Instantly Knowing Where The Demolisher is Kinda Kills Disruption

[CrownOfShadows]

3 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Your complaint itself is borne of you not reading, so the irony of this response is amusing. They explicitly stated that the indicator would show up once a player hears the beeping from the Demolisher, there's no room for confusion there.

Also, consider for a moment that not everyone plays the game the same way as you do. You clearly play in squads (whether public lobbies, or with friends), but many people tend towards solo play. I am one of those who tends towards solo play, especially in modes where dead weight randoms will cause a mission to take significantly longer than it needs to.

So taking the viewpoint of solo play into consideration, re-read my response. While solo, I don't have other bodies that will find the Demolisher, so the marker serving as an "automatic waypoint from a teammate" would be useless.

I read your OP, and I responded to what you are complaining about. I simply disagree with your stance that the way the marker is implemented is bad.

You actually didn't respond, you went on your own tangent, but you finally did address the issue here.

I play solo more than I play in groups for your information, disruption included. This is not a good change.

Does it make things pathetically easy? Sure. If that's your jam, good for you I guess. Not everyone likes being in a baby crib.

[Hexerin]

4 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

You actually didn't respond, you went on your own tangent, but you finally did address the issue here.

I play solo more than I play in groups for your information, disruption included. This is not a good change.

Does it make things pathetically easy? Sure. If that's your jam, good for you I guess. Not everyone likes being in a baby crib.

So yea, you simply aren't looking for any discussion or responses from those with differing opinions. You just want to rant, and are hoping for people to echo your sentiments for personal validation.

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, Hexerin said:

So yea, you simply aren't looking for any discussion or responses from those with differing opinions. You just want to rant, and are hoping for people to echo your sentiments for personal validation.

Funny, that's the same vibe I got off you. One of us is selfish and one of cares about the game. I'll let you figure out which is which.

[PollexMessier]

44 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Funny, that's the same vibe I got off you. One of us is selfish and one of cares about the game. I'll let you figure out which is which.

Let's not devolve into personal insults.

But, as someone who's long since put that user on my ignore list, It's better to just not interact with them at all.

[Circle_of_Psi]

12 hours ago, Hobie-wan said:

I know they already answered, but if there are are vehicles or a generator nearby running off internal combustion engines, then there technically are nearby explosions IRL.

Ture but I was worried for a moment

Like, what are you doing to cause explosions IRL. Cars, Gens, Fireworks

 

Are you a Grinner?

[Circle_of_Psi]

12 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Yes, something like a Geiger counter could work fine. I would not personally hook it up like that to the mini map but I'm not the game dev.

Ah alright, the only reason why I suggested a min-map hook, was to help players guide to the "possible" spot but now that I think about it, it sorta still plays in the factor of "it's here" rather than looking yourself 

12 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

We already even have this basic system in warframe - it's our mining. When we're out mining, we have the audio cue that tells us when you're close and in the right direction and it gets louder when we get closer, but we also have HUD elements to show the same thing. More rock icons pop up as they enter detection range, but it doesn't point us directly at them. It doesn't directly mark them for us. You have to go find them. It's a guidance mechanism, it's the not longitude and latitude of the thing. (not the cleanest example motivationally but as far as tech goes it's pretty spot on).

Ah right, I forgot about the mining icons (I've not mined for a while), something like this would be great, not too sure how DE will inject such into the game, since IIRC, you have to aim down sight to "track" but no one is a Dev here so it'll be up to them.

Hooking into your suggestion, it could just be something pre-added onto the HUD during that game mode once the key is slotted in and it functions exactly as you said it does, however, I'm curious to think if we'll have to pull out our Scanner (whatever version we have) and track it that way similar to pulling out the Mining Tool, yes that does mean we'll have to disarm our-selfs to go find the target but I think that could play into the factor you mentioned in the OP (tension, suspense, exploration - even a little danger).

Since it'll add tension since you have no idea where it is and sorta like the Alien Geiger Counter, you have to keep your scanner out while looking for it, of course adds a little bit of danger to it since you have to put away a weapon while you scan (Sure, you can have a buddy come with you to defend you and you still have powers), this will also add back the exploration, not sure about suspense, but I suppose the suspense could be tied to if the player finds it in time or not, before BOOM.

Quote

As mentioned in the OP, I originally was under the impression that they were simply auto-marking the demolisher across the team once it was found so players didn't have to struggle to waypoint it, and I'm fine with that - seems like a perfectly fine QoL, it's just an improvement to how it works now where it's blocked by being too far away (whereas waypoints aren't).

Fair enough

I'd be down if it was just auto-marking the demolisher across the team once it was found, rather than a perm-market, I didn't pay too much attention to the dev stream only saw what the patch notes said, so that's why I was a bit unsure at first, since DE LOVE to make things bluntly clear for folks who need that sorta thing, so my bad on that.

[TARINunit9]

19 hours ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

The demolisher is supposed to flash red from time to time and stay marked when in view, maybe they'll fix that in a patch.

It's actually working as intended now. The new design is: when the Demolyst or Necramech spawns, you get an objective marker for it for about 3 seconds, and then it fades away for about 5 seconds. Once you get close enough the objective marker becomes permanent (this part was in the old design too)

Most players don't know about the "fades" part, because we can usually nuke the Demolyst down before its marker has a chance to fade

[Raarsi]

3 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I play solo more than I play in groups for your information, disruption included.

Thank you for confirming this as a "you" problem.

As someone with Sensory Processing Disorder who constantly hears everything at the same volume both with and without "soundproof" headphones on, I thoroughly welcome this change.

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 1 hora, TARINunit9 dijo:

It's actually working as intended now. The new design is: when the Demolyst or Necramech spawns, you get an objective marker for it for about 3 seconds, and then it fades away for about 5 seconds. Once you get close enough the objective marker becomes permanent (this part was in the old design too)

Most players don't know about the "fades" part, because we can usually nuke the Demolyst down before its marker has a chance to fade

I thought it would be a little faster, having the marker appear for 0.5 seconds in 3 or 4 second intervals.

[CrownOfShadows]

On 2024-03-31 at 11:03 AM, Raarsi said:

Thank you for confirming this as a "you" problem.

As someone with Sensory Processing Disorder who constantly hears everything at the same volume both with and without "soundproof" headphones on, I thoroughly welcome this change.

What is this like the 12th time now I've had to say that the VISUAL FEEDBACK IS GOOD but you don't need to change the game mode to have visual feedback.

Screw it, ima edit the OP now,.

[(PSN)rexis12]

Again the game mode hasn't changed, it just has a visual cue now alongside the audio cue. 

 

[SneakyErvin]

I tested it today on an old tile and it practically works like it has always done with the exception that you get a clear visual indicator when you get close enough to where the sound gives it away aswell. I tested it on the Sedna mission since it allows for close and far spawns and the initial indicator only shows when it spawns within a range of roughly two rooms.

Under the old system the only difference was that you had too constantly look at the minimap instead, since it showed an arrow on it, which was bugged to hell and back several times over. It sometimes didnt show at all and other times it showed the demo location long before you got close, at times directly when it spawned miles away. Plus sometime it required you to turn a certain way in order to be able to see it, otherwise it ended up out of bounds or similar.

So the only thing that has really changed is that they improved accessibility and fixed some bugs. You can now look at the screen where the combat occurs instead of tracking a minimal arrow on the minimap while trying to also keep track on what happens on the screen.

[SpiritTeA]

I’ve finally started to enjoy disruptions now, tunning aimlessly around the map trying to hear some beeping was far from engaging or fun gameplay. 

 

It didn’t make disruption easier at all, if you know where demo is but can’t deal damage to it - you can’t deal with it.  It’s still gear check, but now at least search for demolitionist is less *annoying* thing. 

[CrownOfShadows]

6 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Again the game mode hasn't changed, it just has a visual cue now alongside the audio cue.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

So the only thing that has really changed is that they improved accessibility and fixed some bugs. You can now look at the screen where the combat occurs instead of tracking a minimal arrow on the minimap while trying to also keep track on what happens on the screen.

Before: players had to test several paths and listen for the demolisher. When thought they found it, they went further down that path to go confirm it. Even then, due to some quirks of architecture and sound carrying through tile sets you were never really sure until you actually saw it.

Now: players activate a conduit and know exactly where the demolisher is and they just run to it to kill it.

(NOTE: I still haven't tested on some maps, but I will, and every single one I have tested so far this is the case, so even if on some maps this isn't the default situation like Sedna, it still sure as snot is on most all of them. Olympus, probably the most played disruption of all time has instantaneous demolisher identification, and some of those spawn REALLY far away)

So now please explain the twisted logic you guys are using to try to gaslight us into believing that nothing has changed, because this is 110% a change! How is this not a change!??!!? The arrow indicator was used by nobody that I know for the reasons you said. Everyone relied on sound. That's the entire point of this change, trying to fix it so players don't have to rely on it. THEY RELIED ON IT. If players didn't rely on it, then why tf are we changing it?! Of course we relied on it.

And the sound experience is VASTLY different than the visual experience. You should not need proof of this, everyone knows it's the truth, but if you do, just look at SpiritTea's comment just now:

1 hour ago, SpiritTeA said:

I’ve finally started to enjoy disruptions now, tunning aimlessly around the map trying to hear some beeping was far from engaging or fun gameplay.

It didn’t make disruption easier at all, if you know where demo is but can’t deal damage to it - you can’t deal with it.  It’s still gear check, but now at least search for demolitionist is less *annoying* thing. 

Are you calling SpiritTea a liar?

It is a very different experience playing it now. It is a fundamental shift.

Edited March 31 by CrownOfShadows
grammar

[Tsukinoki]

I've tested this change in a wide variety of maps and it really hasn't changed anything for the negative.

The red marker only appears if you're within auditory range of the pings.  If you're too far away and wouldn't hear the pings?  No marker.  So it's only useful if you're within 1-2 rooms of the demolyst.
It just makes finding it a tiny bit more reliable and better for people that have a harder time hearing the pings.

You still have to choose the right path to go down to see the marker.  If you go the wrong direction guess what happens: You don't know where the demolyst is coming from until too late!
Just like how it was in the old system!

So you still have to guess the right direction to know where the demolyst spawns from so you can find it quicker.  It's just more reliable.

Part of the issue is that the new map on Deimos has the demolyst spawn so close that it's instantly marked.  Which is more an issue of that map than of the change itself.

33 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Before: players had to test several paths and listen for the demolisher. When thought they found it, they went further down that path to go confirm it. Even then, due to some quirks of architecture and sound carrying through tile sets you were never really sure until you actually saw it.

Now: players activate a conduit and know exactly where the demolisher is and they just run to it to kill it.

Except that is not the case!

You still need to be in auditory range to see the marker appear.  If the demolyst is too far away you won't get a marker at all.

So guess what happens if you test the wrong path?  You don't get a marker until the demolyst is practically inside the tile housing the conduit.

[CrownOfShadows]

On 2024-03-31 at 8:39 PM, Tsukinoki said:

I've tested this change in a wide variety of maps and it really hasn't changed anything for the negative.

The red marker only appears if you're within auditory range of the pings.  If you're too far away and wouldn't hear the pings?  No marker.  So it's only useful if you're within 1-2 rooms of the demolyst.
It just makes finding it a tiny bit more reliable and better for people that have a harder time hearing the pings.

You still have to choose the right path to go down to see the marker.  If you go the wrong direction guess what happens: You don't know where the demolyst is coming from until too late!
Just like how it was in the old system!

So you still have to guess the right direction to know where the demolyst spawns from so you can find it quicker.  It's just more reliable.

Part of the issue is that the new map on Deimos has the demolyst spawn so close that it's instantly marked.  Which is more an issue of that map than of the change itself.

Except that is not the case!

You still need to be in auditory range to see the marker appear.  If the demolyst is too far away you won't get a marker at all.

So guess what happens if you test the wrong path?  You don't get a marker until the demolyst is practically inside the tile housing the conduit.

Ok a few things here:

1. Define "auditory range". (Not all of us have impressive sound systems turned up to the max, some of us are just on computers. Not all of us mute all other sounds)
2. The audio works fundamentally different because it starts low and gets louder. There is no visual alignment with this mechanic, it just marks it instantly. This is not what I would call "a tiny bit" of a discrepancy.
3. Compounding with the above issue, there are other audio things happening which (intentional or not) further obscure sounds especially when they are low volume. The visuals have no such additional layer of obscuration.
4. Further, the audio is not directional, it's proximal. Meaning you can hear the sound but you don't know exactly what direction it's coming from. This is not the case with the visuals where you know with absolute certainty the exact direction (and also the exact precise location of it, which is another thing sound cannot tell you).
5. Even further, for whatever reason the audio will often be blocked or significantly muted by doors or certain architecture, making it harder to find. Searching for it often involved opening doors to allow sound through or going down hallways or tunnels. Visuals suffer no such issues.
6. I'm aware of the design issues on Armatus and have previously commented on them.

 

I'm back after testing on Sedna specifically. It's the exact same problem there.

You only have to either wait 5 seconds or move 5 meters (basically just jump once) to know where the demolisher is (if you don't instantly know), exactly as I stated in the OP. Previously you had to very often go all the way out into various tiles to find it.

Edited March 31 by CrownOfShadows

[(PSN)rexis12]

1 hour ago, CrownOfShadows said:

gaslight

God you are really trying to make this as some major game changing deal, when it's just adding a visual cue to the already existing auditory cue. 

It doesn't make it too easy, especially when we SEE how people who are already good at Disruptions can just zoom down a corridor the second they hear the first beep and kill the Demolishers the second the sound cue is on. 

1 hour ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Are you calling SpiritTea a liar?

What ARE you on about? 

It's literally him having issues with the auditory cue, solved by now having a visual cue that makes it easier for him. 

Any one who's already good at Disruption, and doesn't have hearing issues, in SpiritTea's situation would've zoomed down the corridor with the beeping he's struggling to hear but they can already pin point. 

I really don't understand you trying to use someone who's glad that there's now a visual cue can play the game easier due to having issues with the auditory cue, as some major 'Gotcha!' To the change of Disruption, when all its showing that the changes are quite literally made to help people who have trouble with the audio portion of Disruption. 

Again

On 2024-03-31 at 1:45 AM, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Nah. 

Sorry that I'm not a fan if sweaty, try hard gameplay, where I have to strain my ears that, for most of my life, has had actual issues in determining sound direction in addition to having bad audio equipment limiting my gameplay. 

 

[CrownOfShadows]

1 minute ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

God you are really trying to make this as some major game changing deal, when it's just adding a visual cue to the already existing auditory cue. 

It doesn't make it too easy, especially when we SEE how people who are already good at Disruptions can just zoom down a corridor the second they hear the first beep and kill the Demolishers the second the sound cue is on. 

What ARE you on about? 

It's literally him having issues with the auditory cue, solved by now having a visual cue that makes it easier for him. 

Any one who's already good at Disruption, and doesn't have hearing issues, in SpiritTea's situation would've zoomed down the corridor with the beeping he's struggling to hear but they can already pin point. 

I really don't understand you trying to use someone who's glad that there's now a visual cue can play the game easier due to having issues with the auditory cue, as some major 'Gotcha!' To the change of Disruption, when all its showing that the changes are quite literally made to help people who have trouble with the audio portion of Disruption. 

Again

 

 

It's not "just adding a visual cue". If you'd actually read anything you would understand that. Try taking a glance over all the differences between the two I just listed. "Just adding a visual cue" would be any of the suggestions I offered on page 2.

You guys are pretending nothing has changed while SpiritTea & others are like 'thank god i I don't have to search anymore', that's the point.

Disruption isn't 'sweaty' or 'tryhard', this is tone deaf (gigapun). You can play disruption at enemy level 15.

[SpiritTeA]

You’re just trying to compare warm and soft @CrownOfShadows. In past I had to aimlessly running through corridors (that also makes me feel cartographic degeneration even after over 2000 hours) untill the Demolitionist appear on map aswell. Because I had problems with this beeping, and add to this, understanding where this beeping comes from, especially on map like Kuva fortress with multiple floors. Other people had no problems with it for different reasons, but it was problem for me. 

Change hasn’t made disruptions “easier” it made it more “accessible”. Accessible doesn’t mean easy.

[CrownOfShadows]

1 minute ago, SpiritTeA said:

You’re just trying to compare warm and soft @CrownOfShadows. In past I had to aimlessly running through corridors (that also makes me feel cartographic degeneration even after over 2000 hours) untill the Demolitionist appear on map aswell. Because I had problems with this beeping, and add to this, understanding where this beeping comes from, especially on map like Kuva fortress with multiple floors. Other people had no problems with it for different reasons, but it was problem for me. 

Change hasn’t made disruptions “easier” it made it more “accessible”. Accessible doesn’t mean easy.

You no longer have to search. True or false?

[rahetalius4.2.0CE]

2 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Ok a few things here:

1. Define "auditory range". (Not all of us have impressive sound systems turned up to the max, some of us are just on computers. Not all of us mute all other sounds)
2. The audio works fundamentally different because it starts low and gets louder. There is no visual alignment with this mechanic, it just marks it instantly. This is not what I would call "a tiny bit" of a discrepancy.
3. Compounding with the above issue, there are other audio things happening which (intentional or not) further obscure sounds especially when they are low volume. The visuals have no such additional layer of obscuration.
4. Further, the audio is not directional, it's proximal. Meaning you can hear the sound but you don't know exactly what direction it's coming from. This is not the case with the visuals where you know with absolute certainty the exact direction (and also the exact precise location of it, which is another thing sound cannot tell you).
5. Even further, for whatever reason the audio will often be blocked or significantly muted by doors or certain architecture, making it harder to find. Searching for it often involved opening doors to allow sound through or going down hallways or tunnels. Visuals suffer no such issues.
6. I'm aware of the design issues on Armatus and have previously commented on them.

Hello, I am back again, again, as a person who doesn't have hearing issues myself and did fine with this mode in the past, I decided to actually go in on a large tileset mission to test these, and I decided to test the range of audio and visual cue, and I've discovered, that you can hear the demo before the visual cue even pops up, so people who are playing with hearing still have somewhat of an 'advantage' that isn't lost with the marker (and the marker likes to flicker in and out of existence when you're right on the edge of their 'marker range' even if you're still well within hearing range, I can provide video of this if requested, but this is something that can easily be tested if you turn your music off.)

This is easily noticable on larger tilesets where the demo's spawn much further away, such as the ones one jupiter.

Anywho, what I said at the start still applies, however I just wanted to comment again, because I feel you're being rude and misinterpreting things.

Edited March 31 by rahetalius4.2.0CE
added the Jupiter mention

[SpiritTeA]

16 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

You no longer have to search. True or false?

False, I still have to guess the direction on older bigger maps. I am not getting instant marker on big maps, I still have to search for a right direction, but at least now instead of unnoticeable sound clue I have visual marker on my screen.

Edited March 31 by SpiritTeA

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, SpiritTeA said:

False, I still have to search the direction on older maps. I am not getting instant marker on bigger maps, I still have to search for a direction, but at least now instead of sound clue I have visual marker on my screen.

Go play it and be honest and then come back. Your descriptor "on older maps" is suspect. Keep in mind the comment I made about 'one jump' 5-10m.

[SpiritTeA]

5 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Go play it and be honest and then come back. Your descriptor "on older maps" is suspect. Keep in mind the comment I made about 'one jump' 5-10m.

I did play some, Lua, Kuva Fortress, Mars and ofc the new one. Regarding “old” means every that isn’t new Albrecht’s lab tileset, because it’s new with enemy spawning in the next room. 

On old maps it was nothing like on new one, I still had to aim in right direction, sometimes demolitionist spawns closer, sometimes further, sometimes when Acolyte appears I can miss on any demolitionist markers at all untill it room away from me. 

 

[rahetalius4.2.0CE]

20 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

You no longer have to search. True or false?

False

2 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Go play it and be honest and then come back. Your descriptor "on older maps" is suspect. Keep in mind the comment I made about 'one jump' 5-10m.

How about you go and play it, and be honest with yourself that it doesn't "automatically mark" as soon as you press the button, hell it doesn't even keep them marked once you find them, the marker vanishes as soon as you leave the audio range if you don't spot it