i feel like dante is too good ?

[Gaxxian]

hace 1 hora, Anova3 dijo:

This.

If they nerf him now, he won't get un-nerfed later when it makes sense.
We've seen that with exalteds too (which is my dead horse to beat, damnit) which still don't have arcanes or access to some mods.

He is the new boi, so its normal that there is a lot of people using him (and even then, there are more Revenants than Dantes...).

Let the FOTM end, and see what happens then.

[Bizzo50]

5 minutes ago, Corvid said:

First of all, you can't say it "objectively" has any effect on the fun of an experience, given that fun itself is a subjective term.

Furthermore "Power Fantasy" doesn't just mean "I'm an unstoppable god that obliterates everything that dares to oppose me". In many cases, it actually means the opposite, giving the player the chance to overcome challenges where the odds are stacked against them and feel powerful that way.

Going to a game that I played fairly recently for an example, Armored Core VI is a power fantasy. You're a 10-metre-tall flying death machine that can use all manner of awesome weapons while dancing circles around enemy projectiles. However, you also need to be careful because playing recklessly (especially against bosses) will result in you taking hits that you may not be able to survive. You feel powerful when you complete that game specifically because it tested you (either your ability to navigate the hazards of the mission, or having the knowledge to create a build best suited to cheesing those hazards).

Now, I'm not expecting DE to change Warframe to be more like AC6 (though I think it would be cool if they took inspiration from some of the bosses in that game. The idea of a fight between a Warframe and a boss similar to BALTEUS or IBIS CEL 240 gives me chills), since this game has its own style of power fantasy. My point is that reducing the power of an outlier doesn't diminish Warframe's ability to provide said fantasy.

Regardless of all of the above, Dante will likely still be powerful post-nerf, given that DE have specifically stated that they don't want to be too heavy-handed with the nerfs.

Fair points all, I guess I may be a bit jaded. I've boarded the hype train too many times only to be disappointed. I also just don't see why you would need to be talking about nerfing something days after release. I would think you would want it to simmer a bit and see what's what after the initial hype wears off. In any case, I'm hoping with you that the tweaks are minimal. 

[Gaxxian]

En 1/4/2024 a las 21:18, quina112 dijo:

It just made steel path easy and less engaging 

Lol, meanwhile this is a viable build for SP that turns all your team into immortal beings with literal zero effort and investing zero resources (not even potato):

Why the people says that Dante makes SP easy, yet they don't open thousands of posts asking for a Mesmer nerf? Its a mistery...

Edited April 3 by Gaxxian

[ShaloomHD]

we do not nerf things unless it AUTOMATES PLAY, is DISRUPTIVE to a squad, or is DOMINANT in states

 

ermm Okay baruuk, citrine, gara, gauss, gyre, hildryn, khora, limb, mesa, nezha, octavia, protea, revenant, saryn, i think all these frames fall under one or more of your nerfing philosophy so sorry but thats Bs Dante is a strong and well put together frame thats brand new stop listening to these youtubers and people who havent played that long please someone tell me what makes him OP when theres other frames thats just has good and just has strong has he is is overguards strong but high levels or just base steel path? hes nukes rooms yes but its 3 line of sight checked so without enemies with status on them from your 3 thats needs to see them hes 4 doesnt nuke unless we talking non steel path or base... so if someone can tell me what im missing i dont see a issue with him hes a good frame so please dont nerf him and buff other frames 

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Nah, I just agreed to an appeal to definition when I shouldn't have. You should be quite familiar with how I feel about arguing over words and not meaning. So for agreeing to a fallacy, I am truly sorry. 😢

So to be extra clear for you so you don't get your definitions twisted, I was talking about powercreep specifically, the survey in question talked about powercreep specifically, it's Kit that wanted to turn that into an argument about progression. So if you or they don't want to talk about powercreep, talk to someone else.

But what you say is not related to powercreep, what you talk about is just simply progression as Kit points out. The things we have that could be considered powercreep actually reduces power creep by making more and old items viable at higher levels aswell. Shards, helminth, incarnons etc. that just strengthen without replacing something. For instance, releasing a new version of a mod every few years (vitality, intensify, fiber etc.) isnt powercreep, that is just regular progress over time so there is something new to get in a live service setting.

Since enemies have practically not changed either with increasing power (since scaling has always been a thing) we dont have powercreep with mobs either. We just get new enemies with some new mechanics. We also dont leave old content behind, so yet another thing that indicates that WF doesnt have any real extent of powercreep. What WF has is a fear of adding content aimed for endgame, since the devs have this odd idea of being "inclusive" so everyone can more or less play new releases, even though new players have the whole game already to go through. If you actually look at things released it is just items added to give a new standard baseline as they start utilizing more of the already exsisting enemy scaling in the game, which kinda peaked with the introduction of Kuva weapons. For instance they didnt introduce more powerful items with Duviri, instead we got sidegrades that incentiviced using very old items again.

And my point regarding the survey is. That if you answered it based on your opinion on our power, you answered the question wrong, since we dont have any particular powercreep in WF as it is, and power progression and powercreep are not interchangable. And if you answered it based on actual powercreep, then which powercreep did you refer to? Enemies? Players? And in what relation? Players in comparison to mobs, frames/weapons in comparison to frames/weapons? As I said, their questions are horribly vague and straight up bad and hard to answer. Since you dont even know what they actually base it on due to how those questions are asked and answered.

While we surely have a few things that could be considered powercreep it is more an issue with poorly balanced outliers that can simply get fixed by tuning and tweaking those items specifically.

 

[Corvid]

25 minutes ago, Bizzo50 said:

I also just don't see why you would need to be talking about nerfing something days after release.

Sometimes, these things become clear pretty quickly once they're put into players' hands. AC6 had a weapon called the Therapist that got buffed in a balance pass, then nerfed a few days later when it turned out that the buffs made it broken in AC vs AC fights.

13 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

thousands of posts

There is exactly one thread suggesting that Dante may be too powerful, vs at least three saying that he should be left as is.

And for the record, there were plenty of posts about Mesmer Skin's rework/augment back when they happened. Are you really that surprised that the more recent addition is the one that's getting more discussion now?

Edited April 3 by Corvid

[Kronxito]

8 hours ago, Waeleto said:

So dante is going to be nerfed because he's disruptive, what i assume the nerf is targeted at is his overguard (I HOPE it's the overguard he grants to allies and not himself) and i just want to point out that nerfing 1 warframe isn't gonna make the overguard issue go away, overguard is a fun mechanic for people who use and it's a fresh and new way of survival that doesn't involve health but it contradicts really old mechanics that require health to be damaged so here is the thing:

If you nerf dante's own overguard you've done nothing at all except nerf his own survivability by that standard you should nerf every single tank in the game
If you nerf the amount of overguard he gives to allies then you've also done nothing because he'll prevent these old mechanics from functioning

That leaves 2 options:
1- remove the ability for him to give others overguard at all 
2- FIX OVERGUARD 

Also here's some testing i did with my MAIN builds of frost/styanax/dante, i didn't change these builds to get higher numbers, these are my daily builds that i play with jsut to point out that the problem here isn't dante:

1- Frost:

As you can see, frost is sharing 57k overguard with his allies, ideally i'd want to forma his aura and use growing power but i was too lazy to do so, he was also the slowest in stacking molt augmented using only incarnon torid.

2- Styanax: 

Again, Styanax is sharing 62k overguard with allies, same thing with the aura so you can get more overguard out of this build. He also was the fastest to stack molt augmented using his 4 only and had the least energy issues (he also has the least investment since both my frost and dante have multiple shards including tau while he only has 1 for casting speed).

3- Dante:

And finally dante is sharing 70k overguard with allies, he also is the only warframe with growing power and he was the second fastest to stack molt augmented with his 3-3-4 combo.

My point from all this is to show that dante isn't the issue when it comes to overguard numbers, people are just complaining about him in this particular aspect because he's new and they're seeing it a lot, if one of the other warframes received overguard on release while still being played a lot and tried by many players the same complains would rise at the time.

Nerfing the overguard of 1 warframe or even the 3 of them isn't solving the issue.

I dont mind if they keep overguard only for Dante. Im happy that way. I dont want to share my Dante’s overguard. 

Edited April 3 by Kronxito

[Waeleto]

Just now, Kronxito said:

I dont mind if they keep overguard only for Dante. Im happy that way. I dont want to share my overguard. 

Couldn't agree more

[Gaxxian]

hace 5 minutos, Corvid dijo:

There is exactly one thread suggesting that Dante may be two powerful, vs at least three saying that he should be left as is.

Look again. Funny thing is, nearly all those threads asking for nerf are from people that didn't play Dante or used him in high level content.

hace 5 minutos, Corvid dijo:

And for the record, there were plenty of posts about Mesmer Skin's rework/augment back when they happened. Are you really that surprised that the more recent addition is the one that's getting more discussion now?

I'm really surprised about the arguments to nerf Dante when other WAY worse examples are still in-game.

[Corvid]

1 minute ago, Gaxxian said:

Look again.

I looked before I posted that. The most active threads are the ones opposing nerfing him, and the most vocal players are the same.

6 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

used him in high level content.

To be frank, "high level content", at least as defined by the community right now, doesn't really matter to the discussion. Only a minority of players actually sticks with runs that long, and the game never requires it, so balance discussions should be focused on the level ranges that the game is actually built around.

3 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

I'm really surprised about the arguments to nerf Dante when other WAY worse examples are still in-game.

Because, once again, Dante is the recent addition. Players aren't unaware of those other examples, they just know it's not as productive to talk about them when DE's attention isn't on them.

[SneakyErvin]

The only thing I can see as a sensible adjustment to him is his OG since it is just way too easy to stack compared to other group-wide OG mechanics plus it doesnt come with some of the drawback of other OG. Like Kullervo's that cant be used versus ability immune enemies since it requires you to actually hit the enemy. But I'd probably just adjust it by giving it a cap for the group, like 50% of the personal cap, meaning in the avarage build you still have easy access to 20k+ OG for the group, which also regs on its own. And then add better buff tracking to him so we dont have to look among the other buffs.

The rest of his kit can stay as is, since the 3+3+4 combo is still limited to an angle for priming, so it comes out comparable to many other AoE damage sources both from other frames and weapons. I practically played him, tried out most things I could think of but got bored due to the excessive spamming. Sure he deals alot of damage, but damn it's alot of button spamming!

 

[Haleks]

1 hour ago, Bizzo50 said:

I don't know, for me it comes down to fun, and Dante is the most fun I have had playing a frame in a while. I think he's just awesome as-is. And I know it's on me, but because I was so excited for him I spent the $15 to get him and the extras and didn't regret it for a moment... until the announced nerf. 

 

I know I know, DE hits things with the nerf bat, I know that they need to balance the game, I know they are trying their best, it just sucks to see fun get nerfed.

Ultimately, a frame should be fun for everyone - and that includes not taking the fun away from other players...

Take Gauss... Every time there is a Gauss, other players end up running behind him, with nothing left to shoot at. Nerf him first, DE. 

 

It makes no sense nerfing Dante if the worst offender is left untouched.

[CrownOfShadows]

Yeah I think removing the sharing on all overgaurd is the first step that should be taken across the board.

[Bizzo50]

1 minute ago, Haleks said:

Ultimately, a frame should be fun for everyone - and that includes not taking the fun away from other players...

Take Gauss... Every time there is a Gauss, other players end up running behind him, with nothing left to shoot at. Nerf him first, DE. 

 

It makes no sense nerfing Dante if the worst offender is left untouched.

The only way to create parity is to make every frame exactly the same. I would also take issue with you saying "every time" as that is absolutely not the case. 

[Waeleto]

1 minute ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Yeah I think removing the sharing on all overgaurd is the first step that should be taken across the board.

I agree, people will be happy and it won't hurt those 3 warframes

[Aruquae]

I call bullS#&$ on this “disruptive gameplay”

The only thing that counts as disruptive gameplay is the overguard he grants screwing people’s builds that require losing health (or shields). I guarantee you this poor excuse is just going to be used to make it seem like it was worth the nerf, and I know for a fact, that the overguard cap to teammates isn’t going to be the only change. 

I hate when the devs use the “disruptive gameplay” or “promotes afk playstyle” as an excuse to change/nerf something. Just say it how it is

Edited April 4 by Aruquae

[Waeleto]

2 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

I call bullS#&$ on this “disruptive gameplay”

The only thing that counts as disruptive gameplay is the overguard he grants screwing people’s builds that require losing health (or shields). I guarantee you this poor excuse is just going to be used to make it seem like it was worth the nerf, and I know for a fact, that the overguard cap to teammates isn’t going to be the only change. 

I hate when the devs use the “disruptive gameplay” or “promotes afk playstyle” as an to change/nerf something. Just say it how it is

I agree with you but i also hope that the devs will look at all the feedback and discussion across the forums/reddit/discord in the past 24 hours and make good decisions regarding dante, when it comes to nerfing warframes it's VERY easy to make them garbage to the point that hey need a band aid augment and i really hope that's not the case with dante but it was the case for the last 2 warframes who were nerfed on release (gyre/styanax) so i'm worried tbh

[MortalMercenary]

2 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Oh, I never noticed but perhaps if it was capped for the squad only, it might make it easier for teammates, since 50/25% will be eaten in high-level content, since it can cause issues for mods and other stuff to work, as people stated.

If they fix the Negative Efficiency no, but looking at his Efficiency by increasing it will, yes

I don't have Negative Efficiency on my build since I absolutely hate min-maxing and I'm not too fond of haveing numbers in the Negative, regardless of what build I have, since I hate seeing it, I like good numbers and even numbers, call it OCD if you want.

Ah, never mind then

The only reason why I suggested it was that Dante can easily just re-cast his Light/Light to get OG back at any point, rather than just cast and forget

Fair enough

Hm, yeah

I don't see why Augment suggestion should be a thing but I just tossed it in there, since DE likes to bandaid things, rather then fix them

If negative efficiency you mean how the mod menu doesn't update energy Costs that's just a UI bug, if you test it you would see actual energy cost in mission is faithful to efficiency stats.

[Gintokari]

 

While obviously Dante is a stronger than average Warframe, I wonder why make adjustments only to this Warframe? If we have known for a long time that Saryn and Octavia, to give two examples, are Warframes who also "are stronger than average", why only Dante? I don't think it's something they should do without first seeing other Warframes or leaving it as is

[KhajiitDova]

On 2024-03-31 at 11:01 AM, trst said:

Yeah I hope DE doesn't just nerf Dante. I hope they nerf all overperforming/gamebreaking frames.

Honestly if this was the case I wouldn't even be mad about Dante getting reworked.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 2 horas, Corvid dijo:

Incarnons were originally meant to be balanced out vs AOE by the fact that you couldn't get 100% uptime for the stronger mode. Evidently some of them need some tuning on that front, so I wouldn't be surprised if we see a balance pass for Incarnons later down the road. Hell, the fact that they've been so powerful for so long proves that DE don't just wave the nerf hammer haphazardly.

It's not the same... Incarnon are harder to get than a warframe that you literally farm in 1 hour. in addition to the fact that not all incarnations are powerful and I can do the exact same thing with a decent non incarnon gun.

[DecadeX]

The short answer is that Dante's ceiling isn't higher than normal.  The long answer is that his floor is very high for the amount of execution that requires. Octavia and Saryn are great examples to compare to. At low levels Saryn wipes the map too quickly which makes her a royal pain in the butt to play. A good Saryn build in most regular starchart content, and I'd even include early SP content, is complete overkill. The game will not spawn strong enough enemies fast enough for her to maintain damage and that brings her powerlevel down. Octavia likewise is really high APM with the amount of crouch spam you have to do to maintain invis, and with overguard protecting some enemies from the taunt effect of her 1 and 2, she needs that invis. That's before we talk about build requirements on either of them. Dante by contrast works well on even very basic mods and can press 3 twice then 4 to wipe most maps without a line of sight check. You do not even need to hit the Dark Verses in most content. Gara is an example of a frame that can do similar mapwiping, but she has much stricter build requirements, wants an armor strip a lot more, and needs hard to get tools like Ceramic Dagger Incarnon to do it. Dante it's all in his 3 and 4. He's not actually overpowered at the high level, but because he works so well on low investment, he's liable to be really annoying and appear extraordinarily powerful to the average player that doesn't know how to mod particularly well.

[RogueD20]

I find that after only 1 week of Dante’s release we are at the Nerf answer. It seems to be a knee jerk response when the better outcome would be a recheck and rebalance of the systems in place. I know, more time to do that. As a veteran player I have had a blast playing Dante, Saryn has gotten a well earned rest. But it is absolutely frustrating that we get penalised for playing the game. How about every time I get out a Warframe that melts everything with the bat of and eye I just set to Solo so I don’t upset anyone (yep that is how frustrating this Nerf conversation has gotten)

[CrownOfShadows]

I remain completely mystified by what DE's vision of warframe overguard is for the long term. If you introduce something like this on top of everything else, you should have a plan for it.

The frames chosen to have overguard are bizarre. The hyper-sharing of overguard is bizarre. The high numbers and high regen rate of it are bizarre.

Like what is the point of it? Is it supposed to be new survival mechanic? But then why does its scaling suck? Is it meant to be a soft increase in general EHP? Then why doesn't everyone have access to it and why is it so trivial to replenish in huge quantities?

I'm just really confused about what it's place in our arsenal is meant to be. It's on track to replace shields and hp completely at this rate - if we keep putting hyper OG on everything, soon everyone will build like Dante - just ability mods.

[quxier]

18 hours ago, Sicoplaster said:

it can kill at quite high levels but its energy cost is excessive compared to other damage-specialist warframes apart from others. warframes whether they are damage specialists or they don't have much ease in gutting armor,

Is energy really that high? I mean, sure, to cast 4th you need 2x25 + 50. However with his Grimoire, Energize etc he can regenerate so much energy that it's not issue. And you don't even have to specialize in "energy regen/source" things like Helminth abilities or companions.