I want to fight max level enemies.

[RichardKam]

On the contrary, DE should limit all endless missions to, say, 1 hour. Or 3 cycles of AABC rotation. Or something like that. So that people won't be able to reach level cap enemies in any missions. Once you hit the end point, enemy stop spawning and you are forced to extract. 

And then put level cap enemies in simulacrum only.

[VibingCat]

3 hours ago, RichardKam said:

On the contrary, DE should limit all endless missions to, say, 1 hour. Or 3 cycles of AABC rotation. Or something like that. So that people won't be able to reach level cap enemies in any missions. Once you hit the end point, enemy stop spawning and you are forced to extract. 

And then put level cap enemies in simulacrum only.

Ehm, why? 🤔

[SneakyErvin]

@Silligooseif you wanna continue the talk on P2W we can do so here. If you can keep on topic that is and not bring up unrelated discussions, and quote yourself when people decide to leave your of topic subjects out of their quotes. No need to start blasting PMs.

So new versus old is now also P2W? Knowing which frames to farm versus not know is now P2W? Since what you describe is always in WF after 10 years as a game when it comes to new and old players, knowledge vs lack of it and so on. And win is subjective. The old and more geared player does not win, just as the forward, goalie, defensive player does not win over his team mates in a match, since it is a team/group effort and the goal is to win over the other team or in the case of WF complete the objective for the benefit of the group. And that is what happens when the old and more progressed player wipes everything out, the team achieves the goal and completes the objective. And all are rewarded equally in the end of the mission. Just as the advantage of the old and highly geared player extends to the whole group, since every player in the group can start the next mission faster, so the newer player will in return benefit from progressing faster together with the older player. Something that the older player may have never benefited from, since he might have always been the old play due to being a veteran from the starting days of the game.

If I would for instance play with a newer player in say SP, the newer player would benefit from things I never had the chance to benefit from, like grouping with veterans in SP to gain mastery, or group with players that had access to the weapons and frames we have no for certain missions. None of this is however locked behind payment in any form, so really no idea why you even brought up old versus new, since that is soley tied to progression itself. I mean, the new player cant even pay to get to the point of the old player, which is also a thing that talks against the idea of WF being P2W. Since in a P2W setting the new player would be able to buy that "advantage" of the old player. But no matter what a new player does, he wont have access to shards, he wont have access to helminth, he wont have access to nemesis weapons, he wont have access to kitguns, he wont have access to incarnons and so on and so on.

[4thBro]

My video follow-up:

 

Additional response:

In regards to rewards and efficiency...

I don't think the whole picture was really looked at.

 

Let's say level cap enemies gave you a +10% reward bonus compared to, say, regular Steel Path.

This doesn't now magically make it the optimal farm. This is a short-sighted response.

 

Against regular Steel Path enemies, you can almost certainly kill them (aka farm speed) MUCH faster. Not only that, but MUCH more care free, no matter who you are or what build you're playing. This adds or subtracts to overall efficiency. And, guaranteed, something as low as +10% rewards for level cap will still keep it from being the most optimal.

[RichardKam]

8小时前 , 4thBro 说:

My video follow-up:

 

> highest level in game is kuva survival

I......am sure you are right......

2023/11/16 PM1点26分 , VibingCat 说:

Ehm, why? 🤔

So that people won't use SP level cap disruption / endless / whatever as a bench mark for everything. 

You need shield gating to survive any SP mission. Blah blah blah weapons and frames are MR fodder because they can't kill stuff in high level contents. This is the only build you need for Ash / Revenant / ________ (fill in the blank) not because it is fun, but because it can handle lv9999 demolyst. We keep hearing all these non-sense simply because the game allows people to stay for 3 hours in one mission with no extra benefit ie AABC rotation, and that is a mistake. And somehow most of the community keep hyper-focused at that tiny part of the game and think it is all that matter.

SP endurance missions are fine, but DE should put a limit there. 

"It is DE's fault for making the game too easy. Level cap mission is the only meaningful game mode in the entire game."

Then go to simulacrum to pop 20x lvl 9999 corrupt eximus heavy gunners to flex the muscle. DE can let people keep automatically spawning 100x lvl 99999 enemies with 10x SP modifier in simulacrum and I don't care, as long as they are isolated from the main game. 

[VibingCat]

2 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

> highest level in game is kuva survival

I......am sure you are right......

So that people won't use SP level cap disruption / endless / whatever as a bench mark for everything. 

You need shield gating to survive any SP mission. Blah blah blah weapons and frames are MR fodder because they can't kill stuff in high level contents. This is the only build you need for Ash / Revenant / ________ (fill in the blank) not because it is fun, but because it can handle lv9999 demolyst. We keep hearing all these non-sense simply because the game allows people to stay for 3 hours in one mission with no extra benefit ie AABC rotation, and that is a mistake. And somehow most of the community keep hyper-focused at that tiny part of the game and think it is all that matter.

SP endurance missions are fine, but DE should put a limit there. 

"It is DE's fault for making the game too easy. Level cap mission is the only meaningful game mode in the entire game."

Then go to simulacrum to pop 20x lvl 9999 corrupt eximus heavy gunners to flex the muscle. DE can let people keep automatically spawning 100x lvl 99999 enemies with 10x SP modifier in simulacrum and I don't care, as long as they are isolated from the main game. 

Nobody ever said that level cap is all that matters. Simply put, a small fraction of players puts some effort into improving their gear and finding reliable and efficient synergies with the intention of facing higher levels, because challenges are fun and easy wins aren't. We level-cap players are not expecting all the game to be harder, we are asking for the additional possibility to enjoy that sort of challenge without having to wait three business days on a monotonous mission, in such a way that casual players' life won't be even slightly affected. A separate mission, or a toggle like Steel Path, that's what I'd love to see.

"Most of the community", maybe 0.2%?

Level 9999 in the simulacrum, really? How entertaining.

It's not about flexing, I don't go around looking for attention because I managed to make it through 46 rounds of disruption. It's fun for me ignoring the exaggerated time it takes, and also rewarding. It's when all my grind in the game finally serves a purpose, when maxing a primed mod makes the difference, when primers matter, when the choice of elements is essential, when incarnon weapons shine, when a player's skills are required to survive, and so on.

I don't understand how this annoys you, you are totally free to ignore the option of higher difficulties, why would you try to prevent it for others? 

 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb VibingCat:

Nobody ever said that level cap is all that matters. Simply put, a small fraction of players puts some effort into improving their gear and finding reliable and efficient synergies with the intention of facing higher levels, because challenges are fun and easy wins aren't. We level-cap players are not expecting all the game to be harder, we are asking for the additional possibility to enjoy that sort of challenge without having to wait three business days on a monotonous mission, in such a way that casual players' life won't be even slightly affected. A separate mission, or a toggle like Steel Path, that's what I'd love to see.

"Most of the community", maybe 0.2%?

Level 9999 in the simulacrum, really? How entertaining.

It's not about flexing, I don't go around looking for attention because I managed to make it through 46 rounds of disruption. It's fun for me ignoring the exaggerated time it takes, and also rewarding. It's when all my grind in the game finally serves a purpose, when maxing a primed mod makes the difference, when primers matter, when the choice of elements is essential, when incarnon weapons shine, when a player's skills are required to survive, and so on.

I don't understand how this annoys you, you are totally free to ignore the option of higher difficulties, why would you try to prevent it for others? 

 

max level never worked?
Because defenses can be avoided and drops are the same... and in the end it all comes down to ABC rotation.

Or why the hell should I stay in a mission for longer than 20 minutes? there are still host bugs...

[VibingCat]

4 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

max level never worked?
Because defenses can be avoided and drops are the same... and in the end it all comes down to ABC rotation.

Or why the hell should I stay in a mission for longer than 20 minutes? there are still host bugs...

You are not encouraged to do it. Disruption has rotation CCCCC..., besides.

 

[Aruquae]

On 2023-11-15 at 10:11 AM, Thorham said:

Indeed. Just allow any level, sortie conditions, and steel path like enemy buffs.

Doesn’t the level range from the enemies you scan? I never do run Helios so I can’t tell if you scan an enemy in SP, would it work. 
This sounds confusing, I’m trying to say, does scanning level cap enemies let you use the high levels? Or does that have a cap?

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

The only reason to fight level cap enemies in Warframe is so you can epeen and say "look at me, my build kills level cap enemies".  It is generally readily apparent at well under 1/2 level cap if the build will work or not.

In fact, the ONLY challenge of level cap enemies in Warframe is enduring the slog and boredom to get there in the first place.  And short cutting it doesn't prove anything about build strength in any event: maybe your build could kill a capped enemy, but your survivability wouldn't have gotten you 45 of dodging to get there before you run out of revives.

IMO, the issue is not fighting level cap enemies, in fact, remove the cap entirely - they removed the practical cap on damage we can do with the absurd power creep, might as well.  

TRIGGER WARNING: Unpopular opinions ahead:

The two biggest problems WF has right now is 1) the absurd power creep we've gotten that seems to be getting exponentially worse, and 2) there is basically no chance of failure.  Its like modern education - participation awards for everyone. 

I know MR is no measure of ability, but its really the only thing there is so I'm going to use it for a second - when MR 10's are nuking SP maps, things have gotten out of control.  
 

[4thBro]

5 hours ago, RichardKam said:

> highest level in game is kuva survival

I......am sure you are right......

So that people won't use SP level cap disruption / endless / whatever as a bench mark for everything. 

You need shield gating to survive any SP mission. Blah blah blah weapons and frames are MR fodder because they can't kill stuff in high level contents. This is the only build you need for Ash / Revenant / ________ (fill in the blank) not because it is fun, but because it can handle lv9999 demolyst. We keep hearing all these non-sense simply because the game allows people to stay for 3 hours in one mission with no extra benefit ie AABC rotation, and that is a mistake. And somehow most of the community keep hyper-focused at that tiny part of the game and think it is all that matter.

SP endurance missions are fine, but DE should put a limit there. 

"It is DE's fault for making the game too easy. Level cap mission is the only meaningful game mode in the entire game."

Then go to simulacrum to pop 20x lvl 9999 corrupt eximus heavy gunners to flex the muscle. DE can let people keep automatically spawning 100x lvl 99999 enemies with 10x SP modifier in simulacrum and I don't care, as long as they are isolated from the main game. 

Yeah, see, you're completely missing the point I'm making. Like, strangely so.

 

Kuva Survival IS the highest level enemies in the game.

... ... ... if we never added things like Steel Path.

My video is a mockery of an alternate universe where the game is the way YOU want it. This is what we would be looking at. You could go into missions NAKED as half the Frames in the game and be fine.

 

You think you need shield gating to survive Steel Path? Do you WANT me to make another video???

I can easily show you, again, a Titania build that takes on Steel Path, WITHOUT abilities, WITHOUT shield gating. ANY weapon you want me to use.

 

The whole point is that it's not fun ragdolling defenseless critters, except for maybe like 60 seconds. But that can't be what the whole game is. But that IS what it is, if we don't have high level enemies.

 

And all I want is to have that. And there are INFINITE ways to include it in a way that doesn't interfere with players that just want to ragdoll defenseless critters for 8 hours a day.

[4thBro]

11 minutes ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

The only reason to fight level cap enemies in Warframe is so you can epeen and say "look at me, my build kills level cap enemies".

And the only reason not to fight level capped enemies is to say, "Look at me, I can clean out this level so quickly because I'm such a badass!"

You see how it's the same thing?

 

18 minutes ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

I know MR is no measure of ability, but its really the only thing there is so I'm going to use it for a second - when MR 10's are nuking SP maps, things have gotten out of control.

Not necessarily. I get what you're trying to say. But don't look to that as the measurement of anything. For example, I'm MR16.

... And I've been MR16 for like 5 years or more? I hate Mastery. I hate it with a passion, and I literally avoid doing it. I don't want to level a bunch of things I have no interest in. MR above 16 doesn't even do anything useful for me, either, so why would I raise it? I'm sitting on god knows how many Mastery tests, but I won't take them.

 

The amount of MR25+ players that I've seen, that are bumbling around, failing the Archon Spy mission, dying in Steel Path, etc etc...... it's a lot.

 

5 hours ago, VibingCat said:

I don't understand how this annoys you, you are totally free to ignore the option of higher difficulties, why would you try to prevent it for others?

Yeah this is starting to remind me of auction house discussions. People want to gatekeep it, but they don't really know why.

They say they're afraid that if max level content was more accessible (rather than EFFECTIVELY being a hidden mechanic, like it is right now), then more players would participate in it, and then the game would focus more on it.

All this fear tells me is that players are enjoying being bad at the game but still able to perform well in Normal Mode content. And they enjoy things like Alerts being level 10 enemies, etc, things like that. They're afraid that if more miscellaneous things became higher level, they won't get their free stuff as much... or something to that nature.

 

Of course we know the many problems with this logic. But, ultimately, they don't want their comfort taken away from them. They want to keep stacking inefficient damage multipliers and lazy survival numbers, and keep top end results. And why wouldn't they? Most people in games are like this.

[SneakyErvin]

WF needs the D3 system from rifts. You simply pick a level you are comfortable with and farm that. Granted in D3 the higher you get the more the rewards scale, but that wouldnt be needed in WF since it already doesnt scale between entry level SP and the level cap for instance, or between Earth and Kuva Fortress if we wanna look at normal things.

[PrideB4TheFall]

Proposing Keys you have to craft and put in your gear wheel. Dragon Key variant perhaps. For maxing enemies at spawn in a level.

Then you can play the way you want.

When you get inevitably bored with that, You can proudly say, "I beat Warframe." and move on to something else.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb VibingCat:

You are not encouraged to do it. Disruption has rotation CCCCC..., besides.

 

Yes. But whether it's worth it is another question. As a host you can maybe try it, but otherwise it will be too risky. especially if a supporter leaves the team and after host migration a low def warframe is surrounded with turbo ranged elite mobs.

and a-b is often very important because the keys for new prime parts drop there.

[VibingCat]

5 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

Yes. But whether it's worth it is another question. As a host you can maybe try it, but otherwise it will be too risky. especially if a supporter leaves the team and after host migration a low def warframe is surrounded with turbo ranged elite mobs.

and a-b is often very important because the keys for new prime parts drop there.

It's definitely worth it in terms of rewards, even if only a little better than Steel Path. Host migration is not a valid argument, given that it's a bigger problem in longer missions like the Circuit, whereas OP's max level missions wouldn't have to last long.

The fact that disruption easily grants rotation C rewards round after round makes it a lot more appealing than anything else, veterans don't need 2000 credits and 100 endo but relics. Maybe it doesn't fit you, this isn't for casual players, with all due respect.

 

[4thBro]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

WF needs the D3 system from rifts. You simply pick a level you are comfortable with and farm that. Granted in D3 the higher you get the more the rewards scale, but that wouldnt be needed in WF since it already doesnt scale between entry level SP and the level cap for instance, or between Earth and Kuva Fortress if we wanna look at normal things.

I dunno if you're talking about normal rifts or greater rifts, but - for all the bad of D3 - greater rifts were one of the best things in all of video gaming. Something that I wish many games would adopt. And it would go greatly in WF.

 

55 minutes ago, PrideB4TheFall said:

When you get inevitably bored with that, You can proudly say, "I beat Warframe." and move on to something else.

This is literally no different than playing WF for any other reason. Every reason has an end point. For every game.

However, with something like a greater rift mechanic, you can always strive to beat the #1, since the goal is ever-advancing. Even if YOU are #1! You can always strive to beat your own previous best, #1 or otherwise.

Grifts make for a GREAT eternal endgame goal, and it would greatly improve WF for anyone that wanted that content. And it would have no affect on anyone that didn't. Just like every other type of content WF has that you may not enjoy.

(I hate Excavations. Guess what? I also never have to do them. Even for Cryotic, I seem to do just fine without ever farming Exca. Just for one example.)

[PrideB4TheFall]

10 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

This is literally no different than playing WF for any other reason. Every reason has an end point. For every game.

So people do play WF for different reasons?

Ok, just wanted to make sure of that.

Well, while yes I do seek to improve my weapons and warframes. I am not really looking for an end per se.  Yes, I do watch meta build videos I don't feel compelled to make it why I play the game. I am more interested in how things will progress. (Gameplay (moderate SP player.) and narrative.) I don't think your concerns are invalid, if you want to challenge yourself you should be allowed to do so. (and without having to build up to it at an extraneous amount.) In that, I support your position. I think you should be able craft keys to get what you are looking for, and put a scoreboard somewhere in the starchart. (That's what you want correct?)

 

 

[4thBro]

1 hour ago, PrideB4TheFall said:

So people do play WF for different reasons?

Ok, just wanted to make sure of that.

Well, while yes I do seek to improve my weapons and warframes. I am not really looking for an end per se.  Yes, I do watch meta build videos I don't feel compelled to make it why I play the game. I am more interested in how things will progress. (Gameplay (moderate SP player.) and narrative.) I don't think your concerns are invalid, if you want to challenge yourself you should be allowed to do so. (and without having to build up to it at an extraneous amount.) In that, I support your position. I think you should be able craft keys to get what you are looking for, and put a scoreboard somewhere in the starchart. (That's what you want correct?)

 

 

That would be a neat thing, yes. I want *something.* There are a lot of iterations I would be happy with. We are not a hard crowd to please!

 

We just currently have... nothing.

 

Even if it was a dragon key, and had NO scoreboard at all. At least then I can create my own content, maybe through YT, make my own challenges, have my own community keeping score. That sort of thing.

But when the only way to face those enemies is either waiting around for 8 hours (actively staying alive in the mission rather than minimizing in the background), or having my loadout randomized, yeah, that's the same as nothing! Lol.

----------

I also want to note...

It's not like we barged into Mariokart and are trying to get Halo content out of it. You know what I mean?

 

Warframe teases high end content, and almost promises it through implication. And then it just never shows up. So I think that's an important distinction to make.

 

Well, guess I'm going back to the shadows, hoping for that fabled content update someday.

[Thorham]

7 hours ago, Malikili said:

Doesn’t the level range from the enemies you scan?

Enemy level depends entirely on the level you set in the Simulacrum.

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Nothing better in life than seeing a slash proc for 1.3 million lol.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

7 hours ago, 4thBro said:

And the only reason not to fight level capped enemies is to say, "Look at me, I can clean out this level so quickly because I'm such a badass!"

You see how it's the same thing?

actually - no.... one wipes the floor for the fast loot.
and one goes to level cap either for CCCCC rotational loot, in which case skipping the <9999 waves makes no sense, or is just doing it to say they did it.

Would I like unlimited enemy level in simulacrum for build testing? sure.  Do I agree with a skip-to-level-9999 in missions? no.  
I would much rather them nerf the crap out of everything to make it so base level SP is challenging no matter your gear... the way base level normal starchart is challening (without carries) for the first 100 hours for new players.
rather than increasing sp enemy level difficulty to an arbitrary and meaningess 100 plus a touch of armor, they could have halved the efficacy of every single mod for example.  so - not a "no mod mod world, but certainly a more challenging one.  and if 1/2 isn't enough, 1/4...

any skip-to-9999 reg mission will be no different than current sp - a couple meta builds, a bunch of taxi-me-please, and thats about it.

.

[MirageKnight]

What about tying enemy level  to the power level of the mission’s host? That way every mission is a fair challenge for the host, regardless of the tileset.

Yes, that does beg the question as to how to calculate player power level. Perhaps an average of the levels of gear equipped that also takes into account the amount of forma used on all gear as well.

[Gamma745]

2 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

What about tying enemy level  to the power level of the mission’s host? That way every mission is a fair challenge for the host, regardless of the tileset.

Yes, that does beg the question as to how to calculate player power level. Perhaps an average of the levels of gear equipped that also takes into account the amount of forma used on all gear as well.

Come on, you should know full well that's not going to work.

[4thBro]

6 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

actually - no.... one wipes the floor for the fast loot.
and one goes to level cap either for CCCCC rotational loot, in which case skipping the <9999 waves makes no sense, or is just doing it to say they did it.

Would I like unlimited enemy level in simulacrum for build testing? sure.  Do I agree with a skip-to-level-9999 in missions? no.  
I would much rather them nerf the crap out of everything to make it so base level SP is challenging no matter your gear... the way base level normal starchart is challening (without carries) for the first 100 hours for new players.
rather than increasing sp enemy level difficulty to an arbitrary and meaningess 100 plus a touch of armor, they could have halved the efficacy of every single mod for example.  so - not a "no mod mod world, but certainly a more challenging one.  and if 1/2 isn't enough, 1/4...

any skip-to-9999 reg mission will be no different than current sp - a couple meta builds, a bunch of taxi-me-please, and thats about it.

.

Uhhh... okay.

I mean, you said it yourself. They would be the same thing.

You would rather 1+3=4 instead of 2+2=4. And I don't really understand why.

 

In fact, is it not much easier to just add max level enemy content, than to READJUST EVERY SINGLE THING IN THE GAME so that Steel Path was that very same measurement? It feels like you're just being contrarian, and aren't seeing the bullet wound in your own foot.