Why "armor" again?

[Terridaks.]

11 минут назад, (PSN)robotwars7 сказал:

by this logic, basically anything can be armor: if I grab a bunch of thick magazines and wrap them around my body with tape so that it protects me from zombie bites, that's armor, because it's protecting my body. would it protect me from everything? no, but it will from something, so the definition fits.

warframes are definitely a form of armor; the operator is protected by the warframe, only when it is destroyed is the operator in any real danger. I suppose a more appropriate word would be "exosuits", since they are also focused on enhancing the operator's abilities and converting their raw void energy into something else. the fact that warframes are humanoid though, and are styled to look like elaborate armor sets, is the reason why they are just referred to as "armor"

If you need clarification, here it is: 

"defensive covering for the body
especially : covering (as of metal) used in combat".

Anything that can be taken off/on and serves as protection (especialy in combat) is armor.
No, warframes do not function as "suits of armor". I might as well argue that a military drone is armor because it protects its operator.

[Alguien]

1 minute ago, Terridaks. said:

Anything that can be taken off/on and serves as protection (especialy in combat) is armor.

You can take your skin off?

[Terridaks.]

16 минут назад, Alguien сказал:

You can take your skin off?

No. That's why my skin is not armor.

[SneakyErvin]

42 minutes ago, Terridaks. said:

There is no evidence that most people think warframes are specifically suits. Instead, there is only evidence that commoners see warframes as gods of war in their own right.

Nope the commoners dont see Warframes as some gods of war, they see the Tenno as gods of war, which means the warframes are their godly armors according to those commoners. Many know about the Tenno, few know what the Tenno actually are.

1 hour ago, Terridaks. said:

First, the DEs themselves claim that this site is a compilation of actual lore to refresh your memory. Secondly it immediately breaks the fourth wall by mentioning the game in the next post: "These files reveal details of events before and during the game, tread carefully Tenno!".

I'd just like to comment on this too. A compilation doesnt mean it is a canon part of the game as a whole, just that the info obtained in the game is available in the compliation aswell. So breaking the 4th wall by also saying "These files reveal details of events before and durging the game, tread carefully Tenno!" isnt true, since we the playerbase are also refered to as Tenno, just as the caste in the game. Just as the in-game hints refer to game mechanics that would potentially be 4th wall breaking knowledge and phrasing and signed Tenno Counsiler X for instance.

Just as we have very "gamey" references and explainations within the codex for certain game modes that would also break a 4th wall since they all imply we are just playing a game by explaining it the way the codex does.

2 minutes ago, Terridaks. said:

No. That's why my skin is not armor.

Except biology references the skin as natural armor. Just as some animals have natural armor that cannot be removed.

Edited November 28, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[schilds]

I didn't think the niggle was about whether warframes *have* armour (if it is, it's even sillier than I thought). They do, it protects their internals whether or not those are people. The question is whether they should be referred to as "suits of armour". That is, worn by and protecting a person.

Edited November 28, 2023 by schilds

[SneakyErvin]

13 minutes ago, schilds said:

I didn't think the niggle was about whether warframes *have* armour (if it is, it's even sillier than I thought). They do, it protects their internals whether or not those are people. The question is whether they should be referred to as "suits of armour". That is, worn by and protecting a person.

They should be refered to as "suits of armour" considering the context and that the author doesnt positively know that tenno and frames are seperate entities, or know of the warframe creation process at all. We know that they arent suits of armor, but that is because we have meta knowledge about the game world. Knowledge that isnt positive the in game author or creator of a lore fragment might have. Since they havent gone through the quests etc. that we have. It's like a historian writing about ancient civilizations, they cant be sure what they write is actually correct.

Just look at the different interpretations of the word Bärsärk (Berserker). Ranging from crazed wild warriors to some elite caste, where one is seen as wearing nothing but a bear skin while going primal in combat. And the other wears the skin as a symbol of elite status while simply being extraordinary warriors in several ways. With the elite version also had the whole "edelweiss" idea behind it, but instead of climbing a mountain to pick a specific flower they went to kill a bear.

Edited November 28, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[Terridaks.]

12 минут назад, SneakyErvin сказал:

Nope the commoners dont see Warframes as some gods of war, they see the Tenno as gods of war, which means the warframes are their godly armors according to those commoners. Many know about the Tenno, few know what the Tenno actually are.

I'd just like to comment on this too. A compilation doesnt mean it is a canon part of the game as a whole, just that the info obtained in the game is available in the compliation aswell. So breaking the 4th wall by also saying "These files reveal details of events before and durging the game, tread carefully Tenno!" isnt true, since we the playerbase are also refered to as Tenno, just as the caste in the game. Just as the in-game hints refer to game mechanics that would potentially be 4th wall breaking knowledge and phrasing and signed Tenno Counsiler X for instance.

Just as we have very "gamey" references and explainations within the codex for certain game modes that would also break a 4th wall since they all imply we are just playing a game by explaining it the way the codex does.

Except biology references the skin as natural armor. Just as some animals have natural armor that cannot be removed.

I can't agree with that. The people of Mars called Inaros, not his operator. Gauss was Saint of Altra, not his operator. And so on.

Natural armor is a phrase that does not mean literal "suit of armor". The body cannot exist without this "armor".

[schilds]

@SneakyErvin That's roughly my take on it too.

By the end of the "operator report" the author has figured out the Tenno's void connection and it's probable they also know how they use Warframes.

Half way through is a report on the discovery of Lua.

However, earlier entries contain speculation about the Lotus, Stalker, and the end of The Old War. In other words the author is not omniscient, wasn't around (or at least, not paying any attention) when the Orokin fell, and while they knew the Tenno were connected to warframes, it's plausible the exact nature of that connection was unknown to them. Especially given they are (apparently) going off patchy old records regarding past events and can only observe current events from a distance.

They certainly were/are not leaders of a faction privy to every Orokin (and Tenno) secret (just some of Albert Entrati's).

Edited November 28, 2023 by schilds

[Alguien]

27 minutes ago, schilds said:

I didn't think the niggle was about whether warframes *have* armour (if it is, it's even sillier than I thought). They do, it protects their internals whether or not those are people. The question is whether they should be referred to as "suits of armour". That is, worn by and protecting a person.

I will argue is the perfect microcosm for the whole thread.
Skin is literally a defensive covering for the body, is armor by the very definition of the word "armor", yet the same user who put that definition rejects it and tries to add extra qualifications for what is "true armor"

The same could be applied to the whole "suits of armor" for warframes, the operator doesn't die by being shot at, by it does get stunned when shot enough (lose all HP in gameplay terms), and the frames protect the operator from that, ergo they are armor for the operator. Frames are also capable of physical feats the Operator isn't capable of, just like Power Armor in Fallout, Halo or 40k does. The main difference is that Warframes use biotechnology instead, but that doesn't make them protect less.

"Wearing" is also a pretty silly term to be stuck with when we are talking in a setting where people transferred their minds to other bodies to such a point they used human bodies as Halloween costumes. At that point, the definition of "clothing" and "body" becomes so muddled the difference is academic. Hek, in 40k Space Marines literally control the power armor as extensions of their own bodies, I have never seen anybody said how "it doesn't count as power armor"

This whole discussion exist because some people have narrow definitions and refuse to expand them

[schilds]

15 minutes ago, Alguien said:

"Wearing" is also a pretty silly term to be stuck with when we are talking in a setting where people transferred their minds to other bodies to such a point they used human bodies as Halloween costumes. At that point, the definition of "clothing" and "body" becomes so muddled the difference is academic.

Brings to mind early speculation (by players) that frames were operated by energy beings :-P.

The word "transference" does suggest the Tenno aren't merely remote piloting an armoured drone, but are actually inserting the core of their being (mind/soul?) into the frame and so are present where the frame is in any sense that matters. In which case, not only is it reasonable to refer to each frame as a suit, but also the original physical child body.

Edited November 28, 2023 by schilds

[CephalonCarnage]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

They arent inside the frame, but the frame is an anchor to them which also lets them physically manifest on the field of battle by exiting the frame. They are just beyond the point of physical or void, which is likely why the infested can do nothing to them. And how they survive in space is either due to their suits or simply due to them being part void aswell. As to the operator picking things up, I think that makes it more clear they are physically there, since if you transfer back you drop what you are holding in your hands. Which is a mechanic specific to the operator, since the frame still holds whatever they held in their hands as you transfer out of them.

not necessarily. The operator could be manifesting a void reporesentation that has physical properties, but still isn't them. A solid void ghost, but still not teleporting down to face all the physical issues a squishy operator would face in reality. Like being killed, all that really happens is transference static preventing fully re-manifesting.

1 hour ago, Alguien said:

This is based on the premise that operators are still physically human and have the same limitations as a person, which is a false premise.

The child is still in the chair and has all the weaknesses of a normal person - hence being in cryosleep for so long, threatened being killed by Ordis spacing them once they appear to lose their powers. If the operator wasd a magic entity, then this wouldn't be part of the options in the quest. There's nothing to suggest they aren't normal kids (with magic powers)

It also explains why the operator manifests as a floating chest-beam persona before they've fully developed their grasp of what they are in the war within quest.

[Nobodys-Perfect]

15 minutes ago, CephalonCarnage said:

The operator could be manifesting a void reporesentation that has physical properties, but still isn't them.

I think it is them, based on some factors like the grineer queen trying to mindjack them as well as ballas saying "You can't kill the devil but you can cast it back into hell." The reason the operator actually comes out into battle is because there are relatively few consequences for death. Once they've awakened, They're a being like Vor. If killed, you reform in the void instantly, and will yourself back into the chair, or the warframe. This is also shown in gameplay in some of the early operator segments. If you die there, you get a cutscene of you reforming in the void before you're put back.

When the Orokin had the tenno as sick void cursed children, prior to warframes being invented and before they grasped how to control their powers, they couldn't manage to kill them. I think it was the first thing they tried and presented some difficulties.

Our mission loss parameters aren't the operator being slain, it's our warframe being rendered non functional. Presumably the reason the operator doesn't care about getting infested is because they can just shift back into the void and be returned to normal. (Void angels do this to try and regenerate too. Like us, and that's why only tenno can kill them.)

The heart on deimos is a vulnerability in some fashion, though. Not sure whether that not working just prevents transference, compromises the operators invulnerability, prevents them going back to the void, or prevents them going back into the normal universe once they're in the void. They're definitely immune to death in normal ways, but probably vulnerable to some ritualistic circumstance that severs their immortality, analogous to liches, and probably related to requiem phrases.

[Alguien]

14 minutes ago, schilds said:

Brings to mind early speculation (by players) that frames were operated by energy beings :-P.

The word "transference" does suggest the Tenno aren't merely remote piloting an armoured drone, but are actually inserting the core of their being (mind/soul?) into the frame and so are present where the frame is in any sense that matters. In which case, not only is it reasonable to refer to each frame as a suit, but also the original physical child body.

I recall DE shut down that speculation, but I wonder if that was to cover up or if Tenno weren't designed yet. But I think the descriptions fit them pretty well. An equivalent would be the Daemonic Princess of 40k, they were humans who "ascended" and their now demonic bodies are created by the Warp energy instead of atoms. The concept is pretty similar to tenno if one assumes their are made of "void energy"

Yeah, as I said, when you are transferring your conscience and biotech is involved, terms and definitions get murkier, for example, an energy being possessing a person may refer to a body as a "meat suit", since is basically what it is for it. Another example is in All Tomorrows book, where one of humanity's descendants is a race called "symbiotes" who take over bodies, with the narration explaining they change bodies like we would change clothes (One body for work, one while at home, etc)
 

27 minutes ago, CephalonCarnage said:

The child is still in the chair and has all the weaknesses of a normal person - hence being in cryosleep for so long, threatened being killed by Ordis spacing them once they appear to lose their powers. If the operator wasd a magic entity, then this wouldn't be part of the options in the quest. There's nothing to suggest they aren't normal kids (with magic powers)

It also explains why the operator manifests as a floating chest-beam persona before they've fully developed their grasp of what they are in the war within quest.

Worth saying that the event with Ordis not only was before the Operator discovered their powers, but also was in their minds as the Elder Queen was trying to weaken their resolve, I won't call it solid evidence.
And I don't know about you, but I don't think a kid can survive being stabbed by a giant sword like Balas did in the New Quest (I haven't tried stabbing kids to test this theory, yet).
Furthermore, the fact after that Balas throws Lotus and the Operator into the Void and then the Operator is missing (with the Drifter having to work with Ordis) does point out that it is their actual body that appears

[TARINunit9]

13 hours ago, Terridaks. said:

Again! Why the armor/suit? Warframes are not armor in any sense. Here's the definition of armor: defensive covering for the body.

Warframes are drones, biomachines, anything, but armor/suits.  Operators don't "wear" drones.

Look at the name "frame" again. The Orokin deliberately dehumanized the Warframes, they wanted to erase everything the Warframes used to be when they were human. Wanted the Zariman Children to think of them as nothing more than puppets to be used and discarded. As empty shells that most certainly weren't people with memories and emotions and feelings. Just weapons to be deployed, to be spent.

And clearly, looking at your post, it worked

[Terridaks.]

22 минуты назад, TARINunit9 сказал:

Look at the name "frame" again. The Orokin deliberately dehumanized the Warframes, they wanted to erase everything the Warframes used to be when they were human. Wanted the Zariman Children to think of them as nothing more than puppets to be used and discarded. As empty shells that most certainly weren't people with memories and emotions and feelings. Just weapons to be deployed, to be spent.

And clearly, looking at your post, it worked

Do I understand correctly that by calling them "suits of armor", we are getting closer to rehumanizing them?

Edited November 28, 2023 by Terridaks.

[TARINunit9]

15 minutes ago, Terridaks. said:

Do I understand correctly that by calling them "suits of armor", we are getting closer to rehumanizing them?

Sorry, I was saying that the "armor" designation is more like a leftover from the Orokin era

[Birdframe_Prime]

Okay, really quick and really simple:

It is incredibly rare in the current era of the game to know that a Warframe is not actually a Tenno in a suit. This is why Maroo calls us 'Tin Suits' and Alad V actually points out in The Second Dream that he's looked inside a Warframe and it didn't make sense.

It was even rarer for a non-Orokin to know it in the Orokin Era. This is why many of the Leverian entries talk about the different Warframes as if they were people. 

Since The Second Dream and The War Within, we have met more NPCs that do know what Warframes and Tenno are, such as Varzia and Onkko.

But again; the vast majority of the world of Warframe doesn't know what the Tenno are.

So you could call it the Unreliable Narrator, which DE does rely on a lot, but you could also take the bit in the Whispers in the Walls trailers/screenshots to be simply that (for Albrecht) there's the whole Warframe 1999 thing coming up and there's a world where the Warframes are literally Armour that some of those characters wear.

[(PSN)Unstar]

14 hours ago, Terridaks. said:

Warframes are drones, biomachines, anything, but armor/suits.

If I have the ability to transfer my consciousness into your body and control it as if it were my own, then for all intents and purposes I'm wearing your body and you are my suit.

If you're not a fan of that nomenclature, fair enough; but that doesn't make it inaccurate.

 

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, Terridaks. said:

I can't agree with that. The people of Mars called Inaros, not his operator. Gauss was Saint of Altra, not his operator. And so on.

Natural armor is a phrase that does not mean literal "suit of armor". The body cannot exist without this "armor".

That doesnt matter one bit, since common folk and most orokin for that matter dont know that there is an operator and a frame. So it is the Tenno as a whole i.e Operator+Warframe they refer to as Inaros or the Saint of Altra, because they think it is one, a warrior in battle armor. You have to remember that all of what surrounds the tenno and their link to the frames is very hush-hush and a main plot point of what Ballas' treason involves when he hands all that info to Hunhow. Not even our regular villains throughout the game know about the duality, only a select few suspect it. So common people knowing it and refering to frames seperate from operators would be very very unlikely and extremely silly, making the villains look like complete incompetent fools aswell.

Natural armor being a suit or not depends very much on the animal in question. However it matters little when it comes to this, since how it is worded comes down to the author (from a lore perspective) and what he/she actually knows. Which in the case you bring up is under the assumption that it is a warrior wearing an armor. Since the author lacks the knowledge that the frame is a forced mutation where the warrior and armor is one, and where there is also an external source controlling it.

21 hours ago, schilds said:

@SneakyErvin That's roughly my take on it too.

By the end of the "operator report" the author has figured out the Tenno's void connection and it's probable they also know how they use Warframes.

Half way through is a report on the discovery of Lua.

However, earlier entries contain speculation about the Lotus, Stalker, and the end of The Old War. In other words the author is not omniscient, wasn't around (or at least, not paying any attention) when the Orokin fell, and while they knew the Tenno were connected to warframes, it's plausible the exact nature of that connection was unknown to them. Especially given they are (apparently) going off patchy old records regarding past events and can only observe current events from a distance.

They certainly were/are not leaders of a faction privy to every Orokin (and Tenno) secret (just some of Albert Entrati's).

Yeah, it seems to just be a periodical compilation done by the author, where the entires handle thing that are based on the knowledge possessed at the moment of writing. As report after report further evolves as more knowledge is gained. In the first report we can see that it is based on only old war knowledge, since it mentions that the tenno have not been seen since the end of the old war/fall. So the compilition isnt written in the present. Heck the first entry might have very well been written long before the game actually starts, since our Tenno is not the first to awake after the old war as far as we know. We just happen to be the chosen.

21 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

not necessarily. The operator could be manifesting a void reporesentation that has physical properties, but still isn't them. A solid void ghost, but still not teleporting down to face all the physical issues a squishy operator would face in reality. Like being killed, all that really happens is transference static preventing fully re-manifesting.

The child is still in the chair and has all the weaknesses of a normal person - hence being in cryosleep for so long, threatened being killed by Ordis spacing them once they appear to lose their powers. If the operator wasd a magic entity, then this wouldn't be part of the options in the quest. There's nothing to suggest they aren't normal kids (with magic powers)

It also explains why the operator manifests as a floating chest-beam persona before they've fully developed their grasp of what they are in the war within quest.

We can test it partly in the game. If you are inside the orbiter, your operator will transfer their whole physical form from one place to another. Namely from wherever you are and back to an unoccupied chair. The only thing that differentiates from missions is that when you transfer from frame to operator you instead break the link while in the orbiter, so instead of appearing at the frame the operator rises from the chair. But when you re-link the operator transfers his whole form to the chair. Just as the operator does in some other parts of the game upon death when no frame is present and we know the operator is physically there.

Those things occur in earlier states, but when we've unlocked the full power they arent bound by those weaknesses. And the kid being fully magical or not wouldnt really matter for the quest, since it is a decision Ordis makes, and Ordis lacks knowledge. And at that point in the quest, if the powers are gone they might very well be mortal, so can potentially die. But our tenno has all the powers eventually, we arent in that middle state of earlier quests, nor lacking our void powers completely. The thing we know nothing about really is what would happen if all our "anchors" get destroyed, will the tenno die permamently at that point, return to and become part of the void, be reborn in the void or what?

21 hours ago, Alguien said:

Yeah, as I said, when you are transferring your conscience and biotech is involved, terms and definitions get murkier, for example, an energy being possessing a person may refer to a body as a "meat suit", since is basically what it is for it. Another example is in All Tomorrows book, where one of humanity's descendants is a race called "symbiotes" who take over bodies, with the narration explaining they change bodies like we would change clothes (One body for work, one while at home, etc)

Yep can see it in the movie Possessor aswell, where assassins use other people as suits/weapons to kill their target. This is done by drugging the "suit" and implanting a fleeting form of tech in their skull ahead of time, then they link up with them through a super computer to control them.

Also, how would Venom, Carnage and the other symbiotes class? Wouldnt they be suits of armor for their host, since they effectively protect the host while attached to them.

[Aruquae]

On 2023-11-29 at 9:49 AM, SneakyErvin said:

Also, how would Venom, Carnage and the other symbiotes class? Wouldnt they be suits of armor for their host, since they effectively protect the host while attached to them.

You know… that’s actually a good comparison

 Makes sense, even if they are living beings, they’re protecting their hosts. So it is armor in a sense 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Malikili
That’s not thanks

[Loza03]

The developers probably knew some level of the twist whilst writing that lore. But they also very probably lied so that the twist would, well, exist.

[SneakyErvin]

This thread made me notice something interesting when reading through the catch up info. Unrelated to the OP topic but still

We've always heard people say that Sentients dont get specifically harmed by the Void, it just made them barren. However the info in the compendium actually implies that the Void is indeed damaging to them and one of the reasons why the Void Towers were even made. Reminds me of BSG and the weapon/armamaments cache hidden by the humans within a nebula (was it a nebula?) because the Cylons couldnt go there due to that type of space being severely harmful to them.

Edited November 30, 2023 by SneakyErvin