago, Garbor said:

and once again we might get DE dumbing down the game. I've had countless friends drop the game once they saw the quest wall, but if a skip were to be added i wouldn't enjoy having to explain every single system/mechanic up to that point because they decided they were lazy and now other players have to carry their ass.

Most gamemodes that would be covered by story quests aren't mechanically complex. The worst offenders would be the Zariman modes, but even those aren't complex.

[PublikDomain]

23 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Veteran players don't want to play old content when new content is out. Twisting that into a negative is a bit of a stretch.

I dunno about the rest of you, but I don't want to play old content period. It has nothing to do with new content existing. There is nothing for me on Earth or Mars.

26 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I also think the "just keep squishing" is a terrible idea. You can't squish forever, the reason TSD is so good is because you played the game for hours before it. The power progression feels good because of the time frame it takes place over. The story needs breathing room, I was worried that DE would continue to squish everything together until it was an unintelligible mess. The proposal of a skip and adding more content has me far more excited for the new player experience than making it only 10 hours. Lean into the new player experience, make it a good experience, but give an option for those that dgaf.

I agree that "just keep squishing" is a terrible idea. That's why I'm wary of a skip. A skip is the ultimate squish: it squishes the experience to zero. Instead, I think a reasonable squish down to a reasonable number of hours, with a more engaging and interesting experience throughout, that can be enjoyed by new players and their veteran friends tagging along to play with them, while also preparing these new players for the content they're rapidly approaching, would be much more effective.

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

16 minutes ago, Perrierite said:

If someone skips whole story they wouldn't have emotional attachment at all. 

I can confirm this as a fiction writer. DE is patching one hole by creating another. Not only will people have ZERO connection, they will then also pop fizzle complain that there is no story or that the game is too short. I think DE has to accept that some people are just not the target audience. You can't win 'em all. Even the classic Indiana Jones movies have a few haters. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by (XBOX)Architect Prime

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

13 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

Your statement can also be considered as subjective. 

On top all the story quest up to New War serve as Rite of Passage.

New War concludes the longest running story arc in Warframe , and with its end , new one begins with Whispers in the Walls.

The Second Dream and War Within have been out for quite some time at this point. So saying it's old/dated content is actually a matter of fact considering that what Warframe is now in 2023 is completely different from when TSD/WW were released.

And any feeling regarding them one way or the other dosent change that.

What's subjective is an individuals value and emotional connection to it. So let's stop putting "emotional value" on content for everyone where some players exist that couldn't be bothered with it and would rather want to continue playing the game the way that they want.

And saying that these quests are old/dated isn't attacking them, or anyone's opinion on them. We're many years removed from when they came out and our own individual experience with it varies.

It's not really a "Rite of Passage" either for a player that would rather skip it entirely. If they don't care for it, they don't care for it. It's that simple.

Edited October 27, 2023 by (XBOX)Cram Duahcim

[schilds]

18 minutes ago, (XBOX)Itz2Cat said:

More quality content, faster. In my opinion that's a fair trade off. 

Debatable (and probably more of a dev time/resource management issue). More quality, maybe, but slower. There used to be more frequent, smaller, operations with a bit of shared story that advanced the timeline for the entire player base. Now we get less frequent but much chunkier updates that advance the story more in the style of a single player game. Game moved (roughly speaking) from "co-op that you can solo", to "solo that you can co-op".

Those are not the comparisons I wanted to address here though:

With the "live universe" model, new players were *automatically* caught up in terms of the story (though they still needed access to the star chart and appropriate gear depending on where the operation was and the level of difficulty) but at the cost of having missed all the backstory prior to the time they joined.

With the "cinematic quest" model, new players don't miss out on backstory, at the cost of ... having to go through all of it.

 

DE *could* have "saved" operations as mini quests with some kind of revisit/replay mechanic, but instead chose to change the whole model and are now trying to fix the opposite problem with a skip mechanic.

Edited October 27, 2023 by schilds

[Cerikus]

16 minutes ago, Garbor said:

The fact people think FF14/WoW Skip mechanics are the same as what's intended by DE is baffling. Warframe's core concept is power progression and the story, giving new players a way to completely get to endgame where they are either going to be carried or complain that "game too hard", and once again we might get DE dumbing down the game. I've had countless friends drop the game once they saw the quest wall, but if a skip were to be added i wouldn't enjoy having to explain every single system/mechanic up to that point because they decided they were lazy and now other players have to carry their ass.

 

And Pay2Skip also causes harm both ways in FF14/WoW if people want to keep comparing games, you get players who know nothing how mechanics/jobs work and make the experience worse for everyone, and will usually get backlash when they go on content they have absolutely no clue of what they are doing.

I am not entirely sure if this is 100% correct, because Warframe has little to none actual mechanics. Niche peripheral content like Eidolons is not relevant, because the core gameplay of Warframe is indisputably: aim and shot, hold E or press 1-4 for death of everything. Most players don't ever get to Steel path and if a player has basic videogame knowledge and experience they will have no issue being useful in normal mission, where most players reside.

The real "challange" of Warframe is knowing how stuff works and how to make a builds and let me tell you, vast majority of players don't know any of that. Most people just copy builds from youtube or overframe. We ALREADY have crowds od players that are getting carried in "endgame", because that's how it is, but luckily in Warframe having players to carry is a non-issue, because there are no mechanics that can wipe out a raid, if one person fails to play their role... 

There are plenty good arguments against pay2skip, but "it will allow players to get to endgame" is simply false and disingenuous, especially since "endgame" is SP and the story skip would get you nowhere near steel path.

[hawkdidi69]

Hello,

I’m creating this post to reflect on constructive ideas only, so the devs may have usefull data on how to proceed with the topic of “skiping history” for the new palyers.

I explain where i had pick up the idea, and after i will tell you my idea.

I’ve played to SWTOR and they had a similar predicament and they had an interesting way to proceed. They gave a new character to play with and it had the required level and equipment to do the extension. Once the extension was completed by the player, they got to keep this new character that would stay high level but would get level down back to the level of the beginner quests during them (for example, the character is lvl 75, it would go back to lvl 10 to do the lvl 10quest and then go back to level 75 at the end of it).

Those are my propositions for warframe :

-          To be able to chose between a farmed warframe or a temporary warframe (same as for Duviri paradox)

o   The farmed warframe must have all the requirement to participate to the extension

o   The temporary warframe would have the minimum rerquirements to do the extension. Once done, the warframe and its equipments (like the railjack and the archwing) would be locked until the player would catch up with the story.

Hope it would be help you in the futur.

 

I m french, so i'm sorry for my bad english.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

11 minutes ago, Garbor said:

Then why are they skipping the story to do... more story?

Some people just want to farm The next Prime, or new warframe/weapon. They don't want to be bothered  by a quest to continue to do the thing that they want to do.

If that's how they want to experience the game then cool, have fun. Are you going to tell someone how they have fun in warframe? 

Edited October 27, 2023 by (XBOX)Cram Duahcim

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

4 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Most players don't ever get to Steel path

Is there a statistic? Not of accounts, but of accounts with actual hours.  Changed my mind. I believe you. Need the core audience AND the casuals for different reasons. They both have utility. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by (XBOX)Architect Prime

[DrBorris]

21 minutes ago, (XBOX)Architect Prime said:

The twisting of what I said and trying to over analyze it into a drama-posting oblivion that goes on for 30 pages is not my interest. I'm here to give constructive feedback that's on-topic. I will not respond to further to bait. However, I'm happy to talk about the actual subject-matter. 

Okay, so rather than talk about how you think the new experience should be better as that is off topic, why do you think of DE's assertion that there are new players that will never play the game no matter how good the experience is? The issue DE is attempting to resolve is the perceived negative results of new players not being able to play the advertised content that their friends are playing. Rather than play a hundred hours of other stuff they choose to not bother. To rectify this they are looking to allow new players to immediately play new content (the method by which this happens is tbd).

Do you think this is not a proper interpretation of new players? Is the proposed "skip" solution full of too many negative repercussions? Maybe another angle on it I'm missing as I am biased (a bit) in favor of a "skip" option?

 

7 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I dunno about the rest of you, but I don't want to play old content period. It has nothing to do with new content existing. There is nothing for me on Earth or Mars.

I agree that "just keep squishing" is a terrible idea. That's why I'm wary of a skip. A skip is the ultimate squish: it squishes the experience to zero. Instead, I think a reasonable squish down to a reasonable number of hours, with a more engaging and interesting experience throughout, that can be enjoyed by new players and their veteran friends tagging along to play with them, while also preparing these new players for the content they're rapidly approaching, would be much more effective.

This is why I proposed a split progression approach. Let a new player jump to new content with the Duviri weapon/gear rental system. Then have the "real" progression path stay open as a thing they can and must eventually go back to. Once the two paths meet they merge. I am pretty strongly against deleting 10 years of story, I think this preserves the new player experience while also giving a potential hook into that experience. Whispers of the Wall may be overwhelming for a new player, but it might also be the catalyst to get them invested into seeing how they got there.

Edited October 27, 2023 by DrBorris

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

5 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

 Most players don't ever get to Steel path path.

Most players also don't care about Steel Path....

Some care for it.

Some care for the story.

Others don't care for quests.

And some care about all of it. That's just how it is. There's so many aspects of individuals priorities.

Edited October 27, 2023 by (XBOX)Cram Duahcim

[Jabett]

2 hours ago, Mr.NoodleHair said:

Can't new players already play with their friends by doing normal star chart missions?

Instead of adding pay to skip, why not just streamline the older quests? Introduce them earlier in the starchart 🤷‍♂️

 

They are streamlining old quests. The best thing for them to do would be to release a cinematic, but a really good one, summarising the whole main universe story (no continuity stuff or w/e it was called), then have the option for newer players to go through a curated list of main story missions to get to whispers in the wall, but not charge for it.

[bad4youLT]

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

The Second Dream and War Within have been out for quite some time at this point. So saying it's old/dated content is actually a matter of fact considering that what Warframe is now in 2023 is completely different from when TSD/WW were released.

And any feeling regarding them one way or the other dosent change that.

11 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

And saying that these quests are old/dated isn't attacking them, or anyone's opinion on them. We're many years removed from when they came out and our own individual experience with it varies.

To a new player who knows nothing of the game , content being "old" isn't even an argument as said player will experience said "old" content for the first time.

This is like saying "yeah that game is old, its not worth playing because of its age"

 

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

What's subjective is an individuals value and emotional connection to it. So let's stop putting "emotional value" on content for everyone where some players exist that couldn't be bothered with it and would rather want to continue playing the game the way that they want.

This is such none argument , I can easily counter by saying the exact same thing but changing few letters and still get same result / argument

"What's subjective is an individual value and emotional connection. So lets put "emotional value" on content for everyone , there are some players that couldn't be bothered with it and would rather want to continue playing the game the way that they want"

 

 

[Jabett]

6 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Okay, so rather than talk about how you think the new experience should be better as that is off topic, why do you think of DE's assertion that there are new players that will never play the game no matter how good the experience is? The issue DE is attempting to resolve is the perceived negative results of new players not being able to play the advertised content that their friends are playing. Rather than play a hundred hours of other stuff they choose to not bother. To rectify this they are looking to allow new players to immediately play new content (the method by which this happens is tbd).

Do you think this is not a proper interpretation of new players? Is the proposed "skip" solution full of too many negative repercussions? Maybe another angle on it I'm missing as I am biased (a bit) in favor of a "skip" option?

 

This is why I proposed a split progression approach. Let a new player jump to new content with the Duviri weapon/gear rental system. Then have the "real" progression path stay open as a thing they can and must eventually go back to. Once the two paths meet they merge. I am pretty strongly against deleting 10 years of story, I think this preserves the new player experience while also giving a potential hook into that experience. Whispers of the Wall may be overwhelming for a new player, but it might also be the catalyst to get them invested into seeing how they got there.

"Hey I am going to play this game that is narrative driven, but I am going to pay money to skip the narrative." Aside from this, it is a gateway into more malicious monetisation. DE may not do it on purpose, but they can and have missed the mark on multiple occasions. This is not something to just allow lightly.

[(XBOX)Hellsteeth30]

As a newish player who recently "earned his stripes", so to speak, by completing the usual "hurdles".  I'm largely ambivalent.

Regular content outside of SP is fairly simple, however there are some sticking points with the story missions.  New War of course, no need to discuss that, been done.  

War Within had two bits certain people struggled with, the hide from lasers bit and the maw bit.

Neither you could build your way out of.

Split New War into chapters so people get a break, or give them a save and exit back to the main game.

A solution however, is offer an easier mode for those who struggle, harder one for those who want it.

It's incredibly easy to run out of stuff you want to do in Warframe, skipping stuff will bring that on quicker.

More than enough resources out there to help with regular WF.

Anyway it's the farm that scares most newbies off, not the difficulty.  Skipping also has the side effect of annoying the Devs who built and designed the stuff too.

 

[schilds]

I would like to see DE first address:

• The *actual* new player experience that covers *the entire star chart* - for which new players are provided very little context for anything. The "new players experience" was never merely about an intro cinematic and itty bitty tutorial quest.
• Continuity issues with existing story (e.g. poor ol' Alad V) by decoupling time-line progression from planetary and power progression. For example, some quests should be accessed earlier with taxi-ing to later planets. Alad's timeline is one. Vor's Prize is another, which originally took place over multiple planets and probably still should (and could if quests taxi-d players to later planets for a peek ahead) - rather than the current retcon to be entirely on Earth.

Then they can think about pay to skip :-P.

I feel this is a self-created problem with how DE have chosen to organise and couple everything linearly: star chart progression, power progression, story progression, mechanics progression (e.g. operator, mech, rail jack requirements in some missions) etc.

Edited October 27, 2023 by schilds

[AshRangerX]

Tbh I think any kind of content skip is going to mark the beginning of a drastic descent in community quality. If you don't want to play Warframe, don't. Go play another game. The time investment this game requires is one of the biggest reasons the community is so tightly knit. We're committed, invested. We've seen friends fall to the grind and foes fall to the blade. We are the few and the dedicated. We are the Persistence, and we are proud.

[carje]

I'm personally scared of the repercussions a pay-to-skip bad implementation would have on long-term player retention. For me, Warframe lore was something that drew me in, behind the movement and the power fantasy. Reducing the emotional investment (time and effort spent) in your character, Warframe, or Tenno that the lore creates would decrease players' connection to the game.

If DE implements a pay-to-skip story and it results in poor player retention, it will accelerate Warframe's decline, which I believe none of us want.

Now, I think that if they implement a pay-to-skip option, the skipping should condense 10 years of Warframe lore, which players have to play through. For example, a new player invited by a veteran player (with a significant amount of playtime) pays for this theoretical pay-to-skip option with the objective of playing the latest content with the veteran player. The new player should meet the requirements to complete a minimum of 24 hours of story-related gameplay (average time it took me to complete some campaings or storys in other games). in wich the veteran player should be allowed to help to some extent. The purpose of this is for the new player to develop an attachment to their Warframe or Tenno, increasing the chances that the new player keeps returning to the game. This would also give the new player a chance to become familiar with basic Warframe knowledge and mechanics.

Imagine if Warframe were a game with a conventional linear campaign like Halo, where you never received any rewards that could affect your performance while completing the campaign. In the case of Warframe, story progression and performance are closely tied to equipment, so this pay-to-skip option should allow the new player to unlock most, if not all, equipment related to main story quest progression. If pay-to-skip results in a shorter version of the lore, the rewards you receive from progressing through this shorter story should be either locked or degraded in some way until the newer player replays the full story.

Of course, this degraded equipment can be moded to be as effective as any other normal equipment. Perhaps, like a gilded zaw or kitgun, they are usable without being gilded, but you can't change their appearance, and their performance is less than ideal. However, you can either pay more platinum to upgrade them (similar to zaws or kitguns) or replay the full story.

 

this is all my personal biased opinion

[DrBorris]

12 minutes ago, Jabett said:

"Hey I am going to play this game that is narrative driven, but I am going to pay money to skip the narrative." Aside from this, it is a gateway into more malicious monetisation. DE may not do it on purpose, but they can and have missed the mark on multiple occasions. This is not something to just allow lightly.

As someone very invested in Warframe's narrative, I would never call it a narrative driven game. Come on, we spend maybe 1% of our time doing things that affect the narrative. Furthermore, some players really don't care. It hurts any time I talk to them, I personally don't get it, but there are definitely people here just to make big number and turn Grineer into goo. Warframe is a fantastic game for such people, I don't think we should gate-keep them because we think the story is good.

And I am also wary of slippery slope arguments. A slippery slope isn't actually saying anything is wrong with what is proposed, but rather that it will get worse. I'm not sure how you could listen to Reb's explanation and think "ah yes, this is a slope to bad monetization." There are very real concerns with a skip, things that I think could be destructive to the game. When discussing an issue I think we should be discussing the issue at hand, not the phantom issue in the future.

 

Edit: I have a bit of extra bias that I think I need to get out. I really, really want DE to expand on the early game story. I want them to go back and do a proper retelling of the events from Sling Stone to the Mutalist Strain. This... this would be a terrible idea right now, adding potentially another 50 hours to the new player path will only exacerbate the issues Reb raised. A temporary skip to new content, then giving players the option to go back and play through the new player experience, is a best of both worlds for me.

Edited October 27, 2023 by DrBorris

[schilds]

Clans would be a perfect place to give new players a bit of a boost. Let clans build an arsenal/armoury that new players can use to join in on later stuff and play with more experienced players, while still allowing them to collect their own stuff in their own time. Maybe the star chart in a dojo should have its own progression that provides access to star chart locations for anyone in the clan.

Then DE could monetize ease of acquiring arsenal and observatory components :-P.

Edited October 27, 2023 by schilds

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

23 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

To a new player who knows nothing of the game , content being "old" isn't even an argument as said player will experience said "old" content for the first time.

This is like saying "yeah that game is old, its not worth playing because of its age"

And that new player might have Zero interest in engaging in the main line quest. That's there individual decision to have. And if they want to skip it: Let them.

It has zero impact on anyone else who wants to have an emotional connection if that's what they are looking for. 

Did I say at any time that it wasn't  worth playing at all? Second Dream released in 2015. If players want the option to skip it because they don't want to: That's there decision. 

Second Dreams been out since December of 2015. It's not a negative to say it's old/dated. Because it is. 

23 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

This is such none argument , I can easily counter by saying the exact same thing but changing few letters and still get same result / argument

"What's subjective is an individual value and emotional connection. So lets put "emotional value" on content for everyone , there are some players that couldn't be bothered with it and would rather want to continue playing the game the way that they want"

It's totally the argument. Some players couldn't be bothered to have this experience at all, because that's not what they're into.

Now me personally: I enjoy the Quests. But I'm not emotionally tied to them. Now if you and others are: Great, you found it to be this way. But I certainly didn't or engage with it on an emotional level.

Everyone experienced these moments differently. It's a Main-Iine Quest/Story. Nothing more. What or how you feel about it is %100 subjective. 

But I'd hardly call Warframe a narrative driven game overall. And if people want to skip these moments then they absolutely should be allowed to do so.

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by (XBOX)Cram Duahcim

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

6 minutes ago, schilds said:

Clans would be a perfect place to give new players a bit of a boost. Let clans build an arsenal/armoury that new players can use to join in on later stuff and play with more experienced players, while still allowing them to collect their own stuff in their own time.

I mean thats what the labs are used for. They could use a boost in this regard.

And if players don't want to engage with the games quests/lore, you could place the quest items in here for them to unlock vs having to engage with the main-line quest if they choose to skip it.