Nuke Builds Are Ruining Gameplay Enjoyment

[PublikDomain]

5 hours ago, darklord122 said:

Reasons to get better things has stagnated but there are still things always to achieve for across the spectrum of master ranks otherwise people wouldnt be grinding the way they do today and the very playstyle you complain about would also stagnate as the majority only increases.

Yes, people grind garbage weapons for Mastery. That's why we call them "Mastery Fodder". Now imagine if there was no such thing, and everything you collected was always awesome. Why would more awesome things to collect actually lead to some sort of stagnation?

And just to keep this on topic, if everything is equally awesome then content can be created that always fits that level of awesomeness in a way that lets players enjoy the game together. When only some things are awesome and everything else is fodder garbage, anyone using the fodder garbage gets left behind and doesn't get a chance to play, which isn't good. Remember, "ideally everybody gets a chance to play". DE's words not mine.

6 hours ago, darklord122 said:

However what I mean by dull is fundamentally different from you, As I can still use destiny as a prime example of everyone being on an even playing field but the gameplay and weapons have stagnated in terms of user feel as weapons get abandoned on the regular due to minute changes in stats and basically the same thing would happen in warframe as well. Including complete health gating of basic enemies and bosses. While some bosses are in warframe its not nearly as bad.

You'll have to explain it a little better then, because I don't really see how the current Warframe is any different from what you describe? Items get abandoned here just as often, only here it's more due to powercreep making them irrelevant. The Atterax used to be the hottest thing since sliced bread, and now where is it? Abandoned. And if all that's changing in Destiny is minute changes to stats, then to me at least it sounds like anyone abandoning a weapon over something so minor probably doesn't actually like that weapon in the first place and is just using whatever the meta tells them to use. Which is something people do in just the same way here. Just like how this game already has health gating of basic enemies: Corpus have shield gating, Eximus have Overguard, some basic Deimos enemies are Viral-immune, etc. And then there are the gating mechanics for bosses which have existed for almost the entirety of the game's existence and are constantly being reinvented, like with Attenuation.

6 hours ago, darklord122 said:

In the good ol days teamwork was somewhat existant yes however you still where allowed to play by yourself. And do mind this in a time where stamina and payed revives where also a thing so teamwork was very much forced as well. And people being allowed to play on their own is not a bad thing for the players as they get to feel better in relying on themselves while still having options to support teammates which many warframe's have utilizations for including the strongest ones out there.
We can talk about how in the old days we teamworked all we want however fundamentally now warframe is a completely different game from then and the design philosophy has in fact changed.

I'm not sure what solo players have to do with any of this? But yes, Warframe is indeed a completely different game these days. However, while some parts of the design philosophy have changed others haven't. The design philosophy at hand is "ideally everybody gets a chance to play", and I'm not sure how or why anyone would disagree with that or want it to be abandoned.

6 hours ago, darklord122 said:

You fully ignored the fact that TNW segments arent specifically made to nerf the player yet you insists on it based on a quote about nerfing AoE and subsist on that as an entire baseline for your argument of how DE is intending to balance everyone to be the same no matter what.

No? What I'm saying is that recent quest design didn't just show up in a vacuum. DE was perfectly happy writing quests that let us use whatever gear we wanted for many many years, but now they're more reserved about it and more frequently make everyone use the same things. Why do you think that might be? Just a whim? That's far too short-sighted. I think it's because, as DE has spelled out, they have trouble creating content that challenges the player nowadays. They can't tell a story like TNW where the player struggles against deadly Deacons and Archons if the player can walk through the room killing everything instantly without even looking at it. And this isn't new, either. It goes all the way back to TSD and TWW. How would the final confrontation with Stalker have felt if he just evaporated instantly? How would the final confrontation with the Elder Queen have felt if you just one-shot her a millisecond after the cutscene dropped? Which is ironically exactly what happens in TNW when you get your gear back. You get to the big confrontation with the third Archon, your final obstacle to overcome before taking on the big bad!... And vaporize it instantly. It's incredibly anticlimactic.

6 hours ago, darklord122 said:

You are now calling DE incompetent at designing your own game when they could have made everything a flat balance years ago yet for some reason they don't yet keep encouraging a free flowing way of play. Yet to you a few nerfs to keep challenge in the game is a sign of everyone has to be put on the same level when its still clear that its not what they are going for or much harsher changes would have already been announced and in place, Especially since damage attenuation already exists its fairly simple to just improve that yet they do not.

Again, they just adjusted Attenuation. They had to make it weaker and easier to deal with. Not more challenging, less! And yeah, they aren't going for what I think they should. Instead of balancing clearly out in the open they hide it in things like Attenuation, which ultimately fails or gets undone because it's addressing the symptoms and not the cause. So now we have to deal with mechanic soup, with the games dozens of poorly explained and unintuitive mechanics.

6 hours ago, darklord122 said:

You call DE incompetent for having a harder time balancing a completely new mode added to the game with archwing and thus balances had to be made for an entirely new experience they had never worked with before.

The what now?

6 hours ago, darklord122 said:

And you talk about them either sucking at balancing or outright lying about their intentions but they have never stated their intentions towards restricting players and their continued actions just imply the direct opposite.

They have quite plainly spelled out their intentions.

"Ideally everybody gets a chance to play."

"Overbearing abilities can make squadmates feel ineffective by seriously disrupting intended gameplay flow."

"We are not willing to further bolster AoE at this time. This is due to the increasing difficulty in creating content that serves to challenge the Tenno."

You just have to read it. And while you're right that their actions sometimes imply the opposite, when you take a step back they really don't. DE buffing melee with Melee Arcanes wasn't because they want players to be even more wildly overpowered, they spell it out quite plainly that they were added to help make melee and guns more equal. That's no different than the ideal to make more of our gear more equal, it just does it in a different (and less successful) way.

6 hours ago, darklord122 said:

Playing your own way without having to think about every action you take isnt an inherent dismissal, Its about wanting to enjoy your own experience as well. There of course exists negative results due to that but it cant be applicable to everyone as everyone eventually reach these strength's at some point just by progressing. By default everyone will be guilty of playing the way they want.

But why should your experience be allowed to ruin someone else's? Play the way you want, sure, but like both OP and DE say:

On 2024-01-19 at 10:38 AM, Zinxori- said:

Have respect for your fellow Tenno and LET THEM PLAY THE GAME TOO, or you'll risk stepping on someone's toes, even if you don't know it, or didn't intend it that way.

Quote

A majority of sessions are played co-op, so ideally everybody gets a chance to play. We’ve reached a point where players are asking us to change these weapons, because they leave so little for others to do.

[Berzerkules]

11 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

The main thing I was thinking about the filter is that, if someone knows what they’re built for, then the odds of accidental sidelining would be vastly reduced because they know that they’ve made an Arbitration build versus a level 80 build versus an SP build, and know that if they’re built for SP and drop down into Arbitrations, they’re gonna have to keep an eye out for whether they’re sidelining their teams. Like, sure, it’s not reasonable to expect content-perfect builds, but it’s fairly easy for someone to identify if they’re going to sideline someone else, it’s not exactly rocket surgery.

You have no idea what you are going on about.

Arbi  are endless missions. You don't bring a build to take on enemies at the start of the mission. You take a build that can take on enemies of any lvl because enemy lvl goes up the longer you stay. You'll be bringing the same builds you take into SP into Arbi. 

[Merkranire]

1 minute ago, Berzerkules said:

You have no idea what you are going on about.

Arbi  are endless missions. You don't bring a build to take on enemies at the start of the mission. You take a build that can take on enemies of any lvl because enemy lvl goes up the longer you stay. You'll be bringing the same builds you take into SP into Arbi. 

Oh god.

And when you bring a Steel Path build to Arbitrations, designed to go infinitely far, what do you think happens to, you know, the first few rounds people are typically going to do?

[darklord122]

Just now, Merkranire said:

Oh god.

And when you bring a Steel Path build to Arbitrations, designed to go infinitely far, what do you think happens to, you know, the first few rounds people are typically going to do?

If people didn't bring those builds going further than you need to be becomes a impossible chore. You act as if people suffer for bringing these builds in to go far when thats not really the case.

Feel free to go for that 3 mod build and go infinitely far with it, Id love to see that happen without SP build. Then you can explain why the builds we talk about aren't necessary.

[Merkranire]

1 minute ago, darklord122 said:

If people didn't bring those builds going further than you need to be becomes a impossible chore. You act as if people suffer for bringing these builds in to go far when thats not really the case.

Feel free to go for that 3 mod build and go infinitely far with it, Id love to see that happen without SP build. Then you can explain why the builds we talk about aren't necessary.

I’m not trying to go infinitely far, that’s the point, genius. I don’t expect many others to go infinitely far either unless you’re farming, in which case go join the other side of the filter

[Berzerkules]

1 minute ago, Merkranire said:

Oh god.

And when you bring a Steel Path build to Arbitrations, designed to go infinitely far, what do you think happens to, you know, the first few rounds people are typically going to do?

You do know that DE give a frame and weapon a 300% strength/damage buff for arbi right?

Like DE is making players stronger for those specific missions. That's what the are there for. To bring OP builds and farm. 

I can't, I just cant. 

[darklord122]

34 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

They have quite plainly spelled out their intentions.

"Ideally everybody gets a chance to play."

"Overbearing abilities can make squadmates feel ineffective by seriously disrupting intended gameplay flow."

"We are not willing to further bolster AoE at this time. This is due to the increasing difficulty in creating content that serves to challenge the Tenno."

You just have to read it. And while you're right that their actions sometimes imply the opposite, when you take a step back they really don't. DE buffing melee with Melee Arcanes wasn't because they want players to be even more wildly overpowered, they spell it out quite plainly that they were added to help make melee and guns more equal. That's no different than the ideal to make more of our gear more equal, it just does it in a different (and less successful) way.

But why should your experience be allowed to ruin someone else's? Play the way you want, sure, but like both OP and DE say:

Ill just say as a final note that while their philosophy is that Ideally everyone gets a chance to play they actively have allowed the playstyle and encourage it across the game's lifecycle and even have put in specific things for such players to strive for and challenge. Pablo's boss being the very prime example.

So why should end game players experiences need to be ruined and need to be cautious around every corner when their playstyle is also a valid way to play and a way everyone can and will reach, Negative experiences will always be a thing and we can go and say that every time someone reaches a threshold its then unfair for them to play the way they want but its not unfair to let them subsequently nerf themselves at every opportunity and the only other way to subsequently make it fair is to flatten them entirely, Not everything can be inclusive at every corner.

Differing playstyle's exist as of right now and we both have differing perspectives on it. We will just see what the future holds from what DE plans. I'd rather not continue for another 8 pages with you like with Merk so ill just amicably say that we both have valid points from different sides and the game fundamentally has a balance that needs to be looked at. However we both don't decide what route DE should and will go. So we will see what happens I guess.

Edited February 9 by darklord122

[darklord122]

4 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

I’m not trying to go infinitely far, that’s the point, genius. I don’t expect many others to go infinitely far either unless you’re farming, in which case go join the other side of the filter

You not wanting to go infinitely far is fine, Don't scrutinize others for wanting that however as most players go for that especially in arbitrations, Where the main reward is achieved by grinding continuously.

Stop babbling about your filter, It doesn't exist and you just are acting more immature.

[darklord122]

8 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

You do know that DE give a frame and weapon a 300% strength/damage buff for arbi right?

Like DE is making players stronger for those specific missions. That's what the are there for. To bring OP builds and farm. 

I can't, I just cant. 

At this point I give up with him because he will adamantly want to play his way in a game that rewards you for grinding far but he wants to stop short.

Wonder if he thinks its fair to leave the rest of the 3 players to grind thus leaving more room for mission failure, A lot of the teamwork especially at later levels is about clearing out the enemies quickly after all. Though I doubt he would consider that.

Edited February 9 by darklord122

[Merkranire]

8 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

You do know that DE give a frame and weapon a 300% strength/damage buff for arbi right?

Like DE is making players stronger for those specific missions. That's what the are there for. To bring OP builds and farm. 

I can't, I just cant. 

They’re there to elevate builds that don’t normally cut it, they can be used to pushed builds that already cut it and you want to go further. They’re not guaranteed “You’re going infinitely far”

5 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

You not wanting to go infinitely far is fine, Don't scrutinize others for wanting that however as most players go for that especially in arbitrations, Where the main reward is achieved by grinding continuously.

Stop babbling about your filter, It doesn't exist and you just are acting more immature.

I know it doesn’t I want it to so that you and I don’t need to talk

[darklord122]

Just now, Merkranire said:

They’re there to elevate builds that don’t normally cut it, they can be used to pushed builds that already cut it and you want to go further. They’re not guaranteed “You’re going infinitely far”

Damn that 300% ability strength on kullervo, A warframe that indeed does not normally cut it and desperately needs that buff. It sure doesn't make the frame trivially kill enemies or anything. Noooo.

Dear god. You really do believe everything has to be undercut. Wow.

[Berzerkules]

1 minute ago, Merkranire said:

They’re there to elevate builds that don’t normally cut it, they can be used to pushed builds that already cut it and you want to go further. They’re not guaranteed “You’re going infinitely far”

[Merkranire]

7 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Dude, don’t bring dogs into this…

You wanna be a prick, don’t make me associate that happy thing with you

[ZantenZan]

43 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

The main thing I was thinking about the filter is that, if someone knows what they’re built for, then the odds of accidental sidelining would be vastly reduced because they know that they’ve made an Arbitration build versus a level 80 build versus an SP build, and know that if they’re built for SP and drop down into Arbitrations, they’re gonna have to keep an eye out for whether they’re sidelining their teams. Like, sure, it’s not reasonable to expect content-perfect builds, but it’s fairly easy for someone to identify if they’re going to sideline someone else, it’s not exactly rocket surgery.

It’s true that if the filter is trying to be too specific, then it’d be a nightmare to try and implement; hence the trust in people using their sense of judgement to provide wiggle room but still make it clear what expectations would be.

I do think the pre-build idea has merit, though I’m not such a fan of how strict it would probably feel; part of the enjoyment comes from making a personal build do what you want, and though I do kind of wonder if bad apples need to be taught a lesson by the developers themselves, I’d rather just match with someone else who’s also looking to match for some gameplay alongside, and put trust in people having good intentions

I think the best way of implementing some sort of filter would be, for lack of better terms, an 'Efficiency vs. Experience' option, with one obviously signifying a desire to just get through the matchmade content as quickly as humanly possible, and the other specifically advocating for a slower roll. I even think that Efficiency should be the default setting, and that someone should have to toggle Experience, rather than vice versa, just to sidestep the more overpowering players who ironically might just load in a mission without taking the time to fiddle with matchmaking preferences, i.e. the only nukes who end up in a slow-roll match would likely be deliberately griefing, and might be a more clear-cut thing to report.

Because part of what makes chunks of this a grey area for me is that, as a free to play game, Warframe obviously relies on some pretty grindy game mechanics in order to accumulate certain resources, blueprints, etc, etc. I got into Eidolon hunts back when they were a fresh mechanic, for example, and of course they were a really nifty, different game mode... but not only did you have to play that game mode loads and loads of times in order to progress early Amp building and other Quills benefits, it was also a game mode that was only available during the night cycle. It would literally end prematurely if the sun came up! So, more and more, the emphasis was around trying to squeeze out as many Eidolon runs in a single night cycle as one possibly could, racing a clock. Because if you wanted your Amp, or to unlock your Waybound Nodes, you were gonna have to run a bunch of these one way or another, especially if you couldn't grind Focus through combat as effectively as I can now.

Some content offers bounty payouts for RNG loot and faction experience, with rarity rolls and all. Zariman and Entrati Laboratory tilesets now have hidden pickups to find, meaning some squad members might decide to take things slow and poke around for all the shinies, while others just want to get through so they can roll the Exterminate bounty reward another five times before bed. Even Relic Exterminate and Capture missions create a sense of artificial scarcity, because they are objectively the quickest modes to crack a relic when going full throttle, meaning you can crack more relics/get more void traces in a given period of time, but they're only sporadically available to play compared to a larger number of objectively slower mission modes. 

I think there's a number of cases where 'slower run' would translate to 'much longer grind' for a given objective, which is why there should be something in place to help partition those who are more focused on a given destination rather than the journey itself. Right now, everyone's kind of getting thrown together hodgepodge, one side of the fence upset that their experience is being ruined, and the other side of the fence upset that their time is being wasted. Which I would imagine is why this thread has been going on for 18 pages now. :P

[Merkranire]

2 hours ago, ZantenZan said:

I think the best way of implementing some sort of filter would be, for lack of better terms, an 'Efficiency vs. Experience' option, with one obviously signifying a desire to just get through the matchmade content as quickly as humanly possible, and the other specifically advocating for a slower roll. I even think that Efficiency should be the default setting, and that someone should have to toggle Experience, rather than vice versa, just to sidestep the more overpowering players who ironically might just load in a mission without taking the time to fiddle with matchmaking preferences, i.e. the only nukes who end up in a slow-roll match would likely be deliberately griefing, and might be a more clear-cut thing to report.

Because part of what makes chunks of this a grey area for me is that, as a free to play game, Warframe obviously relies on some pretty grindy game mechanics in order to accumulate certain resources, blueprints, etc, etc. I got into Eidolon hunts back when they were a fresh mechanic, for example, and of course they were a really nifty, different game mode... but not only did you have to play that game mode loads and loads of times in order to progress early Amp building and other Quills benefits, it was also a game mode that was only available during the night cycle. It would literally end prematurely if the sun came up! So, more and more, the emphasis was around trying to squeeze out as many Eidolon runs in a single night cycle as one possibly could, racing a clock. Because if you wanted your Amp, or to unlock your Waybound Nodes, you were gonna have to run a bunch of these one way or another, especially if you couldn't grind Focus through combat as effectively as I can now.

Some content offers bounty payouts for RNG loot and faction experience, with rarity rolls and all. Zariman and Entrati Laboratory tilesets now have hidden pickups to find, meaning some squad members might decide to take things slow and poke around for all the shinies, while others just want to get through so they can roll the Exterminate bounty reward another five times before bed. Even Relic Exterminate and Capture missions create a sense of artificial scarcity, because they are objectively the quickest modes to crack a relic when going full throttle, meaning you can crack more relics/get more void traces in a given period of time, but they're only sporadically available to play compared to a larger number of objectively slower mission modes. 

I think there's a number of cases where 'slower run' would translate to 'much longer grind' for a given objective, which is why there should be something in place to help partition those who are more focused on a given destination rather than the journey itself. Right now, everyone's kind of getting thrown together hodgepodge, one side of the fence upset that their experience is being ruined, and the other side of the fence upset that their time is being wasted. Which I would imagine is why this thread has been going on for 18 pages now. :P

I think you imagine correctly, though this has been going on for days as well so I can’t quite be certain that there’s not some alternative arguments that went on; would need to double-check to confirm how many threads were explored

 

Hmm, yeah. That was some alternative descriptions for the two sides I’ve wondered about as well, because you’re not wrong about how grindy the game can get; it’s quite good about sort of teasing out even more rewards just from using the stuff we got and playing at a reasonable rate, but when it comes to things like Eidolons, the experience is a little less open to alternative playstyles than your standard missions. Personally I do find the day/night cycle a thing to guide me when I’m not sure what I want to do next, but it’ll be a while before I got all the Arcanes, which I’m fine with but sometimes I just want to do a quick run in a short amount of time. I think that defaulting it to farming to prevent farmers accidentally entering a group trying to have some gameplay is a clever idea, though I worry about the implied message that the game’s not meant to be experienced, but that’s kind of uncertainty talking and I’d like to see tests or something to get a true sense.

I don’t want to remove the grind-fast options, partly because those options are mine to use as well and I use them just fine, partly because it’s often just the result of merely building for higher-level and taking it lower; just remove the conflict that arises when two players are so at odds with each other that they’re not even playing the same game despite being in the same mission. Ultimately, two filter options seems too simple to work, but I figure we need to leave some room for our personal judgement to come into play, and if it can be reduced to two filter options, fantastic

Edited February 9 by Merkranire
extra partly

[Nira]

Guys, I really think at this point it's a case of agree to disagree, or live and let live.

If your point has not been made after 18 pages of back-and-forth I don't think it ever will be.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Yes, people grind garbage weapons for Mastery. That's why we call them "Mastery Fodder". Now imagine if there was no such thing, and everything you collected was always awesome. Why would more awesome things to collect actually lead to some sort of stagnation?

And just to keep this on topic, if everything is equally awesome then content can be created that always fits that level of awesomeness in a way that lets players enjoy the game together. When only some things are awesome and everything else is fodder garbage, anyone using the fodder garbage gets left behind and doesn't get a chance to play, which isn't good. Remember, "ideally everybody gets a chance to play". DE's words not mine.

You'll have to explain it a little better then, because I don't really see how the current Warframe is any different from what you describe? Items get abandoned here just as often, only here it's more due to powercreep making them irrelevant. The Atterax used to be the hottest thing since sliced bread, and now where is it? Abandoned. And if all that's changing in Destiny is minute changes to stats, then to me at least it sounds like anyone abandoning a weapon over something so minor probably doesn't actually like that weapon in the first place and is just using whatever the meta tells them to use. Which is something people do in just the same way here. Just like how this game already has health gating of basic enemies: Corpus have shield gating, Eximus have Overguard, some basic Deimos enemies are Viral-immune, etc. And then there are the gating mechanics for bosses which have existed for almost the entirety of the game's existence and are constantly being reinvented, like with Attenuation.

I'm just going to address this part of it...

Destiny was brought up, and it's highly appropriate. Destiny's "Light Levels" aren't increases in power as you progress... they're "You must be THIS tall to ride this amusement park ride" gates. Gaining Light Level in Destiny just removes a negative modifier placed on your damage against things above your light level. There is absolutely no advancement. There's no reason to get different weapons, except for the perks and how they handle. (I quit Destiny2 at the point near when they released the Osiris expansion, if things have changed since then.)

Note, that Warframe has MUCH more diversity of "how weapons work" and "how they handle"... but unique weapons generally don't have upgrade paths that keep them relevant as the power of other weapons rise... I don't think everything needs and Incarnon (I don't engage with the Incarnon system, because consistency of weapons is of primary importance, and the goal of Incarnons is to produce an "ebb and flow" of combat with ups and downs, by the devs' own words, that doesn't appeal to me one iota.) As a dev, I'd strive to have "tiers" of weapons, and then release upgrades into that progression path, so people who like a certain style of weapon can continue to enjoy it all the way up the proogression path to endgame, with variants at each stage. Obviously, this creates "mastery fodder" once you're doing content with end game tier weapons, but that creates a broader range of end game options... the horizontal growth you say you want, at the same time as providing players like me, the vertical progression system.

There are ways to creatively address the issues here, and Warframe has more tools and avenues to do so. I just don't see them taking advantage of those ways very often.

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 4 horas, Berzerkules dijo:

Don't compare a dog with merk!! Poor doggy!

[Aruquae]

2 hours ago, Nira said:

Guys, I really think at this point it's a case of agree to disagree, or live and let live.

If your point has not been made after 18 pages of back-and-forth I don't think it ever will be.

It would seem like this should happen right?

Unfortunately, you underestimate the pride of some Tenno 

[Tsukinoki]

5 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Yes, people grind garbage weapons for Mastery. That's why we call them "Mastery Fodder". Now imagine if there was no such thing, and everything you collected was always awesome. Why would more awesome things to collect actually lead to some sort of stagnation?

And why wouldn't it lead to stagnation?

After all the starter Lato is going to be able to handle the absolute toughest fights in the game without needing to do anything to it!  So why would I bother getting any other weapon when I have the strongest weapon right from the very start?  Why would I bother theory crafting builds?  Why would I bother grinding mods?

And in previous posts you mentioned even arcanes and archon shards and all that not really mattering at all....

What would be the point of grinding out different weapons?  After all none of them are going to be any better than the base Lato I started the game with.
What would be the point of running Archons or Eidolons or anything else when the rewards don't matter in any way?

I mean you can see how well this went over with Anthem, where the default weapon you have when you un-equip your gear was the strongest gun in the game for a while.......

8 hours ago, ZantenZan said:

Having a single pre-curated build that leaves little to no wiggle room to figure out tricks, though? Much easier to pull off and tweak where necessary if someone does find a loophole. And confining it to a separate mode still leaves player choice on the table, by giving those who want to specifically avoid running missions with overpowering players a place to go instead. Even extend it so it can serve as an alternative way to run, say, an Archon hunt, giving players have the option of avoiding a team where three of the four participants are packing Phenmors and the boss is about to get Sonny Corleoned.

Sure, the fight would take waaaaaay longer that way, but presumably that's what these people would be signing up for.

Ok, and what would be locked behind this mode to force people to run it?

After all no rewards, and next to no one would bother to run it because why?  Why sacrifice any and all build diversity and theory crafting and anything else becaus eyou'll be slapped with a build where if you figure out any way to do better than the baseline they'll just nerf it?

And depending on what rewards you slap behind it now you're forcing people to engage with the system in order to get the rewards, regardless of whether they want to or not.

 

It's the same issue with people complaining that they are "forced" to do steel path for some rewards in the game.

Lock something exclusive behind it?  You're now forced to do it.
Don't do that?  And the mode is essentially dead on arrival with so few people playing it you can't get a match going.

Edited February 9 by Tsukinoki

[Zimzala]

5 hours ago, Nira said:

Guys, I really think at this point it's a case of agree to disagree, or live and let live.

If your point has not been made after 18 pages of back-and-forth I don't think it ever will be.

 

2 hours ago, Aruquae said:

It would seem like this should happen right?

Unfortunately, you underestimate the pride of some Tenno 

18 pages?

My fellow Tenno, I have watched game forums and BBS forums before them for a couple decades+ now argue this very topic in circles.

There are simply members of the gaming community that cannot comprehend they are not being persecuted when others will not obey their house rules. 

Thousands and thousands of 'pages' of typically 2-5 people who simply cannot comprehend that game companies and matchmaking filters are not intended to create a nanny-state that solves their personal issues with how other members of the gaming community play games.

These same endless-ouroboros-like fights over 'players should play my way, the game makers should force them to, OP/Speed runners ruin everything vs. Slow Down for the rest of us, etc.' has been prominent on any game discussion forum that has matchmaking, literally since we could fight about it, in game stores even before we had the Internet to use to fight about it.

This is a truly endless hamster-wheel argument, simply because no game maker can change the human condition.

But, never-the-less, it's hilarious to watch!

Some people paint themselves mentally onto the intractable hills and just refuse to die on them, and they provide much schadenfreude.

[Aruquae]

18 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

But, never-the-less, it's hilarious to watch!

I agree, get the popcorn to watch my favorite show at Tenno clock. New argument threads every day!

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Dude, I know what missions entail, better than you because I’m not perpetually overbuilt for the content and thus engage with it on its level and reasonably close to how it’s meant to play out. And there’s a difference between playing within proximity to someone else and playing alongside someone else.

But again, the game’s as simple as you think it is, the choices of what to bring and how to build it as simple as you claim. Your expectations aren’t founded on ignorance, your logic isn’t missing chunks

Yet you uhm ended up straight up lying about using a certain build for arbitrations. Wouldnt someone that knows how to build in a considerate fashion mention real builds? So it's kinda hard to take you seriously when you claim you are left with nothing to do in missions when several of us never experience that, even if we dont hog all the kills when we play.

And what is "playing alongside" to you? Full on SWAT formation, hand on shoulder, target by target, room to room as a tight group of 4? Or is it the old Knee by knee in narrow closed lines marching as one until you see the whites in the eyes of the enemy?

[SneakyErvin]

9 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Yes, people grind garbage weapons for Mastery. That's why we call them "Mastery Fodder". Now imagine if there was no such thing, and everything you collected was always awesome. Why would more awesome things to collect actually lead to some sort of stagnation?

And just to keep this on topic, if everything is equally awesome then content can be created that always fits that level of awesomeness in a way that lets players enjoy the game together. When only some things are awesome and everything else is fodder garbage, anyone using the fodder garbage gets left behind and doesn't get a chance to play, which isn't good. Remember, "ideally everybody gets a chance to play". DE's words not mine.

It wouldnt matter. Your initial point was that the problem is with meta, since you obviously didnt really see @darklord122 point which was all categories can be as good as the other. And even if you make everything good with an intent to annihilate the meta, there will still always be a meta, since something will always be better than something else, even if only slightly. So that problem isnt solved by making everything "good". We have just as much variety now since not everyone follows the meta. There would still always be a gap in mechanics so there is a reason for DE to design for instance another thrown secondary instead of a semi or full auto pistol, or something with an alternate use like the Grimoire. Things that would simply push certain weapons to higher usage than others naturally.

And if you make everything "good" just so everything is very similar, that in itself will lead to massive stagnation since everything will play the same. So you wont have a reason to pick anything else, or even have a chance to in order to experience a different playstyle to spice things up when you hit stagnation with your current setup. At that point they might aswell just make Rifle, Pistol and Melee, with everything else just being skins for either of those. You just wont be able to make everything "good" unless you remove what currently sets them apart. Lower the dps on the Knukor to be inline with a Kunai and you will still have a weapon that handles more than 1 enemy at a time. Remove the option to engage more than 1 enemy at a time with the Knukor and you just have a pistol with a beam visual that has the same dps as a pistol with a thrown visual (Kunai).

It ends up the same for practically any type of weapon if you try to make them all good. Since you'll never be able to make them as effective as the other because they'll all still have different spreads, shots per second, mag size, reload times etc. All things that will eventually result in a meta and push certain weapon to higher usage over others. You could do it within each class, but that would also kill weapons within those classes that currently make them unique.

Like Tiberon, Quarthakk, Corinth, Amprex, Ignis and so on. Should the Tiberon have all but one fire mode removed? Should all guns have 3 seperate modes? Should the Corinth have the grenade removed? Should all weapons get underslung nade launchers? Should chain beams of the Amprex get removed, should Ignis turn into a chain beam? Should Amprex get heat or ignis get elextricity, or should both be turned into 33/33/33 IPS weapons together with every other gun/weapon out there? Tatsu will no longer have the slide perk, Tenet and Kuva weapons will no longer have innate damage perks, Zenistar just lost the disk, Furax Wraith just lost the heat field, Tenet Tetra no longer exsists since it is just a Tetra. Should every single variant also get shanked?

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

7 hours ago, Nira said:

Guys, I really think at this point it's a case of agree to disagree, or live and let live.

If your point has not been made after 18 pages of back-and-forth I don't think it ever will be.

Normally I'd agree, but at this point it's pure trolling and I'm here for it