So umm. Why does nearly every Aura mod still suck?

[Xzorn]

Before. It was an issue with Armor and CP generally giving the best increase with Growing Power / Steel Charge getting some use.

Now with Armor changes and belligerent weapon arcanes that grant nearly half of Chroma's damage buff it's esp slim pickings. Now you actually can't make auras like rifle/pistol amp good because arcanes are giving 400-480% additive damage. CP no longer matters because, math. So we're at Brief Respite to gimmick shield gating and Growing Power.

You guys even killed Holster Speed. What could have possible prompted that? It's just a shame. This is such an easy fix. In most cases just numerical.

• Rifle/Pistol/Shotgun Amp - Multiplicative with different values because there isn't much choice anymore.
• Enemy Radar/Loot Detector - Some value in open world. Sorta.
• Rejuvenation/Energy Siphon - Double values.
• Holster Amp - Revert.
• Dead Eye - Adds to weak point multiplier.
• EMP Aura - Rework.
• Toxic Resistance - Add 10%.
• Sprint Boost - Add 10%.
• Physique - Rework.
• CP - Emerald Shard kinda took this but it would be nice to get away from Heat.

 

You get the idea.

[Circle_of_Psi]

Hell, reason why I don't use half of these Aura is due to how SC gives more Mod Cap, if the other Amps did the same thing, I'd porb start using em

[CosoMalvadoNG]

Aura mods are designed to be all squad mods. I mean, they are designed to be mods that you match with your squad, people just don't use them as such normally.

Edited March 23 by CosoMalvadoNG

[Zakkhar]

Not every aura can be great. Some of the are very old and have not been updated Some are a noob-trap and i can only assume that is deliberate.

38 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Rifle/Pistol/Shotgun Amp - Multiplicative with different values because there isn't much choice anymore.

Multiplicative buffs are too powerful. It is basically a Roar. DE is nerfing Roar atm, if I remember correctly. Would have to be very low values like 5% max.

40 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Enemy Radar/Loot Detector - Some value in open world. Sorta.

They had and have way more value than that.

41 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Rejuvenation/Energy Siphon - Double values.

Rej is fine if you run it on shield gating frame with base HP and some kind of dmg reduction. Energy Siphon is a bit outdated, I agree, but I still run it on multiple frames.

44 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Holster Amp - Revert.

Nope.

44 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Dead Eye - Adds to weak point multiplier.

Makes it pretty useless.

45 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Toxic Resistance - Add 10%.

Nobody is using that so doubt it wii change anything.

46 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Sprint Boost - Add 10%.

So 25% out of 15? People have been complaing about Volts giving them too much speed, how do you think they will feel about your idea? Btw Auras stack and Coaction Drift exist.

48 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Physique - Rework.

Noobtrap. Intentional.

 

[Circle_of_Psi]

16 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

DE is nerfing Roar atm, if I remember correctly.

No, DE are nerfing Eclipse to be on par with Roar, I don't think they are nerfing Roar itself

[sunderthefirmament]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

You get the idea.

I came here to be grouchy and say something along the lines of "we don't need more power creep," but I thought about it, and I think you might have a point.  I make use of very, very few aura mods:

• Brief Respite
• Corrosive Projection
• Growing Power
• Steel Charge
• Combat Discipline
• Energy Siphon*.  

 

I wouldn't be opposed to some changes to the underused aura mods so they actually seem remotely tempting to use.

 

 

 

*_{I'm aware that people regard it as terrible, but it makes sense in my Mag build.}

[KitMeHarder]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

Now you actually can't make auras like rifle/pistol amp good because arcanes

They were trash long before gun arcanes.

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

CP no longer matters because, math.

It actually matters a lot because of math.

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

You guys even killed Holster Speed. What could have possible prompted that?

Holster Amp - Revert.

Why should this be something we need to mod for in a game like WF? It should be baked-in, just like DE made it. Why the hell would I want it reverted?

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

CP - Emerald Shard kinda took this

Not in the slightest. Unless your frame has built-in synergy with emerald shards or you're a level cap runner, shards have done nothing to diminish how useful CP is.

[Xzorn]

43 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Multiplicative buffs are too powerful. It is basically a Roar. DE is nerfing Roar atm, if I remember correctly. Would have to be very low values like 5% max.

 

5% would be more. They've left no real alternative with weapon arcanes giving massive amounts more. Using Hornet Strike and Cascadia Flare gives you up to +700%. Rifle Amp at 27% is a 3.8% increase in damage. A group would suffer further diminishing increase. At least a group of 4 would have +20%.

Don't get the hate on Holster Amp.
I used it in the past and it was useful. Not just gun to gun but gun to melee. They might have made gun to melee combo more fluid but the increased holster speed still made a difference when using Quick Attack which is essentially the same thing. Maybe they could go with reload speed or something.

How is increasing weak point damage for precision weapons like Snipers useless? Outside typical problems with Snipers/Bows in this game.

Toxic being 25% just allows a premade group to actually be 100% resistant. Rare and unlikely but gives it an actual purpose.
Noob trap is a terrible summary of why a mod is bad. I'm aware there's a lot of useless mods. They don't have to be auras though.

[Xzorn]

18 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

It actually matters a lot because of math.

 

A single Tau Emerald +3 with Heat proc drops enemy armor to 1%. CP x1 will drop it to 0.8%.

This is why Emerald kinda just took the place for any use case you might have for CP. I use a single Tau as an example because it's both good and bad to fully strip armor if you're using Corrosive. You will lose damage against Ferrite and gain against Alloy. Depending on the IPS ~+30-40% total damage if you don't fully strip Ferrite thanks to damage bonus double dips. Since Corrosive has no bonus on Alloy you will gain about the same as you'd lose to Ferrite.

What I'd like to see is Heat Armor reduction moved to Puncture and Puncture status moved to Impact leaving CP as a choice of not having to use Heat.

[Zakkhar]

35 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Don't get the hate on Holster Amp.
I used it in the past and it was useful. Not just gun to gun but gun to melee. They might have made gun to melee combo more fluid but the increased holster speed still made a difference when using Quick Attack which is essentially the same thing. Maybe they could go with reload speed or something.

I have been using it gun (primer) to melee all the time. It is good as is.

35 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Using Hornet Strike and Cascadia Flare gives you up to +700%.

Why would you run both? If your %dmg goes up to 700 and there is not riven (with additional stats) involved, you put too many eggs into the %damage basket.

Edited March 23 by Zakkhar

[Rawbeard]

2 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Hell, reason why I don't use half of these Aura is due to how SC gives more Mod Cap, if the other Amps did the same thing, I'd porb start using em

there is a second one that does that... but I keep forgetting which one it is. I vaguely remember it didn't suck at least. that's nice. 

[quxier]

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Energy Siphon - Double values.

0.6 x 2 = 1.2. So during 1 minute and 23 seconds you can cast 1x 3rd/4th ability, 2x 2nd and 4x 1st. Or 1st ability in 20 second. That's not worth the slot.

3 hours ago, Xzorn said:

•  
• Sprint Boost - Add 10%.

I would even put it same as Rush (45%).

 

2 hours ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

Aura mods are designed to be all squad mods. I mean, they are designed to be mods that you match with your squad, people just don't use them as such normally.

Yeah, that's obvious. It's not like you go into mission X and expect people to equip Y aura. I'm not sure how it was when aura were introduced bu now it would be silly to expect same aura, maybe even aura forma just for silly 2.4 energy/second when full squad equip it.

2 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Multiplicative buffs are too powerful. It is basically a Roar. DE is nerfing Roar atm, if I remember correctly. Would have to be very low values like 5% max.

They are changing Mirage's buff to have similar values as Roar (but works only on weapons).

2 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Not every aura can be great. Some of the are very old and have not been updated Some are a noob-trap and i can only assume that is deliberate.

Not everything have to be great but it should be usable. I hate the idea of "noob trap".

2 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

3 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Enemy Radar/Loot Detector - Some value in open world. Sorta.

They had and have way more value than that.

+1

Is there enemy/loot radar without mod? They put innate vacuum but I think enemy/loot radar were not included.

2 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

3 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Sprint Boost - Add 10%.

So 25% out of 15? People have been complaing about Volts giving them too much speed, how do you think they will feel about your idea? Btw Auras stack and Coaction Drift exist.

25% isn't big imho.

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

3 hours ago, Xzorn said:

CP - Emerald Shard kinda took this

Not in the slightest. Unless your frame has built-in synergy with emerald shards or you're a level cap runner, shards have done nothing to diminish how useful CP is.

You just need corrosive status for Emerald shard.

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

It actually matters a lot because of math.

 

A single Tau Emerald +3 with Heat proc drops enemy armor to 1%. CP x1 will drop it to 0.8%.

This is why Emerald kinda just took the place for any use case you might have for CP. I use a single Tau as an example because it's both good and bad to fully strip armor if you're using Corrosive. You will lose damage against Ferrite and gain against Alloy. Depending on the IPS ~+30-40% total damage if you don't fully strip Ferrite thanks to damage bonus double dips. Since Corrosive has no bonus on Alloy you will gain about the same as you'd lose to Ferrite.

If you are not using corrosive then Corrosive projection make sense. For example Styanax armor strip at 200% strength. With Corrosive projection it needs, afair, only 164% strength.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 20 minutos, quxier dijo:

Yeah, that's obvious. It's not like you go into mission X and expect people to equip Y aura.

I'm talking about when we didn't have an operator, schools and there weren't as many useful auras as there are now. 

For me the aura mods are better to have mild effects and not too good, in the end the auras already give you MOD CAPACITY and the extra buff should be fine as long as it has some type of synergy, even if it is slight poor.

The fact is that the auras are not well balanced. There are very useful auras, some mediocre and others directly useless. People use the most useful ones and leave the rest aside. But I believe that everything should have its progression, something that does not happen and to which the players strongly oppose and then want everything to be useful or directly broken without a price.

[taiiat]

many of them could certainly work a little different to ensure they always provide some markable difference. and Auras are a "special" Slot anyways, so i think it's fine for Auras to work in out of the ordinary/less seen ways in order to always keep them appealing.
IMO atleast Auras should be one of the most interesting Mod Slots, rather than the opposite. RE: this does not mean big Stats, this means providing something that can maintain its use largely irregardless of your other Stats.

4 hours ago, Xzorn said:

You guys even killed Holster Speed.

i mean, i was indifferent to it happening, but i'm not going to say that instant Holster isn't pretty nice and opens up more playstyle choices, even if it also did generally provide a significant increase to our Stats.

and anyways, here's a thought. Holster Amp could give like... 25, 30% Multishot?

 

3 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Makes it pretty useless.

in what way does that make Dead Eye useless. that instantly makes it a much stronger buff than any +Damage thing could ever hope to offer you, against almost all Enemies in the game.
that's just literally better. and more unique too, anyways. 

Edited March 23 by taiiat

[quxier]

1 hour ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

eah, that's obvious. It's not like you go into mission X and expect people to equip Y aura.

I'm talking about when we didn't have an operator, schools and there weren't as many useful auras as there are now. 

+1

1 hour ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

For me the aura mods are better to have mild effects and not too good, in the end the auras already give you MOD CAPACITY and the extra buff should be fine as long as it has some type of synergy, even if it is slight poor.

The fact is that the auras are not well balanced. There are very useful auras, some mediocre and others directly useless. People use the most useful ones and leave the rest aside. But I believe that everything should have its progression, something that does not happen and to which the players strongly oppose and then want everything to be useful or directly broken without a price.

I think aura mods, or mods in general, should be good. When I mod something I want to change its behavior (how it's played). Sadly in order to change something you need to use sometimes more than 1 mod slots. Sometimes some even on different gear. So it's sometimes hard to make frame good AND fun. For example Aerodynamic (+6s aimglide) is (almost?) useless without gravity mod.

ps. Sure, low level doesn't need a lot of 'power'. But higher level require it.

[Xzorn]

2 hours ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

The fact is that the auras are not well balanced. There are very useful auras, some mediocre and others directly useless. People use the most useful ones and leave the rest aside. But I believe that everything should have its progression, something that does not happen and to which the players strongly oppose and then want everything to be useful or directly broken without a price.

 

This was why I more or less just said double Rejuv and Energy Siphon. Even though they made a newbie Aura. I know they're primary use is going to be for players who haven't done Second Dream yet and/or haven't fill out Focus or Drifter Arcanes. When you can just spam in and out of Drifter mode. Slight regen obviously loses value.

It's just at their current rates. I feel it's misleading in a way for new players. After all, I can recover 300 HP every 1 second using Elevate.

 

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

i mean, i was indifferent to it happening, but i'm not going to say that instant Holster isn't pretty nice and opens up more playstyle choices, even if it also did generally provide a significant increase to our Stats.

and anyways, here's a thought. Holster Amp could give like... 25, 30% Multishot?

 

I don't get what prompted the change. I feel like very few people used that aura. Even I only used it under special long run situations.

I do agree that auras should not be universally good and more tuned to special situations or out the box loadouts.
That was the main issue with CP after all. Auras like Combat Discipline are more interesting to me.

[taiiat]

48 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I don't get what prompted the change. I feel like very few people used that aura. Even I only used it under special long run situations.

I do agree that auras should not be universally good and more tuned to special situations or out the box loadouts.
That was the main issue with CP after all. Auras like Combat Discipline are more interesting to me.

People asking them to do something about Holstering for Years, we'd expect.
either way we got it and so either way Holster Speed is no longer a thing.

it's fine, it can provide something else that's useful that's related to Holstering. much like how Vigorous Swap was very slightly adjusted.
but i'll maintain that since it's in the Aura Slot, the effect should be more interesting than just a bit of bonus Stat, when possible.

 

as you mention, Combat Discipline is a pretty cool Aura. no matter what your Loadout is, it offers something different and potentially useful. but not always useful, as things generally should be. 

• Brief Respite is also cool, and was still cool before Shield Gating was introduced.
• Growing Power is decent if a bit easy to activate (though it's a fast paced game, i'm not asking for Auras that we have trouble actually using).
• Health/Energy Regen is a bit out of the ordinary still so i think they qualify for now.
• Scavengers are a huge buff and a unique thing, so they have their place. especially since Mutation still works how it is rather than being 'fixed' so that you can actually switch away from a Weapon and still pick up Ammo for it.
• Aerodynamic is quite appropriate.
• Mecha Empowered is kind've not even really an Aura, but it's fine i guess.
• Enemy/Loot Radar fits well.
• Melee Guidance, Power Donation, and such are an oddity but having Auras that impair yourself to benefit your Allies is an interesting opportunity.
  that Power Donation can even sometimes be a buff for Nova is perfectly fine by me - that's an interesting result.
• Swift Momentum fits well.

the ones that are "just some Stats" can look to those to be more interesting. a bit conditional, and offering something that you normally either don't have at all or don't have much of, so that what it does is always capable of being useful.

[KitMeHarder]

On 2024-03-23 at 4:34 PM, Xzorn said:

A single Tau Emerald +3 with Heat proc drops enemy armor to 1%. CP x1 will drop it to 0.8%.

This is why Emerald kinda just took the place for any use case you might have for CP.

But rarely is it efficient to (completely) armor strip enemies with corrosive procs... until they get into the quadruple digits (not to mention how few weapons are good at applying corrosive to multiple enemies at once). Before then, ability stripping is way more useful and you don't have to waste shard slots you may not even use on normal builds.

• For Pillage, CP is equal to 72% ability strength
• For Tharros Strike, it's 36%
• Terrify it's 30%
• Etc...

And it's always on, doesn't need you to proc status, and you don't even need to see enemies in the first place. CP is also one of the biggest damage increases if you're not armor stripping.

On 2024-03-23 at 4:34 PM, Xzorn said:

You will lose damage against Ferrite

Depending on the armor enemies have, you will not. You'll do more corrosive damage to something like a level 200 SP Heavy Gunner with 100% strip, than you will with 98% strip. And that's only corrosive damage, everything else is 100% doing less (not to mention Alloy). IDK at what armor value is the breakpoint, but it's probably lower than you think.

On 2024-03-23 at 4:34 PM, Xzorn said:

What I'd like to see is Heat Armor reduction moved to Puncture

Another nerf. Again, nooo thank you.

On 2024-03-23 at 5:35 PM, Rawbeard said:

there is a second one that does that... but I keep forgetting which one it is. I vaguely remember it didn't suck at least.

Power Donation. Unless you're Nova or in a full squad, IMO it more than sucks.

Edited March 26 by KitMeHarder

[RyllusPurple]

Shepherd might get blessed by part 2 of the pet rework?

[Fred_Avant_2019]

I wonder why you (main post) didn't mention weapon ammo recovery auras in a meta where guns are the main source of deeps.

They're not overwhelmingly strong, but they definitely help in the cases where your gun has ammo issues. Using them in conjunction with Energized Munitions is a good way to solve ammo issues weapons like Kuva Zarr have. It's gotta be worth something. Doesn't work on Kuva Bramma though (the aura, energized munitions does work).

Aura mods are a mod capacity increase before anything else, so I'm okay with them not providing too much.

Harder to acquire options do and should provide more useful effects.

[ominumi]

Aura mods are useful. People just want them to be more impactful for the content they are doing. Rejuvenate isn't going help in Steel Path. In all essence, it's a scaling issue.

[Xzorn]

3 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

I wonder why you (main post) didn't mention weapon ammo recovery auras in a meta where guns are the main source of deeps.

They're not overwhelmingly strong, but they definitely help in the cases where your gun has ammo issues. Using them in conjunction with Energized Munitions is a good way to solve ammo issues weapons like Kuva Zarr have. It's gotta be worth something. Doesn't work on Kuva Bramma though (the aura, energized munitions does work).

Aura mods are a mod capacity increase before anything else, so I'm okay with them not providing too much.

Harder to acquire options do and should provide more useful effects.

 

Scavenger Auras function for their niche purpose. They function more like a band-aid now but whatever.

 

Players keep bringing up the perk of Aura mods increasing mod capacity. This is left over from beta when Artifacts were a thing.

Artifacts were very rare and did what auras do now. Auras granting capacity was compensation for removing the skill tree system which pre-dated the mod system so players could actually use a full mod loadout when Forma were introduced. It's less of a perk and more compensation for changes made to the system.

You might notice guns have more config issues than melee these days. Same situation just more capacity creep had to happen.
It might feel like a perk but it's just one system compensating for another to keep things working.

[CrownOfShadows]

Yeah I agree 100% they are definitely lackluster. But the issue is DE has to balance around a 4 person squad stacking them. That never actually happens, but they have to put that as the ceiling.

Not sure what to do about that with the existing auras (I don't see buffing them really working for the above reason), but they could & should definitely go some different directions with new auras. I guess they could rework how the existing ones work, which in every case except one or two I'd honestly be fine with as they basically do nothing for me but add capacity.

[CrownOfShadows]

I had an idea a while back to create aura mods that are an opt-in style pooling of benefits and even though the example here might not be the best use of it I still think it's a really powerful concept in theory and much more suited to average play.

(in the aura mod section about halfway down)

[Xzorn]

On 2024-03-23 at 11:49 PM, KitMeHarder said:

Depending on the armor enemies have, you will not. You'll do more corrosive damage to something like a level 200 SP Heavy Gunner with 100% strip, than you will with 98% strip. And that's only corrosive damage, everything else is 100% doing less (not to mention Alloy). IDK at what armor value is the breakpoint, but it's probably lower than you think.

 

I would kinda argue the opposite on Armor Strip abilities. It's cool CP stacks well with them but outside Pillage. Most are small in radius. Emerald Shards kinda just ruined them but that's my opinion. Obviously you can still build around Armor strip like I did back in the day when enemy Defense scaled.

I got around to doing the math for this though.

For this example I used an even IPS spread because it does come into play.
With a single Tau Emerald Shard and Heat status at 13 Corrosive Procs.

Spoiler

Level 200 Heavy Gunner (Ferrite)
Total Armor 10,815.87

Base Armor Reduction: (1 - 50%) * (1 -(20% + 6% * 13) = 0.01 = 1%
New Armor Value = 108.16 - 26.5% Mitigation.

Weapon Emulation 33% IPS spread. 100 Base Damage 60/60% x2 = 120 Corrosive Damage. 33.3 Puncture Damage.
Heat is either 90% or 165%. I'll use 90% because we're not just comparing Pistols so Heat 90 Damage.

Damage Bonus modifiers:

• Impact -25%
• Puncture +50%
• Slash +10%
• Corrosive +75%
• Heat +25%

Unarmored Damage = Impact 24.9 Puncture 33.3 Slash 41.25 + Corrosive 120 + Heat 112.5 = 332

Corrosive Armor Double Dip:
Corrosive = 120 * (1 + 0.75)  * (300 / (300 + 108.16 * (1 - 0.75)
damage = 120 * 1.75 * (300 / (300 + (108.16 * 0.25)
damage = 120 * 1.75 * (300 / 327.04)
damage = 120 * 1.75 * 0.9173
damage = 192.6

Corrosive Damage total increase = (192.6 - 120) / 120 = +60.5%

Puncture Armor Double Dip:
Puncture = 33.3 * (1 + 0.5)  * (300 / (300 + 108.16 * (1 - 0.5)
damage = 33.3 * 1.5 * (300 / (300 + (108.16 * 0.5)
damage = 33.3 * 1.5 * (300 / 354)
damage = 33.3 * 1.5 * 0.847
damage = 42.33

Puncture Damage total increase = (42.33 - 33.3 ) / 33.3 = +27%

The rest is a little more simple Damage * Modifiers then Reduced by mitigation:
33.3 Impact * 0.75 = 24 Mitigation 24 * (1 - 0.265) = 17.64
33.3 Slash * 0.9 = 29.97 Mitigation 29.97 (1 - 0.265) = 22.03
90 Heat * 1.25 = 112.5 Mitigation 112.5 (1 -0. 265) = 82.69

Total Damage Armored: Impact 17.64 + Puncture 42.33 + Slash 22.03 + Corrosive 192.6 + Heat 82.69 = 357.3

(357.3 - 332) / 332 = +7% increase in total damage.
 

 

As I mentioned in the previous post the results can vary. Puncture weight. How long the enemy stays alive for Heat DoTs, etc. The result don't really change much with level though since armor soft caps. If you're using a higher weight Puncture or pure Elemental weapon then you'll get an even greater difference at 1% Armor.