i feel like dante is too good ?

[Xenevier]

7 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Gotta agree with this ^

Sure, Xenevier did make the original post that DID start this trend of topics and as Waeleto said: "The community manager commented on it and the creative director referenced it in the dev short so obviously people are gonna talk about it and who posted it" so all signs point to Xenevier but at the end of the day, all they did was post their feelings on Dante in no way did they directly ask for a nerf

However, I can see that pretty much everyone disagrees with this and is looking for someone to blame, so I can understand how easy is it to lock targets on the original poster of who asked about Dante to begin with but like Xene said, there is absolutely no possible way that this person alone made DE think "Yup, let's nerf him" since Xene isn't the only person who provided Feedback, I don't pay attention to Reddit or YTs so I have no idea what they been saying.

Lastly, I will say this: When the "Nerf" (or multiple balance tweaking) does come and Dante is somewhat nerfed to some extent, I strongly urge everyone not to start a witch hunt, since it will only lead to well bad outcomes.

Also, Xene, don't feel like you are responsible for this, all you did was voice your opinion on Dante and that was that sure nothing stopping you from wishing you could go back in time and stop yourself, we all wish we could do that xD

 

Also, each time I spell your name, it keeps auto correcting to Xena, no idea why..

yeah i mean there's not much that can be done rn lol, people would rather find a culprit asap and start focusing their displeasure on said target instead of going back and rereading that post for themselves, the "hate" i talked about is mostly passive-aggressive on the forums and just no filter on reddit but i try not to take it to heart cuz i still stand by my beliefs 

it is extremely unfun to be on the losing side of an argument, something goes to your favor and now everyone raises pitch forks and points it at you but what can you do, people will do what they think is appropriate, and do believe me if the nerf is anything more than "dante overguard cap went from 15k to 14.9k" i will most likely be burned at the stake lol

[Boddypenn]

On 2024-04-03 at 3:12 AM, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Lmao but his Overguard is worse than both Mesmer Skin and the share is worse than the Augment, meaning that if this is an 'issue' it's a completely meaningless issue that has an already bigger problem that's being ignored meaning that this talk of balance is complete horsecrap. 

Mesmer Skin is on a character that doesn’t deal anywhere near as much damage as Dante, and Styanax requires an augment, which takes a mod slot, not only that, but he uses much less energy to do it, and generates the overguard quicker, and generates more. It’s also got a much wider range. No matter how you look at it, Dante is oppressive, and is kinda making the game too easy for just having 1 Dante on your team

[Binket_]

3 hours ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

It's a PVE game! Why should it matter how quickly enemies die?

PvE games need to be balanced too.
This is not a crazy concept, this has been done for literal years.

If people keep using something braindead and boring because it's powerful?
Chances are that powerful thing is going to knocked down a peg or two.
It doesn't matter if it's PvP or PvE. It's multiplayer and some people don't know the word "enough".

3 hours ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Especially at this point when Warframe has thrown all semblance of balance out of a 30 story window and bricked it back up. 

Gee, I wonder how we got here.

Do I gesture to the whole room... or do I point fingers and laugh?
... probably the former, this isn't funny enough to even fake-laugh.

All I'm hearing is:
"No, don't take my key to victory away! How else am I supposed to play the game, adapting and improving my skill over time?!
That doesn't make sense, I just throw money at things until they work!"

As if the idea of learning how to dodge is anti-matter to them.
There's a reason why everyone mocks Revenant players for dying, y'know.
It's not because they're bad. It's because they're bad and try to cover up with a stupidly overpowered kit... and still fail!

At that point? Just admit it, you need to go back and relearn the game.
Since you're too stubborn to do that though? You need a cheat code.
That's where Warframes like Dante come in and you've been metaphorically caught.

 

3 hours ago, Xenevier said:

it is extremely unfun to be on the losing side of an argument, something goes to your favor and now everyone raises pitch forks and points it at you but what can you do

Usually something along the lines of "YOUR DISTANT CHILDREN WILL LOOK AT ME AND FEEL SHAME!"
... but this is Warframe, so you kinda just shrug it off and say "People are idiots" and (try) to move on.

Keyword: Try.
This is the Internet. Petty spite and overreaction is the fuel for the hellfire that is our "World Wide Web".

[ShaloomHD]

13 minutes ago, Boddypenn said:

Mesmer Skin is on a character that doesn’t deal anywhere near as much damage as Dante, and Styanax requires an augment, which takes a mod slot, not only that, but he uses much less energy to do it, and generates the overguard quicker, and generates more. It’s also got a much wider range. No matter how you look at it, Dante is oppressive, and is kinda making the game too easy for just having 1 Dante on your team

Does it matter mesmer skin is on someone that dont nuke lol he can still cast is 2 and afk dante can at low levels thats it. yes dante can do damage but so can alot off other frames and quicker dante needs to cast 3 abilities to nuke and thats not cheap on energy.. plus he has to make sure is 3 hits the ones he wants to nuke.... and Styanax yes needs a aug to do it maybe if dante came out b4 him we would be saying the same thing ...also look at Nezha aug its turned him in to a mulit room nuke full strip and he can out live dante at high levels so aug are a way to  put things right without a full rework so bring augs up and saying they take a mod slot is to me stupid we want frames to come out not needing them

Edited April 4 by ShaloomHD

[Tiltskillet]

7 hours ago, Merrcenary said:

First they came for the wukong, and I did not speak out—
  Because I was not playing on wukong.
Then they came for the zarr/ogris/etc, and I did not speak out -
  Because I was not playing with aoe.
Then they came for Dante — and there was no one left to speak for me.

classics

It turns my stomach a bit to see a quotation responding to genocide twisted for the use of players who can't abide a change to a video game.

[Xenevier]

3 minutes ago, ShaloomHD said:

Does it matter mesmer skin is on someone that dont nuke lol he can still cast is 2 and afk dante can at low levels thats it. yes dante can do damage but so can alot off other frames and quicker dante needs to cast 3 abilities to nukeand thats not cheap on energy.. plus he has to make sure is 3 hits the ones he wants to nuke.... 

your post contradicts itself, you're saying its not important to look at the whole kit, its unfair that the TANK frame can tank and the damage dealing warframe cant do as good as a job as the literally dedicated tank character? also i dont get what you mean not cheap on energy, 334 is 100 energy cost, that is standard for most warframes' 4th ability and his 3 being AOE and line of sight with high base range makes the last one not a problem either

[ShaloomHD]

13 minutes ago, Xenevier said:

your post contradicts itself, you're saying its not important to look at the whole kit, its unfair that the TANK frame can tank and the damage dealing warframe cant do as good as a job as the literally dedicated tank character? also i dont get what you mean not cheap on energy, 334 is 100 energy cost, that is standard for most warframes' 4th ability and his 3 being AOE and line of sight with high base range makes the last one not a problem either

not all frames fit in a being either a tank or a damage dealer.... and when did i say not to look at the whole kit?? and yes costs 100 but to use his 4 you need to  cast two 3s.... alot and you will run out fast with out alot of energy sustain or nurish... is 3 not aoe its cone in front of him and yes its line of sight checked is 4 not but ithout slash procs you aint killing nothing with is 4 unless none steel path 

Edited April 4 by ShaloomHD

[vFlitz]

35 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

If you're at a point where Overguard gets shredded that quickly? There is no Armor, Shield or Health value to save you.
This is also why Level Cap with things like Invisibility tends to be a massive joke.
When you turn the Enemy AI off? You can be at 2 Health and it wouldn't matter.

However, for every bit of content that isn't above Level 400? _{(I.E. Literally anything that isn't 20 minutes or so in a Steel Path Endless)}
It will have very little dents put in your Overguard. If any.
This was the case for Frost, it was the case for Styanax.
Dante just ups the ante with even easier-to-get Overguard and passively regenerating it with Triumph.

Keep in mind, the game- as much I hate that it is- is built around baby-mode since any content outside of Steel Path rarely breaks 60. Let alone 100.
Hell, the only nodes to break 55 are the newest nodes in the game, the Sanctum Anatomica ones... and the Level 80 Conjunction Survival.

There are few cases that can shred his overguard even at the mission's entry level, particularly Narmer Bombards and Rogue Necramechs. Rare, but technically not impossible.

Still, here's the thing - you can walk all over non-endless missions with any frame, so adjusting his Overguard to that ballpark would be equivalent to making it only useful for gating. Hell, his Overguard cap could be 50 and it'd make little to no difference against strong enemies, it would only make playing him in content that can't provide any challenge either way extremely tedious. 

The only conceivable reason as for why DE would have given him something new in the form of Overguard regen on top of high Overguard output would be in attempt to make his defenses more viable at higher levels.. and they succeeded, at least to an extent. His capability to comfortably get to level 500 or so before he starts needing to micromanage Overguard is refreshing because the roster of frames that can do it without relying on external crutches like Rolling Guard or invulnerability from operator is rather stale, and it's not even as if he outperforms them in that regard either.

Nerf them all with equal treatment and I won't mind if he gets toned down. I do mind that he's being singled out for no reason.

46 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

Last I checked? It is. Unless they changed that since last I checked (which would have to a VERY stealthy nerf)-- it should be doing big numbers.

That being said, this is all assuming you aren't using an external source of Status... like a Sentinel perhaps.
It wouldn't even be that complicated to use something like Ocucor, Epitaph, Ferrox, Cedo, etc. for some more pesky targets like Acolytes.
Even IF it doesn't proc by itself, any source of Slash, Toxin or Heat is enough to fatally kill most things quickly.

No, throw a Tragedy at steel path heavy gunners without affecting them by Dark Verse and that nice 14k damage will harm them by about 137 and do nothing more. And sure, you can prime with weapons for enemies that Dark Verse slash alone isn't enough for, but with the exceptions of sentinels (which don't scale scale extremely high), that's additional time added on top of his casting sequence. At that point it's also just using the ability to make overpowered guns better, and there's plenty of abilities that can do that.

Funny that you mention Acolytes, because they're actually a rather cumbersome scenario for him with their cap of 4 procs per type. That means you have to ensure the 4 that they get are quality high damage ones, otherwise Tragedy will only tickle them, and that's not something you can control in a team setting. It also forces you to proc Slash before you cast Dark Verse because Dark Verse isn't strong enough for them.

Without armor strip Tragedy also doesn't work as well with Heat and Toxin as it does with Slash, because it still uses the proc's proper damage type. So only detonated Slash deals True damage and bypasses armor, while Heat and Toxin still get reduced by it.

It's only a radial nuke against low level or unarmored enemies, anything tougher you need to set up manually, first with only Dark Verse and on the higher end with weapon procs on top. I'll admit though that there is one thing that's quite rare about it - because it's not a buff, it lets Dante stack damage multipliers via Helminth. You can multiply your proc damage with Roar and then Tragedy multiplies them again (and possibly Roar applies yet another time, though it's tricky to determine)

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

Invocations, yes. That requires the Alt-Fire.
Canticles should work just fine. If not, the wording for the ability may be off.
Mind you, not the first time DE has done that. So I can believe it.

Given that DE intentionally made Noctua capable of using ALL the Tome Mods with no restrictions?
I dunno, you'd assume they would allow Wordwarden to use them.
I'd want an official statement from DE if that's not supposed to be the case.

They don't, and it takes 3 minutes to test it in Simulacrum. If you want to argue that he's overtuned then it'd be prudent to have accurate information, because otherwise you're just overselling how strong he is based on assumptions and guesses and people overselling him and the actual contribution to EHP a shiny Overguard number makes is why this entire discussion is going on to begin with. He's strong and versatile, sure. But nothing he does breaks past what was already achievable with other options.

In about a month when the shiny new luster wears off people would have gone back to their Wukongs or Thermal Sunder Titanias for quick missions and whatever it is that they prefer from the selection of frames that apparently have DE's blessing to be blatantly overpowered for endurance. Only people who actually like Dante would be still playing him.

[_Eclips3_]

On 2024-04-01 at 2:43 PM, Joylesstuna said:

Just because you like a frame does not make them good. Limbo is in a terrible spot balance wise.

Limbo is S tier, what are you on about?

[MouthfulOJoules]

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

Heat, Toxin and Slash procs all get affected by Tragedy.

Slash may not be innate to Ocucor, but Secondary Encumber exists!
... and it's a beam weapon that auto-homes in.

I'm not saying it's creative, but I am going to say that the logic checks out.
^{Which is rare for a Youtube Video involving Warframe.}

Ocucor without cascadia flare (potentially) and without the augment (which is around 250p right now, or so i hear) suffers pretty hard, so doubt. Either way, I said the reason why I think that video can get disregarded, if you are talking about non LC content (like most seem to be here), because an endgame built ocucor busts sp content on its own, you can put it on caliban for all it matters.
 

 

2 hours ago, MouthfulOJoules said:

So, if the tweaks are incoming anyway, why not...

1. Make the OG from 2 and/or 4 scale, knock it down for lower power content, increase to usable levels for higher level content up to levelcap (for example give it a cap increase that scales with the amount of damage taken per time, or that is based on enemy level, or "increases with the overall team overguard damage taken by the team", or make it vampiric towards enemy overguard, dante only or teamwide with an augment? idk that would definitely need some input.
2. Make it count as both health and armor damage for vex armor users, but decrease the growth% per damage. That way chroma can actually use more than 1/4th of his kit with a Dante in the squad. still doesn't fix the Hunter Adrenaline issue caused by overguard, unless combat discipline is in the mix.

I'm rather interested in your opinion on this, though. does this not have a potential for solving the whole shebang with OG?

I don't really have a side when it comes to room/map nuking, there are already so many frames that do it just as well, if not better. ESPECIALLY if you are looking at endgame setups.

[Binket_]

2 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

Nerf them all with equal treatment and I won't mind if he gets toned down. I do mind that he's being singled out for no reason.

Ideally? I wouldn't mind that either.
I mentioned "having the current spread, but spread it across any teammates it affects".

So while Dante (and others) could have insane numbers, it becomes more taxing for him with more entities to affect.
Granted, you could run into a situation like Oberon's Renewal-- but I think safeguards for such should've been in place for that too.

This makes Dante's own defenses more frail if there's more teammates nearby, but... you have teammates nearby. Most likely contributing their own buffs.
But this also gives him some more leeway when it's just him.

Best of both worlds for everyone. Smiles all around.

7 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

And sure, you can prime with weapons for enemies that Dark Verse slash alone isn't enough for, but with the exceptions of sentinels (which don't scale scale extremely high), that's additional time added on top of his casting sequence.

I often get a lot of weapons with lingering effects if I plan to afflict lots of statuses.
Zenistar is a personal favorite, especially if I don't blame on going exclusively Melee.

Those are usually my go-to if I need "status priming", but in my experience?
Running Steel Path Mot and having Dark Verse+Tragedy was enough to nuke pretty much anything.
^{Mot is just my personal preference, thanks to the variety of enemies with different health types and varying density to find there.}

As for Sentinels? So long as you're not immobile for long periods of time, they're VERY active.
Verglas is one of the best sources of Statuses in the game in my opinion, since it's almost always firing.
In fact, because they stick so close to me? I often don't have to worry about them going down.

11 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

Funny that you mention Acolytes, because they're actually a rather cumbersome scenario for him with their cap of 4 procs per type.

13 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

I'll admit though that there is one thing that's quite rare about it - because it's not a buff, it lets Dante stack damage multipliers via Helminth. You can multiply your proc damage with Roar and then Tragedy multiplies them again (and possibly Roar applies yet another time, though it's tricky to determine)

Precisely why I mentioned primers. They're a specific situation where that's more viable.
... but to be fair, they're also known for being stupid easy to kill or nullifying 75% of your kit.

However, there is more to it than that.
I haven't tried Archon Shards on him _{(because frankly put, from my playtests? He REALLY didn't need them)} but any that boost Ability Damage should make that number even MORE cataclysmic.
Combine with Roar- what with Faction Damage and all- and uhhhh... yeah, you get the idea.

15 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

They don't, and it takes 3 minutes to test it in Simulacrum.

Like I said, if they're not working? That feels unintentional.
I didn't know it at the time, as I didn't explicitly check for that yet.
For the most part, I'm still working on a Yareli build. Namely involving Dark Verse there.

18 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

In about a month when the shiny new luster wears off people would have gone back to their Wukongs or Thermal Sunder Titanias for quick missions and whatever it is that they prefer from the selection of frames that apparently have DE's blessing to be blatantly overpowered for endurance. Only people who actually like Dante would be still playing him.

Is that not the point?
"Only people who actually like Dante would be still playing him" seems to insist that it kills him completely.

Of course people go back to those meta-slave builds. This is something happening even BEFORE Warframe's creation in other gaemes.
The thing is that there's this Goldilocks-Zone that still makes him "fun", but isn't used strictly for reasons similar to Revenant.

Frankly, I still think most Meta-Slave builds are the product of boring people playing boring ways enough for it to go uncontested.
DE sees the usage, they know why it's being used and probably know the headache involved with changing it.
Hell, they barely touched Nourish and people riot over that...

At a certain degree of it though? You just gotta bite the bullet, because the problem will only continue to grow otherwise.

 

7 minutes ago, MouthfulOJoules said:

Ocucor without cascadia flare (potentially) and without the augment (which is around 250p right now, or so i hear) suffers pretty hard, so doubt.

The Augment absolutely helps, but I run Secondary Encumber myself. (Galvanized Mods love it.)
You can get around the augment by using Holster Reload mods, commonly accessed by the Synth Mod Set.
However, it can get hard to start up if enemies get too tanky. Which is why I try to start it with targets like "Butchers".

But this hardly new information, I've just used it before a lot of the upgrades came along-- so I've gotten the hang of making it work.

9 minutes ago, MouthfulOJoules said:

Either way, I said the reason why I think that video can get disregarded, if you are talking about non LC content (like most seem to be here), because an endgame built ocucor busts sp content on its own, you can put it on caliban for all it matters.

Most Warframe "Youtube Videos" tend to be pretty lackluster and cookie-cutter.
Especially a problem when people advertise REALLY dumb things like "Primed Sure Footed Atlas"...
^{What is the Overframe were they thinking?!}

My point was more to express that it's large-scale Status Spreading (especially with Secondary Encumber) makes Tragedy hit that much harder.
Yes, it's only Toxin, Heat and Slash-- but there are useful modifiers on there like Viral.
Also, it's just nice to be able to proc things like Radiation or Electric. Gives a tiiiiny bit more breathing room with some targets.

Less "Ocucor wrecks" and more "There are more aspects to account for than just Ocucor".

[Colyeses]

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

... what?
First off, Triumph is only ONE part of the Overguard. You're forgetting Light Verse which you have to cast anyway to get Triumph.
You have to cast it for both Wordwarden and Pageflight, so if you're trying to get ALL the buffs up? That's 4 casts of Light Verse at least.
More than enough to get people plenty of Overguard, assuming Triumph doesn't instantly max it out. (Or top it off with the extra regen for that matter)

Wordwarden and Pageflight last like two minutes. You're not constantly recasting those, either. And Light Verse, by itself, does not grant that much.

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

... also Final Stand is ALSO a 100 Energy Ability.
If you're going to make the excuse of Styanax's 3, may I gesture to Xata Invocation.
Something Dante can EASILY proc give the wide shot that is his Noctua's Alt-Fire.

Final Stand is not Styanax' defense ability, that's Rally Point, at 75 energy.

Also, I don't know what Xata Invocation has to do with this? 

Also also, you could use Xata Invocation on Noctua, but you're not gonna be able to keep that up, it's very hard to get it properly stacked, AND it cuts into Wordwarden.

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

If this were Expedite Suffering with a x1 Multiplier? I'd be inclined to believe it needing a bit more Statuses to make it go boom.
... but you're talking SLASH dealt in the THOUSANDS with a BASE MULTIPLIER of x3.

Is that supposed to be impressive? 

Steel Path enemies are in the millions of EHP. Slash damage does not bypass armour by default, only the DoT does, and Tragedy can't proc it, nor does it allow the remainder of the slash damage to continue to benefit from its armour ignoring quality. 

Test it out. Try the results. Dante isn't doing these wipes -nearly- as comfortably as many other picks. He puts in way more work, and it's way less reliable.

And it's a snapshot nuke with no persistence. 

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

There is no need for Viral-- you just win. Period!
Just add Range, not that you really need it considering it's a 30m Radius without them!
RADIALLY. Not the cone that Expedite Suffering has!

The problem is, though, that without any primer, Tragedy deals just 6500. You can keep stressing that this thing is a radial power, but enemies outside your frontal cone that have no status effects on them because you didn't hit them with a weapon, nor with your Dark Verses, are going to completely ignore this ability. Tragedy is, effectively, NOT a radial ability, because any damage on a non-primed target is negligible.

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

This is assuming you're using JUST Dark Verse to do this too, you can add a Sentinel or Panzer Vulpaphyla to handle Status spread in that regard!

Panzer's viral damage, that doesn't get amplified by Tragedy.

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

I'm well are the havoc Prismatic Gem can bring myself.
I am however looking at this for a broader picture and for the longer term.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that you are NOT seeing the big picture here.

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

It's far less possible to "just nuke" with Prismatic Gem. Nor is it easy to automate either.

It really isn't. With that corrosive damage added, Prismatic Gem does a ton of damage. And no, Prismatic Gem is easier to automate. Once it's up, you just 1, and you're done. The gem will pick them off one by one, but Prismatic Gem stays up so you can just keep doing it. And you get a ton of energy back, if your STR is high enough. And you're supporting the rest of your team while doing it. 

Compared to Dante that constantly has to prime every single enemy and then detonate them.

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

Personally, I think Archon Mods are trivial to get-- but most don't. Dante doesn't need these mods, arguably doesn't need Tome Mods either.

No, Dante just needs a plethora of other mods to kick his STR well over 200%, as opposed to one mod that Citrine doesn't -need- to be good. It's just what Citrine needs to be a solid nuker, which is outside her main role of support.

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

Fractured Blast making Energy Orbs is nice, we have a plethora of ways to make energy though.
Some of which aren't even locked to the Warframe itself.

That's still leagues better than Dante's nothing!

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

Unless Enemies are suddenly deciding to die of their own volition, it seems to be the case for me.
I'm not seeing anything on the Wiki or other sources saying otherwise either.

As it puts it:
"Enemies hit by Tragedy while debuffed with active Slash, Heat, or Toxin Status Effect will instantly receive the full damage from all damage ticks of the procs, multiplied by 2.25x / 2.5x / 2.75x / 3x; status effects are removed after inflicting damage."

Which I'm inclined to believe from the pile of Gokstad corpses I made a few days ago? (Mainly out of disbelief)
Yes, it does. It just does all the damage from that at once.

MAYBE from the way you're doing it, it may be factoring in Heat or Toxin and ignoring the bypass of Slash?
I'd have to double check that, but that seems weird and possibly unintentional if it is.

And I've been playing him on Netracells, and he's been doing trash.

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

Disometric Guard does not require the pillars. His damage output overall does vastly benefit from pillars.

Hell, Wiki says:
"When empowered by Crucible Blast, the Chyrinka Pillar's pulses inherit that ability's explosive chain reaction against irradiated enemies."

It is not specifically the Pillars "empowered" state, but rather that it inherits the chain reaction effect.
In other words, you're hitting EVERY enemy at once with Crucible Blast IF you're hitting a Pillar!

But Crucible Blast is not dependent on it, is it?

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

Some do it in varying degrees, but Status Immunity for the team is not new.

While that is true, Disometric requires one button press for the entire party, and moves with it. The only thing on that list that does that is Covenant. And people aren't gonna bring Harrow just for status resistance.

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

Dante's Overguard simply just exists, it does more than just Status Immunity.

That's why Triumph is the ONLY thing in Dante's kit that can be considered 'Overtuned'. 

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

I'm well aware it's not used for the Slash Damage, but I'm pointing it out because it's functionally very similar...

It's a very bad thing to point to if you're trying to argue it is OP though, because Shuriken is a cripplingly low bar to pass. This is where you lose your perspective. Just because Dark Verse is better than Shuriken, does not mean Dark Verse is too strong, because Shuriken itself is obviously considerably too weak. 

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

Sure, Kullervo can cast his 4 and than use 3 to cause Slash procs in a general area. Absolutely, it's still a DoT.

I was talking about 3-1, but sure, Storm of Ukko. It's not a tag-on DoT, it's a persistent AoE. And with 3, its damage output increases based on the number of targets in it. And unlike Tragedy, when Storm of Ukko kills something, it doesn't go zip. Storm of Ukko stays and continues to do work. You may need to apply the 3, though.

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

Unlike Dante who can radially slash reality apart

You're not doing any damage to anything you haven't primed, which effectively still restricts it to the same frontal cone as Kullervo's 3.

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

Storm of Ukko has a lengthy wind-up animation, making Casting Speed quite needed

Which is also an issue for Dante. Worse, I'd say.

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

But that wasn't my point with Wordwarden. It's not a direct damage upgrade.

No, it's worse. Much worse.

Like incomparably terrible in comparison.

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

It's simply more firepower outright. If enemies are surviving a shot? They're prone to get hit by the next bit.

Whereas most other offensive support abilities just make sure that there is no need for a second hit.

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

Like I said, it's the WEAKEST part of his kit and even in that case it's still arguably really good.
Which begs the question of "what does that spell out for the rest of his kit?"
Overtuned, comes to mind.

Except it's not arguably really good, it's barely functional, extremely niche, and it clashes with Noctua. 

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

Blaze Artillery however- while powerful- need to ramp up once targets don't die in one hit.

So does Tragedy. 

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

... and while Dark Verse is a cone? Tragedy isn't.

Again: Tragedy will do trash damage against anything NOT in Dark Verse's cone.

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

Turrets do 500 Heat Damage, Dark Verse does 1250 Slash Damage.
Heat doesn't pierce armor. Even if you factor outside of each one's Status, Verse just does more.
Assuming ramp-up isn't an issue either way? You'll still invest a good portion of Strength.

Heat strips armour though. And the ramp-up is insanely fast. 

And you'll want high STR for both Protea and Dante, so that's not a notch against Blaze Artillery.

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

In addition, Protea's Turrets have such low duration that they're likely not going to last long enough to ambush enemies.
Though, I blame that on most enemies being slow as hell most days.

As a result, Protea will have to recast often. Not that it's a bad thing, mind you.

But this issue you point out? Is significantly worse on Tragedy.

Protea at least has the option to make the turret's duration relevant, and it also helps the rest of her kit. For Dante, no matter how high you push your DUR, the duration of both Dark Verse and Tragedy is -always- zero seconds. 

You hit what is in front of you at that exact moment, and nothing beyond that. That is a restriction Blaze Artillery is not bound by. That is a notch against Dante, and in favour of Protea. 

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

Energy from Dispensary is nice, but has nothing that Khra Canticle or Xata Invocation can't already do faster.

But Tome mods aren't Dante's, are they? And before you say 'Noctua', Noctua is terrible at Invocations. Grimoire is much better suited for them.

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

Oh. Well, now I feel silly.
Here I thought I was trying to discuss things, but here you are bringing nonsense!

"Overguard is not affected by Damage Reduction from armor or mods such as Adaptation."
Buddy, it's literally the first section of the page: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Overguard

... but for your sake? I'll just pretend I didn't see this.

But your adaptation stacks up from damage to your Overguard, which protects the health bar underneath, allowing you to take hits when your Overguard goes down, and then you heal up when you generate new Overguard, resulting in a frame that is plenty durable.

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

Ah, see-- I know of the 1k Armor Bonus with stripping Enemy Armor.
... because I too avoid his Vortex!

That's quite literally the opposite of saying Vauban is a glorified singularity and that Bastille does not exist, dude.

So either you were being disingenuous before, or you are being disingenuous now. Don't appreciate that.

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

The problem is that when Vortex is an issue? I have to use it anyway if I wanna use Bastille, since they're stapled together.
Thus those bonuses you mentioned are rarely applicable.

How exactly is this an issue? I mean, I get that the ragdoll is annoying and can get some bodies stuck, but that's a very minor concern in my eyes. It just tosses extra CC on the pile and works well with his Flechettes. 

Also, how are these bonuses rarely applicable? I have had zero issue armour-stripping and keeping the bonus up on Vauban...

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

It's a commonly picked Warframe durability.

Yes, and? I've already stated that Triumph can indeed be argued to be a problem.

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

Well, last I checked? He's not inherently bad to play, there are good concepts here.
But he IS overtuned and unless we wanna make a lot of other Warframes hit that inevitable "power crept dumpster bin" faster?
Let's give him some new numbers to work with.

The problem is that you seem to have gotten it into your head that every part of Dante is extremely powerful, and that is shaping your perception. To the point that when I compare him to other frames, you point out flaws that Dante has too. Often Dante's are worse. 

Triumph is incredibly powerful. That's definitely true. Probably the only thing to fully match it is Covenant with OoB-reset, but beyond being a healbot, Dante is unimpressive. The rest of his kit is bog-standard or worse. 

A nerf to the impact that Triumph has on others in the party is the only thing that Dante could survive without immediately being kicked down to low C-tier. His damage output is nothing to write home about, and his utility is non-existent. We've had quite a few very strong Warframe designs lately: Dante isn't one of them. 

In fact, when it comes to design, Dante is notably clunky and unrefined. The selection of abilities for Final Verse is a very poor choice for the innovative control mechanism, Noctua and Wordwarden hate each others' guts, Pageflight fails its purpose, and you're left with a very spammy caster with basically just two things in a kit that's supposed to have seven abilities. 

Honestly, in terms of design quality? Dante's with Limbo. 

And that's not a good thing.

[MouthfulOJoules]

6 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

The Augment absolutely helps, but I run Secondary Encumber myself. (Galvanized Mods love it.)

You can get around the augment by using Holster Reload mods, commonly accessed by the Synth Mod Set.
However, it can get hard to start up if enemies get too tanky. Which is why I try to start it with targets like "Butchers".

But this hardly new information, I've just used it before a lot of the upgrades came along-- so I've gotten the hang of making it work.

My point was more to express that it's large-scale Status Spreading (especially with Secondary Encumber) makes Tragedy hit that much harder.
Yes, it's only Toxin, Heat and Slash-- but there are useful modifiers on there like Viral.
Also, it's just nice to be able to proc things like Radiation or Electric. Gives a tiiiiny bit more breathing room with some targets.

Less "Ocucor wrecks" and more "There are more aspects to account for than just Ocucor".

More like "more aspects to account for than just dante" in that clip.

I assume you have no input on the rest of the message you replied to, pity.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

blahblahblah

That's a whole bunch of wild accusations you just pulled out of your ass there. If you're getting bored of how easy the game is, go play a different game along with the rest of the tryhards.

Besides, I'm not using any of these frames as a crutch. I'm just sick of these bait and switch tactics DE keeps on pulling after people have already put the time or monetary investment into something. Kick rocks, bootlicker!

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No you arent due to this...

Notice the word crossed out? "Powercreep"? That's what I was originally talking about. I shouldn't have agreed to Kit's appeal to definition and again - for that I'm oh so sorry. 🙄 I'm talking about powercreep, not progression. Again - if you're not, talk to someone else.

Edited April 4 by PublikDomain

[vFlitz]

18 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

I mentioned "having the current spread, but spread it across any teammates it affects".

So while Dante (and others) could have insane numbers, it becomes more taxing for him with more entities to affect.
Granted, you could run into a situation like Oberon's Renewal-- but I think safeguards for such should've been in place for that too.

This makes Dante's own defenses more frail if there's more teammates nearby, but... you have teammates nearby. Most likely contributing their own buffs.
But this also gives him some more leeway when it's just him.

Best of both worlds for everyone. Smiles all around.

Yeah, but why though? I can't think of any other support ability that gets this kind of treatment, even ones that are stronger. It also opens up friction potential, because his Overguard does apply to specters as well. Suppose everyone in the team summons a specter and their on call crew and suddenly the ability's getting stretched very thin for reasons outside of the Dante player's control, similar to the Oberon and Nekros anti-synergy. It'd be better and simpler to just have the ability be less effective on allies if we assume that a nerf is warranted and necessary.

26 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

Is that not the point?
"Only people who actually like Dante would be still playing him" seems to insist that it kills him completely.

It might not. It also might. The discussion would be a lot simpler if DE said what they have in mind like they had in Eclipse's case. But it's also kinda besides the point.

No matter the actual extent of the nerfs he gets, the only thing this will accomplish is giving people who like him a sour taste while failing to improve the game's balance in any tangible way. The reasons that were cited as grounds for nerfs are fulfilled by an entire slew of other frames to a more substantial degree. Make a list, go down it, and when the time comes for Dante then so be it - at least then it'd be reasonable. Or if they're somehow fine, then leave him alone because in comparison he is fine as well. I don't really care either way, I'm just on principle against arbitrary and reactionary balance decisions.

34 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

The problem is that you seem to have gotten it into your head that every part of Dante is extremely powerful, and that is shaping your perception. To the point that when I compare him to other frames, you point out flaws that Dante has too. Often Dante's are worse. 

Triumph is incredibly powerful. That's definitely true. Probably the only thing to fully match it is Covenant with OoB-reset, but beyond being a healbot, Dante is unimpressive. The rest of his kit is bog-standard or worse. 

A nerf to the impact that Triumph has on others in the party is the only thing that Dante could survive without immediately being kicked down to low C-tier. His damage output is nothing to write home about, and his utility is non-existent. We've had quite a few very strong Warframe designs lately: Dante isn't one of them. 

In fact, when it comes to design, Dante is notably clunky and unrefined. The selection of abilities for Final Verse is a very poor choice for the innovative control mechanism, Noctua and Wordwarden hate each others' guts, Pageflight fails its purpose, and you're left with a very spammy caster with basically just two things in a kit that's supposed to have seven abilities. 

Honestly, in terms of design quality? Dante's with Limbo. 

Now, while a lot of people oversell him, I think you might be doing a bit of the opposite. The birds are very noticeably successful at distracting dense groups of enemies, and in high density missions enemies do tend to funnel into such groups because of how enemy spawns work. The status vulnerability debuff they provide is also quite potent.

It's true that Noctua and Wordwarden conflict with each other, but even if they didn't Noctua would still ultimately get subsumed off, there's just no way around it unless its the strongest gun in the game. Wordwarden has its uses, it supplies extra procs for CO effects and can proc Archon Stretch.Together with the bird debuff it will kill steel path heavies even if you shoot an unmodded furis at them. It won't be fast, obviously, but it's still more than can be said for a decent chunk of actual weapons.

He also can clear Netracells with no effort whatsoever (which isn't saying much because they're rather easy), but I'm not sure what's your problem with him in there

[Circle_of_Psi]

So it would seem the topics related to Dante got merged? (If so thank god, easier to track now)

Anywho, Patch notes are out! (Here is the quote from the Hotfix itself):

20 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

Dante Balance Changes

In the time that Dante has been available to play, he has quickly become a fan favorite! We recognize how much of a blast it's been to play this quill-wielding Leverian wizard, which is something we have kept at the forefront while determining the following balance changes. These changes are not meant to suspend the fun factor but to maintain our philosophy on why we nerf things in Warframe (automated play, disruptive to squad, or overly dominant). 

After much review and feedback consideration, we recognized that it’s not the damage Dante can deal that needed to be addressed, but rather his accumulation of Overguard. We still believe Dante is in a strong place even with these adjustments, as our goal from the start was never to nerf him into the ground. However, finding balance isn’t found simply in the nerfs, but also in the buffs! So we have also given a little bit of love to Wordwarden and Triumph. 

• Increased Wordwarden’s weapon damage on warded allies from 30% to 50%. 
  • The Wordwarden felt a bit lackluster in comparison to the rest of Dante’s abilities, so we gave it a boost to encourage players to experiment and engage with it more. 
• Final Verse’s “Tragedy” now only affects enemies within Line of Sight.
  • This felt like the most reasonable change to Tragedy since it could be cast back to back without much forethought on positioning. So to make it a more active ability, enemies must now be within range in your Line of Sight to be impacted by it. 
• Reduced the amount of Overguard gained from Final Verse’s “Triumph” from 5000 to 2000 at Max Rank. 
  • For a bit of compensation, we increased Triumph’s base Overguard Regeneration per second from 50 to 100 at Max Rank (can still be modified with Ability Strength). 
• Reduced the amount of Overguard gained from Light Verse from 500 to 250 at Max Rank (can still be modified with Ability Strength). 
• Added Overguard Cap stat to Final Verse’s “Triumph” description to make it clear that there are cases where the cap for Light Verse and Triumph can be different (ex: when using the Precision Intensify Mod). 
• Final Verse’s “Pageflight” no longer applies increased Status Effect Damage to enemies hit by its Paragrimms. 
  • This was an undocumented element of Pageflight, but for the sake of transparency we wanted to inform you of its removal. We believe its removal strikes a better balance and synergy with Status Damage inflicted by Tragedy.
  • NOTE: This is not a removal of the Status Vulnerability added to enemies by Pageflight. We are only removing the unintended additional damage taken from Status Effects. 

You can continue to share your feedback in the dedicated Dante Feedback sub-forum.

General Dante Changes & Fixes: 

• Updated Dante’s Final Verse ability videos to better showcase the custom HUD.
• Made improvements to cast animations for Dante’s Final Verse to allow for smoother Ability chaining. 
• Fixed the Archon Intensify Mod triggering upon casts of Dante’s Light Verse regardless if players were actually healed. Now Light Verse will only trigger Archon Intensify if Health is restored. 
• Fixed Tome skins being upside down when equipped on Noctua.
• Fixed Dante Specter casting Final Verse interfering with the player's custom Dante HUD that displays which Verses are active. 
• Fixed several crashes caused by shooting an enemy with Dante’s Noctua while riding Kaithe or K-Drive. 
• Fixed being unable to shoot weapons after casting Fractured Blast (infused onto Dante via Helminth) at the end of Final Verse’s “Triumph”. 
• Fixed bug where Melee weapon would briefly appear at the end of each of Dante’s ability casts if it was equipped in hand. 

________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So it seems that Dante wasn't hit with too much of a nerf, since they have also buffed some other things in compensation! So let's address what got hit:

it seems that his Overgaurd has been hit the most with one of the Nerfs reducing the amount of Overguard gained from Final Verse’s “Triumph” from 5000 to 2000 (Dante lost 3000 OG) at Max Rank, this seems quite a bit of a hit but it still can be modified with Ability Strength so that's still good (I have no idea what the final OG max is, since I'm not good at maths with high PS, so I'd leave that to the smarties)

While this is quite a heavy-handed nerf to OG, I can see why and I saw this coming a mile away, I knew that they'd reduce or put a bigger Cap on his OG, so this isn't a total loss and 2000 at Max is still quite a lot and remember, Dante can recast this at any time to refill his OG when it goes down.

Another thing I noticed is that they added LoS to his Final Verse’s “Tragedy” which makes perfect sense to stop you from nuking rooms left to right and most (if not all) frames have had the same treatment.

 

As for the buffs, a bump in the base Overguard Regeneration per second from 50 to 100 at Max Rank is very nice and the Increased Wordwarden’s weapon damage on warded allies from 30% to 50% is also quite nice to have!

 

So overall I don't think this is much of a hit, what do the rest of you think?

 

 

-Psi

[Dunkelheit]

vor 20 Stunden schrieb Ace-Bounty-Hunter:

Nice argument, Senator. But why don't you back that up with a source?

(You most likely: 👇)

 

So? That doesn't automatically make it okay for DE to pull a bait and switch tactic like this. Stop being a bootlicker.

Come on mate, are we really lowering ourselves in a debate like that? I think you are smarter than that. Honest to god: I don't know any Warframe player EVER who bought a normal Warframe for 300+++ plat. And I know a lot of guys and play the game since the beginning. There might be some, I did not ask the specific question to everyone, but everyone I talked about thought that it is ridiculous since Warframe are so easy to farm.

 

Come on mate 2: Why lowering yourself with words like "bootlicker"? "You can notice an intellectual fool when he refrains to perjoratives instead of wisdom". So, following up on your argument.... do you have prove that DE really pulled a bait and switch? Or did you make it up this time? Because stuff being release too strong has happened in nearly every video game at all times. IF they would have pulled a bait and switch, they would not have corrected it a couple of days after release. They would have let it open for some time. Otherwise it makes no sense.

vor 20 Stunden schrieb Hexerin:

Bastille (vortex mode) -> Photon Strike

Bastille's vortex pulls everything in (if you place it well, which can be difficult in some tiles), and then Photon Strike vaporizes everything within the vortex. This is only possible due to Photon Strike having multiple scalings, however (it scales on its own like any ability, but then it also gets multiplicatively boosted based on enemy level with no upper limit).

I don't really play Vauban, but even mine (likely horribly built) is capable of doing this.

Molecular Prime -> Antimatter Drop

Everything within a 30m sphere (that ignores terrain and other obstacles) is 'sploded. Requires building for it though, which leaves Nova herself squishy, so it's not free. My own Nova is built Tankova, so my AD doesn't take out eximus and certain other extremely durable targets. Instagibs 90% of stuff though, and anything that lives is critically wounded (thus easy to mop up with my Felarx).

I think if you play with a Dante and try to get the most kills, you will lose bigtime. This is what it is all about. I know that they can kill everything, but it takes a while to set it up. Thanks for the explanation though, appreciate it.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

2 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

I don't know any Warframe player EVER who bought a normal Warframe for 300+++ plat. And I know a lot of guys and play the game since the beginning.

I asked you for your sources to back up your claims and all you've given me is conjecture. Thanks for proving my point. 

7 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

Because stuff being release too strong has happened in nearly every video game at all times.

It's still not a good look when people have already made an investment into these things only to have them gutted later. Especially when there are other far more "disruptive" frames that are being left unchecked.

[JimothyStevens]

10 hours ago, Corvid said:

In other words, you don't have an answer.

Which is to be expected, because you're trying to reconcile a belief with a reality that does not support it.

Sure thing buddy.

[Arvindal]

12 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

So it would seem the topics related to Dante got merged? (If so thank god, easier to track now)

Anywho, Patch notes are out! (Here is the quote from the Hotfix itself):

________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So it seems that Dante wasn't hit with too much of a nerf, since they have also buffed some other things in compensation! So let's address what got hit:

it seems that his Overgaurd has been hit the most with one of the Nerfs reducing the amount of Overguard gained from Final Verse’s “Triumph” from 5000 to 2000 (Dante lost 3000 OG) at Max Rank, this seems quite a bit of a hit but it still can be modified with Ability Strength so that's still good (I have no idea what the final OG max is, since I'm not good at maths with high PS, so I'd leave that to the smarties)

While this is quite a heavy-handed nerf to OG, I can see why and I saw this coming a mile away, I knew that they'd reduce or put a bigger Cap on his OG, so this isn't a total loss and 2000 at Max is still quite a lot and remember, Dante can recast this at any time to refill his OG when it goes down.

Another thing I noticed is that they added LoS to his Final Verse’s “Tragedy” which makes perfect sense to stop you from nuking rooms left to right and most (if not all) frames have had the same treatment.

 

As for the buffs, a bump in the base Overguard Regeneration per second from 50 to 100 at Max Rank is very nice and the Increased Wordwarden’s weapon damage on warded allies from 30% to 50% is also quite nice to have!

 

So overall I don't think this is much of a hit, what do the rest of you think?

 

 

-Psi

You can theoretically argue that it was deserved, but saying that it's not much of a hit is a joke. It guts his dps and survivability. Nerfed Dante is incredibly energy hungry Kullervo with less damage and less AOE. 

[OneOmniverse]

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

It's not healthy to have a knee-jeek so strong it's knocking your own teeth out. Maybe actually read the history lesson I posted for you and you might calm down

Like I said I don’t need a history lesson and it’s not knocking anyone’s teeth out and don’t tell me to calm down I’m perfectly fine.

[Dunkelheit]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Ace-Bounty-Hunter:

I asked you for your sources to back up your claims and all you've given me is conjecture. Thanks for proving my point.

I think discussion means for you to be right, not to get it right. You know that this is a stupid argument. There is no way to prove it, because I have no access to the data. I have some anecdotal evidence which I myself admitted that it is not the best evidence. Does it matter though? People who buy the frame in the first week are not buying it, because it does 50k Overguard, they buy it, because they want to play the frame right away instead of farming it. And I highly doubt that many people do that.
Btw, I asked you for prove that DE pulled a bait-and-switch and you did not prove it either.

A bait-and-switch that is withdrawn after a couple of days is a ridiculous accusation and you know it.

Anyway, since discussion with self-righteous people like you is neither fun nor intriguing, I sign myself out. Have fun with your conspiracy theories regarding DE who are not allowed to make a mistake that they are taking back very soon and want to pull platinum from the market by making them purpously too strong for a couple of days.

[OneOmniverse]

1 hour ago, vFlitz said:

In about a month when the shiny new luster wears off people would have gone back to their Wukongs or Thermal Sunder Titanias for quick missions and whatever it is that they prefer from the selection of frames that apparently have DE's blessing to be blatantly overpowered for endurance. Only people who actually like Dante would be still playing him.

Pretty much once new isn’t new people will go back to what they really liked before they always do so I expect numbers for him to drop a lot as with any other new frame that gets the nerf treatment so soon after release 

[(PSN)TheSodaGuy_0119]

Seriously. Line of sight? Cmon. Nobody else really cares about the over guard nerf, but the line of sight nerf on Tragedy? Nobody likes that. Did the complete opposite of making him balanced by instead shooting him in the gutter.