Cavalero and his Incarnon Genesis "shop"

[Kalvorax]

Did DE ever give a reason on WHY his shop doesnt rotate like every other shop does?

I do not have the time to grind to rank 5 (and forget about rank 10.) EVERY week for just ONE of the 5 choices each week. (I dont do pugs and my clan is more or less dead, thus stuck with Solo, which works well for the most part for me due to time constraints *work lol*)

and THEN having to grind the resources needed (I took a break from warframe right before duviri dropped...came back with Whispers) for hours at a time is just as rough. (not too bad as ive been spending much more time in duviri...but still)

grinding for decrees is fun, even if pointless past the story and getting maxed outside of SP. Would love to be able to go into SC with maxed decrees solo after doing the story part.

[Voltage]

The shop was just to test the waters of selling adapters for platinum and only on that one week rotation (which was added post-duviri). I'm not sure why they left it as-is. Obviously people will want to spend platinum to bypass the time-gating. We've really gotten no word if that will be expanded or if any future adapters will have this acquisition method.

[Kalvorax]

41 minutes ago, Voltage said:

The shop was just to test the waters of selling adapters for platinum and only on that one week rotation (which was added post-duviri). I'm not sure why they left it as-is. Obviously people will want to spend platinum to bypass the time-gating. We've really gotten no word if that will be expanded or if any future adapters will have this acquisition method.

ah ok. Well hopefully they will look back into it. Id much rather spend the plat then grind for hours for a single incarnon. My job can easily get me all the incarnons in plat in 2 or 3 hours of work vs 20-30 hours of grinding....or more

[Berzerkules]

I'm not a fan of randomized loadouts. I've put a lot of time, effort, thought and plat into customizing my loadouts. Taking that away and giving me the option of using several items I already know I don't like isn't my idea of fun. I didn't farm and rank 700+ items to be allowed access to a handful of them. 

I've run several weeks of SP circuit and I'm already tired of it. The thought of running to R10 week after week after week.....then farming resources in a mode I don't enjoy only to have to then run boss fights to evolve them is just ughh. 

I love playing this game but I'm over the endless busy work at this point. I'd buy all of the incarnon weapons right now if it was an option so I could get back to playing with what I like and how I want to. 

The fact that aura mods are bugged is really killing my motivation as well. 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 24 Minuten schrieb Kalvorax:

My job can easily get me all the incarnons in plat in 2 or 3 hours of work vs 20-30 hours of grinding....or more

point! cannot be otherwise.
And if you don't get any positive emotions during this farming, then is it a waste of time? Because 20-30 hours is a lot. and you like solo? Because there are many games that are far too good with first-class stories and lots of action. So you can have a lot more adventures and before you go to sleep you'll think, that was awesome!

[Graavarg]

In my opinion the biggest fault in DE's development policy is the focus on "new content", from which follows that an enormous amount of "old content" is left for dead and that the new content also has to be flogged to death, milked for every player minute possible. It's the online game version of "consumerism", new is always both better and best, and old stuff is worthless and thrown away.

The Circuit both reflects this and counteracts it. Doing the same missions against the same enemies on the same maps over and over and over again is, funnily enough, not all that interesting. And becomes quite un-fun rather quickly. The "counter-action" is choosing older weapons for Incarnon Adapter upgrades, with a system that allows you to just use the general buffs (no need to activate Incarnon mode, unless you want to). Not only has this made quite a lot of them relevant again, but (at least for me) it has been glorious to use those old favourites again. Many of them had been collecting dust for years, complete 5-,6-,7-forma builds with rivens that became redundant due to better performing weapons. Weapons that carried me through the starchart and beyond, and that now become usable again. That has been one of the better things that's happened for a few years. But the way of getting them did get old fast, and then almost abhorrent before I had the Adaptors I wanted. Including having to do that silly Orowyrm fight over-and-over-and-over again. Did someone sane actually think all this would be "fun"?

As to the selection mechanic, since any Warframe player worth his/her salt will either have at least one "favourite" available or else leave (or not even click on the SP Circuit, since you can even check your selections in advance), it is mainly meaningless. And the amount of selections mostly rips out the mat from under the "try something new" approach. All you need is one of your better weapons, and then you select the card "buffs" for that type of play. The two S#&$ty choices you had to make is just a slight irritant during selection, since you will not use them in-mission anyway. But that renders a core idea somewhat meaningless. It also reflects a core DE development principle: aim for something challenging and then water it down so that the "want everything for free"-brigade doesn't scream too much on the forum. Just imagine a circuit where you are NOT allowed to select your gear,  where you get a new random selection after every 4th rotation and where the enemies, map and mission type varies a lot more. Now that would be interesting, it would reward players that have a good grasp of the game and as long as the rewards are "rewarding" it might even be fun.

For players that don't yet own most warframes in the game the SP Circuit is not a good starting point to try out new gear, since they WILL be overmatched. Especially during the first few rounds, before the "buff" system catches up, and then increasingly so when the enemies go past a certain level. The normal Circuit is a great way to test gear that you don't have, but that is not where Incarnon Adapters or the new Arcanes drop...

I have one single Arcane that I still need (or rather "want", in order to max rank), if that shows up in the SP Circuit before Acritis sells it I'll do another Circuit, but otherwise I'm more or less done. But that, in a way, reflects the core problem with the game:

Why on earth does Warframe have a core a design approach that results in players feeling RELIEVED when they can STOP playing some content? It seems antithetical to me, to design a game in a way that time after time generates the "finally, now I never have to do this again"-feeling. Sure, there too is a small spark of achievement and "fun", but it doesn't come from playing the game, it actually comes from not playing the game. I am not a game designer, but I do work with rather complex real world systems and issues, and for me this design philosophy is utterly incomprehensible. Because there are a lot of other options.

Warframe is one of the great games not because of this "play it until you hate it"-design, but despite it. And therein should lie a lot of food for thought.

Edited February 23 by Graavarg

[0_The_F00l]

They really should have the shop rotate as well , 

It really is a missed opportunity in my opinion.

[Aerikx]

The shop was DE testing the waters on selling Incarnon Adapters for Weapons.

It doesn't rotate in order to avoid the "Pay to Win" (Many of the Incarnons are absolute Game Changers) / disrespect time people put into the game / Paid for Pity System arguments. 

I'm fine with it not rotating tbh. Gives many people a reason to run Steel Path Circuit and thus keeps the matchmaking for it alive.

Edit:

If the circuit is too hard solo / you dislike the Loadout try public mode...

I did it once cause my random Loadout selection was absolute garbage. Very sure I got carried from rank 0 to rank 6.

I returned the favor once I literally had all 3 of my main loadout weapons appear. Carried some folks to rank 10 lmao

Edited February 23 by Aerikx

[ReddyDisco]

Wish all incarnons were added to his shop, waiting for weeks for the weapon you want is dumb

[Deputy-Facepain]

13 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

I'm not a fan of randomized loadouts. I've put a lot of time, effort, thought and plat into customizing my loadouts. Taking that away and giving me the option of using several items I already know I don't like isn't my idea of fun. I didn't farm and rank 700+ items to be allowed access to a handful of them. 

I feel very much the same. The way it throws things in I don’t own feels weighted. I try everything, gotta get the MR. The things I don’t own, I don’t want to use. The only thing that keeps me coming back, are the incarnons… I doubt they add to his shop, because I feel a lot of players will gladly bypass playing needless amounts of duviri. 
 

most of the newer content seems centered around keeping you checking game for RNG to be in your favor. There’s gotta be something worth your time, but they love waisting your time finding it. 

[Aerikx]

3 minutes ago, Deputy-Facepain said:

I doubt they add to his shop, because I feel a lot of players will gladly bypass playing needless amounts of duviri. 

It also sets a bad precedent that will infect other modes. 

Essentially it becomes harder and harder to say "why" they can't have a store for other content.

Next thing you know, everything is vendor sold for Plat.

Example:

I absolutely hate Steel Path. I just don't find bullet sponge aimbot enemies to be fun. 

It makes already boring missions (Defense, Mobile Defense) even more boring for me. 

I'd rather spend my time doing other content, so I guess I should be able to buy Steel Path Arcanes, cosmetics, and etc off the market/Teshin for platinum.

Now, let's say DE did allow that. How does that effect Steel Path Matchmaking and the mode as a whole? 

I'm all for Pity systems (Voruna, Citrine, Qorvex, etc) but the game is meant to be played. 

I hate Steel Path but when I run out of crap to do I shrug my shoulders and start clearing nodes until I get sleepy. Usually I knock out 1 planet before I start falling asleep at my console. 

That said, having those rewards does prompt me to keep Steel Path on my "To Do" list versus ignore it and forget it exists entirely (The Conclave).

There's many who'd also say this for Eidolons, Orphix, etc.

[UnstarPrime]

It's double-edged.  The experiment wasn't just about whether people would buy Incarnons (because it's obvious that they would), but also about how the overall community feels about that being something you can pay for.  Because what nobody wants is for the game to feel like there are unreasonable grinds where the best solution to avoid a headache is to just pony up the cash.  That rubs everyone the wrong way.

For my part, I feel like earning an Incarnon is reasonable; over the course of a week if you spend an hour or two, you're guaranteed to get the Incarnon you wanted.  I think that's very reasonable.  That being the case, for the people who dislike Duviri content but want some of the rewards behind it, sure, let them.  When someone pays because they personally dislike the content, I think that's fine.

It's when the gameplay is fine but the grind feels huge that I think the pay-to-skip feels suspicious.  For example, that's how the Tennokai mods and Tome mods feel right now.  I enjoy the missions these mods come from, but the amount of time required to have an unlikely chance at getting them sucks.  And on its own that's fine; there are a lot of farms like that in Warframe.  In those cases, some people farm the mods and sell them to players who would rather do other farms.  I farm what I like farming, you farm what you like farming, and through trading everyone can get what they want.

But the bundles of Tennokai and Tome mods kill that dynamic.  The amount of time it takes to farm the platinum needed to buy a bundle containing every mod is drastically less than the amount of time it on average takes to earn these mods through play.  So if you want the mods, the most efficient way to get them is buying them from the Market.  And if you want to sell the mods to other players, the most efficient way to get them is buying them from the Market.  The farms in two game modes were on life support the instant they were released, because only players who genuinely enjoy the idea of playing these specific game modes for dozens of hours — or those who haven't done the math — will engage in the farm.

When the Market becomes the only reasonable method of acquisition regardless of player preferences, that's when there's a problem.

[Berzerkules]

7 hours ago, Aerikx said:

It also sets a bad precedent that will infect other modes. 

Essentially it becomes harder and harder to say "why" they can't have a store for other content.

Next thing you know, everything is vendor sold for Plat.

Example:

I absolutely hate Steel Path. I just don't find bullet sponge aimbot enemies to be fun. 

It makes already boring missions (Defense, Mobile Defense) even more boring for me. 

I'd rather spend my time doing other content, so I guess I should be able to buy Steel Path Arcanes, cosmetics, and etc off the market/Teshin for platinum.

Now, let's say DE did allow that. How does that effect Steel Path Matchmaking and the mode as a whole? 

I'm all for Pity systems (Voruna, Citrine, Qorvex, etc) but the game is meant to be played. 

I hate Steel Path but when I run out of crap to do I shrug my shoulders and start clearing nodes until I get sleepy. Usually I knock out 1 planet before I start falling asleep at my console. 

That said, having those rewards does prompt me to keep Steel Path on my "To Do" list versus ignore it and forget it exists entirely (The Conclave).

There's many who'd also say this for Eidolons, Orphix, etc.

Huge difference between stuff you get from SP and incarnon weapons.

You can buy SP arcanes for cheap from other players, like really cheap. You can also buy primary/secondary weapon adapters from in game market.

That leaves one armor set for operator, a few glyphs, a couple ephemera and a noggle. You can get all that stuff from running a week or 2 worth of SP incursions. That's some inconsequential trinkets and you compare those to some of the best weapon upgrades in the game that takes months to farm. 

Selling the cosmetics and trinkets from teshin's shop would have no effect on SP match making because SE=kuva. Players will farm kuva to roll riven to make plat no matter what the farm is. 

Oh yeah, you can also buy eidolon arcanes from players. Buy plat from DE and give it to players on exchange for the arcanes.

It's already a pay to not play specific things and DE has already set precedent by selling 1/7th of incarnons at Cavalero.

[Aerikx]

1 hour ago, Berzerkules said:

Huge difference between stuff you get from SP and incarnon weapons.

You can buy SP arcanes for cheap from other players, like really cheap. You can also buy primary/secondary weapon adapters from in game market.

That leaves one armor set for operator, a few glyphs, a couple ephemera and a noggle. You can get all that stuff from running a week or 2 worth of SP incursions. That's some inconsequential trinkets and you compare those to some of the best weapon upgrades in the game that takes months to farm. 

Selling the cosmetics and trinkets from teshin's shop would have no effect on SP match making because SE=kuva. Players will farm kuva to roll riven to make plat no matter what the farm is. 

Oh yeah, you can also buy eidolon arcanes from players. Buy plat from DE and give it to players on exchange for the arcanes.

It's already a pay to not play specific things and DE has already set precedent by selling 1/7th of incarnons at Cavalero.

You have completely missed the point. 

Just because players sell/trade items doesn't mean the precedent is already set. 

There is a core difference between having to engage with players who have had to run/farm the content and an NPC who outright sells the fully powered items, no content experience required.

If such an NPC existed then a surprisingly large if not majority of players WILL simply buy the item off the NPC.Which would absolutely tank the market, making farming said item to trade for Plat discouraging. Essentially the NPC has set the price and that's that.

People will ALWAYS choose the route of least resistance. And it's easier to go to an NPC than play the trade game. 

The core difference between what you wrote and what I wrote is that now DE would have made instant access to said items from day 1.  

Depending on popular such a change would be, it wouldn't surprise me is suddenly the drops become harder to get or more expensive (standing) to acquire for free since now an NPC just outright sells it. 

Just go to NPC/Market Segment and click buy. No bartering, no trade tax, no stress.

At that point, as you said, Steel Path is just Kuva. I have an itching suspicion a lot of folks would have issues with Kuva being the sole reason to run Steel Path. 

[Berzerkules]

1 hour ago, Aerikx said:

You have completely missed the point. 

Just because players sell/trade items doesn't mean the precedent is already set. 

There is a core difference between having to engage with players who have had to run/farm the content and an NPC who outright sells the fully powered items, no content experience required.

If such an NPC existed then a surprisingly large if not majority of players WILL simply buy the item off the NPC.Which would absolutely tank the market, making farming said item to trade for Plat discouraging. Essentially the NPC has set the price and that's that.

People will ALWAYS choose the route of least resistance. And it's easier to go to an NPC than play the trade game. 

The core difference between what you wrote and what I wrote is that now DE would have made instant access to said items from day 1.  

Depending on popular such a change would be, it wouldn't surprise me is suddenly the drops become harder to get or more expensive (standing) to acquire for free since now an NPC just outright sells it. 

Just go to NPC/Market Segment and click buy. No bartering, no trade tax, no stress.

At that point, as you said, Steel Path is just Kuva. I have an itching suspicion a lot of folks would have issues with Kuva being the sole reason to run Steel Path. 

Vosfor exists. You can buy SP arcanes form a vendor already. 

The evergreen items you buy with SE that aren't on a multi week rotation are kuva and relic packs. What one do you think people are spending their SE on?

Players were stacking SE in between prime releases to sell new primes right after they dropped before the price tanked. When DE implemented the weekly cap that was killed so SE=kuva. 

As for DE setting precedent for pay to not play look at every new frame release. They are not only available for sale from the moment they drop but they have multiple bundles available with all their weapons and cosmetics in the in game market as well. You can throw plat or money at almost everything as soon as it's released. Why not add incarnon weapons to that? 

 

Edited February 24 by Berzerkules

[Aerikx]

5 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

You can buy SP arcanes form a vendor already.

You can buy SP Arcanes, by sacrificing acquired arcanes (meaning you had to play the game) for a new currency which you then spend for a "Loot Box" of 3 Arcanes.

A Calavero store is essentially selling a fully upgraded and ready to go Incarnon Weapon. 

To translate that to Arcanes means...

An NPC Vendor selling individual Rank 5 Arcanes for platinum. 

Basically, "You don't have time to experience ___ content?" Just buy your power. 

And it'll never be enough. So it'll start with incarnons, move to Arcanes, then Archon Shards, so on and so on. Cause what's the justification for not having an item vendor/plat bought at that point?

[Kalvorax]

12 hours ago, Aerikx said:

A Calavero store is essentially selling a fully upgraded and ready to go Incarnon Weapon. 

then make it JUST the adapter then....we still need the weapon itself after all. If we need to get the reosurces, then fine. But im tired of not having the time, energy, or Will to WANT to do the incarnon grind twice a week (in the event i decide to ever go the pub route) for 35-40 incarnons over the course of who knows how many months.

its a PVE game...i could care less about other players whining about "pay to skip" when that is literally what the game is about for those who have other means of "playing" the game without having the time to play the game. If that was the case...Foundry wouldnt have plat to rush builds, or Helminth for subsumes.