Change Gauss' subsumed ability to his 2

[Hyohakusha]

That's it. That's the easiest way. No more Wukong's and Titania's breaking the waypoint tracker, breaking the void rift transformation triggers, setting off "change of plans", blinding everyone and making missions take twice as long as they should while thinking they're being "efficient". No need to nerf any frames, no need to nerf the ability (again) right before Gauss Prime comes out.

The arguments in favor of Thermal Sunder are nothing but what-aboutisms, fallacies and false equivalents that all turn into arguments, which is all the more reason to do something about it.

"Oh, but you can leave.". Yeah, I do, that's why I'm making the post. I'm not spending five+ minutes chasing a broken waypoint on a mission that should be over in two.

"Oh, learn how to parkour." say the people who put it on frames that do not engage with the parkour system.

"Oh, but what about xyz frame." We're not talking about xyz frame. The fact that Gauss has the best version of the ability but is never the frame you see doing it is telling as is. The fact that it's used on low level content is even worse, not an excuse. Especially when it's Earth or Mars, and an MR20 is using it in a room with MR2's.

"Oh, but I just want to do the mission quickly." and if you had any idea what you were doing, you would bring Wisp or Volt to keep the squad together so the reactant spawns are consistent, instead of breaking them to the point where they're so spread out they don't even get marked on the map.

[Pakaku]

Definitely, it was always pretty ridiculous that they thought giving everyone a free brainless AoE was a good idea

[chaotea]

Gotta say, ive used a solo wukong to run most of my steel path captures or regular captures when doing NW challenges. Never had it trigger "Bonus Exterminate" for doing a mission too quickly. Even when doing the 'complete a mission in under a min' NW. I think its just random.

Still, regardless i've not experienced players using this tactic enough to warrant any actual code changes.

As for:

2 hours ago, Hyohakusha said:

"Oh, but I just want to do the mission quickly." .....

I mean if people want to do missions quickly they should solo. Had a guy the other day complain while waiting at the finish that we were taking too long looking for Voca after the objective and if we wanted to do that we should 'run solo'. People have no idea.

[SDGDen]

honestly, yeah. idk how good of an idea giving an extra DR ability is, but without the meter it shouldn't be *that* strong that it becomes OP.

in fact, im gonna go through the entire list of subsumes and see which ones should be changed out, im sure thermal sunder isnt the only one.

 

limbo: banish is.... not very useful, but i dont think he has any other abilities that could fit here. 

protea: i'd swap dispensary out for blaze artillery to prevent dispensary from being an easy "infinite ammo and energy" subsume.

frost: honestly more of a "this power needs a buff", since frost's 4 cant be a subsume and neither can his 3 without taking away much of his identity. 

grendel: nourish is too strong in the energy regain front, but none of grendel's other abilities would work here due to animation limitations (although pulverize would be a funny subsume to have)

ivara: either change out her quiver for the projectile control ability, or change which arrows quiver has to cloak and sleep instead of cloak and noise.

qorvex: honestly his 1 is VERY weak without access to his 4, i think having his 3 as a subsume would be a lot more useful.

 

some are still a bit under (shuriken, shock and smite) but overall most subsumes are pretty well-balanced picks. 

 

[Raarsi]

8 hours ago, Pakaku said:

Definitely, it was always pretty ridiculous that they thought giving everyone a free brainless AoE was a good idea

-Laughs in Breach Surge and Null Star-

10 hours ago, Hyohakusha said:

No more Wukong's and Titania's breaking the waypoint tracker

I've never seen a Wukong with it before, only ever Titania.  I might have to try that though, thanks for the tip!

Kinetic Plating seems nearly as powerful as Thermal Sunder though since it offers a defensive buff and bonus energy all with a lower energy drain than Thermal Sunder.  I could definitely see this being used in tandem with the other strong AoE options from the helminth, so I guess the drawback would be having to use an additional ability slot.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Funny how the helminth system was intended for anything MR15+, but was made into some baby mastery thing because boo hoo it's too hard to level some 100/500+ weapons and like 15/96 frames.

As much as I despise the over usage of any given ability, I gotta say Thermal Sunder doesn't bother me as much as Mesmer Skin does, and it's not even a subsume.

The moment you get out of normal star chart fissures, you pretty much never see anyone play with TS spam. Doesn't really exist (it does, but it's that much less common) in steel path outside of more legitimate and specific frames (like Blind Rage Harrow) rather than being on speedy high efficiency frames (like Titania or Volt).

If you do any Railjack voidstorms, you're not seeing thermal sunder anywhere, under any circumstances. Unless it's a Gauss without any helminth, which is viable, just like anything else in RJ.

 

However, as long as Rev prime is not vaulted, I can guarantee you that you're seeing some Rev user wherever you go, just living their life, taking 0% damage throughout the mission.

 

Warframe has it flaws, but it really shows when ease of use rhymes with dumbing down the game with a single button. This state was previously a very common occurence when Inaros Prime had released, you'd have just randos doing pretty much nothing in your squad because their frame just doesn't do anything but it's safe to wear because of the eHP, in Rev's case, that eHP is infinite, as energy is bottomless and replenishable with ease thanks to the single most played focus school, zenurik.

Yet no one gives half a crap about this because "hu hu rev is good frem me lik becoz mi no ded".

 

TL;DR, my point is that Thermal Sunder is problematic, but only in a fraction of the game. Some interactions in the game are far more of an issue, on just about anywhere else, but no one seems to care.

[Redphienix]

On 2024-01-10 at 3:30 PM, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

TL;DR, my point is that Thermal Sunder is problematic, but only in a fraction of the game. Some interactions in the game are far more of an issue, on just about anywhere else, but no one seems to care.

I dislike rev and want mesmer nerfed as much as the next guy but I feel you're missing the point despite coming close.

The reason people are asking for TS to be ~nerfed~(removed from helminth) here is because it's actively detrimental to other people's gameplay in a very popular game mode that makes up a sizable portion of gameplay (base chart fissures due to speed).

The reason you and I dislike mesmer is because it's too braindead. Because it causes the user to interact with the game less than someone without mesmer. This is a different and lesser issue.

Mesmer doesn't negatively impact other's gameplay 99 out of 100 times as the only players actively hurt by some rev having mesmer are hunter adrenaline builds in a mesmer shield lobby, which is notable, but isn't a large portion of the game experience.

 

So yes, both are worth pointing at, but the topic is on an ability that is detrimental to other's play and antithetical to the coop fun in the coop game, and one is an overtuned defensive ability that allows the user to not die.

I can't argue these are remotely close to equivalent. One is far more impactful and far more damaging to the overall health of the community, no matter how many "Rev is stupid" memes we make.

[sunderthefirmament]

On 2024-01-10 at 3:50 AM, SDGDen said:

protea: i'd swap dispensary out for blaze artillery to prevent dispensary from being an easy "infinite ammo and energy" subsume.

You can't be serious.  Blaze Artillery is incredibly powerful.  If DE were to replace Dispensary with a different Protea power for her subsume, it would much more likely be the Grenade Fan, only with the shield option removed.

 

That said, I don't see them making any changes to Dispensary.  It's not easily abused, as it is:

• already nerfed through Helminth
• requires significant strength investment (often at odds with duration)
• requires significant duration investment (often at odds with strength)
• requires remaining in one area for maximum effect

 

To get back on topic, sure.  Get rid of Helminth TS, if for no other reason than to limit my exposure to the worst sound effect in the game.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 12 heures, Redphienix a dit :

Mesmer doesn't negatively impact other's gameplay 99 out of 100 times as the only players actively hurt by some rev having mesmer are hunter adrenaline builds in a mesmer shield lobby, which is notable, but isn't a large portion of the game experience.

Vex armor. Enough said.

[Redphienix]

6 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Vex armor. Enough said.

Not much of a point in favor of mesmer being more disruptive, but yes that's the other case I forgot, the frame that was once top dog and became mid tier when self damage was removed also gets annoyed with mesmer shield. I concede that that brings the tally up to "One mod used by a good amount of the player base, and Chroma, are annoyed by mesmer shield".

I still don't think it remotely compares but perhaps that my experience vs yours, as I prefer doing non-SP relics for speed more often than I think to do SP variants (really just use SP to crack Lith/meso when lith/meso are like survival since non-SP reactant hunting sucks in those). And in those environments you see a lot more annoyance from TS spam than I've ever had a HA build or Chroma build nerfed by a Rev. Rev's kinda just doing his own thing most of the time.

Regardless, the thread is on TS as a helminth and I agree with the consensus that TS as a helminth is a problem that is detrimental to the community experience.

 

Anyways on the topic instead of this tangent, a capped version of his 2 was recommended and I could see that 'working' but honestly? Just toss his 1 in there.

His kit isn't particularly helminth friendly (in terms of donating) anyway, but a 50 or 75% DR (since no battery etc) against 'most' damage is fine but I figure there's probably a reason DE avoids giving defense oriented helminth abilities.

His 1 without redline or kinetic plating is basically just a traversal move with 'some' damage attached.

And you may raise an eyebrow and go "But we're trying to AVOID people rushing 900m ahead" but I mean

Infested Mobility.

 

We ALREADY have a helminth that grants any frame in the game mega insane speed, and it hasn't changed the meta to every frame being a pain to play with. Mach would be a more difficult to control version of infested mobility (due to holding it for such an effect) with some damage attached. That genuinely seems like a 'fair' helminth.

Edited January 13 by Redphienix
Needlessly grumpy in the morning- I wasn't particularly rude but I apologize regardless for the irritable side

[sunderthefirmament]

1 hour ago, Redphienix said:

Anyways on the topic instead of this tangent, a capped version of his 2 was recommended and I could see that 'working' but honestly? Just toss his 1 in there.

His kit isn't particularly helminth friendly (in terms of donating) anyway, but a 50 or 75% DR (since no battery etc) against 'most' damage is fine but I figure there's probably a reason DE avoids giving defense oriented helminth abilities.

His 1 without redline or kinetic plating is basically just a traversal move with 'some' damage attached.

And you may raise an eyebrow and go "But we're trying to AVOID people rushing 900m ahead" but I mean

Infested Mobility.

 

We ALREADY have a helminth that grants any frame in the game mega insane speed, and it hasn't changed the meta to every frame being a pain to play with. Mach would be a more difficult to control version of infested mobility (due to holding it for such an effect) with some damage attached. That genuinely seems like a 'fair' helminth.

DE doesn't want frames to give up abilities that are largely considered their signature abilities, like Rhino's Ironskin or Frost's Globe.  While what a frame's "signature ability" might be is always going to be at least partially subjective, I think with Gauss it's pretty clearly his 1.

[Redphienix]

8 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

DE doesn't want frames to give up abilities that are largely considered their signature abilities, like Rhino's Ironskin or Frost's Globe.  While what a frame's "signature ability" might be is always going to be at least partially subjective, I think with Gauss it's pretty clearly his 1.

I agree on that deduction, but I do still believe it'd be the better match due to already having infested mobility.

So purely on a gameplay standpoint I should say. But I have to agree sadly. The most I could ever argue to DE on that is "Skin and Globe are the core of those kits, REDLINE is the core of Gauss- mach is just iconic" but both the hypothetical dev and myself would be thinking "semantics, it's his identity tool" and I'd lose out lmao

[shockwave311]

On 2024-01-13 at 8:47 AM, Redphienix said:

The reason you and I dislike mesmer is because it's too braindead. Because it causes the user to interact with the game less than someone without mesmer. This is a different and lesser issue.

Ah yes, the frame that doesnt do anything if you dont play the game is somehow braindead and uninteractive? Revenant encourages people to actually play by moving around and use their weapons for once.

Revenant was implemented before Steel Path was a thing, and during the era where LITERALLY EVERYONE used Saryn, Volt, Mirage...etc. And if bored, play something like max range Frost, Ember..etc.

 

You dont hate Revenant because he is braindead, but rather you hate him because he doesnt help you like Wisp does. And not every frame has to be like Wisp. If they are playing the game (unlike AFK Wukong clone playstyle before nerf), that is ENOUGH in my books. Period.

 

Edited January 14 by shockwave311

[-BellaMuerte-]

I tried TS on Garuda and Titania solo of course and quickly removed it mostly because I dont like the sound... I find other helminth abilities to be more enjoyable and have better benifits but I understand get the mission done as fast as u can but I'm not much of a speedrunner.

[Traumtulpe]

I don't think nerfing TS (more) is going to have any effect at all. So that Titania is now spamming Null Star, how does that improve anything? And if you nerf Null Star next you'll have a Mirage with +100% parcour speed and her disco ball killing everything. Or a Saryn with Miasma. Or anyone at all with an explosive weapon, or Melee Influence.

Killing weak enemies is the entire point of AoE abilities, if you don't want people killing your weak enemies, play solo or do Fissures on the Steel Path. The problem was never TS, the problem was you.

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 51 minutos, Traumtulpe dijo:

I don't think nerfing TS (more) is going to have any effect at all. So that Titania is now spamming Null Star, how does that improve anything? And if you nerf Null Star next you'll have a Mirage with +100% parcour speed and her disco ball killing everything. Or a Saryn with Miasma. Or anyone at all with an explosive weapon, or Melee Influence.

Killing weak enemies is the entire point of AoE abilities, if you don't want people killing your weak enemies, play solo or do Fissures on the Steel Path. The problem was never TS, the problem was you.

What are you talking about?? OP talks about swapping Gauss's helminth ability for his 2, that doesn't weaken thermal sunder

[Redphienix]

7 minutes ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

What are you talking about?? OP talks about swapping Gauss's helminth ability for his 2, that doesn't weaken thermal sunder

No real reason to question em, their post makes it very clear that they aren't interested in actually confronting the discussed problem as they believe it's doomed no matter what and it's a "you" problem that you're annoyed by... something that's.... annoying lmao

Basically just yelled "Skill issue" into the lobby and rage quit without contributing.

 

To vaguely confront the what-about-ism for the sake of this thread's topic: Yes, if TS was removed from helminth then the players who currently use titania/wukong TS will find something else to come close to the same effect.

Of course they will. And that's fine- heck I'm not mad at the players currently using it because I 'get' it, I just think it's antithetical to the coop fun of this game and should be addressed for that reason.

But some won't find replacements, and the current problem will be fixed.

Most of the proposed alternatives in the aboves post are literally things most of us would prefer, as the "problem" with TS titania is that this is a frame(s) that can circumvent the parkour system in order to go much faster than roughly 50 of the 55 frames and with this ability they can bathe the map in technicolor energy spam and dead bodies while everyone else plays walking simulator- and all the "reactant at spawn, go backwards" issues that exasperates.

 

The alternatives almost exclusively remove the "top 3 speed frame in the game can map wipe and make you walk" problem which is funny to see listed as a reason why it's doomed.

Titania with Null Star by default has a lower ceiling, that's a LOT of lost damage compared to spamming TS AND it has LOS to actually care about (vaguely) but of course that doesn't mean it won't still torment Liths, but honestly I could see it falling off and causing Titania to linger in tiles to spam fast enough to kill even on Mesos so like.... problem vastly mitigated right there lol I genuinely don't see that becoming the next popular speed tech when other non-LOS nukes exist.

Mirage still parkours, less of a walking sim because every normal player can keep up and even overtake them reasonably through better parkour.

Saryn (or any non LOS nuke like Oberon HR) are arguably the next "problem" and they are the one I can't offer a reasonable solution to- buuut- yet again- they interact with the parkour system and you're highly likely to keep up with them the entire mission, occasionally overcoming them as their nukes mildly interfere with their mobility (unlike TS). Just being near them alleviates a ton of the annoyance with reactant and makes the process of engaging with a walking sim less boring tbh.

And I think it's amusing that AOE weapons come up when like, yeah, almost everyone is using AOE weapons- this thread might as well be titled "I want to shoot my gun for once" so like, yeah, we want to use our guns that's not a problem.

And melee influence is a hilarious thing to bring up when that's MELEE. Going from titania holding W and mashing TS to like, Volt running fast and meleeing to nuke 20m ahead is night and day since titania is legitimately faster and Volt needs to land a melee (meaning he's consistently having to make contact with new enemy spawn groups) which slows him down IMMENSELY compared to what TS titania is up to. Like that's WAY more preferable compared to the current walk sim.

 

But yeah, also important to note that removing TS from helminth doesn't suddenly nerf TS. It's a community health check adjustment, not a "nerf the big popular thing" thread.

[Redphienix]

8 hours ago, shockwave311 said:

Ah yes, the frame that doesnt do anything if you dont play the game is somehow braindead and uninteractive? Revenant encourages people to actually play by moving around and use their weapons for once.

Revenant was implemented before Steel Path was a thing, and during the era where LITERALLY EVERYONE used Saryn, Volt, Mirage...etc. And if bored, play something like max range Frost, Ember..etc.

 

You dont hate Revenant because he is braindead, but rather you hate him because he doesnt help you like Wisp does. And not every frame has to be like Wisp. If they are playing the game (unlike AFK Wukong clone playstyle before nerf), that is ENOUGH in my books. Period.

 

I would like to clarify that I don't say Rev is braindead and uninteractive purely from a place of disdain, if anything it's disappointment in what his kit could be adjusted to be.

There are plenty of weapon platform frames and they often shine in their positions- Rev is kinda just "I won't die" the frame despite having some of the coolest tools in the game (that go unused).

But to put it more clearly, for better or worse, Rev P is currently my most used warframe. So I'm not speaking as some hater on the outside, though in an attempt to gain common ground I did speak harshly- potentially harsher than I would in normal circumstances- and that made it appear much more like I simply wanted to tell Rev off.

 

My issues with Rev are how 1 note his kit has become over the years when I personally think they picked the wrong note to focus on. He has, for my money, the most interesting conversion ability in the entire game- Enthrall LITERALLY self propagates- THAT'S SICK.

And is it good? Eh. Kinda. It pretty much just exists to distract enemies on interception as Rev is 90% a weapon platform with mesmer. And that loss of potential kinda sucks :/

But to re-re-reiterate my point in any comments I made on Rev- whether you like him or hate him- whether you think his kit is PERFECT or FLAWED- I don't remotely in any way think Rev is comparable to any of the big button topics the community brings up in regards to coop-hostile strategies.

IE: I don't think Rev in any MEANINGFUL way makes the game less fun for other players. I think he ARGUABLY makes the game less fun for the user- but that probably comes from overuse on my part as I find other frames far more interactive in how they stay alive and get the killing done.

The instances in which Rev DOES 'harm' allies are so niche and unimpactful in my eyes that I just can't pretend I see him as a true problem- just as a frame that could use a touch up.

(It's annoying to have your hunter adrenaline turned off but you trade it for invulnerability so like~ Eeeeeeeh, it "sucks" but it's not player hostile. And the same for Chroma Vex, yes that sucks, but you're invulnerable now, just deal with it until the mission ends etc.)

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 8 heures, shockwave311 a dit :

Ah yes, the frame that doesnt do anything if you dont play the game is somehow braindead and uninteractive? Revenant encourages people to actually play by moving around and use their weapons for once.

Revenant was implemented before Steel Path was a thing, and during the era where LITERALLY EVERYONE used Saryn, Volt, Mirage...etc. And if bored, play something like max range Frost, Ember..etc.

 

You dont hate Revenant because he is braindead, but rather you hate him because he doesnt help you like Wisp does. And not every frame has to be like Wisp. If they are playing the game (unlike AFK Wukong clone playstyle before nerf), that is ENOUGH in my books. Period.

 

Guys I found the Rev main!

 

Revenant encourages people to actually play and use their weapons? You mean, that frame that has a built-in one shot combo with his 1 & 3 ? Are you delusional or just biased?

I doubt we're playing the same Warframe. Or maybe it's my fault for "rushing" and leaving InarosSyndrome2.exe in the dust with no more targets to hit.

 

 

Back on topic, removing Thermal Sunder from Helminth also means removing Thermal Transfer, hence the only way of getting modded Cold & Heat from the Helminth. Yet I see no mention of this here.

 

If you're so hellbent on not nerfing Thermal Sunder, but nerfing the frames that abuse it, then let's play a little game of mind with this experiment...
Have its use restricted the same way Roar is :

Roar cannot be put on Mirage on any slot that's not Eclipse, Vex Armor for Chroma, Xata's Whisper for Xaku, you get the picture.
Now imagine this : Thermal Sunder can be put on any frame, but it can only be put on slots where you have access to increased mobility : Wisp's motes, Titania's Razorwing, Volt's Speed, Wukong's Cloud; but also on Energy Regenerating ability slots, like Hildryn's Pillage, Harrow's 3 and Garuda's 3. That way you nerf every single setup individually, yet keep the ability usable for frames that are otherwise less problematic with it.

Well then what happens if you do that? Suddenly nothing has changed, people still end up using it because it still does what is required of it, namely doing minor AoE damage to obliterate weak low level fodder relic enemies. Except now no one plays Titania outside of the real Titania mains that don't even bother with TS to begin with, Volt users go back to Discharge, and overall, weapons like Kuva Tonkor and what not are in peak usage. Congratulations, we have achieved nothing. We tried to change everything and even keep it fair, yet nothing has changed.

The entire reason why even if you do this nothing changes is because Warframe has gone far from what it once was. Players get stronger faster than they ever have, You want a Kuva Weapon? Just get MR 5, do War Within, get Railjack, you're good to go. Want a Tenet weapon? War Within, Call of the Tempestarii, you're done.

Let's not take the piss here, just as much as Warframe can be fun with your average mk1 braton, past a certain point you're gonna take the same decisions than others before you : "What warframe doesn't die easily?" "What weapon kills fast?" The first question is what created the Inaros syndrome in the first place, the second being less clear is why people suffering from the syndrome usually don't perform well and end up being your typical Rev main that's a safe 80m behind you while you do the job (and I'm talking about steel path, unfortunately). You wanna make some good plat? Stockpile on those rev prime sets, because until Mesmer Skin is reverted, his price will only go up when he's vaulted.

 

Also, let's not be offended by the guy bringing up a "skill issue". There comes a mastery rank where you're expected to at least somewhat perform. If I'm matchmade with some clueless mr4 opening some lith fissure in normal mode because what's on steel path doesn't suit me or normal mode has a capture, it just can't be helped, I'm not gonna crouch throughout the whole mission just to be 5 meters behind them and avoid killing the entire room on accident. Yes, that's a selfish way to experience the game, but are you deliberately going to WALK to leave some kills to beginers for the sole sake of "they deserve to have fun"? I've got the gear to go fast, I go fast. (In case you'd guess I don't deliberately walk, joke's on you I actually do, that's the only reason why I have an unforma'd Mk1 Braton, Lato and Skana in my arsenal.)

 

il y a 22 minutes, Redphienix a dit :

 I don't think Rev in any MEANINGFUL way makes the game less fun for other players. I think he ARGUABLY makes the game less fun for the user- but that probably comes from overuse on my part as I find other frames far more interactive in how they stay alive and get the killing done.

 

The instances in which Rev DOES 'harm' allies are so niche and unimpactful in my eyes that I just can't pretend I see him as a true problem- just as a frame that could use a touch up.

Yeah until you're in steel path Circuit and you have to carry 3 deadweights. Gotta love to see them panic when the mission doesn't magically self complete anymore. Thank god I'm done with Incarnons, couldn't take any more of it with your average boring Roar Rev that cries about having bad weapons in Circuit (when standard DE builds are good enough because of how busted decrees happen to be).

[shockwave311]

8 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Guys I found the Rev main!

No I dont play him anymore ever since his Prime came out. I liked playing him when no one was playing him. I am just that kind of guy

I play something else now. Like Ash invisibility and his useful passive (its why I use him over Loki), or just Zephyr's 3 that gives her true invincibility like Revenant as long as you dont get melee'd. Probably others I am forgetting about.

People keep using Revenant anyway because he is the simplest way to not die in high level content. Some people just wanna chill. Crazy huh

Its the same logic why everyone uses Titania. Oh look she's a fast frame and can fly! So they build her instead of experimenting with other frames.

8 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Revenant encourages people to actually play and use their weapons? You mean, that frame that has a built-in one shot combo with his 1 & 3 ? Are you delusional or just biased?

You're literally the biased and most delusional one here. One shot??? is that why you are complaining about Rev being deadweight in Circuit? Face it, you are complaining because everybody keeps using Mesmer Skin ONLY, you wouldnt call them deadweights if they actually one shot an entire room of enemies. His 1 needs time to spread through enemies anyway

For people like that, it doesnt matter what they play if not Revenant. They'll always be "deadweights" because not everyone wants to do research and just want to have fun

Edited January 15 by shockwave311

[shockwave311]

Back to the topic regarding Thermal Sunder, where do you see these players? I only see them for low level missions or just outside steel path in general. In that case, if Thermal Sunder is nerfed, players will always look for alternatives. As they always do.

Personally I use Equinox. Its just slower but no need for Helminth or anything.

Nothing wrong with frames having the best Helminth. At least at this point. Valkyr Warcry, Banshee Silence, Sevagoth Gloom, Grendel Nourish, Rhino Roar......etc

Its impossible to balance regular star chart at this point.

Edited January 15 by shockwave311

[NightmareT12]

Just as a note, but it seems they can treat subsumed abilities separately from the source ability, so if it ever became an issue I'd guess that's the route they'd take.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 8 heures, shockwave311 a dit :

One shot??? is that why you are complaining about Rev being deadweight in Circuit?

Obviously not. You even answer the question yourself :

Il y a 8 heures, shockwave311 a dit :

Face it, you are complaining because everybody keeps using Mesmer Skin ONLY, you wouldnt call them deadweights if they actually one shot an entire room of enemies. His 1 needs time to spread through enemies anyway

That's the part you answer your own question. And it is true, I wouldn't call Rev deadweight in Circuit if people were using his spells outside of Mesmer Skin. His 1 needing some time to spread isn't such a big worry, sure it halves the number of reaves you need to ram enemies with, but energy economy is the least of your worries in the circuit, should you get the right decrees or you're built to account for the spam. Sadly, Reave requires some reading and playing to account for the fact that it's a very strong ability (probably some of the strongest in the entire game, which double downs on my bias that Rev was made for irl npcs), things that players pick Rev specifically to avoid doing. Shieldgating is some of the strongest form of defense in the game, lasting a couple seconds at most, Rev has essentially that ability for some 50 energy except it can last a solid half minute if you stack up strength mods, assuming you are under permanent enemy fire and not retaliating, best part about that? Enemy DPS isn't factored in at any point, they could be level 1 normal chart or level cap in steel path and there wouldn't be a difference. This isn't beneficial to anyone, it's just lame gamedesign that's so bad that it doesn't even belong in the dumpster fire that is warframe's balance, which should alarm some people.

Il y a 8 heures, shockwave311 a dit :

For people like that, it doesnt matter what they play if not Revenant. They'll always be "deadweights" because not everyone wants to do research and just want to have fun

Yeah sure, but I'm talking about the circuit in steel path. You know, steel path, something that's there mainly to challenge the player, not to netflix and chill afk tab'd out of the game. I hate to break it to these guys, but they have no business being there.

 

Il y a 9 heures, shockwave311 a dit :

People keep using Revenant anyway because he is the simplest way to not die in high level content. Some people just wanna chill. Crazy huh

Or you know, maybe people who wanna just chill (walking behind the one guy doing the mission on his own) probably shouldn't be doing high level content. Perspectives, I guess.

 

Il y a 9 heures, shockwave311 a dit :

Back to the topic regarding Thermal Sunder, where do you see these players? I only see them for low level missions or just outside steel path in general. In that case, if Thermal Sunder is nerfed, players will always look for alternatives. As they always do.

That's the point I was trying to make. Taking TS off the helminth system shifts the meta, but has no consequence on overall gameplay, people are probably going to use Gauss prime starting this week because he'll be easier to obtain.

Il y a 9 heures, shockwave311 a dit :

Personally I use Equinox. Its just slower but no need for Helminth or anything.

You spoke of alternatives, this is one of them. You could also mention Gyre, which plays much like a Maimquinox, without the "release damage" part of it, and goes a bit faster due to Rotorswell. Oberon and Frost are more expensive in terms of energy usage, but it's still some long range no LoS AoE ability, Ember can do it to some degree because Inferno's LoS check is clunky as hell. Saryn is still Saryn, Mag has Crush, Volt has Discharge, and if LoS checks really do not bother you one bit, Excalibur can invest in some range and strength and get away with spamming Radial Javelin on normal fissures (while also bolstering decent movement speed when you're a range build and using slash dash to move).

If TS still hasn't been utterly crippled, it's because it's not as problematic as these countless threads make it seem to be. (Meanwhile no one knows you can take Voruna to level cap with her base kit and a range build thanks to her 4's augment)

[VasjaTheOx]

Oh god please no, i love Thermal sunder on my Limbo!

[BiancaRoughfin]

On 2024-01-10 at 3:50 AM, Hyohakusha said:

Change Gauss' subsumed ability to his 2

Wile i am an advocate against the braindead AoE playstyle people have adopted in the game, i think his 2nd ability as subsome would be equally compromising due to how strong it is for protection, unless DE prevents it from being infused into frames that already have some form of protection and/or caps its Bonus to 25~50%.