Nora's Mix Vol. 4 Ending + Vol. 5 Is Now Live!

[TARINunit9]

13 hours ago, Voltage said:

DE don't have the time or manpower for constantly upkeeping and maintaining old content. Nightwave should have always been automated from the get go and not even be seasonal.

Was Nightwave always doomed to go the way of sorties? Yes. Doesn't mean it wasn't Glassmaker who killed them

Glassmaker was the reality check to actually prove you correct, and ahead of schedule at that. I honestly think they could have kept things going at the pace of Arlo's Light for a lot longer -- not indefinitely, but another three seasons or so -- if it wasn't for Glassmaker burning it all out at once

[Voltage]

9 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Was Nightwave always doomed to go the way of sorties? Yes. Doesn't mean it wasn't Glassmaker who killed them

Glassmaker was the reality check to actually prove you correct, and ahead of schedule at that. I honestly think they could have kept things going at the pace of Arlo's Light for a lot longer -- not indefinitely, but another three seasons or so -- if it wasn't for Glassmaker burning it all out at once

I think the reality check and proof that this entire system was doomed was the first Intermission after the very first season.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

I think the reality check and proof that this entire system was doomed was the first Intermission after the very first season.

Ok at that point you're just being unreasonable. Let's step away from the original sin of Warframe for a moment: Short intermissions between projects to do pre-production on the next are seriously undervalued in the business world. And the first intermission was SHORT, less than a month. That's not stalling for time, that's just working

[(PSN)SpiritTheOkami]

Will the Saturn Six Syandana get added as a reward? Like volume 4 has the attachments, next one should have the Syandana surely.

[(PSN)rexis12]

If DE didnt want Nightwave to be Intermission, maybe they shouldn't have large month long plots with lore heavy character and world building.

Why have a Grineer Amalgamated with Sentient Tech that moves forward the New War and Alad V plot, when you could have easily had a Steel Meridian recruitment plot where the rescue targets end up being Grineer and you get extra goodies for helping them.

Why have a freaking New Hive Mind for Infested with Arlo, when you could have just made that Nightwave Infested clearing or saving and that be simple little stories of various factions being saved from Infested.

Why, instead of having a #*!%ING OROKIN CHARACTER, didn't you just have random Syndicate minions.

Like you guys 'planned' for Nightwave to be 'Small Stories' but small stories is S#&$ like what Genshin Impact did with the hangout systems.

Not TIME LIMITED EVENTS WHERE AN OROKIN WAS REVEALED TO BE #*!%ING ALIVE.

[ceVna]

You, the dev team, talked about some monetization in your recent Dev stream; how about you make Nora's Mix a battlepass system with the normal free rewards and an OPTIONAL paid one; it doesn't have to be over the top; and when i say "paid" i mean with real money; you can even go with 3 types of battle pass options: free, with platinum and the paid one. Of course, with rewards reflecting the type of "battlepass" you choose; the free one should be accessible to everybody still. Nora has given us so much for free, why not make her earn something for herself in return?

Another thing: make it span throughout a full month; making the real money option so that if you started late in the month you get all the rewards until that point; also, would be nice to "buy" levels on the battle pass with platinum or even with cred offerings.

https://imgur.com/C5BQt2O

Edited November 2, 2023 by ceVna
Typos and screenshot

[GenBalefore]

i feel that every week needs to have new things that r offered for nightwave. otherwise doing this just becomes pointless once u recieve all the main rewards and get the items that u want.

[BR31]

A lot of people are too salty about the NW, mainly about that it resets so seldom. 
 
It should probably reset a bit faster, but imo it doesn't need big story content that often. 

Just some new mods, random enemy appearing in missions from time to time with a bit of a flavour.

That's good enough and won't take much dev time. 

[Voltage]

5 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Ok at that point you're just being unreasonable. Let's step away from the original sin of Warframe for a moment: Short intermissions between projects to do pre-production on the next are seriously undervalued in the business world. And the first intermission was SHORT, less than a month. That's not stalling for time, that's just working

How is this unreasonable? The intermission between is the length of the season already running. If you need to force players to spend some FOMO currency to then wait for an intermission with little substance, to then wait for Season 2, you're already posting a red flag. Intermission 1 was not long or a huge deal, but it was definitely the writing on the wall.

[C486]

Oof, Duviri centric Nightwave. Well, think I'm missing the odd resource or two if nothing else.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

6 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Ok at that point you're just being unreasonable. Let's step away from the original sin of Warframe for a moment: Short intermissions between projects to do pre-production on the next are seriously undervalued in the business world. And the first intermission was SHORT, less than a month. That's not stalling for time, that's just working

Expand  

How is this unreasonable? The intermission between is the length of the season already running.

Because you didn't read my post: the first intermission was NOT the length of a full season, it was only three weeks. That's not a FOMO trap, that's downtime

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Because you didn't read my post: the first intermission was NOT the length of a full season, it was only three weeks. That's not a FOMO trap, that's downtime

The FOMO trap is the function of seasonal currency and time-limited store options. We are finally getting some of these augments and cosmetics back, but it's still been years. The fact intermission 1 only lasted 3 weeks is completely irrelevant.

[Zedar451]

On 2023-11-01 at 2:04 PM, Bluebeardedfish said:

intermission... again... Why not just overhaul it and make it a permanent standing shop that adds new things occasionally. kinda not worth doing for copy paste content

That's...literally what we have now.

 

You people.

[Voltage]

6 minutes ago, Zedar451 said:

That's...literally what we have now.

 

You people.

It's not. We've been through 6, soon 7 intermissions with over half a dozen different FOMO currencies. A permanently rotating vendor shop where challenges just give Creds with no seasons, ranks, or downtime would be a massive improvement to what we have now and also gives DE the freedom to add new rewards whenever they have the chance. In the worst case scenario they could focus on other new content with no pressure to return to Nightwave, and it would just be what it originally was supposed to be: a better version of the Alerts system.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Voltage

[TARINunit9]

15 minutes ago, Voltage said:

The FOMO trap is the function of seasonal currency and time-limited store options. We are finally getting some of these augments and cosmetics back, but it's still been years. The fact intermission 1 only lasted 3 weeks is completely irrelevant.

All I see is you trying to justify your (completely justified) hatred of one problem with imaginary or exaggerated criticisms of another problem

Yes, Season Passes are a serious thing with real problems and I do not blame your hatred of them. But your hatred is so severe it's spilling over into the "episodic storytelling" part of Nightwave to the point you are applying criticisms that I definitely don't believe are real.

Basically my criticisms of season passes and my criticisms of DE's episodic storytelling are completely separate. Why? Because I believe it's possible to make a season pass that's acceptable. Not inherently evil. Worth doing.

If you don't agree, well I'm not going to say that's wrong. But I am going to call you a hatred-blinded zealot if you start bleeding your hatred into separate problems just to keep the passion burning.

So yes, the fact Intermission 1 was only three weeks is irrelevant... but not in a way that helps make your point. (That being this point:)

1 minute ago, Voltage said:

It's not. We've been through 6, soon 7 intermissions with 7 different FOMO currencies. A permanently rotating vendor shop where challenges just give Creds with no seasons, ranks, or downtime would be a massive improvement to what we have now and also gives DE the freedom to add new rewards whenever they have the chance. In the worst case scenario they could focus on new content and it would just be what it originally was supposed to be: a better version of the Alerts system.

 

[Voltage]

6 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

All I see is you trying to justify your (completely justified) hatred of one problem with imaginary or exaggerated criticisms of another problem

Yes, Season Passes are a serious thing with real problems and I do not blame your hatred of them. But your hatred is so severe it's spilling over into the "episodic storytelling" part of Nightwave to the point you are applying criticisms that I definitely don't believe are real.

Basically my criticisms of season passes and my criticisms of DE's episodic storytelling are completely separate. Why? Because I believe it's possible to make a season pass that's acceptable. Not inherently evil. Worth doing.

If you don't agree, well I'm not going to say that's wrong. But I am going to call you a hatred-blinded zealot if you start bleeding your hatred into separate problems just to keep the passion burning.

So yes, the fact Intermission 1 was only three weeks is irrelevant... but not in a way that helps make your point. (That being this point:)

The storytelling is entirely separate from how Nightwave is going. No where am I asking for less or no episodic additions or even criticizing them at all. The only thing I ever disliked about the story content were the scheduled enemy spawns that could pump your rank way higher than someone else even if they did all the challenges (as I am someone who does all my challenges for maximum rank, in the off chance they add a cosmetic or way to represent Nightwave participation). I would very much appreciate new side stories that focused on characters that could definitely be fleshed out more (since DE is often adding new characters and hardly ever building off very old ones besides the select few "main story" characters). 

All my feedback in this thread is purely in regards to how it's going and the issues we've arrived at. If I wanted to go on a blind hatred spree, I would be bringing up the leaked "Act Boosters" that DE said essentially "oops, you weren't supposed to see that we actually considered monetizing Nightwave progress". I'm only criticizing the failed nature of intermissions and the structure of Nightwave never looking sustainable (which was hinted at [not proven yet] when we saw Intermission 1).

What I am bringing up here and quoting comments on is that Nightwave is failing its objective, and this is completely unrelated to the nice stories they've added in their "real seasons". This system was originally meant to replace Alerts and Alert rewards, a system that was heavily punishing for someone looking for specific items. They moved to a very fair take on the battle pass system so many games have adopted (and this is still a very fair system given the leeway the player has in what challenges they choose to do). With that said, there are still glaring issues that aren't actually super hard to address, but it would mean restructuring Nightwave purely for the betterment of those engaging with it and not to squeeze engagement metrics or include any FOMO (like we see with some of these new Duviri challenges and the continuous addition of exclusive weapon augments).

Nightwave has effectively become one in the same with Riven Mod Disposition towards how players are served "updates" to it. The core fundamentals of the system are completely fine, but there is an unnecessary amount of manual upkeep that is taking place which serves no good purpose to the alternative.

What Nightwave should be is an automated vendor that a player earns a currency for by completing rotating challenges to buy rewards in a rotating fashion. That is as far as the time-gating should reach. Reward "refreshments" would occur on some kind of determined schedule to interest players to return and make sure there isn't years between item availability (just like Baro Ki'teer). While this automated system is running, DE has the chance (whenever they have the resources available) to release a story-told Nightwave Series that would have its own reward track (separate from the automated vendor system that replaces Alerts) and progressional scenes to further the story. Once the story is concluded, the story is visible through the "Tune In" page, and after a pre-determined amount of time (let's say 90 days to match a Prime Access), the themed rewards would be pushed into the rotating (and always available) vendor shop. There shouldn't be seasons, there shouldn't be ranks, players who show up later in Nightwave shouldn't feel rushed before it ends, and there shouldn't be Creds that have an infinite number of variations that all expire.

I think you're misreading my concerns as somehow attached to disliking every part of Nightwave at the same time. My earlier comments merely eluded to the writing on the wall that this system was flawed from the start and learned none of the lessons of Sortie Seasons. There's a reason the infamous "Sortie Token System" Forums thread was being referenced from The Second Dream right up until The War Within. The base concerns and propositions were exactly what Nightwave should have offered, not partially implemented with a twist to include unnecessary FOMO and manual revision which makes the system feel like a drag and wasted potential more often than not.

We're both on the same team here. Hopefully that clears it up. I didn't mean to come off as dismissive, argumentative, or disagreeing to your points, I only wanted to add the notion of the issues Nightwave has being present well before Glassmaker. Glassmaker received fair criticism at the time, but like most things in Warframe (honestly many other games too), many players only look at a current issue in isolation or on the surface. Glassmaker had some rough edges yes, but most of the criticism it received were core problems with Nightwave itself, not the substance of the Glassmaker season as a story addition. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Voltage

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, Voltage said:

I think you're misreading my concerns as somehow attached to disliking every part of Nightwave at the same time

I was seeing you posting hatred of season passes alongside criticisms of DE's attention span

2 minutes ago, Voltage said:

My earlier comments merely eluded to the writing on the wall that this system was flawed from the start and learned none of the lessons of Sortie Seasons.

And I fully disagree but for weird reasons

I knew damn well we were going to lose Nightwave stories eventually. Sortie seasons indeed, along with Prime Trailers and Synthesis stories. But all of the warning signs were external to Nightwave itself. Because Nightwave started strong! Three months of Saturn Six followed by a month of Intermission? That's perfectly reasonable, the kind of pacing that got them to at least nine Sortie seasons and ten Synthesis stories.

It wasn't until Glassmaker that we knew "oh, this is it, Nightwave dies here." 

[Primed_Kryztal]

Another story act Nightwave, please? Thank you! :)

[Voltage]

24 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I knew damn well we were going to lose Nightwave stories eventually. Sortie seasons indeed, along with Prime Trailers and Synthesis stories. But all of the warning signs were external to Nightwave itself. Because Nightwave started strong! Three months of Saturn Six followed by a month of Intermission? That's perfectly reasonable, the kind of pacing that got them to at least nine Sortie seasons and ten Synthesis stories.

It wasn't until Glassmaker that we knew "oh, this is it, Nightwave dies here." 

That's pretty fair. I can see how this is the average interpretation for most people. For me, I had the same reaction, but when there was absolutely no Nightwave for 3 weeks (24 days exactly) between Season 1 and Intermission 1, and then added an intermission at all before jumping into Season 2. That is where my "proof this was doomed" came from. You said this was unreasonable, but was it reasonable to give players who need Alert rewards 24 days of nothing? What about the fact that it took until 2023 just to see Efficient Beams return? Nightwave isn't absolutely better than Alerts, it's only partially. The negative feelings that a 2:43 AM Vauban Neuroptics Alert brought to a player are still present in Nightwave, which is a major failure.

I've never believed Nightwave was "dead", but I knew it failed its core objective since that moment. I do enjoy Warframe quests/stories, but I don't rank that higher in importance than what the update does for the game systematically. It's absolutely clear that Nightwave's core criticisms and the stories they brought are separate discussions, but the resources and deliverance of that content is intertwined between the two. The reason I have an assertive distaste for battle passes (even with how tame Nightwave is) is how it tarnishes what the actual good bits are that it brings.

A good comparison to this is Veilbreaker. Archon Hunts and Veilbreaker are nice story continuations from The New War, but that experience is degraded from the failings of the Archon Shard system and the structure of Kahl's Garrison. The same happened to Nightwave. Glassmaker gets the most flak for the failings within Nightwave itself, but those issues were present in The Emissary and Wolf of Saturn Six as well.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Voltage

[TARINunit9]

12 minutes ago, Voltage said:

but was it reasonable to give players who need Alert rewards 24 days of nothing?

It... Wasn't nothing. We still got challenges to run and rewards to earn during it

Otherwise I don't 100% agree with the rest of the comment but I can't 100% disagree either

[Hexerin]

They need to bring back the Warframe 1999 weapon skins from the previous Nightwave to the shop, so that those who couldn't make it in time can obtain that content.

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

It... Wasn't nothing. We still got challenges to run and rewards to earn during it

Between a season and an intermission, there was a period of no Nightwave whatsoever. The 24 days I mentioned was between Season 1 and Intermission 1. Nothing was active. They've done this every Nightwave transition by having an amount of time with no Nightwave at all, which is crushing towards a newer player who needs the valuable items offered or key progression items like Nitain Extract. 

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

Between a season and an intermission, there was a period of no Nightwave whatsoever. The 24 days I mentioned was between Season 1 and Intermission 1. Nothing was active. They've done this every Nightwave transition by having an amount of time with no Nightwave at all, which is crushing towards a newer player who needs the valuable items offered or key progression items like Nitain Extract. 

Oh that week. I remember that. 

They always make a point to have a 128 hour alert that rewards Nitain of that ever happens, but I do agree that the optics of needing to have that undermines the image of "replace alerts and be better than alerts"

[masterdamnit]

Ceremonial Evolution: Evolve any Incarnon weapon in-mission 5 times

Is this a single incarnon weapon or just 5 evolutions? For example do I need to evolve laetum 5 times itself, or can I evolve laetum, hate, and felarx a total of 5 times between them? 

Edited November 3, 2023 by masterdamnit
Punctuation

[Sean]

Can we just go back to Alerts? Just make some permanent alerts that can give Nitain and other useful resources.

 

Nightwave just feels like a failed experiment. Just about every issue people predicted for Nightwave has come true.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Sean