Lets talk about Infusion Archon Crystal

[crimsonspartan1]

3 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I genuinely still don't understand why people don't get this whole Archon Shard progression system in general.

You're supposed to take it slow. You're supposed to not have enough to use on every frame. You're supposed to feel the limitation of two per week.

They will streamline the system over time, as the Shards become more and more commonplace, but not yet. Not quickly.

The entire point of this system is that it's slow and keeps you coming back every week.

Yes, that's frustrating.

Yes, that's still the point.

We aren't going to change this by complaining. Only by actually engaging with the system and proving that there's not enough.

The same way that we basically forced DE to update Chroma's 1 when they introduced Helminth and 100% of people using Helminth on Chroma got rid of his 1 for literally anything better.

The mindset of a lot of people is that they want things "now" instead of gradually obtaining said things over time. They aren't patient, they want to put shards on all of their frames straight away instead of gradually obtaining them over time, and if they can't do things immediately, they get frustrated.

On one end 2 per week isn't much and it does require you to constantly do the Kahl weekly and Archon hunts, and you can only get two of each shard every three weeks (x2 azure one week, 1x crimson and amber the next week and the week after and then repeat the cycle) so it can take a while if you want five of a single shard type on a singular frame, less if you mix and match and even more if you're aiming for all tauforged shards. On the other end, the whole point of the shards is for people to gradually obtain them to power up their frames of choice instead of obtaining multiple shards per week to power up 3+ frames at a time. 

While i'm not against increasing the ways to obtain shards, we shouldn't be able to farm 6+ shards with ease in just a few days or a single week.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, crimsonspartan1 said:

While i'm not against increasing the ways to obtain shards, we shouldn't be able to farm 6+ shards with ease in just a few days or a single week.

I really dont see why not. Maybe not at that speed, but we should be able to farm them far more to incentivice use of the game mode they've added. Kahl could stick to a 1 per week thing, but Archons should be a repeatable mission type with RNG shard drops, where we pick which Archon to hunt whenever we like. It would also remove the whole "falling behind" thing, since people could play at their own pace whenever they have the chance to.

I mean consider this. Over a year Archon hunts will see up to 53 visits per player due to it being time gated. Sure that looks great, oh wow the mode has been used for a whole year, or two even as time passes by. But it is still just 52-53 measly visits per year. If they instead allowed us to farm shards the usage of the content they've spent time and resources on creating would skyrocket. And instead of gating it they could introduce other types of shard fusions over time to keep us hunting archons for years, just as they add now with WitW.

Blue+Red, Blue+Yellow, Red+Yellow, Red+Blue+Yellow, Red+Purple, Red+Orange, Red+Green, Purple+Green and so on as time passes by. And they could also replace the Tau failsafe system in such a case with fusion and make the fusion requirement costly enough to not be too fast.

edit: Just an example. Duviri made me engage with the update for roughly 3 months straight, and that is an update where all rewards are practically get-one-and-done. So even if we could farm shards as much as we like it would still have the potential to last forever since the system would have the potential to be infinite or well evergreen in its reward setup. More so if they constantly introduce more ways to combine shards, since it would constantly alter how we want to shard individual frames etc. Meaning upgrades or changes would always be a possibility and an incentive to engage more with the modes that reward us "basic" shards.

Imagine something like a black shard, in order to create it you'd need something crazy like 5 rainbow shards, where each such shard would require you to combine red, blue, yellow, green, purple and orange to begin with. Or if they add hard bound shards, that also create some crazy pre-steps but would provide higher than usual stats since you consume so many shards in the process and can then never recover the shard if you change your mind or sell the frame.

Edited December 10, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[crimsonspartan1]

25 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I really dont see why not. Maybe not at that speed, but we should be able to farm them far more to incentivice use of the game mode they've added. Kahl could stick to a 1 per week thing, but Archons should be a repeatable mission type with RNG shard drops, where we pick which Archon to hunt whenever we like. It would also remove the whole "falling behind" thing, since people could play at their own pace whenever they have the chance to.

I mean consider this. Over a year Archon hunts will see up to 53 visits per player due to it being time gated. Sure that looks great, oh wow the mode has been used for a whole year, or two even as time passes by. But it is still just 52-53 measly visits per year. If they instead allowed us to farm shards the usage of the content they've spent time and resources on creating would skyrocket. And instead of gating it they could introduce other types of shard fusions over time to keep us hunting archons for years, just as they add now with WitW.

Blue+Red, Blue+Yellow, Red+Yellow, Red+Blue+Yellow, Red+Purple, Red+Orange, Red+Green, Purple+Green and so on as time passes by. And they could also replace the Tau failsafe system in such a case with fusion and make the fusion requirement costly enough to not be too fast.

edit: Just an example. Duviri made me engage with the update for roughly 3 months straight, and that is an update where all rewards are practically get-one-and-done. So even if we could farm shards as much as we like it would still have the potential to last forever since the system would have the potential to be infinite or well evergreen in its reward setup. More so if they constantly introduce more ways to combine shards, since it would constantly alter how we want to shard individual frames etc. Meaning upgrades or changes would always be a possibility and an incentive to engage more with the modes that reward us "basic" shards.

Imagine something like a black shard, in order to create it you'd need something crazy like 5 rainbow shards, where each such shard would require you to combine red, blue, yellow, green, purple and orange to begin with. Or if they add hard bound shards, that also create some crazy pre-steps but would provide higher than usual stats since you consume so many shards in the process and can then never recover the shard if you change your mind or sell the frame.

Archon hunts are basically upgraded sorties since you get the same rewards as you can get from the sorties plus an archon shard, so unless you change how the mission works or make the "sortie rewards" a one time thing per week and the shards farmable, it'll most likely stay the same. 

Archon shards are a strong system that can buff up any frames without taking up mod slots, making it possible to farm an unlimited amount of them without limits somewhat beats the point of gradually powering up your frames. Plus we don't need to further complicate things by adding even more share types that require you to consume even more shards, (i also want to see what the Green, purple and orange shards actually offer when WITW comes out before even thinking about further fusions). 

I'm definitely up for more ways to obtain shards, we just shouldn't be able to farm them as much as we want per week with how beneficial they are to powering up our frames, and we really shouldn't further complicate things and make powercrept even more blatant with even bigger fusion shards. I'd even be up for an even harder version of archon hunts that has us fight all three archons at once, together or in order so we can get one of each shard per hunt (perhaps if DE doesn't want the OG hunts to be forgotten, they could make the regular hunts weekly and add in that special, harder fight which could be a one per month thing, so we'd get 36 more shards per year, 12 of each three shards), or instead update the kahl missions to add more missions and variety in and perhaps the ability to buy one of each shard per week as well (I'd say one of your choice but everyone would only buy crimson shards in that case? Also i have a lot of stock saved up but i only ever buy archon shards from it. Even if they don't add in more buyable shards in his store i do want to see his shop get updated with more things we can buy in general).

[SneakyErvin]

8 minutes ago, crimsonspartan1 said:

Archon hunts are basically upgraded sorties since you get the same rewards as you can get from the sorties plus an archon shard, so unless you change how the mission works or make the "sortie rewards" a one time thing per week and the shards farmable, it'll most likely stay the same. 

Yeah sortie reward should be granted 1 time per week. That could be accessed from the mission window like now and be tied to a specific archon per week. Then to farm them you'd just access it through the star chart on a boss node. Skipping the 3 step set up since you'd instead have RNG based shard drops when you farm them. So the 3 step would only be tied to the sortie version.

10 minutes ago, crimsonspartan1 said:

Archon shards are a strong system that can buff up any frames without taking up mod slots, making it possible to farm an unlimited amount of them without limits somewhat beats the point of gradually powering up your frames. Plus we don't need to further complicate things by adding even more share types that require you to consume even more shards, (i also want to see what the Green, purple and orange shards actually offer when WITW comes out before even thinking about further fusions).

All it does it add more room to experiment and use more frames actively, since you are in the end capping a single frame fast with the current system aswell. So all that the current system does is limit the amount of frames you wanna engage with and play. I dont suddenly get more powerful as I start progressing a second frame in the shard system after I'm finished with my priority one frame. I'm at the height of power after my prio one is min-maxed. And I think we need to complicate things more, since WF lacks depth overall. More shard options to fill more niche needs across the roster of 55 frame would be good. Plus if we were able to farm freely consuming wouldnt be a problem in itself, since we wouldnt be limited to a weekly amount of shards.

17 minutes ago, crimsonspartan1 said:

I'm definitely up for more ways to obtain shards, we just shouldn't be able to farm them as much as we want per week with how beneficial they are to powering up our frames, and we really shouldn't further complicate things and make powercrept even more blatant with even bigger fusion shards. I'd even be up for an even harder version of archon hunts that has us fight all three archons at once, together or in order so we can get one of each shard per hunt (perhaps if DE doesn't want the OG hunts to be forgotten, they could make the regular hunts weekly and add in that special, harder fight which could be a one per month thing, so we'd get 36 more shards per year, 12 of each three shards), or instead update the kahl missions to add more missions and variety in and perhaps the ability to buy one of each shard per week as well (I'd say one of your choice but everyone would only buy crimson shards in that case? Also i have a lot of stock saved up but i only ever buy archon shards from it. Even if they don't add in more buyable shards in his store i do want to see his shop get updated with more things we can buy in general).

Again, once you are done with a single frame you are already at the height of your power, so the gate and limit is in reality pointless and only reeks of mobile system implementations atm. And it wouldnt have to result in powercreep either to add more fusions, it could simply mean different stats. And the hard bound shard I talked about could be specific to a certain type that doesnt positively increase power, but does something else, some form of utility.

I also dont think adding an even longer gate would be good, it is already problematic when people miss a week. Imagine missing a month for some reason. If anything a yearly total of hunts would be better, or a gradually increasing cap people can catch up to no matter when they start. So someone starting now would be able to do all their hunts and garrison missions in a row if they are up to it, from the day it went live and up to the current week. With shards sold in the garrison shop having a stack increasing weekly so people can always catch up.

[crimsonspartan1]

21 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yeah sortie reward should be granted 1 time per week. That could be accessed from the mission window like now and be tied to a specific archon per week. Then to farm them you'd just access it through the star chart on a boss node. Skipping the 3 step set up since you'd instead have RNG based shard drops when you farm them. So the 3 step would only be tied to the sortie version.

All it does it add more room to experiment and use more frames actively, since you are in the end capping a single frame fast with the current system aswell. So all that the current system does is limit the amount of frames you wanna engage with and play. I dont suddenly get more powerful as I start progressing a second frame in the shard system after I'm finished with my priority one frame. I'm at the height of power after my prio one is min-maxed. And I think we need to complicate things more, since WF lacks depth overall. More shard options to fill more niche needs across the roster of 55 frame would be good. Plus if we were able to farm freely consuming wouldnt be a problem in itself, since we wouldnt be limited to a weekly amount of shards.

Again, once you are done with a single frame you are already at the height of your power, so the gate and limit is in reality pointless and only reeks of mobile system implementations atm. And it wouldnt have to result in powercreep either to add more fusions, it could simply mean different stats. And the hard bound shard I talked about could be specific to a certain type that doesnt positively increase power, but does something else, some form of utility.

I also dont think adding an even longer gate would be good, it is already problematic when people miss a week. Imagine missing a month for some reason. If anything a yearly total of hunts would be better, or a gradually increasing cap people can catch up to no matter when they start. So someone starting now would be able to do all their hunts and garrison missions in a row if they are up to it, from the day it went live and up to the current week. With shards sold in the garrison shop having a stack increasing weekly so people can always catch up.

Depending on what stats they have, there's always going to be one or two things everyone wants to prioritize. Nobody is going to pick parkour velocity over power strength on most frames unless they're going for meme builds. If we go with your idea and have "black" shards that are made from "rainbow shards" which are a result of a fusion between every other shard each, then surely those shards will have to be much, much stronger in order to justify sacrificing so many shards. Between shards, arcanes, mods and rivens, most experienced / late game players are already strong enough to easily solo any mission, even easier in teams. I don't know how powerful the emerald, topaz and violet shards will be, but they'll need to be very powerful to justify sacrificing shards to obtain them, now imagine how op something has to be in order to sacrifice 5 "rainbow shards" that are made from 5 individual shards each, and three of those shards you need to sacrifice 2 individual shards each, so you're sacrificing 25 topaz, emerald and violet shards and sacrificing even more azure, crimson and topaz shards for a single black shard. Even if you ramp up the rate of obtaining shards to an absurd degree, it's still going to take ages just to get a single frame loaded with those super shards, and assuming those black shards are the most op thing, your idea of "more shards = more variety" wouldn't exist because everyone will try and get all their frames fitted with those super shards.

That said, i'm still waiting for whispers in the walls to drop and figure out what the new shards even do. Even with the shard fusion coming out that update, the emerald, topaz and violet shards will need to be really good to justify fusing our existing shards for them, so if they turn out bad, then nobody's gonna wanna fuse them, but if they are better than the other shards, then your shard ideas will need to be even bigger to justify fusing over twice the shards and many more for them. I don't hate your idea obviously, i just think it's a bit..."Much"?

Also a month is less easy to miss than a week. Things will inevitably have to be time-gated which sucks, but if everything lasted forever, someone who begun playing a few days or weeks ago could easily be on-par with someone who's been playing for years. Like if archon hunts shouldn't be on a weekly / monthly basis, then perhaps events like Plague star shouldn't be time limited either?

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Honestly, I no longer run Kahl missions or archon hunts , as they are super repetitive and I was already kinda sick of them after a month.

I also kinda feel like the Shard system backfired. On paper it was supposed to give us an incentive to farm them for a long time since we needed five per frame, but in reality, I ended up only putting them on one or two frames I play all the time , and it kinda discourages me from even using them on other frames since they are too annoying to gather.

Now it's going to be even worse, as the small stockpile I managed to amass before I burned out of the gamemodes will be dissolved to make the new ones, meaning I'll have even less to properly kit my frames , which in turn means I'll probably keep reverting to using the same 2-3 frames all the times since they are the only ones that are fully modded.

[crimsonspartan1]

14 hours ago, (PSN)Stealth_Cobra said:

Honestly, I no longer run Kahl missions or archon hunts , as they are super repetitive and I was already kinda sick of them after a month.

I also kinda feel like the Shard system backfired. On paper it was supposed to give us an incentive to farm them for a long time since we needed five per frame, but in reality, I ended up only putting them on one or two frames I play all the time , and it kinda discourages me from even using them on other frames since they are too annoying to gather.

Now it's going to be even worse, as the small stockpile I managed to amass before I burned out of the gamemodes will be dissolved to make the new ones, meaning I'll have even less to properly kit my frames , which in turn means I'll probably keep reverting to using the same 2-3 frames all the times since they are the only ones that are fully modded.

The way archon shards are right now isn't the best. Doing archon hunts and the kahl missions every week gets super repetitive, and the new shard fusion system screws those who decided against farming those missions every week. 

On the one hand, the shards provide pretty great benefits without taking up any mod slots at the cost of requiring a lot of bile to remove them off warframes (and the shards themselves can be lost if you delete a frame with shards on them) so they shouldn't be super easy to obtain a bunch of them in a short period of time. On the other hand, you can only get two per week and they require you to do the archon hunts and kahl mission every week in order to not miss out. 

I've been farming the shards since day one of them coming out so i have a lot (plus i tend to be good with repeating things every week, but i know not everyone wants to repeat the missions every week), but i put a lot of shards on a lot of my warframes, mainly crimson shards while some have azure shards for bonus armor (makes squishier frames tankier) and amber shards to aid with casting speed and sometimes for more energy from energy orbs. The three new shards need to be really good in order to justify sacrificing one's own stockpile of shards in order to obtain them, and we need more ways to obtain shards so we can fuse more of them and not worry about constantly running low on shards.

Edited December 11, 2023 by crimsonspartan1

[PR1D3]

Oh here we go again. First off, the whole "it's going to take us forever to shard out all warframes" is a dumb argument. It was dumb when it was said back at the system's introduction and it's still dumb now. Unless you're a no lifer or a youtuber the shard acquisition rates are fine. No one truly plays ALL warframes, ALL the time. Let's be real and honest. Most people use a tight list of frames, if they don't OTP, and will only focus on their favorites. Oh noes, it will take a long time to put shards on a frame I've had/have no interest in playing, where the only thing I did was max ranking it 5 years ago. Woe is me!

Second, another person who didn't watch the stream or read the summary. New mode gives shards. We don't know the rates yet but it sufficiently nulifies your 'complaint'.

[Aruquae]

11 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

Second, another person who didn't watch the stream or read the summary. New mode gives shards. We don't know the rates yet but it sufficiently nulifies your 'complaint'.

Yet again did they ever specify Tauforged? Because they said Kahl gives shards too, but it’s never tauforged

They also stated they’re reducing the cost for bile, and making more types of bile to balance it out. 
It won’t be 50% of bile per shard, hooray!

 

[SneakyErvin]

22 hours ago, crimsonspartan1 said:

Depending on what stats they have, there's always going to be one or two things everyone wants to prioritize. Nobody is going to pick parkour velocity over power strength on most frames unless they're going for meme builds. If we go with your idea and have "black" shards that are made from "rainbow shards" which are a result of a fusion between every other shard each, then surely those shards will have to be much, much stronger in order to justify sacrificing so many shards. Between shards, arcanes, mods and rivens, most experienced / late game players are already strong enough to easily solo any mission, even easier in teams. I don't know how powerful the emerald, topaz and violet shards will be, but they'll need to be very powerful to justify sacrificing shards to obtain them, now imagine how op something has to be in order to sacrifice 5 "rainbow shards" that are made from 5 individual shards each, and three of those shards you need to sacrifice 2 individual shards each, so you're sacrificing 25 topaz, emerald and violet shards and sacrificing even more azure, crimson and topaz shards for a single black shard. Even if you ramp up the rate of obtaining shards to an absurd degree, it's still going to take ages just to get a single frame loaded with those super shards, and assuming those black shards are the most op thing, your idea of "more shards = more variety" wouldn't exist because everyone will try and get all their frames fitted with those super shards.

That said, i'm still waiting for whispers in the walls to drop and figure out what the new shards even do. Even with the shard fusion coming out that update, the emerald, topaz and violet shards will need to be really good to justify fusing our existing shards for them, so if they turn out bad, then nobody's gonna wanna fuse them, but if they are better than the other shards, then your shard ideas will need to be even bigger to justify fusing over twice the shards and many more for them. I don't hate your idea obviously, i just think it's a bit..."Much"?

Also a month is less easy to miss than a week. Things will inevitably have to be time-gated which sucks, but if everything lasted forever, someone who begun playing a few days or weeks ago could easily be on-par with someone who's been playing for years. Like if archon hunts shouldn't be on a weekly / monthly basis, then perhaps events like Plague star shouldn't be time limited either?

But they dont need to be more powerful, they can simply bring rarer bonuses otherwise barely seen. They could give those super rare or high investment shards stats like bonus loot, movement speed, knock down resistance, weapon silence, chance to not trigger alarms or be seen by cameras (which could reach 100% with 5 shards), resistance to X status (like the arcanes) and other stats we see in other games of similar types, stats that simply bring utility and not direct power that improves TTK/KPM/DPS or whatever you wanna call it. Topaz and emerald from what has been seen will be powerful but situational due to the requirements for their procs or the stats the shards improve. Topaz, if going live as seen will require Blast damage modding to bring the biggest benefit. The majority of the roster will not even consider it. It will have some benefits for radiation, heat and impact, but nothing mindblowing. I've considered Topaz for Hydroid since I can potentially use Blast without any bigger drawback, but I doubt I will since there will be a drawback by having to give up Gas and Cold. And Emerald will be something for Saryn or if you maybe run Nourish in your build so you can mod weapons for full armor strip like in the old days while still having access to viral.

It's all about making things more unique between frames and give us something that can practically result in infinite farming and tinkering. So far I will likely use 1 or 2 of the new shards on a couple of frames, but the majority will likely never touch them at all. Unless Violet turns out to be bonkers. But it will be hard giving up cast speed, armor, power or duration for the very situational stats we've seen that also come with heavy pre-requirements to proc and work. So far only the +corrosive stacks has been interesting thanks to Saryn and the exsistance of Nourish.

Yeah it's harder to miss but if you do miss it you are that much further behind. I dont see the issue with people being able to catch up if they spend the same active time on the activity. That someone has been around for 10 years doesnt mean they've spent more time on things than anyone else, same as if someone has been here for all Archon hunts, they've still only spent X amount of time on it per week. So if a new player joins and invests the same time on the mode but without the gate the two have in the end spent the same time on getting the same amount of shards. It shouldnt matter if the person has been around for 10 years or 1 month if the time spent on Archons has been the same for both. There is absolutely no reason to time game content. Plague Star is limited because it is an event, and when it is around there is no gate on it, only you decide how much you want to get out of it by farming more or less during that period.

30 minutes ago, PR1D3 said:

Oh here we go again. First off, the whole "it's going to take us forever to shard out all warframes" is a dumb argument. It was dumb when it was said back at the system's introduction and it's still dumb now. Unless you're a no lifer or a youtuber the shard acquisition rates are fine. No one truly plays ALL warframes, ALL the time. Let's be real and honest. Most people use a tight list of frames, if they don't OTP, and will only focus on their favorites. Oh noes, it will take a long time to put shards on a frame I've had/have no interest in playing, where the only thing I did was max ranking it 5 years ago. Woe is me!

Second, another person who didn't watch the stream or read the summary. New mode gives shards. We don't know the rates yet but it sufficiently nulifies your 'complaint'.

So there is no reason for the limitation, since like you say, most people only play a few frames and those will be geared out quickly even with the gate. So why punish players that enjoy plenty of switching when it doesnt impact the meta focused players or the power ceiling itself one bit?

Edited December 11, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[crimsonspartan1]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

But they dont need to be more powerful, they can simply bring rarer bonuses otherwise barely seen. They could give those super rare or high investment shards stats like bonus loot, movement speed, knock down resistance, weapon silence, chance to not trigger alarms or be seen by cameras (which could reach 100% with 5 shards), resistance to X status (like the arcanes) and other stats we see in other games of similar types, stats that simply bring utility and not direct power that improves TTK/KPM/DPS or whatever you wanna call it. Topaz and emerald from what has been seen will be powerful but situational due to the requirements for their procs or the stats the shards improve. Topaz, if going live as seen will require Blast damage modding to bring the biggest benefit. The majority of the roster will not even consider it. It will have some benefits for radiation, heat and impact, but nothing mindblowing. I've considered Topaz for Hydroid since I can potentially use Blast without any bigger drawback, but I doubt I will since there will be a drawback by having to give up Gas and Cold. And Emerald will be something for Saryn or if you maybe run Nourish in your build so you can mod weapons for full armor strip like in the old days while still having access to viral.

It's all about making things more unique between frames and give us something that can practically result in infinite farming and tinkering. So far I will likely use 1 or 2 of the new shards on a couple of frames, but the majority will likely never touch them at all. Unless Violet turns out to be bonkers. But it will be hard giving up cast speed, armor, power or duration for the very situational stats we've seen that also come with heavy pre-requirements to proc and work. So far only the +corrosive stacks has been interesting thanks to Saryn and the exsistance of Nourish.

No one's going to fuse a ton of shards for stuff like "not triggering alarms" over power strength from crimson shards for example, and on the opposite end, if "Bonus loot" was a shard feature, then that'd be something literally everyone would go for to maximize loot gains, depending on what "bonus loot" means, whether it's more loot drops or more loot gained from each drop. Smeeta's are already vastly overused compared to most companions due to their double loot bonus, we probably don't need shards that do that as well.

I'm definitely up for more unique warframe builds, and variety from shards would be good, but a lot of stuff i feel like will never be used. "blast procs regen 5 shields" from the topaz shard sounds interesting, but one that requires you to either specifically mod for blast, or use a weapon with blast already on it, and you have abilities like Pillage that can insta-regen shields anyway so i can't see anyone using that, but topaz's "every 5 enemies affected by heat killed gives +1% bonus permanent secondary crit chance" could see some use, since heat is one of the most used status effects and there are a lot of strong secondaries that could make use of it, but unless you're doing endless missions, simply using crimson shards to mod for the +25% secondary crit chance per shard effect is just so much more effective. I definitely want some unique and cool effects from fusion shards, but i really do feel like those effects should actually be pretty good to justify sacrificing your own supply of shards to get them. 

[PR1D3]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

So there is no reason for the limitation, since like you say, most people only play a few frames and those will be geared out quickly even with the gate. So why punish players that enjoy plenty of switching when it doesnt impact the meta focused players or the power ceiling itself one bit?

The obvious reason for the original limitation being that of design intentions by the developers. A stop gap of no life blitz of the new system at release. It's now being eased back a bit, they must be ok/comfortable of where they stand now after the dust has settled to allow a much liberal usage of the system. "Punish" is an over exaggeration given that the system isn't a make or break type of thing. This is straight up min/maxing. Cause, again, if I was to accept that there are some players who do use all 50+ WF at any given time (which I still call cap on your switching statement), they would be an extreme minority. One that would be statistically insignificant, and to change something specifically for them would be a waste of time. But ultimately, all of this is a moot point given the ease back of the system. Now will that translate to them raining down from the heavens in excess? Don't know, but if its slight boost that still doesn't enable you to speed through and socket everything and future content way ahead of time, it is what it is. There's your answer, again. Cause the devs said so, cause they don't want you doing everything in a matter of a few days then disappearing. The carrot on a stick for retention.

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, crimsonspartan1 said:

No one's going to fuse a ton of shards for stuff like "not triggering alarms" over power strength from crimson shards for example, and on the opposite end, if "Bonus loot" was a shard feature, then that'd be something literally everyone would go for to maximize loot gains, depending on what "bonus loot" means, whether it's more loot drops or more loot gained from each drop. Smeeta's are already vastly overused compared to most companions due to their double loot bonus, we probably don't need shards that do that as well.

I'm definitely up for more unique warframe builds, and variety from shards would be good, but a lot of stuff i feel like will never be used. "blast procs regen 5 shields" from the topaz shard sounds interesting, but one that requires you to either specifically mod for blast, or use a weapon with blast already on it, and you have abilities like Pillage that can insta-regen shields anyway so i can't see anyone using that, but topaz's "every 5 enemies affected by heat killed gives +1% bonus permanent secondary crit chance" could see some use, since heat is one of the most used status effects and there are a lot of strong secondaries that could make use of it, but unless you're doing endless missions, simply using crimson shards to mod for the +25% secondary crit chance per shard effect is just so much more effective. I definitely want some unique and cool effects from fusion shards, but i really do feel like those effects should actually be pretty good to justify sacrificing your own supply of shards to get them. 

That really depends on which frame people us. My point is, adding multiple options would be good and if it is done through big investments that lead to more farming of something the better, in comparison to just gating that is. Atleast when expensive things are introduced, the player has the choice regarding if they find it worth investing time in or not, while a gate is just a illusionairy "look at our game, people engage with our content for this long!". If I had the option to grind freely and obtain things like a high investment anti-alarm trigger you can bet your ass I'd farm 5 of those shards for a frame so I could skip Ivara or Wukong when I want quick and 100% safe spy runs. The idea of bonus loot would be that it works like loot skills, with 5 shards being 100% chance to roll an extra time.

Sure shields on blast needs specific modding, but we will have frames that can utilize it quite well without bigger drawbacks. And depending on if the upcoming combined elemental mods will be available on all weapon types or just secondaries more build combos might pup up that can actually utilize the shield/blast effect from Topaz. And depending on how the game treats the shard, it is possible you might be able to trigger it through companions, since things like Growing Power trigger on companion weapon status application already. The crit can probably turn out quite crazy when needed in case the cap on it is high enough. A single shard will be atleast 20% extra crit per minute in survival for instance, 5 shards and you are at 100% or more crit instead at that point. There is also the question if it is additive or multiplicative, if additive it can be really fun with weapons like Knukor and other low crit chance secondaries.

16 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

The obvious reason for the original limitation being that of design intentions by the developers. A stop gap of no life blitz of the new system at release. It's now being eased back a bit, they must be ok/comfortable of where they stand now after the dust has settled to allow a much liberal usage of the system. "Punish" is an over exaggeration given that the system isn't a make or break type of thing. This is straight up min/maxing. Cause, again, if I was to accept that there are some players who do use all 50+ WF at any given time (which I still call cap on your switching statement), they would be an extreme minority. One that would be statistically insignificant, and to change something specifically for them would be a waste of time. But ultimately, all of this is a moot point given the ease back of the system. Now will that translate to them raining down from the heavens in excess? Don't know, but if its slight boost that still doesn't enable you to speed through and socket everything and future content way ahead of time, it is what it is. There's your answer, again. Cause the devs said so, cause they don't want you doing everything in a matter of a few days then disappearing. The carrot on a stick for retention.

That doesnt make it a good design for limitations. And it is punishing, since it could have been done in ways where playing multiple frames wouldnt feel like a negative. The whole game is about using different frames yet they implement a system that is pulled out of class based games with at most 1/10th of the roster to play around with on avarage. If they wanted to limit the push they should have put individual restrictions per frame instead, so you could run the content several times per week across different frames. That would have treated people with 1, 2, 5, 10 or 50 frames in use equally. And that is really as far as you need to look, the difference between someone playing 1 and someone playing 2 frames regularly, where the person playing just 1 frame will be done much faster and be able to fully enjoy what he plays.

So yes punish is the right word. Since the systems gets more and more punishing the more frames you enjoy playing.

And it isnt that I'm against limitations, I'm against the lazy and horrible implementation of limitations that is the gate we have.

[Hypernaut1]

How are people calling Archon hunts "repetitive"? That's such a disingenuous argument. What else are you doing in this game then?  It's literally a random collection of 3 missions that make up the bulk of what you do in Warframe. 

[crimsonspartan1]

30 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That really depends on which frame people us. My point is, adding multiple options would be good and if it is done through big investments that lead to more farming of something the better, in comparison to just gating that is. Atleast when expensive things are introduced, the player has the choice regarding if they find it worth investing time in or not, while a gate is just a illusionairy "look at our game, people engage with our content for this long!". If I had the option to grind freely and obtain things like a high investment anti-alarm trigger you can bet your ass I'd farm 5 of those shards for a frame so I could skip Ivara or Wukong when I want quick and 100% safe spy runs. The idea of bonus loot would be that it works like loot skills, with 5 shards being 100% chance to roll an extra time.

Sure shields on blast needs specific modding, but we will have frames that can utilize it quite well without bigger drawbacks. And depending on if the upcoming combined elemental mods will be available on all weapon types or just secondaries more build combos might pup up that can actually utilize the shield/blast effect from Topaz. And depending on how the game treats the shard, it is possible you might be able to trigger it through companions, since things like Growing Power trigger on companion weapon status application already. The crit can probably turn out quite crazy when needed in case the cap on it is high enough. A single shard will be atleast 20% extra crit per minute in survival for instance, 5 shards and you are at 100% or more crit instead at that point. There is also the question if it is additive or multiplicative, if additive it can be really fun with weapons like Knukor and other low crit chance secondaries.

That doesnt make it a good design for limitations. And it is punishing, since it could have been done in ways where playing multiple frames wouldnt feel like a negative. The whole game is about using different frames yet they implement a system that is pulled out of class based games with at most 1/10th of the roster to play around with on avarage. If they wanted to limit the push they should have put individual restrictions per frame instead, so you could run the content several times per week across different frames. That would have treated people with 1, 2, 5, 10 or 50 frames in use equally. And that is really as far as you need to look, the difference between someone playing 1 and someone playing 2 frames regularly, where the person playing just 1 frame will be done much faster and be able to fully enjoy what he plays.

So yes punish is the right word. Since the systems gets more and more punishing the more frames you enjoy playing.

And it isnt that I'm against limitations, I'm against the lazy and horrible implementation of limitations that is the gate we have.

I mean PR1D3 has a point where there's 50+ frames but i don't think even 10% of active warframe players use every single warframe all the time. If there are such people, then those people are a large minority. Archon shards aren't even required on builds. Sure they make builds a lot stronger without having to mod for it and can make squisher frames like Ivara tankier, but people can still easily do late game content without ever touching shards. I even know a few people that do end-game content who don't touch arcanes at all. 

Bonus loot shards would still very likely overshadow other shards on the sheer fact that it provides "bonus loot". People who do endless mission farms will absolutely love that and i can tell if that was the case, then recruitment chat will be filled with people who want frames fitted with those shards specifically. The only reason why Smeeta is so overused as a companion is specifically because of it's double resource buff (and Charm in general). Also "chance to not trip alarms" on shards would only ever be useful in spy missions, so i highly doubt people will actually use those shards, plus those shards would basically kill Ivara as a frame since her Prowl augment lets her bypass lasers and aside from Prowl's bonus headshot damage and her sleep arrows, Ivara does not have much going for her sadly.

I dunno why some shards have ultra specific effects like "do blast procs for overshield" or "kill 5 enemies inflicted with heat procs specifically to get specifically +1% bonus secondary crit chance". Even Crimson shards i have my gripes with. Specifically status chance for primaries, crit chance for secondaries and crit damage for melees? It's just really weird to me. I honestly would prefer it if those effects affected all weapons but perhaps get nerfed down to +10% or +15% per shard to balance it out. I cannot see anyone ever using the topaz's blast effect even if they introduced a mod that adds blast damage since overshields are super easy to get if you use pillage or Styanax's 3rd ability. If they changed it to Blast procs give overguard instead of overshields, then perhaps that would see much more use, but even if they did that change i think it would barely be touched unless people love using weapons modded with blast damage for some reason since the effect will be most effective with high-fire rate weapons with high status chance instead of AOE weapons like Tonkor or Bramma.

I will admit that the new fusion systems does screw people who haven't farmed for shards since day 1, started playing much later or don't care for the missions tied to obtaining the shards, but i still don't think they should be super easy to farm for like the average resource or even Kuva or Lua Thrax or whatever weird resources that are tied to specific content for that matter? I definitely wouldn't mind another way to obtain shards or two, but shards shouldn't be something we can just infinitely farm for without limit.

Biggest issue i believe people have is you need to sacrifice shards to get the new ones, but why can't they do something like the whole Helminth cyst things where each warframe can get infected with a cyst and once you remove it via helminth, you lose the ability to produce a new one on that frame, where instead of sacrificing shards, perhaps each independent shard has it's own version of a "cyst" where you can extract it and then fuse it with one from a different shard to produce the new fused shard, or maybe even fuse two or more from the same shard type to produce tauforged versions without having to completely remove the shards from your inventory? It would allow for people to obtain more shards and get the new fused shards without needing to permanently remove your own shards from your inventory?

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

How are people calling Archon hunts "repetitive"? That's such a disingenuous argument. What else are you doing in this game then?  It's literally a random collection of 3 missions that make up the bulk of what you do in Warframe. 

There is very little variation with the 3 missions that are selected. I really do not believe it's 3 random missions when the second mission is a defense for 4 weeks in a row.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2023-12-10 at 9:05 AM, crimsonspartan1 said:

Archon hunts are basically upgraded sorties since you get the same rewards as you can get from the sorties plus an archon shard, so unless you change how the mission works or make the "sortie rewards" a one time thing per week and the shards farmable, it'll most likely stay the same. 

Archon shards are a strong system that can buff up any frames without taking up mod slots, making it possible to farm an unlimited amount of them without limits somewhat beats the point of gradually powering up your frames. Plus we don't need to further complicate things by adding even more share types that require you to consume even more shards, (i also want to see what the Green, purple and orange shards actually offer when WITW comes out before even thinking about further fusions). 

I'm definitely up for more ways to obtain shards, we just shouldn't be able to farm them as much as we want per week with how beneficial they are to powering up our frames, and we really shouldn't further complicate things and make powercrept even more blatant with even bigger fusion shards. I'd even be up for an even harder version of archon hunts that has us fight all three archons at once, together or in order so we can get one of each shard per hunt (perhaps if DE doesn't want the OG hunts to be forgotten, they could make the regular hunts weekly and add in that special, harder fight which could be a one per month thing, so we'd get 36 more shards per year, 12 of each three shards), or instead update the kahl missions to add more missions and variety in and perhaps the ability to buy one of each shard per week as well (I'd say one of your choice but everyone would only buy crimson shards in that case? Also i have a lot of stock saved up but i only ever buy archon shards from it. Even if they don't add in more buyable shards in his store i do want to see his shop get updated with more things we can buy in general).

Just because "the point is" something doesnt mean its a good idea. 

And even if it is a good idea, that doesn't automatically mean it cant be better implemented than it already is.

The point could be end game challenge/reward/progression/further customization or the point could be to raise money for kids to go to school to learn to read. 

 

Im still not a fan of arbitrarily time gated content like steel path circuit and this. If you're trying to get kuva, or a prime set, or a specific mod or resource there's generally a connection between how much time you invest trying to get the thing and how much of the thing you have/odds of getting the thing.

 

And ive always felt like that was fair. You dont get the thing if you dont "work" for it.

But the once a week time gaiting mechanic yeets that out the window. 

 

I already have enough archon shards for the frames i actually like using including tau for my few favorite frames, so i could just be like "screw everyone else got mine". But i don't think its a reasonable thing especially for new players.

And i dont get this forum mentality of "oh so you just want everything handed to you immediately" as if theres no middle ground.

 

Apparently DE agrees though. Or they wouldnt be adding another way to get shards. We dont know if its repeatable but even if its a 1x per week cap thats 3 a week. Thats a 50% increase from what we have now. Thats certainly a good start especially if the new colors are going to require 2 shards to make. 

We dont know if theres a new way to obtain tau shards, and im hoping there is because if it takes 2 tau to make a new color tau then holy S#&$.

[crimsonspartan1]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Just because "the point is" something doesnt mean its a good idea. 

And even if it is a good idea, that doesn't automatically mean it cant be better implemented than it already is.

The point could be end game challenge/reward/progression/further customization or the point could be to raise money for kids to go to school to learn to read. 

 

Im still not a fan of arbitrarily time gated content like steel path circuit and this. If you're trying to get kuva, or a prime set, or a specific mod or resource there's generally a connection between how much time you invest trying to get the thing and how much of the thing you have/odds of getting the thing.

 

And ive always felt like that was fair. You dont get the thing if you dont "work" for it.

But the once a week time gaiting mechanic yeets that out the window. 

 

I already have enough archon shards for the frames i actually like using including tau for my few favorite frames, so i could just be like "screw everyone else got mine". But i don't think its a reasonable thing especially for new players.

And i dont get this forum mentality of "oh so you just want everything handed to you immediately" as if theres no middle ground.

 

Apparently DE agrees though. Or they wouldnt be adding another way to get shards. We dont know if its repeatable but even if its a 1x per week cap thats 3 a week. Thats a 50% increase from what we have now. Thats certainly a good start especially if the new colors are going to require 2 shards to make. 

We dont know if theres a new way to obtain tau shards, and im hoping there is because if it takes 2 tau to make a new color tau then holy S#&$.

Time-gating content does suck, but archon shards are a bit strong to just be able to casually farm them without limits. Like i'm up for more ways to get them, but we probably shouldn't be able to sit in a single endless mission for an hour and obtain like 10+ of them casually. Feel like there needs to be some sort of limit to getting them, but i'm not sure what other solutions you could go for?

I have a ton of shards on hand so i shouldn't have too much issue with the new system but for newer players or people who either don't touch archon hunts or kahl missions or have missed a lot of those missions, it does screw them over. 

I do like how DE is adding another way to get shards, although the whole fusion system can be a bit brutal though, especially if you need tauforged shards to create tauforged versions of the new shards. I wouldn't mind expending some amber shards since i usually only ever put like one tauforged amber shard on some of my builds and have boosted casting speed without needing Natural talent, or sometimes a regular amber shard or two on a frame for more energy from energy orbs, but in general i think having to sacrifice your own hard earned shards for the new ones is a bit rough, but considering the stats we've seen on the Emerald and Topaz shards so far, they might be very interesting on certain frames but i don't see many frames outside of Saryn touching emerald shards unless people want the extra corrosive stacks bonus.

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That doesnt make it a good design for limitations. And it is punishing, since it could have been done in ways where playing multiple frames wouldnt feel like a negative.

Why is that punishing?

To me, and this is just me, complaining that you can't have all of the things now isn't a valid 'negative'.

Seeing that you don't have everything (yet), and finding that a consistent negative, is a sign of not fully developed thinking. It's a point where you should genuinely look at your expectations, your ability to anticipate, and reign in the negative thoughts associated with delayed gratification.

Any toddler when given a piece of chocolate and told 'you can eat it now, but if you don't eat it and wait a little while I'll give you another piece and you can eat two' will still eat the first piece without waiting. Because toddlers only understand the now. Not being given something now, being told to wait for it, is a genuinely alien concept.

Sadly, that perspective still persists in many people into adulthood, and is being demonstrated by so many players in these threads.

DE want you to wait. You get things slowly because they want you to have them slowly. Why? To keep you coming back week after week after week.

Not to keep you coming back day after day, they already have things for that. Week after week. Maintaining those players that can only play on weekends, for example, and not giving everything to the players that can devote 40 hours in two days to the game.

DE know it's not healthy to grind for the very end-of-current-content that quickly. Not healthy for the players, and not healthy for their revenue.

So... I guess it's time for you and other players like you to do a little introspection and confront the inner toddler we all have and tell them to wait.

[crimsonspartan1]

13 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Why is that punishing?

To me, and this is just me, complaining that you can't have all of the things now isn't a valid 'negative'.

Seeing that you don't have everything (yet), and finding that a consistent negative, is a sign of not fully developed thinking. It's a point where you should genuinely look at your expectations, your ability to anticipate, and reign in the negative thoughts associated with delayed gratification.

Any toddler when given a piece of chocolate and told 'you can eat it now, but if you don't eat it and wait a little while I'll give you another piece and you can eat two' will still eat the first piece without waiting. Because toddlers only understand the now. Not being given something now, being told to wait for it, is a genuinely alien concept.

Sadly, that perspective still persists in many people into adulthood, and is being demonstrated by so many players in these threads.

DE want you to wait. You get things slowly because they want you to have them slowly. Why? To keep you coming back week after week after week.

Not to keep you coming back day after day, they already have things for that. Week after week. Maintaining those players that can only play on weekends, for example, and not giving everything to the players that can devote 40 hours in two days to the game.

DE know it's not healthy to grind for the very end-of-current-content that quickly. Not healthy for the players, and not healthy for their revenue.

So... I guess it's time for you and other players like you to do a little introspection and confront the inner toddler we all have and tell them to wait.

Unfortunately there's always going to be a set number of people in any game who want the shiny new things "now" instead of spending time to get them. Game devs (especially for free games) need a way for players to keep on coming back to the game, and if they just gave us all the new cool things right away instead of letting us actually earn them, then everyone's going to mash the game out for the stuff, leave until new content comes out and then rinse and repeat.

It's why archon shards are limited, why syndicate standing has a daily cap, why sorties rotate daily, etc. 

[SneakyErvin]

23 hours ago, crimsonspartan1 said:

I mean PR1D3 has a point where there's 50+ frames but i don't think even 10% of active warframe players use every single warframe all the time. If there are such people, then those people are a large minority. Archon shards aren't even required on builds. Sure they make builds a lot stronger without having to mod for it and can make squisher frames like Ivara tankier, but people can still easily do late game content without ever touching shards. I even know a few people that do end-game content who don't touch arcanes at all. 

Bonus loot shards would still very likely overshadow other shards on the sheer fact that it provides "bonus loot". People who do endless mission farms will absolutely love that and i can tell if that was the case, then recruitment chat will be filled with people who want frames fitted with those shards specifically. The only reason why Smeeta is so overused as a companion is specifically because of it's double resource buff (and Charm in general). Also "chance to not trip alarms" on shards would only ever be useful in spy missions, so i highly doubt people will actually use those shards, plus those shards would basically kill Ivara as a frame since her Prowl augment lets her bypass lasers and aside from Prowl's bonus headshot damage and her sleep arrows, Ivara does not have much going for her sadly.

I dunno why some shards have ultra specific effects like "do blast procs for overshield" or "kill 5 enemies inflicted with heat procs specifically to get specifically +1% bonus secondary crit chance". Even Crimson shards i have my gripes with. Specifically status chance for primaries, crit chance for secondaries and crit damage for melees? It's just really weird to me. I honestly would prefer it if those effects affected all weapons but perhaps get nerfed down to +10% or +15% per shard to balance it out. I cannot see anyone ever using the topaz's blast effect even if they introduced a mod that adds blast damage since overshields are super easy to get if you use pillage or Styanax's 3rd ability. If they changed it to Blast procs give overguard instead of overshields, then perhaps that would see much more use, but even if they did that change i think it would barely be touched unless people love using weapons modded with blast damage for some reason since the effect will be most effective with high-fire rate weapons with high status chance instead of AOE weapons like Tonkor or Bramma.

I will admit that the new fusion systems does screw people who haven't farmed for shards since day 1, started playing much later or don't care for the missions tied to obtaining the shards, but i still don't think they should be super easy to farm for like the average resource or even Kuva or Lua Thrax or whatever weird resources that are tied to specific content for that matter? I definitely wouldn't mind another way to obtain shards or two, but shards shouldn't be something we can just infinitely farm for without limit.

Biggest issue i believe people have is you need to sacrifice shards to get the new ones, but why can't they do something like the whole Helminth cyst things where each warframe can get infected with a cyst and once you remove it via helminth, you lose the ability to produce a new one on that frame, where instead of sacrificing shards, perhaps each independent shard has it's own version of a "cyst" where you can extract it and then fuse it with one from a different shard to produce the new fused shard, or maybe even fuse two or more from the same shard type to produce tauforged versions without having to completely remove the shards from your inventory? It would allow for people to obtain more shards and get the new fused shards without needing to permanently remove your own shards from your inventory?

But it isnt about the total number, it is about the simple fact of playing more frame than someone else regularly. 50 is his number, not mine, just to further exaggerate his "point". The difference becomes noticable even at just a few frames between players. It also has nothing to do with thing becoming easier or not, it is as I said about being able to fully enjoy the frames that you play i.e min-maxing them, gearing them out fully etc.

Sure for some, but that would be their choice and no actual problem. What is the difference if a simple red, blue or yellow shard trumps all other shards for some, while a combined one trumps all others for someone else? It is about choice. And why would people want frames with only such shards? You dont see "looking for 3 more Hydroid/KHora/Necros" for instance. And the shards would work like those frames i.e no stacking. Someone could on the other hand enjoy a frame besides Hydroid, Khora and Necros. I mean the mechanics are already there and we are far from seeing a Khora, Hydroid or Necros in every group or lfg message in chat. As to Blast, it all depends on your weapon and frame. Look at someone like Hydroid, or any other frame that can access corrosive/armor strip and viral in their kit while making use of a high RoF/status weapon. They'll alll be able to give up a combined element in favor of Blast to be able to utilize a single shard for constant shield replenishment. So it will be like all other shard stats, some frames use them, others dont. I still havent decided if I'm gonna skip gas+cold for blast+toxin on my Hydroid's Torid. And if the new combined mods come for primaries aswell and blast is one of them, then the option to use the shard spreads to more parts of the roster.

I'm not sure how you can even take the step all the way to common resources when someone has simply mentioned easier to obtain. Heck I even included that they should be random drops from killing archons. It's a long long long long long way between that and avarage resources, Kuva or Thrax plasm. Think of frame blueprints or weapons, or you wanting that very specific relic, arcane or mod from some rotation. It would be like that. And while it indeed sucks for people who havent done the weekly hunts or garrison missions for shards, those that have ignored parts of it willingly only have themselves to blame. Many people told them at the release of veilbreaker when they said they'd ignore Kahl "cos normal shards only" that doing the content anyways would be smart. Since something was bound to be added eventually since it is in the end a GaaS game with an MMO mindset.

I have no real issue with fusion, not now atleast since we are so far into the shard system that many have shards piled up and unused. And we are getting more ways to get shards aswell so less of a problem. Plus if done right, the new addition to obtaining shards is designed around the idea of us using them to fuse, so the amount we can get is balanced around the idea that X amount is supposedly fused per week. It might however be way to restrictive aswell. But we should also remember that the new shards are far more specific in use and not like blue, yellow and red. With the exception of the green so far due to the stack count increase to corrosive, which can be used on the whole roster if people want to bring back the old corrosive meta. But outside of that the other stats seem far more niche. And since the use is so niche for the most part, I'll likely not fuse much at all and instead just wait for them to drop from the new content. I might fuse a single green Tau for Saryn if we can obtain Tau, and they arent just used as meterials that end up as normals either way. And later down the line I'll probably make another green Tau for my Citrine, unless they can also drop from the new activities. I kinda hope that red, blue and yellow can be obtained from the new activities aswell since as far as we know we cant break down emerald, topaz and violet.

15 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Why is that punishing?

To me, and this is just me, complaining that you can't have all of the things now isn't a valid 'negative'.

Seeing that you don't have everything (yet), and finding that a consistent negative, is a sign of not fully developed thinking. It's a point where you should genuinely look at your expectations, your ability to anticipate, and reign in the negative thoughts associated with delayed gratification.

Any toddler when given a piece of chocolate and told 'you can eat it now, but if you don't eat it and wait a little while I'll give you another piece and you can eat two' will still eat the first piece without waiting. Because toddlers only understand the now. Not being given something now, being told to wait for it, is a genuinely alien concept.

Sadly, that perspective still persists in many people into adulthood, and is being demonstrated by so many players in these threads.

DE want you to wait. You get things slowly because they want you to have them slowly. Why? To keep you coming back week after week after week.

Not to keep you coming back day after day, they already have things for that. Week after week. Maintaining those players that can only play on weekends, for example, and not giving everything to the players that can devote 40 hours in two days to the game.

DE know it's not healthy to grind for the very end-of-current-content that quickly. Not healthy for the players, and not healthy for their revenue.

So... I guess it's time for you and other players like you to do a little introspection and confront the inner toddler we all have and tell them to wait.

Because it is since it effectively puts limitations on a certain type of playstyle and not another.

It isnt about having all things now, never has. It is about how the system effectively treats a certain type of playstyle differently from another. What is the reason to limit someone that likes 3 frames more than the player that only plays 1? Does the player that enjoys 3 frames instead of one somehow obtain excess power compared to the "main" frame player? What would be the harm in allowing the player playing 3 frames to progress all 3 frames throughout a week? He'd still spend 3 times the time on what he enjoys compared to the player that enjoys just 1. So again, if you read what is written it isnt about having things now, since there is clearly no issue with investing the time into the activites if the option to do so was there.

Your idea that this is about having it now along with the toddler analogy means you dont really grasp what is asked. I dont mind us having to spend weeks on a frame to gear it out, I mind us not being able to work on several frames during those weeks if we enjoy more than one. Which means it isnt a question about "now", since no one asks to be able to gear out a frame in a single day by farming over and over on that frame. It is about having the option to work on several different frames and getting to the same point of enjoyment with those 3 that someone else gets from 1. No one asks to get more powerful quicker, what is asked for is getting to the same level of enjoyment as someone else no matter the number of frames someone enjoys. Hence why the  current system is horribly implemented when instead they could have added a system where each frame owned can progress in the system each week individually.

There is no reason to have some players wait excessively longer than others, since that is what the current system does, where it goes from 5 weeks up to 15 weeks just to get the normal shards you might want for a single frame.

And to keep player coming back can be solved in so many other ways, a time gate does not solve it. We can already see that now where we have many people just ignoring Kahl for instance. What would incentivice people to do that content would be... wait for it... more shards types and other mechanics to spend shards on... oh wait, isnt that what we are getting this upcoming patch? Oh why yes it is! Which shows that players have been done with their gate system for long while us that still sit with frames we might want to gear out need to do it. So their system didnt really do much to keep players coming back. Howerver us that were punished by wanting to gear out more frames to enjoy like those others enjoy their smaller roster of active frames were given the bonus of having shards stocked up for the coming system. Which in itself is also a problem with the gate, since people that skipped it after being done with their chosen frames are now behind on a massive amount of shards they could have potentially used in the new system, with no way of going back to catch back up. Which is also a flaw that sets newer players even further behind. Something that DE also patched regarding other pieces of activities within WF in the same freakin patch that introduced veilbreaker and its silly gate.

As to the bolded part. Do you even keep up with the intent of DE? You claim DE doesnt want it, while at the same time they tried to speed up that grind in the Veilbreaker patch, not to mention that WitW will make it even more probable that people grind to the end quickly by streamlining quests, all in order so people can hit that end of current content as quickly as possible. Even to the point where they had people within DE considering to sell skips so people could get to the grinding quicker. People feeling forever beind as they likely do with the Veilbreaker system is probably a bigger hit to their revenue and player health/interest.

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Because it is since it effectively puts limitations on a certain type of playstyle and not another.

At what point does a game that let frames with basic modding and good gear reach level cap in endless modes, 'put limitations' on those frames by not offering them even more power for a couple of months instead of right now?

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It isnt about having all things now, never has.

Except that's the result of this discussion.

All of your talk about 'limiting play styles' amounts to this: You want these things available now instead of in two or three months.

The frames you want to put archon shards on will be stronger then, but that doesn't mean they're not strong now. They can still do almost everything you want them to do, in fact probably all of what you want them to do, just less conveniently.

You can still enjoy those frames as they are right now, they're not 'lesser' just 'not completely optimised'.

That isn't a punishment, that isn't a limitation. It's just not exactly how you want it immediately upon you wanting it.

Why do you need to work on more than one frame at once? Because you like using more than one frame at once? So what? You can still use those frames, just not in the specific, optimised way you want them.

Before the archon shards existed, you had them completely optimised to where they did what you wanted them to do. Did they suddenly, magically, stop doing that when Archon Shards were invented? No. They still do that, and you can still enjoy the game with them.

If you played those frames before, you can still play those frames now. Nothing is stopping you, nothing is limiting you from enjoying them.

It genuinely doesn't matter that you just want 'faster' instead of 'now', because 'faster' is exactly the same lack of patience and ability to enjoy things over time.

[crimsonspartan1]

Alright so our new way of obtaining shards is by running the Netracell missions. 

Haven't tried them out yet, but you can run the mission 5 times a week, regular archon shards are a common reward while tauforged charges are a rare reward, so basically we have a way to obtain shards which is purely rng based because there are also melee arcanes and melee weapon adapters in the reward list. 

I like that we have new ways to get them, i'm definitely not a fan that it's heavily rng based since you could potentially do all 5 runs and not get a single shard from it

[SneakyErvin]

On 2023-12-13 at 7:21 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

At what point does a game that let frames with basic modding and good gear reach level cap in endless modes, 'put limitations' on those frames by not offering them even more power for a couple of months instead of right now?

You clearly do not get the point at all. It isnt about the power between frames etc. It is about how different playstyles get to interact with the system. People that enjoy several frames are penalized by how it is set up. It doesnt matter what content we can do or not, it is about enjoying the #*!%ing system to its fullest no matter what #*!%ing playstyle you prefer, main or altoholic. Not sure how much clearer I can make it.

On 2023-12-13 at 7:21 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Why do you need to work on more than one frame at once? Because you like using more than one frame at once? So what? You can still use those frames, just not in the specific, optimised way you want them.

Which means there are limitation and punishment placed on those who enjoy more frames than someone else. It is as simple as that. It shouldnt matter if you want to enjoy 1, 5 or 10 frames, all should have the same potential and not be gated by time. Since there is no further power added to your "account" by gearing more frames, it is simply a choice and a matter of enjoyment, so no reason to have any limitation beyond that which they deem fit to min-max 1 frame since that is the power ceiling they wanna gate. I would for instance not mind if shards were bound to frames if it ment I could work on more frames per week. Both in order to enjoy more frames and the content itself. Plus it would remove a layer of cheese if we required to clear archons with the frame that wants to use the shard.

23 hours ago, crimsonspartan1 said:

Alright so our new way of obtaining shards is by running the Netracell missions. 

Haven't tried them out yet, but you can run the mission 5 times a week, regular archon shards are a common reward while tauforged charges are a rare reward, so basically we have a way to obtain shards which is purely rng based because there are also melee arcanes and melee weapon adapters in the reward list. 

I like that we have new ways to get them, i'm definitely not a fan that it's heavily rng based since you could potentially do all 5 runs and not get a single shard from it

The new ways of getting them utterly suck. They managed to make the system worse than it was when Veilbreaker released, which is quite an achievment to pull off. Now we dont only have RNG on Tau per player, now we have RNG per shard even if each player invests the same exact amount of effort. So #*!%ed up I honestly cant believe it. Plus the mode is practically just exterminate with new dragon key modifiers, some consoles and 2 priority targets that literally do nothing. We are killing poor little carpenter/builder drones.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2023-12-10 at 7:15 AM, crimsonspartan1 said:

The mindset of a lot of people is that they want things "now" instead of gradually obtaining said things over time. They aren't patient, they want to put shards on all of their frames straight away instead of gradually obtaining them over time, and if they can't do things immediately, they get frustrated.

On one end 2 per week isn't much and it does require you to constantly do the Kahl weekly and Archon hunts, and you can only get two of each shard every three weeks (x2 azure one week, 1x crimson and amber the next week and the week after and then repeat the cycle) so it can take a while if you want five of a single shard type on a singular frame, less if you mix and match and even more if you're aiming for all tauforged shards. On the other end, the whole point of the shards is for people to gradually obtain them to power up their frames of choice instead of obtaining multiple shards per week to power up 3+ frames at a time. 

While i'm not against increasing the ways to obtain shards, we shouldn't be able to farm 6+ shards with ease in just a few days or a single week.

Youre right. This is a binary, black and white dichotomy between mature, patient adults who are willing to do something over a given period of time and entitled crybabies who just want GIMME GIMME GIMME everything right bloody now.

 

Christ i am so tired of seeing this false dichotomy thrown about here. 

 

I honestly dont know where this mentality comes from ive never seen anything like it in a gaming community before. Is it white knighting? Just "i must shield the fair maiden(de) from critisism"? Or is it just edgy contrarianism?

 

This think that having something artificially and arbitrarily time gated for an exorbitant amount of time is True Good and Virtuous just because and anyone who disagrees "wants everything now". 

 

Personally i dont get what the huge benefit is to having shards time gated *period*. Let alone something like 1 or 2 a week. 

If anything its bad for the game because then its an incentive to just "well i guess i'll only use X frame now because it has shards and the rest dont".