Eclipse Update (Dev response)

[Ampathetiic]

32 minutes ago, trst said:

The options were make it function as originally intended, make it more reliable, change how it functions entirely, or something entirely different. Players chose option B in wanting it more reliable and that's exactly what we got.

Here's the quote again, since you're choosing to exclude the part they lied about:

• We can change Eclipse to work more reliably, but may need to reduce its effectiveness when used as a Helminth ability by reducing its power, duration, or other factors.
  • Eclipse is already the 2nd most popular Helminth ability, so removing its main barrier to entry (reliability) would mean a rebalance is in order. This effectiveness reduction would not affect the ability for Mirage, only when applied from the Helminth.

Go to the original thread and scroll through the feedback. The majority is asking for a tap/hold with the compromise of a nerf to the Helminth version of Eclipse. We very clearly agreed to one thing, and got something else.

Edited February 24 by Ampathetiic
bolded for emphasis

[Voltage]

24 minutes ago, Ampathetiic said:

Here's the quote again, since you're choosing to exclude the part they lied about:

• We can change Eclipse to work more reliably, but may need to reduce its effectiveness when used as a Helminth ability by reducing its power, duration, or other factors.
  • Eclipse is already the 2nd most popular Helminth ability, so removing its main barrier to entry (reliability) would mean a rebalance is in order. This effectiveness reduction would not affect the ability for Mirage, only when applied from the Helminth.

Go to the original thread and scroll through the feedback. The majority is asking for a tap/hold with the compromise of a nerf to the Helminth version of Eclipse. We very clearly agreed to one thing, and got something else.

Changing it to base damage and also reducing that effectiveness for Helminth is still technically in line with what you quoted (in the context of comparing mirage's eclipse to helminth eclipse). I guess this is what happens when a majority of players aren't educated on precedence like Chroma.

People expecting a separate final weapon damage multiplier with a simple toggle are quite naive.

The whole point is to oversaturate base damage so diminishing returns play out. It's been a major problem for years that the formula for your weapon damage has several layers of multiplication that gets wildly out of hand.

This change is healthy for Warframe going forward. God forbid you can't solo a 6x3 as well in a mode designed for teamplay, trivialize Profit-Taker, or the several other reasons players really use Eclipse for.

I'm praising this change from the perspective of an Eclipse abuser. I was one of the original people to claim Eclipse in Helminth was a mistake. The lighting rework really showcased the problem with this ability, and it had nothing to do with the trigger. 

Edited February 24 by Voltage

[KitMeHarder]

4 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Changing it to base damage and also reducing that effectiveness for Helminth is still in line with what you quoted.

Gotta love English. While technically correct, it is extraordinarily misleading.

A lot more can be said, but just don't try and say DE know they're in the right because they used lawyer-grade phrasing to create a work around, when even the part about helminth in said quote is incorrect based on yesterday's stream.

[PainTako]

27 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Changing it to base damage and also reducing that effectiveness for Helminth is still technically in line with what you quoted (in the context of comparing mirage's eclipse to helminth eclipse). I guess this is what happens when a majority of players aren't educated on precedence like Chroma.

People expecting a separate final weapon damage multiplier with a simple toggle are quite naive.

The whole point is to oversaturate base damage so diminishing returns play out. It's been a major problem for years that the formula for your weapon damage has several layers of multiplication that gets wildly out of hand.

This change is healthy for Warframe going forward. God forbid you can't solo a 6x3 as well in a mode designed for teamplay, trivialize Profit-Taker, or the several other reasons players really use Eclipse for.

I'm praising this change from the perspective of an Eclipse abuser. I was one of the original people to claim Eclipse in Helminth was a mistake. The lighting rework really showcased the problem with this ability, and it had nothing to do with the trigger. 

They stated twice they would not touch mirage in the option most players voted for. Once by omission and once explicitly. They specifically wanted to know what the community wanted, and what we voted for was to keep the ability as it but make it more reliable with a potential nerf to only helminth. Regardless of personal view, or thoughts on balance, what DE did was lie. They did not simply state "we can make it more reliable with potential changes to the ability" (Which would be misleading but still correct), it was explicitly with no nerfs to mirage. Which also by extension means no nerf to how the ability works, unless they only make it apply to when the ability is helminthed.

This is also when they presented another option to keep it working as it has been, just fix the issues with it not working correctly based on lighting. Do you think people would vote the same if they were instead told the can have it be:

The same as it is, just fix the issues

Make it a toggle, but change the final damage mult into a base damage mult. With potential value changes.

Rework the ability entirely

This is an even bigger nerf to Mirage when you consider she can use eclipse augment so her 4 mirrors (2 if shooting a gun) also gain eclipse's damage mult.

Edited February 24 by PainTako

[Numerounius]

Ugh, I see we are doing thread merging for this. FUN!

We really need some better forum tools, there is no way of telling that this is now the megathread with tons of comments losing all meaning since they are replying to a now not top-level comment or that moderations such as @Letter13 is on thread merging duty that we don't know about.

Eclipse is still going to be a strong ability even after its update and I suspect that there will some additional stuff once we get the patch notes, that may or may not be favorable. It isn't being nerfed into the ground, there are still plenty of abilities there that needs to be lifted up from there. And judging by the way they were talking about it on the devstream it sounds like it was not as fleshed out as it would seem since it is also missing from the devstream recap page as well.

[Dax-Kriegor]

4 hours ago, Redrigoth said:

He said it would need to be nerfed since it will be more consistent. That means instead of having 200% power sometimes and 95% reduction sometimes, you could have something like 130% power always or 90% reduction always, one or the other as you toggle between them. People agreed to a toggle with reduced value not a whole change to the power buff that makes it into a Hornet Strike mod.

Power buff should be 130% for mirage and 75% for helminth both multiplicative
Defense buff should be 80% for mirage and 50% affected by strength mod for helminth so non-mirage need more strength investment.
Toggle between one or the other. Recasting overwrites the old buff.

Ah. See, I thought that he said it would need to be nerfed to compensate for being more consistent, but people were telling me I was wrong about that.. that was why I thought this change was going to happen, since moving where the calculations for the buff takes place would be a faster and simpler way to rebalance it than modifying the values in the the calculation.

And the reason toggle was suggested was because fixing how it behaves in lighting was going to be a longer and more complicated fix than anticipated.. either way, it looks like a couple threads got merged while I was at work?

I already left this thread behind last night when I got told shut up and go away by a couple people.. one of them was convinced that a LR4 w the conclave community glyph is somehow less than 2 months old, even though I've been playig more than a year longer than that person, so it seemed to me that my feedback was quite unwelcome here..

All that said, I do have a mental disability and easily misunderstand some simple things at times, so when I got told I was wrong about what was said I just accepted it as my mistake and did t have time to look into it

[Raikh]

Don't think the numerical ramifications are the largest concern for now. But that these changes are now coming based on a community vote which was held under the assumption that Mirage's Eclipse would go unchanged besides becoming a toggle. And now its being changed, not only nerfed, but mechanically changed, which is well beyond what was originally on the table.

So thats a bit of a cheap shot.

Balance can be sorted out, not that the game has any balance worth talking about to begin with. If they don't want these multiplicative Buffs in the game, fine, if they felt like they needed to nerf Eclipse, fine. But communicate that properly and don't make these changes around the back after stating these kind of changes won't happen.

[Voltage]

18 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Gotta love English. While technically correct, it is extraordinarily misleading.

A lot more can be said, but just don't try and say DE know they're in the right because they used lawyer-grade phrasing to create a work around, when even the part about helminth in said quote is incorrect based on yesterday's stream.

They do it all the time, for stuff most people forget about. They changed the description for GunCO to say "direct" damage instead of fixing it to work with AoE. They use this ambiguous language for sold exclusives, so that in the case they feel like re-releasing something, they don't get into hot water. It's all over the game and several updates in the past. I don't like it either, but it has to be said as it's important to understand so you can see this coming next time, because there always is one.

10 minutes ago, PainTako said:

They stated twice they would not touch mirage in the option most players voted for. Once by omission and once explicitly. They specifically wanted to know what the community wanted, and what we voted for was to keep the ability as it but make it more reliable with a potential nerf to only helminth. Regardless of personal view, or thoughts on balance, what DE did was lie. They did not simply state "we can make it more reliable with potential changes to the ability" (Which would be misleading but still correct), it was explicitly with no nerfs to mirage. Which also by extension means no nerf to how the ability works, unless they only make it apply to when the ability is helminthed.

I won't disagree with you. It's ambiguous and woefully dishonest messaging, but you think this is my first time? This has happened with Regal Aya, the Heirloom Collection, Permanent Nightwave Acts, Kuva Hek unable to use Scattered Justice, Trinity's Well of Life nerf recently, and several more things in the past. If you take their word at face value and make assumptions such as "Which also by extension means no nerf to how the ability works", that's entirely on you. Hopefully everyone involved in discourse with developer decisions get the hint that this is a frequent occurrence. 

In the end, no matter whether you feel this is positive or negative for the game, it will be swept under the rug in a few weeks and forgotten, just like what happened to Chroma.

[Lord_Drod]

How annoying, this thread got merged together? and I lost my post.  Yes, I would totally not want the ability messed with if the choice is to have it reduced to a serration buff.  So let's not put this on the community.  I did not vote for this and never would.  Also, I don't know who is "abusing" this ability in helminth, but its not more powerful than roar or even more useful.  This does not mean I prefer Roar on my Mirage.  I'm simply acknowledging Roar has more applications of use since it also buffs abilities.  Let's just change Roar to base damage as well and make all the buffs suck and be identical.

DR is not useful unless you are taking damage, which can be very hard to do with Mirage unless you're standing there smashing away at some tank with damage attenuation, with a fail state solo, and only a hollow vein eximus to pick you up.  I'm never going to be choosing the DR.

And why can't this just be adjusted for helminth?  It already was nerfed for helminth.  I have not subsumed this on a single frame.  Just because people are using it does not mean it is OP.  Many of the helminth abilities are not very useful.  This is fast casting and cheap, but I'm sure xaku is just as good in most spots.  Of course, even though I have a roar and xaku loadout on her, they aren't my top because usually trading buffs isn't worth losing a helminth slot.

I also don't think a toggle is a good solution to her identity.  If you can't make it work as designed/intended with the lightning, then nothing should be done.  That's her identity.  Thinking constant 95% DR on Mirage is OP for netracell missions or the like is hilarious.  Simply not being host is DR, but that's perfectly fine right?

[KitMeHarder]

5 minutes ago, Voltage said:

If you take their word at face value [...]

In the end, no matter whether you feel this is positive or negative for the game, it will be swept under the rug in a few weeks and forgotten

But we can hold them accountable, just like we did with Regal Aya. That's the difference, just because it happens doesn't mean it's valid.

So I don't get the whole discouraging people from from speaking out stance. Maybe you actually like the change this time, but speaking out does occasionally work. Regal Aya, looting abilities, mod drop boosters, etc...

[PainTako]

8 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I won't disagree with you. It's ambiguous and woefully dishonest messaging, but you think this is my first time? This has happened with Regal Aya, the Heirloom Collection, Permanent Nightwave Acts, Kuva Hek unable to use Scattered Justice, Trinity's Well of Life nerf recently, and several more things in the past. If you take their word at face value and make assumptions such as "Which also by extension means no nerf to how the ability works", that's entirely on you. Hopefully everyone involved in discourse with developer decisions get the hint that this is a frequent occurrence. 

In the end, no matter whether you feel this is positive or negative for the game, it will be swept under the rug in a few weeks and forgotten, just like what happened to Chroma.

And even though this has happened several times, it's disappointing each time. I assumed they would nerf Eclipse. I'm surprised that they even buffed the value of it to 350% after it now applies to base damage. I'm also assuming the "improvements" to netracells will be laughable. That doesn't mean we shouldn't voice our grievances nor does it mean we should simply accept it as is. Although I think we both know how addicted to this game some people can be and choose not to quit. That, or some simply don't care.

[Voltage]

13 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

But we can hold them accountable, just like we did with Regal Aya. That's the difference, just because it happens doesn't mean it's valid.

So I don't get the whole discouraging people from from speaking out stance. Maybe you actually like the change this time, but speaking out does occasionally work. Regal Aya, looting abilities, mod drop boosters, etc...

I understand you want to hold them accountable for misleading players, but I appreciate them showcasing a backbone to make a hard decision that benefits the game long-term. I guess we're just on the opposite ends of the receiving end of this change.

13 minutes ago, PainTako said:

And even though this has happened several times, it's disappointing each time. I assumed they would nerf Eclipse. I'm surprised that they even buffed the value of it to 350% after it now applies to base damage. I'm also assuming the "improvements" to netracells will be laughable. That doesn't mean we shouldn't voice our grievances nor does it mean we should simply accept it as is. Although I think we both know how addicted to this game some people can be and choose not to quit. That, or some simply don't care.

Historically, this is how most devstream/dev workshop changes go over. The information they give us is their predetermined commitment. Eclipse has gone unchanged far too long. It should have been changed when Vex Armor was, but we're here now, and it's changing now. That's just the way the cookie crumbles for a live service game.

I just want to make clear as well that I am not trying to shut down players "speaking up", just trying to get them to wake up. Welcome to the "Temporary removal of Trials" club, founded February 7th, 2018.

Edited February 24 by Voltage

[trst]

1 hour ago, Ampathetiic said:

Here's the quote again, since you're choosing to exclude the part they lied about:

• We can change Eclipse to work more reliably, but may need to reduce its effectiveness when used as a Helminth ability by reducing its power, duration, or other factors.
  • Eclipse is already the 2nd most popular Helminth ability, so removing its main barrier to entry (reliability) would mean a rebalance is in order. This effectiveness reduction would not affect the ability for Mirage, only when applied from the Helminth.

Go to the original thread and scroll through the feedback. The majority is asking for a tap/hold with the compromise of a nerf to the Helminth version of Eclipse. We very clearly agreed to one thing, and got something else.

And again they specified that these were their current ideations for Eclipse. Ideation meaning: "the formation of ideas or concepts".

These were not final versions of what they would add but concepts put forward of what approaches they could take. Players wanted them to take the approach of making it consistent and that concept lead into the version we're getting. Yes it's not the exact version of that concept they first outlined there but by having called it an ideation in the first place means there was no implicit promise of other changes not happening. Thus there was no lie.

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

22 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I understand you want to hold them accountable for misleading players, but I appreciate them showcasing a backbone to make a hard decision that benefits the game long-term. I guess we're just on the opposite ends of the receiving end of this change.

Historically, this is how most devstream/dev workshop changes go over. The information they give us is their predetermined commitment. Eclipse has gone unchanged far too long. It should have been changed when Vex Armor was, but we're here now, and it's changing now. That's just the way the cookie crumbles for a live service game.

I just want to make clear as well that I am not trying to shut down players "speaking up", just trying to get them to wake up. Welcome to the "Temporary removal of Trials" club, founded February 7th, 2018.

Being a live service game doesn’t really make any difference, this happens with pretty much any game on the market atm, even if not a full live service.

Edited February 24 by (PSN)FrDiabloFr

[beiond_]

Whatever the math wizes in the forum say, i believe that first and foremost we were lied to, whether intentionally or not doesn't matter right now, nor that DE have shown a pattern with these kinds of changes.
Some might say that it's no use in voicing you're concerns but this forum (other than voting with our wallets, and let's be honest none of you or including myself are gonna missout on wisp prime booty lol) is the only real place to give DE feedback, we can all agree that whether this change is good or bad we were not informed before voting or after the fact, DE can't deny this because they literally caught themselves in 4k with the posts and devsteams.

You can discuss all you want but this is immoral, dishonest and frankly speaking the reason some key members (the Trainman himself and Shy) and players left this game and community, it's a slimy change and i hope the message reaches them that this is absolutely not what we wanted and they revert the change, and if the hundreds of posts don't change their minds, it might be time to vote with your wallet, simple as that.

[Lord_Drod]

12 minutes ago, trst said:

And again they specified that these were their current ideations for Eclipse. Ideation meaning: "the formation of ideas or concepts".

These were not final versions of what they would add but concepts put forward of what approaches they could take. Players wanted them to take the approach of making it consistent and that concept lead into the version we're getting. Yes it's not the exact version of that concept they first outlined there but by having called it an ideation in the first place means there was no implicit promise of other changes not happening. Thus there was no lie.

I didn't see the original thread, but based on what you posted, I read that as they aren't going to mechanically change how eclipse works on Mirage, however this is exactly what they have done.  It is a completely different ability now and they are also lying by hiding behind helminth.  The real reason is they don't want Mirage to have 95% DR on all the time in sanctum tileset, which is silly anyway.  I would gladly have that removed 100% and many frames are tankier and have better DR.

[PainTako]

44 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I just want to make clear as well that I am not trying to shut down players "speaking up", just trying to get them to wake up. Welcome to the "Temporary removal of Trials" club, founded February 7th, 2018.

Except trials back then died out with a whimper, no one cared. None except the what, 10% of the community we were back then? The typical player still thought raids were an incredibly toxic environment from select few horror stories from a few outliers in recruit chat. Or surmised that from recruit chat requirements. Hell most didn't even know they were a thing, why care if it gets removed?

Even though we both know there was an entire discord server dedicated to helping people learn and do raids with a strict rule that there would be no experience requirement, and basically no gear requirement aside from "You have to mod your stuff". They killed raids because they didn't want to upkeep them anymore. Regardless of what we want to believe, they did break all the time. Just look at the Meatball bug in JV. How earth rework made LoR entirely broken for stage 1, and somehow all the pads in tram phase 2 were gone. Or when batteries randomly starting charging at a much faster speed. Or what about the random rock that blocked the entire vay hek arena entrance. Or the...

I understand what you mean though, I just wish DE would actually care about balance and not just once every few years after consistently adding powercreep. Shards, weapon arcanes, galvanized mods, helminth, arcanes that add stats, incarnon weapons, and so on. It just continues to show they really don't care until things get too high in usage, which is often showing what the core problem is.

Nourish is so good because energy is still an issue, while energize fixes this not everyone wants to buy/farm 21 energizes. And DE has taken 6 years to help with energize (Hydrolyst release date to arcane dissolution). While powercreep has made Eidolons easier, their bugs are still numerous. And let's not forget the Plague Star hotfix that helped the event bounties at night be easier by reducing all natural spawns like Voms, making it more annoying to do eidolons without spawn manipulation. All the way back in 2017. AoE was meta because Warframe is a horde shooter and single target weapons will never be good unless the AoE options do no damage, or can't be used. Unless you have a way to make enemies chain damage such as pulling in enemies for punch through, collective curse, or chaining. Wonder why all the incarnon weapons have chaining, AoE, or dummy thicc projectiles that pierce entities. It makes their actual balance decisions even more annoying since they hardly care until one specific thing is "too used".

But I'm preaching to the choir at this point. Or will be called a hater. So w/e.

Edited February 24 by PainTako

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

2 hours ago, PainTako said:

Except trials back then died out with a whimper, no one cared. None except the what, 10% of the community we were back then? The typical player still thought raids were an incredibly toxic environment from select few horror stories from a few outliers in recruit chat. Or surmised that from recruit chat requirements. Hell most didn't even know they were a thing, why care if it gets removed?

Even though we both know there was an entire discord server dedicated to helping people learn and do raids with a strict rule that there would be no experience requirement, and basically no gear requirement aside from "You have to mod your stuff". They killed raids because they didn't want to upkeep them anymore. Regardless of what we want to believe, they did break all the time. Just look at the Meatball bug in JV. How earth rework made LoR entirely broken for stage 1, and somehow all the pads in tram phase 2 were gone. Or when batteries randomly starting charging at a much faster speed. Or what about the random rock that blocked the entire vay hek arena entrance. Or the...

I understand what you mean though, I just wish DE would actually care about balance and not just once every few years after consistently adding powercreep. Shards, weapon arcanes, galvanized mods, helminth, arcanes that add stats, incarnon weapons, and so on. It just continues to show they really don't care until things get too high in usage, which is often showing what the core problem is.

Nourish is so good because energy is still an issue, while energize fixes this not everyone wants to buy/farm 21 energizes. And DE has taken 6 years to help with energize (Hydrolyst release date to arcane dissolution). While powercreep has made Eidolons easier, their bugs are still numerous. And let's not forget the Plague Star hotfix that helped the event bounties at night be easier by reducing all natural spawns like Voms, making it more annoying to do eidolons without spawn manipulation. All the way back in 2017. AoE was meta because Warframe is a horde shooter and single target weapons will never be good unless the AoE options do no damage, or can't be used. Unless you have a way to make enemies chain damage such as pulling in enemies for punch through, collective curse, or chaining. Wonder why all the incarnon weapons have chaining, AoE, or dummy thicc projectiles that pierce entities. It makes their actual balance decisions even more annoying since they hardly care until one specific thing is "too used".

But I'm preaching to the choir at this point. Or will be called a hater. So w/e.

The opposite imo, your response is probably one of the best i’ve seen on this topic, well thought out, good points.

Edited February 25 by (PSN)FrDiabloFr

[Ampathetiic]

1 hour ago, trst said:

And again they specified that these were their current ideations for Eclipse. Ideation meaning: "the formation of ideas or concepts".

It is truly amazing how hard we will hinge on a single word while completely dismissing the entire part about the reductions only applying to Helminth Eclipse, which again, is what the community was asking for.

Do you not find it irritating that the language is apparently so unclear as to mislead this many people into believing DE would actually implement their feedback in the way that was seemingly proposed? At what point is it their responsibility to communicate their message better? Why do their messages need to get off on technicality, rather than just being articulated simply?

As it stands, they misled people by framing their ideas as a set of options that would be implemented in response to community feedback. I'm willing to be charitable and say that it wasn't intentional and malicious; there could have been some miscommunication between teams about what they were actually planning to. However, that thread failed to portray what they would implement, and so people should make a fuss about it so DE does better in the future.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Ampathetiic said:

However, that thread failed to portray what they would implement, and so people should make a fuss about it so DE does better in the future.

This.

Although I don't even care so much about them changing course, depending on the reasoning. It's poor setting of expectations, but forgivable afaic.   

What is bad community management is to do so without  acknowledgement and some kind of explanation.  Hopefully DE realizes that and it's coming. 

Edited February 25 by Tiltskillet

[Dax-Kriegor]

8 hours ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

They changed the ability precisely because of the fact the light/dark mechanic was either inconsistent or flat out didn't work with the new lighting system. What makes you think they'll add it back in as an augment?

Absolutely correct. The main options we were given were toggle as a way to sidestep the extra work, or wait longer to have it fixed. Since the community picked quick easy fix,they're not still going to invest the time and effort into making it work how it was originally intended now

[Redrigoth]

5 hours ago, Dax-Kriegor said:

Ah. See, I thought that he said it would need to be nerfed to compensate for being more consistent, but people were telling me I was wrong about that.. that was why I thought this change was going to happen, since moving where the calculations for the buff takes place would be a faster and simpler way to rebalance it than modifying the values in the the calculation.

And the reason toggle was suggested was because fixing how it behaves in lighting was going to be a longer and more complicated fix than anticipated.. either way, it looks like a couple threads got merged while I was at work?

I already left this thread behind last night when I got told shut up and go away by a couple people.. one of them was convinced that a LR4 w the conclave community glyph is somehow less than 2 months old, even though I've been playig more than a year longer than that person, so it seemed to me that my feedback was quite unwelcome here..

All that said, I do have a mental disability and easily misunderstand some simple things at times, so when I got told I was wrong about what was said I just accepted it as my mistake and did t have time to look into it

Reducing the % is an easy way to balance it, especially since they can have different % for mirage and helminth.

Some weirdos are determined to argue against the complaint that changing the power buff to be additive is bad for the sake of arguing.

And then you have the people who can't seem to read and keep talking about % and ignoring the core of the issue which is the fact the buff was made additive (this gives it 40-80% reduced effectiveness as your ability strength and modded base damage increases btw so it is a huge deal. 100% multiplicative is better than 230% additive as the formula graph moves forward)

[Lord_Drod]

It just seems like a lazy fix for the lighting issue where DE is strangely worried about 95% DR and hiding behind helminth users.  I am not sure why you'd pick this over roar, strip, nourish, xaku, molt etc... It's capped at 75% DR anyway, and has reduced damage, so you need high strength for the damage and its inconsistent compared to other buffs.  Useful abilities that are cheap and fast casting that provide some DR are pretty uncommon, but it is almost never the best choice on anyone, except Mirage.

I only mod for 199% STR usually anyway, so a reduced % from 3.98x would be what? 1.5x? 2x?  Who really cares at that point?  We're balancing around high end abusers that are going for 400%+ str and can barely move around because they have no movement mods and are overkilling 20x each enemy(or are modding correctly for niche use high target missions), and the newbies that are putting this on their frames when its just a decent jack of all trades.  DE should recognize why its been used and at least attempt to explain that to us instead of saying they can only analyze like robots and read percentages.  The ability should not be balanced around either group of people.  There's a ton of bad abilities in the helminth system. 

Has there been some helminth usage released based on mastery rank?  Maybe it has been explained somewhere, but if I have 6 loadouts with xaku, roar, and eclipse all on one, are they able to see which is getting used over the other?  It's just total subsumptions?  Is it based on actual subsumed abilities usage % in mission?  Either way, its not the proper way to balance and never has been.

I do think it probably won't be a big deal just because its a consistent buff vs inconsistencies, but again, thats who Mirage is.  She's the jester and there should be some erratic behavior to her ability or at least it makes sense how it worked initially.  And it's unfortunate that some people had to call attention to this (even more sad coming from unworthy helminth users), like damage was needed for the sanctum tileset, which is still just an island and has almost no reason to play a long mission.  The tileset is incredible though everything else sounds pretty amazing.

[Redrigoth]

9 hours ago, Politically_Correct_Name said:

Sure nerf it would be perfectly acceptable however completely gutting it to where it wont even be used is not something majority of players would ever agree to.  This ability now is vex armor light, would you call this a nerf?  Its an annihilation and will make it completely a waste of helminth.  Im stunned anyone is actually defending this change, im guessing majority of you are just people whom like to argue for the sake of arguing because you have nothing better to do today.  

It might appear that way because 200 is smaller than 350 but thats not how math works in gamin damage calculations, especially when you consider theres already many forms of additive damage, this is a massive nerf, no where close to break even.

Eclipse's primary use will be as a Damage Reduction source from helminth after this change cuz what fool would bother toggling off 90% damage reduction in favor of a Hornet Strike buff? It is supposed to be a mode swap between Tanky and Glass-cannon. Instead they want to make it Tanky vs Not-tanky-but-with-an-extra-tickle as if that is a choice.

 

[Waeleto]

7 hours ago, trst said:

And again they specified that these were their current ideations for Eclipse. Ideation meaning: "the formation of ideas or concepts".

These were not final versions of what they would add but concepts put forward of what approaches they could take. Players wanted them to take the approach of making it consistent and that concept lead into the version we're getting. Yes it's not the exact version of that concept they first outlined there but by having called it an ideation in the first place means there was no implicit promise of other changes not happening. Thus there was no lie.

What are you defending here exactly ? I love DE and the team behind warframe but this is NOT IT they literally told us they would do something and did the exact opposite and we HAVE to have a discussion about it this isn't a small thing this is huge and if it happened now and we didn't TALK ABOUT IT it can happen later with something bigger