Now that melee is worth using again, DE needs to *urgently* fix stances/animations.

[Hayrack]

57 minutes ago, (XBOX)Player244024418 said:

It's funny they are called stances when you rarely hold a stance. Power comes from the ground. Unless your feet are firmly planted you will have significantly less power. WF stances completely ignore rule #1. 

I like polearms and Swirling Tiger precisely because they are "loosely attached" to the ground 😁.

On the other hand, yes, I find Sovereign Outcast OK to use, because it is more grounded, but still fast and precise for my liking.

Gunblades tend to shoot and miss close targets, instead of striking, and strike at the enemy meters away, instead if shooting. Heavy attack lock is just so awful, like, pick it up with both hands and shoot while running, dammit, it uses the same bullets you use while shooting and dancing during other combos...

Edited December 25, 2023 by Hayrack

[Berzerkules]

22 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

What a clown.

Here's a 1.4m bleed proc by the way, no arcanes (neither on the weapon, nor on the frame), no abilities, no priming, no riven:

And here's the Lex Prime, also no riven:In case you don't know, those have around 3m HP at level cap (Steel Path, obviously).

Huge difference between lvl <200 in the sim and lvl cap. That's like a 3M+ EHP vs. 3B+ EHP. Those screenshots are irrelevant.

Anyways, more on point to topic. I'm not really in favor of reworking all stances because I happen to like a few. 

Swirling Tiger and Sovereign Outcast are two of my favorites, while every single polearm stance is complete garbage IMO. If polearm stances were reworked It might benefit me, but I realize some people enjoy those stances and that's why they use those weapons. I feel that I have enough available choices of melee weapons with stances that I do enjoy that having others that I don't like is an acceptable compromise. I don't want stances that I've enjoyed for 4+ years to suddenly change, just like I don't want to change other stances I dislike because it will most likely ruin someone else good time. I also have a significant plat investment into very specific melee rivens for melee weapons because the stances are enjoyable to play. 

I'd rather have more stance options across the board so that there is a greater possibility more people could find stances they like for each weapon class. Especially for weapons like rapiers, Bade whips and 2h nikana that only have a single stance.  

What really irked me was the thread title "now that melee is worth using again" asking for reworked stances because melee has been in a very good place for years even after the nerfs. Anyone that knew how to mod melee weapons and min/max a loadout around melee knew that the nerfs were irrelevant. The recent additions of tenno kai and melee arcanes are unnecessary and classic DE OP overkill powercreep. 

[(XBOX)Player244024418]

39 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

'd rather have more stance options across the board so that there is a greater possibility more people could find stances they like for each weapon class

This would be fine 

[Traumtulpe]

4 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

Huge difference between lvl <200 in the sim and lvl cap. That's like a 3M+ EHP vs. 3B+ EHP. Those screenshots are irrelevant.

[...] Anyone that knew how to mod melee weapons and min/max a loadout around melee knew that the nerfs were irrelevant.

Dude... why are you talking about EHP when I showed you a 1.4m bleed proc? Do you not understand how *anything* works in this game, and just throw around big words that you do not know the meaning of to seem smart? Here, I'll spell it out for you:

EHP is 100% irrelevant for bleed procs. It matters not. At all. That gun kills level cap enemies in one shot, as is.

And nobody was using melee. It was the absolute uncontested AoE meta after the melee nerfs. Literally *nobody* used Tenet or Kuva melees, and even the Incarnon melees were *very* unpopular.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[ECCHOSIERRA]

On 2023-12-24 at 9:59 AM, Traumtulpe said:

I like how you're unironically using armor strip, and priming, and Sonar spam (and I'm sure you have a Riven on those Ether Daggers), and you're standing here on your soap box tellimg me "melee was totally fine". You could *literally* do level cap with a Stug and your setup. You could do level cap with a goddamn mining tool and that setup. You could kill enemies with bullet jump and that setup (though there's no rivens for your feet, unfortunately!).

Ridiculous.

You *do* know that a gun can kill those enemies with a single shot, no priming, no abilities, right?

I agree with your assessment that the video he showed amounts to cherry picking.

On 2023-12-24 at 5:13 PM, Berzerkules said:

Oh no, I'm using a min/max loadout to complement my melee weapon. What am I supposed to do, go into a mission with unmodded frame and just a melee?

If you can show me a video of you one shotting enemies of that lvl with a single shot no abilities no priming I'd love to see it. Extra bonus points if you do it without arcanes and galvanized mods since we are setting arbitrary restrictions on what makes weapons viable.

Kinda set yourself up on this one. 

5 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

Huge difference between lvl <200 in the sim and lvl cap. That's like a 3M+ EHP vs. 3B+ EHP. Those screenshots are irrelevant.

Anyways, more on point to topic. I'm not really in favor of reworking all stances because I happen to like a few. 

Swirling Tiger and Sovereign Outcast are two of my favorites, while every single polearm stance is complete garbage IMO. If polearm stances were reworked It might benefit me, but I realize some people enjoy those stances and that's why they use those weapons. I feel that I have enough available choices of melee weapons with stances that I do enjoy that having others that I don't like is an acceptable compromise. I don't want stances that I've enjoyed for 4+ years to suddenly change, just like I don't want to change other stances I dislike because it will most likely ruin someone else good time. I also have a significant plat investment into very specific melee rivens for melee weapons because the stances are enjoyable to play. 

I'd rather have more stance options across the board so that there is a greater possibility more people could find stances they like for each weapon class. Especially for weapons like rapiers, Bade whips and 2h nikana that only have a single stance.  

What really irked me was the thread title "now that melee is worth using again" asking for reworked stances because melee has been in a very good place for years even after the nerfs. Anyone that knew how to mod melee weapons and min/max a loadout around melee knew that the nerfs were irrelevant. The recent additions of tenno kai and melee arcanes are unnecessary and classic DE OP overkill powercreep. 

Let's start with the fact that level cap content is irrelevant to the vast majority of players. You know dang well you gotta be in a mission for quite awhile just to even get those enemies to spawn, and you also know there's no real compelling reason to bother with that. So most people dont.

Level 100-200 steel path enemies are a much more relevant metric to more people because thats something that players are far more likely to realistically encounter. 

Yes, min maxed melee builds could absolutely get somebody across the finish line. But especially during the AOE meta so could other things for alot less effort. "Effort" both in terms of "skill" and gear check.

I really dont think you can objectively say the nerfs to melee were "irrelevant" when the overal differences in DPS were/are significant. 

36 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Dude... why are you talking about EHP when I showed you a 1.4m bleed proc? Do you not understand how *anything* works in this game, and just throw around big words that you do not know the meaning of to seem smart? Here, I'll spell it out for you:

EHP is 100% irrelevant for bleed procs. It matters not. At all. That gun kills level cap enemies in one shot, as is.

And nobody was using melee. It was the absolute uncontested AoE meta after the melee nerfs. Literally *nobody* used Tenet or Kuva melees, and even the Incarnon melees were *very* unpopular.

I remember this well. Literally why bother shooting enemies with a primer and then meleeing them when you could just spam kuva bramma or something and just blow everything up at once.

*could you*? Sure! But there wasnt really a point. 

Just like it was why bother using single target weapons like tiberon prime.

Because even if tiberon prime could be a 1 shot instant kill you're still shooting enemies 1 at a time instead of clearing a whole group at once.

[(XBOX)K1jker]

I just want a new and fluid stance for two handed nikanas.. wise razor sucks

[Berzerkules]

19 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

Let's start with the fact that level cap content is irrelevant to the vast majority of players. You know dang well you gotta be in a mission for quite awhile just to even get those enemies to spawn, and you also know there's no real compelling reason to bother with that. So most people dont.

Level 100-200 steel path enemies are a much more relevant metric to more people because thats something that players are far more likely to realistically encounter. 

Yes, min maxed melee builds could absolutely get somebody across the finish line. But especially during the AOE meta so could other things for alot less effort. "Effort" both in terms of "skill" and gear check.

I really dont think you can objectively say the nerfs to melee were "irrelevant" when the overal differences in DPS were/are significant. 

I remember this well. Literally why bother shooting enemies with a primer and then meleeing them when you could just spam kuva bramma or something and just blow everything up at once.

Once we got galvanized mods and primary/secondary arcanes it was like why bother with a bramma when my utility primer is killing enemies in basic SP mission. Might as well  run the same melee/cc focused loadouts I have always ran and see how far I can go. Since I mainly play solo I didn't really have to deal with the Wu AoE meta, I just played by myself keeping up what I had always been doing. I don't remember a time when I struggled with melee and it was never obsolete as OP implied.

Since you've always had a Mesa glyph here's  Meme Melee Mesa clip for you. Figured I'd leave my guns at home and use a lasso(ensnare) instead. I am a cowgirl after all and not just a couple of guns.

No damage buffs, no armor strip and no peace makers.

Spoiler

Uploaded Feb 8 2022 right in the middle of Wukong bramma/zarr meta.

Enemies only 3-4k here but Meme Melee Mesa still slayin it well past the point that bramma spam could maintain. Melee nerfs didn't really slow me down, almost not even noticeable.

Swirling Tiger is a good stance. I don't want DE reworking the good stuff.

 

[ECCHOSIERRA]

On 2023-12-26 at 10:28 PM, Berzerkules said:

Once we got galvanized mods and primary/secondary arcanes it was like why bother with a bramma when my utility primer is killing enemies in basic SP mission. Might as well  run the same melee/cc focused loadouts I have always ran and see how far I can go. Since I mainly play solo I didn't really have to deal with the Wu AoE meta, I just played by myself keeping up what I had always been doing. I don't remember a time when I struggled with melee and it was never obsolete as OP implied.

Since you've always had a Mesa glyph here's  Meme Melee Mesa clip for you. Figured I'd leave my guns at home and use a lasso(ensnare) instead. I am a cowgirl after all and not just a couple of guns.

No damage buffs, no armor strip and no peace makers.

  Hide contents

Uploaded Feb 8 2022 right in the middle of Wukong bramma/zarr meta.

Enemies only 3-4k here but Meme Melee Mesa still slayin it well past the point that bramma spam could maintain. Melee nerfs didn't really slow me down, almost not even noticeable.

Swirling Tiger is a good stance. I don't want DE reworking the good stuff.

 

What is that mesa clip trying to prove?

Like what does my glyph have to do with this? 

Look man im not trying to attack you here, but i really dont see what that has to do with anything.

You know what this conversation reminds me of? When a car guy says something like, "Honda civics are slow". But somebody somewhere took a honda civic and they replaced the whole engine, and then they added a twin turbo system, and then they added nos, and then they did a weight reduction, and then they took the entire engine down to practically its natural elements and re built it using different internals and components so it can run like 80psi of boost at 20,000 RPM. So somebody gets offended by the statement "honda civics are slow" and and shoves this example in everyones face like "aha! Well heres a honda civic and it isnt slow! So youre wrong!". 

 

Like bruh. So you group a bunch of enemies together with ensnare which effectively turns the ai completely off and gives you a stealth damage bonus and you prime everything with whatever secondary built for priming everything. 

Its like you think nobody else knows what priming is or stealth damage is or has any understanding of how melee damage calculation works.

 

If your point is "melee is still good post nerfs" i can easily point out as good as that is, *its still nerfed*.

 

And then we can have the obvious conversation about what damage output and game balance should or shouldnt be and whether or not it was really in the best interest of the game for condition overload to scale multiplicatively off of itself and for blood rush to scale multiplicatively off of other crit chance mods,

But the key point in this thread that i agree with more than anything is that alot of stances feel wonky. 

Specifically because alot of melee stances have involuntary forced movement built into them that will make you feel like youre "randomly" (i know its not random) leap past your target and then have to potentially turn around just to attack them again, 

 

But at the same time you have stances like blind justice that will happily let you stand in one spot and keep hitting the same enemy as many times as you need to without that problem.

 

Hell i still feel like its silly that there are certain weapons with certain stances that can be swung around freely in a full sprint without affecting movement at all, you just keep swinging, but others cant. 

There are *alot* of melee weapons that i dont like using not just because the stats are bad (they arent), or the weapon isnt "cool", but just because the stances feel wonky.

Looking at you rapiers. Looking at you reaper prime.

 

Truthfully, i actually think warframe is generally in a better place now. Im glad that it feels like so many options are viable now, vs feeling like you *have to* do things a certain way or youre just doing it wrong. I just think animations could use some tweaks related to movement.

[Traumtulpe]

On 2023-12-27 at 5:28 AM, Berzerkules said:

Enemies only 3-4k here but Meme Melee Mesa still slayin it well past the point that bramma spam could maintain.

This is completely false, if you went through the same procedure (grouping with Ensnare, damage buffing with Roar instead of Shooting Gallery's stealth multiplier, proccing the enemy up with a secondary) a Bramma would deal several times more damage despite not having access to Condition Overload.

Regardless, the thread title is "Now that melee is worth using again..." - that should be enough clue to how absurdly irrelevant old videos about someone tryharding with their favourite Riven is. Stances are complete crap and need urgent reworking, at the very least the "forward combo" needs to also be usable with the "sideways" input. It's ridiculous that you can hold sideways while attacking and get the neutral combo (which likely catapults you forward while completely preventing sideways movement).

[Berzerkules]

8 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

This is completely false, if you went through the same procedure (grouping with Ensnare, damage buffing with Roar instead of Shooting Gallery's stealth multiplier, proccing the enemy up with a secondary) a Bramma would deal several times more damage despite not having access to Condition Overload.

Regardless, the thread title is "Now that melee is worth using again..." - that should be enough clue to how absurdly irrelevant old videos about someone tryharding with their favourite Riven is. Stances are complete crap and need urgent reworking, at the very least the "forward combo" needs to also be usable with the "sideways" input. It's ridiculous that you can hold sideways while attacking and get the neutral combo (which likely catapults you forward while completely preventing sideways movement).

The title is the only reason I commented on this thread and my point remains that melee was always worth using. It's not all of a sudden relevant again. I've been lvl capping with melee for the last 5 years.

I like melee, I don't trust DE to "fix" every stance. I'll gladly take more new stances.

[CalvinaPrime]

In regards to stances, I guess what I miss is how in the old way, moves and combos chained together more naturally. Nowadays holding melee repeats short moves in order, requiring button combos in order to achieve something akin to older stances.

 

Tfw I somehow had ancient footage laying around. (Old clip muted because desynced audio)

 

TLDR or something

old melee was generally more mobile, with button mashing combos being simple slashes, new melee has lots of stances that can limit your mobility with good combos requiring you to stand still.

Get rid of stationary melee combo, bring back button combinations combining standard melee, melee + block, and melee + pauses

Edited January 16 by CalvinaPrime

[MirageKnight]

Aside from some stances needing more polish, my problems with melee are twofold.

One, tennokai is something that, arguably, should have been baked into dedicated melee combat instead of having to rely on external mods and more forma to work.

Two, most basic combos have forward movement baked in / forced on the player. It’s rare but there are instances where I want or need to stay in one spot and hack away - and NOT move forward. If I want to move while engaged in melee, that should be left up to me and my movement keys - not melee attack. It’s not a game breaking issue for me, but it’s really annoying at times.

That said, I know of a number of older players that outright quit playing shortly after the last major melee rework went live and continue to refuse to touch warframe ever again unless forced movement in melee is removed. A bit drastic a reaction on their part perhaps, but I can understand why.

[Hexerin]

Hysteria's melee stance needs to have the damage multipliers of its standing, blocking, forward, and forward block combos buffed to modern standards. Heavy and slide combos are fine. I don't use the niche combos (aerial and wall), so no comment on those.

[quxier]

On 2023-12-21 at 11:44 AM, Traumtulpe said:

The player was also able to not move at all, not even a tiny little bit, by crouching during the combo. Now combos will catapult you forwards against your will and past your target, unless you have melee lock on activated (which is also complete garbage and feels horrible to play with).

So... now you can move with Crouch and it's bad. However before having to press Crouch to not move at all (via your words) were better? Isn't it double standards? Huh?

Let's be precise here. I don't remember pre melee 2.(9) but nowadays not all stances are bad as for movement (they stay when you don't press arrow keys, moves when you do). Some have that weird movements, sure. For example Gunblades forward combo stops you (2nd attack moves around you...). Standing combo is not very good but it doesn't catapult you. One combos that can catapult you are block+forward combos. Those are designed for that in some cases. After all they are called "gap closers".

 

So what can be changed?

1) Make Standing & Moving combos what they say (Standing combo don't move you AND Moving combo moves you). No bad animation in the middle (e.g. Bullet dance moving combo stops you - that doesn't fit "moving combo" - it should move it all the time). At most make "different" attack as last attack so it can be avoided (e.g. like some blade spinning attack that makes you tired at the end).

2) Add backward combo (just reverse forward combo). At least don't make backward combo moves forward.

3) Frame should move with same speed as they are moving without attacking. Attack speed should be decoupled from attack speed. Imagine riding Ghoulsaw with Volt's speed but attack still takes N seconds.

4) Apply force. When Frame e.g. jump at enemy, then enemy should be affected. Enemy falling down and you standing could be good. However just frame stopping at enemy & enemy getting some damage/status would be enough. Look at Ghoulsaw riding. They don't make enemies fall to the ground but they at least affect enemies.

Some of those can be done with DIY stances:

That's just to make melee not broken.

 

It's just the beginning.

There have to be more work to make types & stance different (Heavy scythe & 2x Nikana look only great but they are same weapons).

Remove Tennokai. Make us play game not some arbitrary "hey, press key now" timer game. We had that before in melee <2.(9) and it wasn't good.

Make wall attack faster, have some recovery and big area of attack. Or some other way to make it "usable" - at least not detrimental.

Ban normal slams using aimglide. Now you have to press down button to keep aerial attacks.

And probably some more...

[Horosha]

I agree, Tennokai is something that should've been baked into the melee system long ago without needing an exilus slot and mod. Additionally, I'll never NOT recommend melee animations from the likes of Dragon's Dogma, Devil May Cry, Bayonetta or ESPECIALLY Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance. The latter had it right with the quick left and right slashes when moving and using melee. Save the more over-the-top stuff for standing combos and only place forward movement into them as a gap closer. Some are just outright terrible, like the scythe and gunblade animations.