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Mesmer Skin should be nerfed


_GoodLuck_
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Literally "press to be immortal" with zero effort. Don't get me wrong, Revenant is a good Warframe but:

  1. Trinity with 99% Damage Reduction was nerfed;
  2. Indestructible Frost Snowglobe was nerfed;
  3. Overguard limit was added (for Frost and Styanax augments);
  4. ...

So why does such overpowered ability still exist? In fact, Revenant can make an entire team immortal using Mesmer Shield.

My suggestion is pretty simple:

  1. Reduce maximum charges to 1 (not affected by mods);
  2. Increase overall speed cast;
  3. Increase energy cost to 100;
  4. Add 3s (not affected by mods) invulnerability after losing all charges and 6s cooldown (affected by duration mods and can be reduced to 3s);
  5. While invulnerable, all hits stun enemies and open them for his Enthrall;
  6. Mesmer skin can be casted while Danse Macabre is active;
  7. While Danse Macabre is active, energy cost reduced to 50*

Mesmer Shield:

  1. Nearby allies get Mesmer Skin effect

Conclusion:

With these changes you can still be immortal but at least you need to put in some effort. E.g you can reduce cooldown to 3s and max your shields to get 2.5s shield-gate, so only 0.5s will be dangerous for you.

 

Thoughts?

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Just now, _GoodLuck_ said:

Don't get me wrong, Revenant is a good Warframe but

yeah thats why you never see that frame in public games, right? bringing wisp or citrine into a lobby will already make everyone immortal for 100% of the content that is actually being played, while also bringing a bit more to a team than just that.

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i agree he should be nerfed, however i dont think your solution is the correct one.

i'd rather see his mesmer skin work in a similar fashion to amesha's watchful swarm.

mesmer skin has the following advantages over watchful swarm:

>mesmer skin stuns anything that shoots you for 5 seconds (modified by duration), stunned targets can be enthralled for free.

>mesmer skin reflects both damage and status effects while watchful swarm just nullifies them.

>mesmer skin can restore charges by making use of reave on thralls

>mesmer skin grants 1 second of invulnerability with each charge, watchful swarm just absorbs the hit.

mesmer skin also has the following disadvantages:

>mesmer skin CAN be applied to allies but not as effectively as watchful swarm

>mesmer skin has a much lower amount of charges (6 base VS 15 base)

>mesmer skin doesnt nullify environmental hazards

 

i'd like to propose the following changes:

#1: lower the invulnerability window to 0.25s or remove it entirely

#2: double the amount of charges mesmer skin gets at base from 6 to 12

#3: allow the thrall charge restoration mechanic to be modified by one of your ability stats. 

#4: when mesmer skin runs out, it goes on a 15 second cooldown.

 

on top of this, i'd like to make a buff to his thralls where thralls can't be killed by allies. the main issue with thralls right now is that they're basically useless since allies will usually instantly nuke them. making thralls actually stick around means you can now rely on using reave on them to restore charges.

this means that between the thrall restoration mechanic now being useable and the fact mesmer skin goes onto a cooldown if you lose all your charges, you get this loop of using enthrall and reave to keep your mesmer skin up. actually using your whole kit. 

by turning revenant from a "press 2 for immortality" frame to a frame that uses ability synergy, it doesnt ruin his current main use (being immortal) but it DOES make him no longer a braindead playstyle (which imho is the main issue).  

 

 

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This seems to be their mentality these days when it comes to abilities like this. Abilities that actually make you invincible, such as absorb or hysteria, are kneecapped to high heaven. Meanwhile, abilities that technically don't make you immortal but do make you functionality invincible for 99.9% of content, like mesmer skin or final stand (with intrepid stand), get a free pass. They even buffed mesmer skin after the eximus rework because eximus units were shredding it. I get that frames are most likely designed by different people (and, notably, at different points in the game's life cycle) but the fact that these abilities are allowed to coexist with vastly different power levels is a bit jarring.

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1 hour ago, iHaku said:

yeah thats why you never see that frame in public games, right? bringing wisp or citrine into a lobby will already make everyone immortal for 100% of the content that is actually being played, while also bringing a bit more to a team than just that.

What’s your point?? The op is correct nobody mentioned wisp or citrine because the post was about rev.

Edited by (PSN)FrDiabloFr
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I think those are interesting ideas.

I don't have any particular strong thoughts or feelings, as far as, A. I don't really play Revenant much, since I find him a bit boring. B. I am neither inherently against such changes or nerfs, or his kit staying the same, and remaining as is.

That being said, I still do have some mild thoughts. I almost think such a nerf would be too overzealous Too heavy handed. Do I think Revenant is very strong and nigh immortal? Yes, but this is Warframe, and a lot of Warframes can be nigh immortal, and yes, I do know that a lot of them, can be, but it requires more effort and dedication, but my general point is that its relative, and its not necessarily a bad thing that some have an easier time of it than others. Like I personally think that Revenant, Rhino, Nezha, Wukong and Citrine are all, a bit "one button" and survive easy Warframes, but also I find three of those Warframes really boring to play... Which involves a bit of subjectivity, sure, but sometimes, a Warframes strength can sort of be balanced by other factors, which then in a weird way can create niches and variety. Now... it just so happens that in Warframe, not being able to die, is a pretty notable and desired positive, especially with certain content thats been introduced in the recent few years. So thats also probably tied into why Revenant has become a lot more popular and why Mesmer Skin seems more criticised as of late. 

His popularity isn't that extreme though, compared to say Wukong. 

Personally? I also tend to prefer the "we nerf but we buff too" type mentality. Also like I said, despite writing a lot, I don't play Revenant and don't feel strongly about him being nerfed, buffed or remaining the same. I do think that in one way, giving people who do Archons and Netracells, a "use this Warframe if you are really anxious and worried about dying and missing out on good rewards" isn't necessarily a bad thing, and can be a good thing... Selfishly though, I would also probably use Revenant more if Mesmer Skin was nerfed a little, but maybe some of his other abilities and how they interact with each other were buffed or improved. So you nerf a little, and buff a little. Just big nerfs tend to not go over well, and DE doesn't seem to just do that, unless a Warframe's popularity gets pretty lopsided (which it may. Maybe next year Revenant's popularity and red bar starts to extend way past the nearest competition). 

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1 hour ago, (PSN)FrDiabloFr said:

What’s your point?? The op is correct nobody mentioned wisp or citrine because the post was about rev.

I mentioned those 2 frames because they are examples of frames that do what OP critisized revenant for (but do it better), while at the same time are able to do more for the team than what he is.

revenant doesnt exist in a bubble. there are 54 or so other frames that one could be playing instead and obviously he's going to be compared to them. every frame should atleast have a niche that they fit into while at the same time be enjoyable to play, but right now he barely has one of the two, if you like the spin. and just "his invincibility is op, nerv please" doesnt fix anything, he's already barely ever looked at because he just kinda sucks.

Edited by iHaku
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6 minutes ago, iHaku said:

I mentioned those 2 frames because they are examples of frames that do what OP critisized revenant for (but do it better), while at the same time are able to do more for the team than what he is.

revenant doesnt exist in a bubble. there are 54 or so other frames that one could be playing instead and obviously he's going to be compared to them. every frame should atleast have a niche that they fit into while at the same time be enjoyable to play, but right now he barely has one of the two, if you like the spin. and just "his invincibility is op, nerv please" doesnt fix anything, he's already barely ever looked at because he just kinda sucks.

Well no they don’t make you immortal, so the point is still empty wisp and citrine are great healers but they certainly don’t make you immortal you still take damage, also rev is one of the highest used frames (to be fair from newer players) but still his kit is solid ye he’s boring, but the main point we are discussing is your comment on wisp and citrine.

Edited by (PSN)FrDiabloFr
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7 minutes ago, (PSN)FrDiabloFr said:

Well no they don’t make you immortal, so the point is still empty wisp and citrine are great healers but they certainly don’t make you immortal you still take damage.

if you have either on your team, you can literally go afk in pretty much all content, including netracells, which is, right now, the supposedly hardest content in the game outside of doing endless endurance runs, the amount of people that actually do that more than once in their live tho you can probably count on one hand.

so yes, they make you functionally immortal, as you can not die unless you somehow avoid staying in range of their buffs, which could be said about revenant aswell. you'd have to go out of your way with dragon keys and unequipting adaptation to even entertain the possibility of death.

Edited by iHaku
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7 minutes ago, iHaku said:

if you have either on your team, you can literally go afk in pretty much all content, including netracells, which is, right now, the supposedly hardest content in the game outside of doing endless endurance runs, the amount of people that actually do that more than once in their live tho you can probably count on one hand.

so yes, they make you functionally immortal, as you can not die unless you somehow avoid staying in range of their buffs, which could be said about revenant aswell. you'd have to go out of your way with dragon keys and unequipting adaptation to even entertain the possibility of death.

Still not immortal, you can still be damaged, i get your point, but the point still remains you take damage rev does not, and well the only thing that bypasses mesmer skin is high tox damage ie archon nira can shred through revenant, it’s literally the only thing that can make mesmer redundant or nullifiers of course.

Edited by (PSN)FrDiabloFr
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IDK why people are obsessed with nerfing stuff that doesn't affect them or their gameplay in any way or form, some of the suggestions i seen here would legit drop revenant to caliban's playrate

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5 hours ago, _GoodLuck_ said:

Trinity with 99% Damage Reduction was nerfed

In what, 2014? You act like the game hasn't had a massive power (difficulty) level increase. Or that the devs might have a different mindset 9-10 years later.

You know what was also nerfed? The Catchmoon. But even if it hadn't been nerfed, it'd be in the mastery fodder bin all the same. We now have weapons like the Lex Incarnon, Nataruk, Tenet Plasmor, Stropha, etc...

5 hours ago, _GoodLuck_ said:

Overguard limit was added (for Frost and Styanax augments);

Because it's not their main role (not to mention Styanax was/is near infinitely better at making the team unkillable). Revenant can do some other things, but his main role is of that of a tank thanks to how poor his 4 preforms (similar to frames like Wisp).

Overguard also has better defense than MS, making you immune to more CC types and being more practical in 98% of the game.

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4 hours ago, AERO5MITH said:

This seems to be their mentality these days when it comes to abilities like this. Abilities that actually make you invincible, such as absorb or hysteria, are kneecapped to high heaven. Meanwhile, abilities that technically don't make you immortal but do make you functionality invincible for 99.9% of content, like mesmer skin or final stand (with intrepid stand), get a free pass. They even buffed mesmer skin after the eximus rework because eximus units were shredding it. I get that frames are most likely designed by different people (and, notably, at different points in the game's life cycle) but the fact that these abilities are allowed to coexist with vastly different power levels is a bit jarring.

This comparison is spot on, well said. The juxtaposition really puts it into perspective.

6 hours ago, _GoodLuck_ said:

Literally "press to be immortal" with zero effort. Don't get me wrong, Revenant is a good Warframe but:

Thoughts?

I actually think he's a bad design from top to bottom. I hate his entire kit and it feels about as good to play as Chroma's to me (not fun, extra clunky).

Regardless of that though, I think everyone is very well aware that Mesmer Skin and Intrepid Stand are both just a little bit ridiculous at this point - there's a line somewhere that these two abilities have crossed. It's hard to point to, but we all know it's there. I honestly hate that there's only one way to play Styanax now - unending 4 spam - I think this augment, as good as it is, kinda ruined him. He turned from a versatile workhorse into a one note oppressive spammer.

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58 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

In what, 2014? You act like the game hasn't had a massive power (difficulty) level increase. Or that the devs might have a different mindset 9-10 years later.

Pablo has gone on record that 95% DR it still too much (which was the driving factor for them not making Mirage's Eclipse consistent). 99% DR would still be nerfed today, because the modern standard is 90% DR. Trinity currently has 93.75% DR, but getting that also requires high maintenance upkeep (keeping two separate abilities active, both of which have extremely short durations) and is extremely expensive to build to a reasonable level (many forma and full tauforged shards).

Edited by Hexerin
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I'm glad someone finally decides to adress the elephant in the room.

Maybe your suggestion isn't the best, but Mesmer Skin granting permanent invulnerability by just stacking a bunch of strength is complete bs.

We're not even talking damage reduction like Citrine or Gara, we're talking straight up invulnerability. No matter the damage you take while Mesmer Skin is up, your health will never drop below 2.

 

What some people don't seem to understand is that no matter how hard enemies are scaled up, Revenant will not die. While you may add up several 90% damage reduction sources at once, like Citrine + Gara + Adaptation, past level 3~4k in SP, everything oneshots, and it just shows, especially if you've ever played Nyx at these levels, Chaos goes from a CC ability to a DPS ability because of how enemies have that much more damage than eHP, even though the latter is counted well in the millions. So every shot you take has you in the need to regenerate your shieldgate. Unless you're Revenant, in which case you're on to the next stack.

 

Revenant Prime is a frame I get to see just about every day, as I'll spend most of my time doing stuff in steel path, with players of rank anywhere from low MR to L4. If overguard is that much better than mesmer skin, why do I see so much more rev prime players than frost & styanax abusers? Protea is a frame that can make anyone pretty much immortal with the shieldgate from her shield satelite grenades, granted they're not inaros kullervo or nidus, but you don't see all too many of them, same thing with Hildryn who was the first to do this.

 

Frankly, it's sad we don't have updated item usage, because I'd love to see how the gun & melee meta is pretty much the same aside from incarnon genesis, but as for frames we'd see how Rev & Wisp are pretty much everywhere, more than any other frame, although Gauss Prime being recently released has changed that, since he also gets to be mostly immune to everything (most damage types used by enemies are those that Gauss's Kinetic plating reduces/negates, IPS for most ennemies, Blast for some corpus units, bombards and eximus units, cold, and lastly, heat for that one unit in grineer that has a flamethrower and arson eximus units), which is great because Gauss's entire gameplay is active, unlike the other two I mentioned before.

 

 

The thing I don't understand is how people go on to say nerfing Revenant is unfair because else he has nothing. The nothing in question : Reave. Equally as broken, scales to infinity because it's % hp true damage, yet not one single soul gives a half F. If his entire kit revolved around thralls and reave rather than this idiotic bandaid buff that only came because people were crying about stacks draining too fast while under heavy fire (which, surprise surprise, any other frame has always had issues with, hence them relying on shieldgate, cc or huge dps), but Mesmer skin already comes with access to CC. Having a 1 second invulnerability between each individual stack loss only further encourages building around maximizing the number of stacks and refreshing them by recasting the ability every time you're low on them, the cast time may be long, but it's not "Nekros summoning shadows"-long and most definitely just a detail when you can invest archon shards in casting speed rather than wasting a modslot for Natural Talent.

 

If it were up to me, Thralls, Reave and Danse Macabre would all be buffed to more easily refresh Mesmer Skin stacks, but Mesmer Skin itself would be nerfed with less invulnerability duration (0.5s just like overguard gate seems good enough a compromise for a frame that can shieldgate but also ignore damage with Reave) and a hardcap on max stacks.

Except it's not up to me. Mesmer Skin won't be changed any time soon because it's a very practical braindead tool for unskilled players, while Thralls, Reave and Danse Macabre are too complicated to build around for ungabunga players, nor does that strategy have any advantage over just spending 77.5 energy every half minute.

 

This complaint about Mesmer Skin is the same sort of discussion that we used to have about the Inaros syndrome. In short, the Inaros syndrome is having that one frame that doesn't die, but will pretty much not accomplish anything outside being unkillable, so you'll be mostly relying on weapons to do stuff.

The way Rev is incentivized to play is one that follows the Inaros effect because his gameplay loop just isn't rewarding enough and the appeal is limited when thralls have awful AI like any specters, are very limited in number and can't be targeted by certain warframe abilities, and killing them just does a puny aoe that barely lasts, all of which ends up being a worse version of Saryn's spore; Reave forcing you to move at a fixed speed and limited turn rate makes using it clunky, essentially a worse Cloud Walker, and Danse Macabre just doesn't bring anything worth your time if you have orokin catalysts, formas and arcanes in your guns and melees, outside of a huge energy drain.

Il y a 6 heures, Pakaku a dit :

Revenant can press a button to gain invulnerability to a set number of hits, and then... what else does he do, again? Funny disco light show?

This comment in particular just shows exactly what I'm trying to get at with the "Inaros syndrome". It's all tank & gun.

 

 

There's a clear reason as to why Rev Prime is my least played frame. Cheesing the entire game with a braindead strategy does not reward me with the good chemicals. I understand everybody's gotta be able to clear stuff one way or another, but, hear me out... maybe they do not deserve to if they >must< rely on free infinite immortality.

il y a 16 minutes, Hexerin a dit :

Pablo has gone on record that 95% DR it still too much (which was the driving factor for them not making Mirage's Eclipse consistent). 99% DR would still be nerfed today, because the modern standard is 90% DR. Trinity currently has 93.75% DR, but getting that also requires high maintenance upkeep (keeping two separate abilities active, both of which have extremely short durations) and is extremely expensive to build to a reasonable level (many forma and full tauforged shards).

If 95% DR is too much DR, by all means, I wonder if 100% is too much. Mesmer Skin, as it stands, is exactly that, in effect. Except it's a very low maintenance ability that also blocks staggers.

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7 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Trinity currently has 93.75% DR, but getting that also requires high maintenance upkeep (keeping two separate abilities active, both of which have extremely short durations) and is extremely expensive to build to a reasonable level (many forma and full tauforged shards).

its not that much upkeep really, especially now with archon shards. she's still my most played frame, and that was from a time before archon shards (which to be fair, havent been in the game for that long all things considered)

but you're right that you'd be crazy for wanting to do all of this upkeep just to play her when you could instead just play a frame that does it nearly just as well by putting 3 motes down. This is an arpg, and being lazy is king, if it achieves similar results.

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4 minutes ago, iHaku said:

its not that much upkeep really, especially now with archon shards. she's still my most played frame, and that was from a time before archon shards (which to be fair, havent been in the game for that long all things considered)

but you're right that you'd be crazy for wanting to do all of this upkeep just to play her when you could instead just play a frame that does it nearly just as well by putting 3 motes down. This is an arpg, and being lazy is king, if it achieves similar results.

They last less than 20 seconds, and you have to also juggle their durations to maintain 100% uptime. That is the very definition of high maintenance by modern standards. Most frames only need to press one button for a greater than 30 second duration using only a basic loadout (which can then be optimized further with shards etc).

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20 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

What some people don't seem to understand is that no matter how hard enemies are scaled up, Revenant will not die. [...] past level 3~4k in SP, everything oneshots

  1. Who cares about those levels? The game is not designed around content being anywhere near that high. If you wanna do it, do it. But do not bemoan the "balance" at those levels to get things nerfed.
  2. No frame (sans Inaros) can be "one-shot" anymore in the context you're speaking about. Do you need to be more active to get most of these? Yes (not drastically so though). But those frames are also doing a sh*t ton of other stuff while they're unkillable (relative to Rev).
  3. We already have numerous sources of practical invincibility (doesn't matter how hard enemies hit). Shield gating, straight up invulnerability, brief invulnerability on ability cast, brief invulnerability mods, invisibility, overguard gating, Vazarin invulnerability, etc...
49 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

99% DR would still be nerfed today,

  • One of the ways Trinity achieved 99% DR can still be done today with Citrine. It's stronger too I believe.
  • And slap just Adaptation on any DR frame and (within reason) they all have 99%. Or do Null Star, now it's true 99% health DR.
  • Hell, Baruuk gets 97% from just his innate kit.

2024 WF is a different game. "99% is too high today"... yeah, because there was no Adaptation, shield gate, helminth, etc... in the past.

----------------

 

Y'all (those that want MS nerfed) are way too obsessed with thinking being able to tank is somehow OP in the game... the one centered around mass horde clearing. We have what, 55 frames now? Just let there be a couple frames dedicated to tanking. You act like it doesn't have literally zero impact on your experience with the game.

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19 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:
  • One of the ways Trinity achieved 99% DR can still be done today with Citrine. It's stronger too I believe.
  • And slap just Adaptation on any DR frame and (within reason) they all have 99%. Or do Null Star, now it's true 99% health DR.
  • Hell, Baruuk gets 97% from just his innate kit.

2024 WF is a different game. "99% is too high today"... yeah, because there was no Adaptation, shield gate, helminth, etc... in the past.

I thought it would be obvious based on simple common sense, but I was referring to DR based on a frame's own kit. Not being buffed by outside sources. As they say though, common sense is not common anymore.

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Il y a 1 heure, KitMeHarder a dit :
  1. Who cares about those levels? The game is not designed around content being anywhere near that high. If you wanna do it, do it. But do not bemoan the "balance" at those levels to get things nerfed.
  2. No frame (sans Inaros) can be "one-shot" anymore in the context you're speaking about. Do you need to be more active to get most of these? Yes (not drastically so though). But those frames are also doing a sh*t ton of other stuff while they're unkillable (relative to Rev).
  3. We already have numerous sources of practical invincibility (doesn't matter how hard enemies hit). Shield gating, straight up invulnerability, brief invulnerability on ability cast, brief invulnerability mods, invisibility, overguard gating, Vazarin invulnerability, etc...
  • One of the ways Trinity achieved 99% DR can still be done today with Citrine. It's stronger too I believe.
  • And slap just Adaptation on any DR frame and (within reason) they all have 99%. Or do Null Star, now it's true 99% health DR.
  • Hell, Baruuk gets 97% from just his innate kit.

2024 WF is a different game. "99% is too high today"... yeah, because there was no Adaptation, shield gate, helminth, etc... in the past.

----------------

 

Y'all (those that want MS nerfed) are way too obsessed with thinking being able to tank is somehow OP in the game... the one centered around mass horde clearing. We have what, 55 frames now? Just let there be a couple frames dedicated to tanking. You act like it doesn't have literally zero impact on your experience with the game.

Cool beans.

Doesn't change the fact Rev is braindead.

You want practical invicibility, invulnerability of any sort, you better be pressing your buttons, and at a good pace if you're in the content where it matters. Except if you're Rev. That's the one point everyone begging DE not to nerf MS seem to dodge. Curious innit bruv.

Level cap doesn't matter from a balance perspective, however the point was merely to say if you're playing Rev, the level of the content never matters, survivability wise, you're still unable to die. You'd need to hit a respawn zone, hug a nullifier or run out of energy (which never happens past a point) to die.

 

If as a player you can turn on godmode an simply never die, no matter what happens, that's a design flaw.

 

Take Shield gating and Overguard gate for instance, both of these will have you constantly casting abilities left and right to stay alive.

 

In the case of a Rev build that's all strength mods + energy nexus with no archon shards, you can nearly sustain all of your stacks with no energy orb drops (which aren't all that uncommon to begin with), and that's assuming you're not running Zenurik for some energy regen, in which case you can just drop energy nexus and have a complete infinite sustainability of MS. Regardless of enemy level, faction, and being under constant enemy fire. How very interactive. We're gaming right now.

 

Yeah go on, keep on defending MS like your life depends on it, stay blind to the obvious.

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1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

I thought it would be obvious based on simple common sense, but I was referring to DR based on a frame's own kit. Not being buffed by outside sources. As they say though, common sense is not common anymore.

Get off your high horse. What an asinine response.

  1. Your statement about Pablo is already pointless, as frames already surpass it. Baruuk gets 97% DR with his "oWn KiT OnLy" (no armor). 95% of that is almost near infinite and basically passive.
  2. There are numerous survivability abilities/mechanics that are better than 99% DR. Arguing where the needle should fall is pointless when you can straight up not take damage in the first place. Loki, Ash, Octavia, Ivara, Voruna, helminth Quiver, Zephyr, Valkyr, the slew of invulnerability gates, etc...
  3. You can not ignore the fact the meta content back then was way easier when it comes to comparing balancing decisions.
  4. You seem to think that pressing 2 buttons on Trinity is some "massive micromanaging feat" to give her an exception to the "90% DR rule".... Do you even know how the 99% DR solo Trinity worked? The DR scaled with how much health you were missing.
    1. So you had to be at 2 health to get the full buff, which you couldn't do without Quick Thinking.
    2. Which means you had to utilize self damage to reliably get it.
    3. It also meant there were windows where you had no DR.
    4. It didn't work in coop, because everyone in Blessing's range had to be at 2 health.
    5. And this is the same 10 second base duration Blessing you were complaining about above.
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