Lets talk about Infusion Archon Crystal

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

14 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Youre right. This is a binary, black and white dichotomy between mature, patient adults who are willing to do something over a given period of time and entitled crybabies who just want GIMME GIMME GIMME everything right bloody now.

 

Christ i am so tired of seeing this false dichotomy thrown about here. 

 

I honestly dont know where this mentality comes from ive never seen anything like it in a gaming community before. Is it white knighting? Just "i must shield the fair maiden(de) from critisism"? Or is it just edgy contrarianism?

 

This think that having something artificially and arbitrarily time gated for an exorbitant amount of time is True Good and Virtuous just because and anyone who disagrees "wants everything now". 

 

Personally i dont get what the huge benefit is to having shards time gated *period*. Let alone something like 1 or 2 a week. 

If anything its bad for the game because then its an incentive to just "well i guess i'll only use X frame now because it has shards and the rest dont".

Counter point is what is the huge detriment to there being a limitation on this.  It all looks very intentional on DE's part. 

It looks like this newer system is DE's attempt at compromise.  Allowing more chances at more shards. However, the limitation of not wanting players to get them quickly is still present. I can only guess to the reasoning.  However, would you accept that reasoning?  At minimum Archon shards being a long term time limited farm appears to be in DE's best interest.  With their quick acquisition being in the players'. These two things are in direct odd's with each other. 

So where do we go from here?

[crimsonspartan1]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

The new ways of getting them utterly suck. They managed to make the system worse than it was when Veilbreaker released, which is quite an achievment to pull off. Now we dont only have RNG on Tau per player, now we have RNG per shard even if each player invests the same exact amount of effort. So #*!%ed up I honestly cant believe it. Plus the mode is practically just exterminate with new dragon key modifiers, some consoles and 2 priority targets that literally do nothing. We are killing poor little carpenter/builder drones.

I don't like it that much either but i'm glad there's at least ways to get more shards now. Just that now if you do both archon hunts and kahl weekly and do the necracell missions, you get 2 shards minimum and a maximum of 7, but only if you're extremely lucky to get shards on all 5 drops, and all of those have odds of being tauforged. Honestly would've preferred having a way to guarantee an additional shard or two, but unless DE changes some things, this is what we have now, so basically we have to just pray that we get lucky

43 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Youre right. This is a binary, black and white dichotomy between mature, patient adults who are willing to do something over a given period of time and entitled crybabies who just want GIMME GIMME GIMME everything right bloody now.

 

Christ i am so tired of seeing this false dichotomy thrown about here. 

 

I honestly dont know where this mentality comes from ive never seen anything like it in a gaming community before. Is it white knighting? Just "i must shield the fair maiden(de) from critisism"? Or is it just edgy contrarianism?

 

This think that having something artificially and arbitrarily time gated for an exorbitant amount of time is True Good and Virtuous just because and anyone who disagrees "wants everything now". 

 

Personally i dont get what the huge benefit is to having shards time gated *period*. Let alone something like 1 or 2 a week. 

If anything its bad for the game because then its an incentive to just "well i guess i'll only use X frame now because it has shards and the rest dont".

Like i'm not a big fan of time-gating either, but that's just how games be, especially free ones. If we could just run the mission infinitely or sit in a single mission for an hour or two and rack up 100+ archon shards in less then a day, then what's going to happen is you'll have people who do just that and then be like "i got nothing to do in warframe, i'll come back next update". I like DE as a company but they have made many, many mistakes. I'm not being like "Oh DE is always in the right and everyone who disagrees lacks patience", i'm mainly just stating my own opinion, and i have seen and know of many people who lack patience, in this game, in other games and even irl. It's just how some people are.

Warframe's a live-service game so there needs to be ways to get players to keep on coming back, even if it sucks. I'd like archon shards to be more easily accessible, but we shouldn't be able to obtain them as easily as the average resource, especially with how strong they can be (pretty strong bonuses that can make frames more powerful and tanky without having to take up modding space for it is kind of crazy. They aren't massive buffs unless you put multiple of the same shard on one build, but doing things like making low armor frames like Ivara have over 700 armor without mods and adding +50% to any warframe is very good). I like that they added in a new way to get archon shards this update, but I really do dislike that it's up to complete rng as to if you even get a shard from Necracell missions or not, rng in regards to what shard you even get and rng if you get a tauforged or not. 

IMO there isn't really a "proper way" to do a system like archon shards i feel like? Make it super easy to get them and people will just farm them to get shards in-masses and then people are going to lose incentive to play, limit it with time-gating and weekly caps and people will feel restrained, and newer players will not get to experience systems like archon shards and the new shard fusion system properly unless they spend weeks / months straight doing the same few missions for them. I would most certainly be up for a way to obtain 2-4 more guaranteed shards per week, i just don't think it makes sense for it to be infinitely farmable, but with the whole "needing to remove two of your own shards to make a singular new shard" thing, i definitely understand why people want to be able to obtain multiple shards on a regular basis.

[angel_bee]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

Counter point is what is the huge detriment to there being a limitation on this.  It all looks very intentional on DE's part. 

It looks like this newer system is DE's attempt at compromise.  Allowing more chances at more shards. However, the limitation of not wanting players to get them quickly is still present. I can only guess to the reasoning.  However, would you accept that reasoning?  At minimum Archon shards being a long term time limited farm appears to be in DE's best interest.  With their quick acquisition being in the players'. These two things are in direct odd's with each other. 

So where do we go from here?

I feel like if missions involving archon shards were not time gated, it would make everyone alot happier, even if the chance of getting a shard is lowered significantly, and I daresay, down to drop chances on par with Ephemeras.

Players who are invested in Warframe in the long run are usually happy with grinding at their own pace, having felt like they've "worked to earn it".

It seems like such a simple solution that would really nicely complement the existing Kahl and Archon Hunt system such that on top of getting the existing tiny trickle of shards every week, you can get more if you're willing to put in the work.

[angel_bee]

And I would like to add that timegating what is effectively 5 dice rolls per week really messes people up, because instead of being able to call it quits on your own terms (e.g. taking a break after a few unlucky radshares and coming back later), now it feels like the system is telling you what pace you should do.

It feels very limiting and depressing for a game that practically encourages cumulative self improvement.

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Which means there are limitation and punishment placed on those who enjoy more frames than someone else. It is as simple as that. It shouldnt matter if you want to enjoy 1, 5 or 10 frames, all should have the same potential and not be gated by time.

This is exactly the view point I'm calling into question.

You're literally asking for there not to be a time gate on deliberately and purposefully time gated content.

That is simultaneously beating a dead horse and complete toddler mentality.

You are supposed to experience this content slowly.

Every player that likes more than one frame, be it five, ten, or all fifty five of them, experiences the game at the exact same rate.

That is, to put it simply, absolutely fair. Because the rewards are the same for every player, whether we have the patience for a time gate or not.

Since every player is time gated, then it doesn't matter what your play style is, it's fair to all players. Some players will stop engaging with the system sooner than others. Ones that engage in the system long enough for only one or two frames are not inherently at an advantage over players that engage long enough for fifty frames, they're just lazier, or content not to push out of their comfort zone, or both.

They don't get any more, or any less, power than you do out of this. If they only max out two frames, that's them limiting themselves, not you being limited by the game.

You want the power this system offers for all of the frames you like? You wait and you play the missions. Same as everyone else. This isn't 'punishing' you by making you take the required amount of time to get the things you want.

Things don't have to be time gated, but there is a stated and deliberate reason why they are. And repeating that they 'shouldn't' is just sitting on the floor having a tantrum.

In point of fact, DE have already implemented a new system to allow more Archon Shards to be earned in a week. Notably, it's still slow. And it requires similar time investment to getting the base two that we were able to get before.

So go do it. You got what you wanted, what are you still complaining about?

But one more point:

3 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

This think that having something artificially and arbitrarily time gated for an exorbitant amount of time is True Good and Virtuous just because and anyone who disagrees "wants everything now". 

Heh, would that it were so clear cut.

What we have here is a case of the 'gimme now' and everyone else pointing out to them that shouting about it means absolutely nothing.

We basically just want the toddlers to stop crying, because DE aren't even listening.

Time gates aren't the best mechanic around, but they do what the developers intend: Force players to come back week on week if they want the new shiny thing. That's all that time gates are and all they ever have been. Warframe is built on them, you have to wait for nearly everything, and paying Plat to skip some things doesn't actually fix most of the time gates in the game.

A free-to-play game is literally monetised by having players stay in the game, and keep coming back to it, long enough to convince them to pay.

We know that's how this works, so do you, and DE definitely do as well. Because they even allowed non-paying players to trade Plat away from the paying players, which gets the paying players to go pay for more.

And that's also why so many time gates aren't skippable. Daily Standing, resource grinds, Mastery Rank tests being day-gated, Nightwave weekly/daily acts. 

DE wants to keep us coming back. It doesn't matter if it's only for twenty minutes per session, or an hour or two on the weekend, or grinding non stop for days.

All they want is to have us come back, for the paying players to be tempted to pay more, and for the non-paying players to drain the currency from the ones that did already pay.

So with that said...

We just want to talk a bit of sense into the other players. DE won't ever get rid of these time gates, because they serve their purpose. Whether any of us like them or not. The adults in the room are largely just tired, and want there to be a little peace.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

44 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

This is exactly the view point I'm calling into question.

You're literally asking for there not to be a time gate on deliberately and purposefully time gated content.

That is simultaneously beating a dead horse and complete toddler mentality.

You are supposed to experience this content slowly.

Every player that likes more than one frame, be it five, ten, or all fifty five of them, experiences the game at the exact same rate.

That is, to put it simply, absolutely fair. Because the rewards are the same for every player, whether we have the patience for a time gate or not.

Since every player is time gated, then it doesn't matter what your play style is, it's fair to all players. Some players will stop engaging with the system sooner than others. Ones that engage in the system long enough for only one or two frames are not inherently at an advantage over players that engage long enough for fifty frames, they're just lazier, or content not to push out of their comfort zone, or both.

They don't get any more, or any less, power than you do out of this. If they only max out two frames, that's them limiting themselves, not you being limited by the game.

You want the power this system offers for all of the frames you like? You wait and you play the missions. Same as everyone else. This isn't 'punishing' you by making you take the required amount of time to get the things you want.

Things don't have to be time gated, but there is a stated and deliberate reason why they are. And repeating that they 'shouldn't' is just sitting on the floor having a tantrum.

In point of fact, DE have already implemented a new system to allow more Archon Shards to be earned in a week. Notably, it's still slow. And it requires similar time investment to getting the base two that we were able to get before.

So go do it. You got what you wanted, what are you still complaining about?

But one more point:

Heh, would that it were so clear cut.

What we have here is a case of the 'gimme now' and everyone else pointing out to them that shouting about it means absolutely nothing.

We basically just want the toddlers to stop crying, because DE aren't even listening.

Time gates aren't the best mechanic around, but they do what the developers intend: Force players to come back week on week if they want the new shiny thing. That's all that time gates are and all they ever have been. Warframe is built on them, you have to wait for nearly everything, and paying Plat to skip some things doesn't actually fix most of the time gates in the game.

A free-to-play game is literally monetised by having players stay in the game, and keep coming back to it, long enough to convince them to pay.

We know that's how this works, so do you, and DE definitely do as well. Because they even allowed non-paying players to trade Plat away from the paying players, which gets the paying players to go pay for more.

And that's also why so many time gates aren't skippable. Daily Standing, resource grinds, Mastery Rank tests being day-gated, Nightwave weekly/daily acts. 

DE wants to keep us coming back. It doesn't matter if it's only for twenty minutes per session, or an hour or two on the weekend, or grinding non stop for days.

All they want is to have us come back, for the paying players to be tempted to pay more, and for the non-paying players to drain the currency from the ones that did already pay.

So with that said...

We just want to talk a bit of sense into the other players. DE won't ever get rid of these time gates, because they serve their purpose. Whether any of us like them or not. The adults in the room are largely just tired, and want there to be a little peace.

"The adults in the room". Yeah we're done here.

I think the adult thing to do would be to realize you're not here for a reasonable, friendly conversation. You're here to be snarky and condescending about something you seem to have strong feelings about. (This isnt about logic anymore. Good day sir. 

[angel_bee]

15 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

This is exactly the view point I'm calling into question.

You're literally asking for there not to be a time gate on deliberately and purposefully time gated content.

...

if I'm not wrong, the whole point of a game is for players to have fun right?

if players who play more frames want to work harder to get more shards to improve their loadouts, I feel like it's in the game's best interests to at least make it feel like those who are readily willing to work harder can do so at their own pace, as opposed to placing everyone in a box of the same size regardless of whether it's comfortable.

what you speak of is equality. however, what is really needed is an equitable system, which is the desired outcome for people raising these issues.

To learn more: https://www.health.com/mind-body/health-diversity-inclusion/equity-vs-equality

a good game design should be able to accommodate for and be aligned to the diverse needs and playstyles of its target player demographic, which naturally comprises of people who constantly seek to improve their loadouts.

Edited December 15, 2023 by angel_bee

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You're literally asking for there not to be a time gate on deliberately and purposefully time gated content.

No lol really I'm not. Hence why I gave the example of having individual gates per frame, like how actual characters i.e alts are treated in practically any other RPG. And in a game like WF where they look at it all like a tool box, being able to progress several different tools should be quite an obvious design approach.

15 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You are supposed to experience this content slowly.

Every player that likes more than one frame, be it five, ten, or all fifty five of them, experiences the game at the exact same rate.

And we still would, at the same rate as a player completely focused on a single "main" frame.

And no, that is not true. If you focus on 1 you can look at getting done in a maximum of 15 weeks depending on shard spread for the frame you like. If you have 2 frames you enjoy you are suddenly looking up to 30 weeks depending on the spread of shards you want and so on the more frames you enjoy playing regularly. Then if we add in Tau here, which I'm not even asking for to be farmable we are looking at a further gap going from 1 frame and upwards in use.

15 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

That is, to put it simply, absolutely fair. Because the rewards are the same for every player, whether we have the patience for a time gate or not.

Which is a further things that adds to the gap between players, since it fully depends on what shards you actually want. Where some players may be done in 5 weeks and others in 15 with just 1 frame. That isnt fair either, that is another stupid design decision that I didnt even want to bring up. But since you went with "absolutely fair" I had to point that out. A fair system would have allowed us to pick which color we want each week, that way it would be absolutely fair no matter which combination you want.

15 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You want the power this system offers for all of the frames you like? You wait and you play the missions. Same as everyone else. This isn't 'punishing' you by making you take the required amount of time to get the things you want.

But no one is asking to not have to play the missions. I'm asking to be able to play it more while still being gated per frame. And there is no "required amount of time", it is simply a gate that tell us no. We arent asking to shorten time spent on missions. Even though you for some odd reason seem to think the gate = time spent getting an item, that just isnt how it is. We still only spend miniscule time on the actual content. We spend far less on it due to the gate than what we would have if it was gate per frame or ungated. 

You are aware that if WF lasts another 10 years it will result in the content they spent so much time and resources on creating will only have been played roughly 520 times by a person that has been here for every hunt since it released. Which would add up to barely 200h played over 10 years. I spent around twice that time on Duviri over the course of 3 months. I thought you said DE wanted us to play Veilbreaker alot? Clearly that isnt the case.

16 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

n point of fact, DE have already implemented a new system to allow more Archon Shards to be earned in a week. Notably, it's still slow. And it requires similar time investment to getting the base two that we were able to get before.

So go do it. You got what you wanted, what are you still complaining about?

That system did not improve a single thing, it actually managed to end up making it far far worse across the board and added further unfairness due to the heavy RNG on EVERYTHING shard related in that mode. So someone came out of this week with 5x shards of various colors and quality, which someone else got none and others something in between. Yuz, clearly fair system! Such improvement, much wow.

16 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Time gates aren't the best mechanic around, but they do what the developers intend: Force players to come back week on week if they want the new shiny thing. That's all that time gates are and all they ever have been. Warframe is built on them, you have to wait for nearly everything, and paying Plat to skip some things doesn't actually fix most of the time gates in the game.

Which if you do the math results in the content getting utilized and replayed far far less than any other form of setup. Saying "aren't the best" is quite an understatement. They are the worst form of longevity mechanic, since it just results in artificial "we see activity in our content for this many years" reports to slap in the face of "media" and potential investors and owners. And in the case of Veilbreaker and when it went live, it is kinda clear this approach is rooted in making the game more mobile and less player friendly, since this type of gate is a typical mobile game gate adopted from S#&$ty asian MMOs of the past.

16 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And that's also why so many time gates aren't skippable. Daily Standing, resource grinds, Mastery Rank tests being day-gated, Nightwave weekly/daily acts. 

That you bring this up in a discussion regarding shards is concerning, since you clearly dont see what makes the shard gate an issue while NW, Standing and so on arent. Those are finite systems, shards are infinite more or less, so there is no way for anyone to be able to catch up either due to how the gate works. Which in itself can be a massive turn off for newer players that DE according to you want to hook and have come back weekly or daily with activities. Imagine 2 more years down the line when a vet sits with 156+ weeks worth of shards and a new player starts looking around to see how long it will take him to catch up, then realizes he cant and that it will take him 3 years to get to that point, at which point the vet will still have 2x as many shards to play around with. That is if we dont get more types of fusions as shard dumps aswell, which would result in further disappointment for a new(er) player.

Also, where the hell do you find any gates tied to resource grinds?

[Skoomaseller]

another archon shard acquisition topic, another round of people accusing those bringing it up as "whiny babies who want everything NOW NOW NOW!!!" I don't even understand where this sentiment comes from. We just want to provide feedback. Yes there are genuinely some with those sentiments but I hardly believe it is the overwhelming majority.

"w-well you don't NEED IT!!!!" but it is in the game and serves as an upgrade. It is literally the point of every update. Of course I want it.  People complained about energize's rarity over the years and now we have arcane dissolution which, while not a perfect solution, is pretty good. Complaining works... eventually.

Some people want the game to be the best it can be. Not everyone is a demanding baby, and blanketing/dismissing even the slightest criticisms of the various farming systems in game as... petulant demands, is stupid.

Now, Netracells.

I am not sure what the drop rate is for normal/tauforged shards but it seems/feels like the common drop pool doesn't have even chances between the two rewards. In it, you get either a melee arcane, or an archon shard. But doing all 5 this week only got me 5 melee arcanes.

I could be wrong of course, and perhaps it's S#&$ RNG at work.

Really wish they didn't dilute the common reward pool. It feels like a one step forward, one step back kinda deal.

They've already limited netracells to 5 per week, and also there are other rewards in more rarer tiers which itself already dilutes the reward pool, so I don't see any good reason why they had to do this for the common drop pool, ESPECIALLY now that we have archon shard fusing.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Skoomaseller

[Birdframe_Prime]

17 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

You're here to be snarky and condescending about something you seem to have strong feelings about.

I'm here because I made a relevant comment about how the entire discussion is about entitlement (the people that feel they have it versus the people that are telling them they shouldn't) instead of recognising that DE just wants to keep people coming back and is perfectly willing to push the limits of what people find fun.

And then so many people wanted to debate it by trying to make the point about things that don't actually hold any sway in the matter. Defending the point that the entitlement doesn't, and never will, matter in either direction, has been the main point.

This isn't me specifically arguing with anyone. Not really, although I don't mind the argument ^^

This is me pointing out the exact, known, documented, and self-admitted views of the developers on the topic.

People claiming that it's about fun, like @angel_bee or people that keep trying to find new ways to defend their greed, like @SneakyErvin are just... not getting the point.

Which most people would find frustrating. If anything, I enjoy playing the equivalent of Chicken on the topic where eventually one of us will give up, and it's only a matter of how long they're prepared to keep commenting back.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

5 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

another archon shard acquisition topic, another round of people accusing those bringing it up as "whiny babies who want everything NOW NOW NOW!!!" I don't even understand where this sentiment comes from. We just want to provide feedback. Yes there are genuinely some with those sentiments but I hardly believe it is the overwhelming majority.

"w-well you don't NEED IT!!!!" but it is in the game and serves as an upgrade. It is literally the point of every update. Of course I want it.  People complained about energize's rarity over the years and now we have arcane dissolution which, while not a perfect solution, is pretty good. Complaining works... eventually.

Some people want the game to be the best it can be. Not everyone is a demanding baby, and blanketing/dismissing even the slightest criticisms of the various farming systems in game as... petulant demands, is stupid.

Not to mention the Irony of putting yourself on a Maturity Pedestal (tm) and making it out like *everyone else* is a crybaby throwing a temper tantrum, regardless of what they say or how they say it. 

"The adults in the room". Pfft. Self awareness be damned apparently.

 

Im glad DE seemed to not listen to them, though. We know have a tau pity system for the archon hunts despite them railing against it, and we now have a shot at ((potentially)) up to 5 more shards including tau per week although i dont know what the odds are. 

 

Im also glad for the arcane dissolution feature. I already have all the eidolon arcanes (the good ones/ones i care about, grace energize etc), but i always felt like it was a pretty big oof for new players how hard those arcanes are to get compared to the others. 

 

To even have a chance at *one* energize you have to capture the third eidolon, it can only be done at night, most squads wont even want to play with you unless you have specific meta builds, because of the time pressure theres probably more toxicity there than anywhere else in the game, and buying them plat wise is a big ask for newer players when the going rate is 3k+ (on console at least).

 

They managed to still keep it a rare-feeling thing while making an alternate path available. You could conveivably get it from farming acolytes now, which is a lot less of a pain in the ass and alot more people can do it. 

 

 

[Hexerin]

5 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

I am not sure what the drop rate is for normal/tauforged shards but it seems/feels like the common drop pool doesn't have even chances between the two rewards.

That's the norm in these bounty-style tables. The desirable reward(s), despite being in the same tier, have significantly lower rates (but not lower than the rates of the next tier). This is naturally balanced by these being infinitely repeatable if the player chooses to keep doing the content... which is where the issue arises for Netracells, because of the arbitrary limitation of 5 runs per week imposed on it. DE really shat the bed on this one.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2023-12-10 at 5:15 AM, crimsonspartan1 said:

The mindset of a lot of people is that they want things "now" instead of gradually obtaining said things over time. They aren't patient, they want to put shards on all of their frames straight away instead of gradually obtaining them over time, and if they can't do things immediately, they get frustrated.

On one end 2 per week isn't much and it does require you to constantly do the Kahl weekly and Archon hunts, and you can only get two of each shard every three weeks (x2 azure one week, 1x crimson and amber the next week and the week after and then repeat the cycle) so it can take a while if you want five of a single shard type on a singular frame, less if you mix and match and even more if you're aiming for all tauforged shards. On the other end, the whole point of the shards is for people to gradually obtain them to power up their frames of choice instead of obtaining multiple shards per week to power up 3+ frames at a time. 

While i'm not against increasing the ways to obtain shards, we shouldn't be able to farm 6+ shards with ease in just a few days or a single week.

Instant gains and gratifications have never performed well in games. As soon as players get them, the thrills, the ups and the downs of anticipation and reward go away and, in their place, is the normalcy effect. It's as much of a self defeating method as it can get, especially for a company like DE. Some players will always refuse to accept that but, luckily, gaming companies already know the lessons of what happens.

[crimsonspartan1]

12 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Instant gains and gratifications have never performed well in games. As soon as players get them, the thrills, the ups and the downs of anticipation and reward go away and, in their place, is the normalcy effect. It's as much of a self defeating method as it can get, especially for a company like DE. Some players will always refuse to accept that but, luckily, gaming companies already know the lessons of what happens.

Pretty much.

As i said earlier, i feel like there isn't really a right way to do archon shards. Time-gating sucks but it's something game devs have to do to avoid everyone getting everything off the bat, and the inclusion of Necracells allows people to get 5 more shards every week but it's all down to luck so some people who get extremely lucky will get an edge over those who don't have as much luck, but at the same time the archon shards are a pretty powerful mechanic so being able to farm them like any other resource is also a bad idea. 

Shards are an interesting mechanic, but there isn't really a proper way to balance it out without either removing the time-gating but at the cost of weakening the shards or increasing the means of obtaining them but having them still be time-gated or locked behind certain things so people can't just do a couple missions and have enough for all of their frames. 

[megastorm]

Yea there is a good way, its just that society and coporate marketing got yall debating on how much a company is allowed to give you something in a game. These live service models should not blur the gap on games. DE certainly can give the people what they want and stop trying to regulate it. In all seriousness live service games, battle arenas, sports, fps, need to stop with the limiting stuff. 

 

And it got everyone trying to find some compromise for there time in a game meant for entertainment and enjoyment. These barriers is why people start moving away from it. But I digress. Let's figure a good way to divy out archon shards. Keep it the same DE. You will always have people on your side no matter what.

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I'm here because I made a relevant comment about how the entire discussion is about entitlement (the people that feel they have it versus the people that are telling them they shouldn't) instead of recognising that DE just wants to keep people coming back and is perfectly willing to push the limits of what people find fun.

And then so many people wanted to debate it by trying to make the point about things that don't actually hold any sway in the matter. Defending the point that the entitlement doesn't, and never will, matter in either direction, has been the main point.

This isn't me specifically arguing with anyone. Not really, although I don't mind the argument ^^

This is me pointing out the exact, known, documented, and self-admitted views of the developers on the topic.

People claiming that it's about fun, like @angel_bee or people that keep trying to find new ways to defend their greed, like @SneakyErvin are just... not getting the point.

Which most people would find frustrating. If anything, I enjoy playing the equivalent of Chicken on the topic where eventually one of us will give up, and it's only a matter of how long they're prepared to keep commenting back.

But the whole "keep people coming back" doesnt work, since the system doesnt end up doing that except as I said as a "look at us!" number on a paper, while the usage of the content is actually rather low over the same period of time. The content is so short per visit that any real number of activity besides X visits over Y years wont be visible. Which is likely what they aim for to show to people not fully in the "know". Which is why these gating methods are so popular in mobile games, which WF is about to become aswell. It is no wonder this type of gating and RNG ended up in the game at this point in time.

Plus it isnt greed, since clearly no one has any problem with investing the time. And no, waiting on a gate for a week is not investing time, it is waiting while doing anything else, including non-game related stuff. So you should probably look inward regarding who the person is that isnt getting the actual point of concerns here.

You can just see how little time we actually spend on Archon content. So far I've spent roughly the equal in time on the new update as 40+ weeks of Archon hunts would allow me. That looks like a horrible implementation of a gate if their idea behind it was for people to engage with the content they released. The infinite nature of shards along with a RNG based drop system would have led to far more longevity of the system and much higher usage.

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2023-12-16 at 4:17 PM, SneakyErvin said:

But the whole "keep people coming back" doesnt work

On a micro scale, no, because everyone that's not going to pay for a game won't pay no matter how long they play.

On a macro scale, once you get into the tens of thousands (like Warframe's concurrent player count), it does work. It's proven to work. DE have 10 years of it working.

If you're a player that will pay for Warframe, the more weeks you come back will directly influence how often you pay.