Missing counterplay from new enemy faction…?

[(NSW)Greybones]

Now admittedly I’ve only played the story and a couple of bounties and one of the things that reward Shards (which was your usual chaos of players soloing the thing, so not a lot could be gleaned from the fighting), but is it just me or does it feel like there’s an enemy type missing from the roster of new enemies or something?

Most of them seem melee-based, but without the hooks and auras and general counter tools of the Infested, and the tileset they’re in is so open that it’s pretty easy to keep distance unlike the cramped corridors that the Infested can excel in. I’ve not really felt threatened as I bounce around and just sort of plugged away at the bad guys, and it feels like there’s a distinct pressure-player-at-distance shaped hole in their roster; one of the round guys summoned a Necramech and that proved threatening, but surely those scenarios are few and far between enough that there’s space for something else

Am I missing something?

[(NSW)Greybones]

Alright, so after a bit of poking around in the Simulacrum, those sphere Necramechs do shoot. They’re just really short-ranged.

I’m… not sure what the design idea is. I’m usually far enough away they never shoot, or I’m in and away again before they get a chance to do some proper shooting when I’m actually close enough

[(PSN)robotwars7]

5 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Am I missing something?

yeah, try going melee only against the floating triangle bois with the 3 arms: not only are they near impossible to hit in melee, they apply overguard to other enemies. they also only take damage if you hit the arms, so individually they aren't too bad, but when a group is with them, or there's more than one, it can get problematic. of course, any ranged weapon helps, but when it's a netracell mission and there's several eximus versions of them, they can be a threat regardless of what guns you have on.

to be clear, I don't want them to be nerfed, not at all. I'm absolutely loving how insane the fighting is in Netracell missions. this level of missions is perfectly suited to those of us with the gear for it, and while it may still never be a "true endgame" mode, it's a fun time with good rewards, and that's all I ask for.

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

yeah, try going melee only against the floating triangle bois with the 3 arms: not only are they near impossible to hit in melee, they apply overguard to other enemies. they also only take damage if you hit the arms, so individually they aren't too bad, but when a group is with them, or there's more than one, it can get problematic. of course, any ranged weapon helps, but when it's a netracell mission and there's several eximus versions of them, they can be a threat regardless of what guns you have on.

to be clear, I don't want them to be nerfed, not at all. I'm absolutely loving how insane the fighting is in Netracell missions. this level of missions is perfectly suited to those of us with the gear for it, and while it may still never be a "true endgame" mode, it's a fun time with good rewards, and that's all I ask for.

 

That doesn’t sound like it’s the ranged pressure I’m looking for from the enemy. Even the Infested have some pretty gnarly ranged options in the Cambian Drift to help with such wide open spaces, but these new guys seem like they’re lacking such options. I’m wondering if the new enemies could get buffed with longer-ranged attacks or something, unless there’s a design philosophy I’m missing

[(PSN)robotwars7]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

hat doesn’t sound like it’s the ranged pressure I’m looking for from the enemy.

you sound like you want them to snipe you from a mile off? is that what you want? because that's how you get sniped from a mile off lol.

I think the Murmur are intended to be a faction that relies more on swarm tactics, rather than hanging back and using focused lasers. easier for DE to make them, and makes for more intense close combat, which is what this game is really about. there is one enemy that comes close-ish: the snake bois with the hands can fire off a big laser, but it takes time to charge up to that point and they are fixed in place, so you can stop them before they fire.

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

you sound like you want them to snipe you from a mile off? is that what you want? because that's how you get sniped from a mile off lol.

I think the Murmur are intended to be a faction that relies more on swarm tactics, rather than hanging back and using focused lasers. easier for DE to make them, and makes for more intense close combat. there is one enemy that comes close-ish: the snake bois with the hands can fire off a big laser, but it takes time to charge up to that point and they are fixed in place, so you can stop them before they fire.

If the faction is meant to be so melee-focused, some options to at least keep a distant player on their toes while they’re not engaging to the strength of the enemy would be appreciated. Obviously the melee-focused faction would be scariest at close range, but right now keeping distance feels a little too easy (unless there’s something I’m missing).

I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t object to the faction being frightening at close range and still-present-and-aggressive-though-not-as-scary at distance if you’re not asking them to be nerfed. If anything this’d be a buff to the faction if they are indeed missing something in their toolkit of ways to kill the player

edit: Took the liberty of modifying the quote

Edited December 14, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

14 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

If the faction is meant to be so melee-focused, some options to at least keep a distant player on their toes while they’re not engaging to the strength of the enemy would be appreciated. Obviously the melee-focused faction would be scariest at close range, but right now keeping distance feels a little too easy (unless there’s something I’m missing).

I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t object to the faction being frightening at close range and still-present-and-aggressive-though-not-as-scary at distance if you’re not asking them to be nerfed. If anything this’d be a buff to the faction if they are indeed missing something in their toolkit of ways to kill the player

edit: Took the liberty of modifying the quote

I don't think this is a case of anything "missing" so much as it is a difference between YOUR idea of what you want out of this faction, and DE's idea of what THEY wanted to design...

If they are made TOO lethal in melee range, ALL anyone is going to do is CC and hide from as high/far as position as they can whilst nuking/sniping them....  Not exactly engaging gameplay to keep coming back to.

If they're made too squishy, it incentivizes AFKing or leads to whining on forums/etc.

Right now, where they're at, it's a nice balance of "engaging" but also "not too much pressure".

After all, DE's goal isn't to "kill the player"... it's for the players to have FUN, to feel POWERFUL, to feel they've made PROGRESS, etc.

This mode, thus far, insofar as I can tell from my own experience, has done exactly that.

It's not some sweaty endgame activity necessarily, no...  and I'm sure the time'll come we get Steel Path versions, stronger bosses, etc....  but there's nothing "wrong" with it.  It's just meant to be something everyone, casual or otherwise, can deal with, enjoy, and have FUN with.

Fun is, of course, subjective, and it's IMPOSSIBLE to please everybody with everything, so... if it's not your cup of tea, that's okay, too ^_^  There's plenty other modes that offer more challenge...  *shrugs*

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

The counterplay is the weirdass hitboxes and the enemies crawling on the ground or flying, making aiming at them an inconvenience. It's easier for me to melee them

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

I don't think this is a case of anything "missing" so much as it is a difference between YOUR idea of what you want out of this faction, and DE's idea of what THEY wanted to design...

If they are made TOO lethal in melee range, ALL anyone is going to do is CC and hide from as high/far as position as they can whilst nuking/sniping them....  Not exactly engaging gameplay to keep coming back to.

If they're made too squishy, it incentivizes AFKing or leads to whining on forums/etc.

Right now, where they're at, it's a nice balance of "engaging" but also "not too much pressure".

After all, DE's goal isn't to "kill the player"... it's for the players to have FUN, to feel POWERFUL, to feel they've made PROGRESS, etc.

This mode, thus far, insofar as I can tell from my own experience, has done exactly that.

It's not some sweaty endgame activity necessarily, no...  and I'm sure the time'll come we get Steel Path versions, stronger bosses, etc....  but there's nothing "wrong" with it.  It's just meant to be something everyone, casual or otherwise, can deal with, enjoy, and have FUN with.

Fun is, of course, subjective, and it's IMPOSSIBLE to please everybody with everything, so... if it's not your cup of tea, that's okay, too ^_^  There's plenty other modes that offer more challenge...  *shrugs*

Easy there before you start freaking out about the idea of facing death in more ways than you currently are; since posting the original topic, I’ve done some other missions including Alchemy and Mirror Defense, and the new faction seemed to have a bit more bite to them in those missions, which I was wondering if maybe the mission type and how it plays to the design of the faction was something I was missing.

I trust DE for the most part, as they’ve done a pretty good job of keeping the fight going for the vast majority of builds we can make even if I have my passing concerns that they might be a little too close to community desires at times. Steel Path is the unimaginative player’s version of difficulty, but luckily there does seem to be some fight in the faction as it stands in the standard game, so even if DE don’t introduce more range pressure options, what we’ve got provides some engagement (though I’m not sure what you imagine additional enemy options would look like, and even if DE did introduce them I’m sure you’d be able to build the problem away as per usual)

edit: Wait, did you miss the point of the topic?

Edited December 15, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[D-Shear]

The new faction is definitely vastly undertuned in comparison to your uber fire rate corpus and energy leeching/toxin proccing infested. 

They are literally target dummies and the only enemy type, that does give you a bit of trouble in SP, are the rogue necramechs, because as of right now, they cannot be armorstripped, have a 4 status cap and can only be sufficiently damaged by weakpoint hits. But even then, they are kind of "harmless" with their weak AI, barely any fire rate and slow melee attacks and movement.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

I find the enemy variety great but they're usually not very challenging. Something between Infested and Grineer.

That said, when they swarm you in a Netracell fight, get the Overguard floating support and a Necramech pops out, it started to be pretty difficult and enjoyable. I'd say it's way better than Archon Hunts.

It is true they lack some sort of ranged threat. A sniper or something that keeps its distance and can really hurt you. Then again, things like that don't really fit the theme of Murmur.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

It is true they lack some sort of ranged threat. A sniper or something that keeps its distance and can really hurt you. Then again, things like that don't really fit the theme of Murmur.

Yeah…

The Murmur do have rock-throwing enemies, but during the quest at least I was standing around getting pelted to see how hard they hit and it wasn’t particularly threatening for a level 40-ish ranged attack of that slow-moving slow-firing nature. I do enjoy the Murmur boss fight, as it seems to have a few options

If the rock-throwing Murmurs aren’t made more frequent and a little more dangerous, I was thinking something as simple as more instances of shooting from the round Necramechs at longer distance might help; I’ve found them so inconsistent even when I’m within range that I thought they were bugged, but it seems like their projectiles travel fast enough that they could be sufficiently scary at range if someone’s not careful?

Ultimately it’d be on DE to make the adjustments if they decide they even need them, but it’s good to hear that it’s not just me who feels like there’s something potentially missing to round out the options

Edited December 15, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[(PSN)Sentiel]

9 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Yeah…

The Murmur do have rock-throwing enemies, but during the quest at least I was standing around getting pelted to see how hard they hit and it wasn’t particularly threatening for a level 40-ish ranged attack of that slow-moving slow-firing nature. I do enjoy the Murmur boss fight, as it seems to have a few options

If the rock-throwing Murmurs aren’t made more frequent and a little more dangerous, I was thinking something as simple as more instances of shooting from the round Necramechs at longer distance might help; I’ve found them so inconsistent even when I’m within range that I thought they were bugged, but it seems like their projectiles travel fast enough that they could be sufficiently scary at range if someone’s not careful?

Ultimately it’d be on DE to make the adjustments if they decide they even need them, but it’s good to hear that it’s not just me who feels like there’s something potentially missing to round out the options

The round Necramechs are too squishy. I don't even know what they do because they die too quickly. I assume they shoot something but even on lvl 300 it's so feeble or inaccurate I haven't actually registered them as a threat.

[TARINunit9]

My first thought is "the bosses"

The giant monster made of legs actually has plenty of ranged attacks. Shockwaves, laser turrets, cross-shaped eruptions of hands, I found very quickly I wasn't going to just circle-strafe this bad boy like Phorid (man, I miss when Phorid and Sergeant reworks were still on the table)

And don't forget the Wally battle where he just copies your Warframe and guns you down without mercy

But I get you, you are talking about normal enemy design. And to that I say: they seem to spam Eximus units more than other factions, and with the amount of Energy Leech bubbles coming my way I am very much glad I don't have to worry about snipers and hookshots

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

The round Necramechs are too squishy. I don't even know what they do because they die too quickly. I assume they shoot something but even on lvl 300 it's so feeble or inaccurate I haven't actually registered them as a threat.

I kind of feel the same. When hitting their core body they can take a few hits, but their arm weakpoints only take a shot or two and then they’re good as gone once both arms are gone.

I like the precision play of hitting those weakspots and it’s pretty satisfying, but I’ve wondered whether the hitboxes could be shrunk; harder to hit may make them last longer, which can have cascading effects for how much pressure they can apply and give them a chance to do something (plus I’ve accidentally smacked them several times with melee while just swinging wildly)

37 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

My first thought is "the bosses"

The giant monster made of legs actually has plenty of ranged attacks. Shockwaves, laser turrets, cross-shaped eruptions of hands, I found very quickly I wasn't going to just circle-strafe this bad boy like Phorid (man, I miss when Phorid and Sergeant reworks were still on the table)

And don't forget the Wally battle where he just copies your Warframe and guns you down without mercy

I reckon the Murmur boss is quite good, probably one of my favourites. It seems like it’s got options and I’ve been downed once or twice.

I’ve only fought Wally once or twice, the second time with my Necramech (which was a fun discovery), and can’t really say I’ve got a feel for what he does

42 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

But I get you, you are talking about normal enemy design. And to that I say: they seem to spam Eximus units more than other factions, and with the amount of Energy Leech bubbles coming my way I am very much glad I don't have to worry about snipers and hookshots

Hm. I guess Eximus could be a way to flesh out the roster, but I do feel like the faction could be more well-rounded and then the Eximus occur on top of it. Will need to play around while paying attention to what the Eximus bring to the table alongside everything else

[Elenortirie]

51 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

(man, I miss when Phorid and Sergeant reworks were still on the table)

Sergeant rework becoming it's own separate character and living their own life xD

(For those unaware, "the sergeant" boss, was originally known as sergeant Nef Anyo, whom was a corpus sergeant whom was known for dealing in cryopodded warframes, which tenno would prefer him not to, hence the assassination mission, but as "Nef Anyo rework" went, they decoupled him from "the sergeant", left the assassination mission basically unchanged, and made alot things with new Nef Anyo instead. Which gets even more hilarious when you realize that sortie targeted against sergeant, still refers to him as Nef Anyo)