Dante and LoS Issues and next steps

[NexNavarus]

As someone who has been playing since open beta I'm not gonna lie, Dante's Torment ability seemed insanely huge.

However, this tweak/nerf whatever you want to call it feels overboard. Especially for a frame that's been out for barely a week. I don't recall ever seeing something get steamrolled this hard before. 

My personal suggestion. Remove the Los check. Make the range of Torment maybe 75% of what is currently is. 

See if this is enough to temper the frame

[Sarulas]

26 minutes ago, Mayhem-Ivory said:

Let me just explain for a moment what you did with Dante and his Tragedy:

You know tose weapons that can be placed in locations and detonated later? Things like the Penta, Castanas, Talons, or most recently the Aegrit. You throw them into places or onto enemies, and then you press a button and they go boom.

All these weapons are already not good; more appropriate to say, they are all bad (even the Aegrit after the ammo nerf).

Now, imagine if these weapons required Line of Sight and had a maximum range as well while we're at it. Imagine they had a timer, and you'd just lose the grenade along with the ammo you spend if you dont trigger them within a few seconds while looking at them. Suddenly they would feel pretty awful; you couldn't even move through a curved hallway without them being deactivated automatically.

Thats what you did to Dante. He tags enemies - and he is supposed to be able to move around and tag a lot of groups - but now if he is in the wrong place, its impossible for him to detonate the tagged enemies.

It's not fun. I had fun, now I don't. That is why I'm upset. The way you guys went about it just makes me disappointed.

YES. 10000% THIS.

LoS was NEVER going to be a good solution.

[ShaloomHD]

1 minute ago, StarkillerHDX said:

I've just read a great idea on a Reddit thread about Tragedy, by Cross66. I think it would be a fantastic compromise. Apologies if it has already been mentioned here.

Keep the LoS restrictions that Dante has now, but, enemies specifically hit by Dark Verse get "marked", either for a few seconds or indefinitely, doesn't matter. Marked enemies will be hit by Tragedy regardless of whether they're in LoS (but within range of course). That way, the Dark Verse and Tragedy combo stays consistent and reliable, but makes Dante unable to mindlessly nuke low level maps with Tragedy without even looking at anything.

No cuz thats saying dante shouldnt be allowed to nuke low level maps but all the other frames that can... can still do it 

[Zooloo-the-Raven]

26 minutes ago, Zeow31 said:

OK ... So, you say that brainless speed nuking is bad and when I point out that there is so much worse nukers out there you answer is ... "But I don't use her tho'" ?

You do realize you're not the only one playing this game, right ? ESO has been an AFK farm for years no matter what you bring because there will always be a Saryn in there.

Edit :

I'm not making emotionally charged demands, I demand consistency. Nerfing Dante like they did within a week after a decade of Saryn dominance makes it pretty clear who's the favourite kid here. Pretending this hotfix does anything for balance is like saying me recycling offsets the pollution of the nearby Asbestos mill.

I'm reading this post and I think we're talking past each other, because at a glance, I don't know why what you're saying has anything to do with the points I've made in this thread. If you were trying to communicate a clear point, asking me to delete a frame isn't a super helpful introduction to your half of the conversation.

Anyways, I'll use this space to constructively make my original, abstract point. I advocate for nerfs to massive, line-of-site free nuking in general. If we're forced to look at the enemies we kill, then more elements of the game matter. We lessen the likelihood that a player will run into an uninteresting mission if and when they play coop, and in general, we can find more paths to challenge that isn't simply scaling to levelcap in steel path circuit or void cascade--things I already do because they don't take an entire evening.

[Vazumongr]

22 minutes ago, Melonbro53 said:

Dante isn't a "one-button-nuke" he takes time to set up his nuke fully, like casting page flight(3 casts), then two dark verses, then tragedy. That is 6 ability casts. Other nuke frames only need 2-3 casts for their nuke, and half of those go through walls. Dante was over nerfed and people are rightly mad about it. 

Page flight is a 45s duration buff. Dante's nuke is spamming 3 with an occasional 4.

[ShaloomHD]

2 minutes ago, Vazumongr said:

Page flight is a 45s duration buff. Dante's nuke is spamming 3 with an occasional 4.

yeah if you playing low end missions lol 3 not kill nothing fast at high end 

Edited April 5 by ShaloomHD

[Voltage]

You're changes look good on paper Pablo, but fundamentally, Line of Sight has always felt bad, because there are so many AoE options that simply don't have it. It's like the old discussion on self damage. You could aim well with it so you didn't die, or you could just use a weapon that didn't self damage. This is how Line of Sight has always felt in Warframe.

I worry that there will be a differing performance of Line of Sight between platforms, or worse, some goofy meta like using a Synthesis Scanner before casting to "render" enemies to get better Line of Sight checks.

I rather just see Line of Sight removed and properly addressing the AoE skills that have become a dominant, disruptive and corrosive playstyle with no consequence for several years. I know there is an entire generation of Tenno brought up on this gameplay, but so much Dante feedback is just "Well Saryn nukes, so why nerf Dante". That's a justified piece of feedback when there are no consequence nukers in the game. Nerfing the newest one just feels weird given how encouraged players are to already play this way.

Melee received justified changes over the years with Follow Through, removing geometric punch through, limiting range by removing percentage-based increases., etc. I think it's time abilities and primary AoE receive the same nature of changes. AoE has always been favored in Warframe, but it's completely overshadowed anything that is not. Spreading damage across 10, 20, or 50 meters should never be magnitudes deadlier compared to high damage in a smaller range or to a single enemy.

[HyperKessi26004]

Please guys, just make Tragedy normal AoE. The solution is just that simple.

Edited April 5 by HyperKessi26004

[Iedarus]

50 minutes ago, Halo said:

Quick Hot Take: 

Nerf Saryn, your pride and joy, then
Nerf Frost then
Nerf Mag harder then
Nerf Harrow then
Nerf Equinox then
Nerf Caliban then
Nerf Khora then
Nerf Hydroid then
Nerf Baruuk then
Nerf Gauss then
Nerf Trinity then
Nerf Ember then
Nerf Styanax harder then
Nerf Lavos then
Nerf Limbo then
Nerf Mirage HARDER then
Nerf Loki then (you won't even look at him since it's "past his time" anyway)
Nerf Protea then (an upcoming prime)
Nerf Garuda then

You wanna go full scorched earth? Then do it already, because this is where it's leading to. 

I can go on forever at this rate, but these frames will be affected by such, and that isn't everyone, and if this does really occur, we're living in a goddamn crappy reality...

Not like they can make Oberon's Reckoning any worse. LOL

FR though how can Megan say Oberon is one of her favorites and not even acknowledge the novella of issues in his kit? DE has just been so tone-deaf and it ticks me off to no end because I've seen similar behavior with the devs in FFXIV: "Oh we're listening! We love our players! By the way let's gut all the jobs to make them Fisher Price levels of braindead because surely our audience would enjoy not having to play a game while playing a game!"

I'm so sick of it. We're paying companies to give us content yet we're constantly being belittled because of some bogus "vision."

[LOKIME]

4 hours ago, [DE]Pablo said:

-snip-

My guy, I know you're probably too busy to read or care about 1 random dude over the internet... but hear me out... Overguard is NOT a good thing for the game's health. At least not in its current state. We have Overguard... Overshields.... Shields... Shield gating... Armor.... Health... and 5 revives per mission (in most cases)... HUH?...  

I honestly believe that this system should be changed into something more meaningful as in the current state it makes lots of abilities, sometimes entire warframe's kits, obsolete. Yes, Crowd Control was OP back in the day for high level content where damaging abilities couldn't OHKO all the mobs in a 50m radius. Didn't matter if mobs where level 1 or level 99999. But now it's basically useless.

Why would I use a Nyx/Limbo/Loki or any other CC warframe/ability at low level missions where enemies just... die... Why would I use a Nyx/Limbo/Loki or any other CC warframe/ability at High level archimedeam elite netracell etc etc  missions where my abilities will at most work against 50% of mobs in best case scenarios, that are "Still" weak enough to die in one or two hits?

I think CC has become so irrelevant, that it doesn't matter anymore if you ever use a warframe that gives that type of support in the battlefield, because most gamers would rather use nukes, spamming them radial damages. "Best CC is dead" much?

 

This other more popular dude explains it a lot better. 

 

[Vazumongr]

2 minutes ago, ShaloomHD said:

yeah if you playing low end missions lol 3 not kill nothing fast at high end 

That's why you spam 3 with the occasional 4... 3 applies bleed, 4 consumes all existing bleed (and heat and toxin) stacks to do a single burst of damage with a scalar. Hence why I said, "Dante's nuke is spamming 3 with an occasional 4."

[Fosgatt]

The only frame I had to do the new game mode today was Dante... This whole nerf is awful, I feel legit robbed.

I was barely able to do it, but bottom dps, and only helping my team with the little OG I could give, and praying for the Phantasma Prime to do some damage.

Can't believe you guys are going to go into the weekend leaving Dante neutered like this. Imagine going through the whole design process, and making something everyone is having fun with, a huge success in any way you look at it. Everyone is playing him, and talking about it. Huge hype... and then within a week, you guys decide to kill it. Community is in uproar. Tremendous resentment all around.

The minimum would be releasing a patch reverting these changes completely and later (maybe months) after collecting proper data and metrics, maybe do subtle changes to him..

 

[LordOfKenpo]

17 minutes ago, Zooloo-the-Raven said:

I'm reading this post and I think we're talking past each other, because at a glance, I don't know why what you're saying has anything to do with the points I've made in this thread. If you were trying to communicate a clear point, asking me to delete a frame isn't a super helpful introduction to your half of the conversation.

Anyways, I'll use this space to constructively make my original, abstract point. I advocate for nerfs to massive, line-of-site free nuking in general. If we're forced to look at the enemies we kill, then more elements of the game matter. We lessen the likelihood that a player will run into an uninteresting mission if and when they play coop, and in general, we can find more paths to challenge that isn't simply scaling to levelcap in steel path circuit or void cascade--things I already do because they don't take an entire evening.

The issue is that at level that matters, there was a soft LOS since you had to prime enemies with either Dark verse or a weapon first, then you use Tragedy to detonate those statuses. At low levels there is no real reason to stop this as almost any frame can nuke at low level and at high levels there was already that soft LOS requirement so it wasn't really a non-LOS nuke.

[ShaloomHD]

2 minutes ago, Vazumongr said:

That's why you spam 3 with the occasional 4... 3 applies bleed, 4 consumes all existing bleed (and heat and toxin) stacks to do a single burst of damage with a scalar. Hence why I said, "Dante's nuke is spamming 3 with an occasional 4."

occasional yeah okay high end levels you occasional press 4 lol behave 334 repeat low levels is 33 or press 4 

Edited April 5 by ShaloomHD

[noveltycat]

Please just revert the LOS change. Even improving on it, there still remains the fact that the very maps in this game are not conductive to LOS abilities - there's constantly too much garbage in the way.

This game has come a long way from its beginning, when having stealth and cover were (to my understanding) more important - but many of the maps still reflect this. Forget walls - using an ability and missing enemies because there are a few stupid crates in the way sucks.

If you were worried about Dante being to strong, tweaking the range or damage numbers a bit would have been a more reasonable response - particularly considering he's only been out for week you guys, c'mon!!! You cannot judge how something new will affect the meta long term when most people have, due to build times, only had a few days to test it.

[LordOfKenpo]

2 minutes ago, Fosgatt said:

The only frame I had to do the new game mode today was Dante... This whole nerf is awful, I feel legit robbed.

I was barely able to do it, but bottom dps, and only helping my team with the little OG I could give, and praying for the Phantasma Prime to do some damage.

Can't believe you guys are going to go into the weekend leaving Dante neutered like this. Imagine going through the whole design process, and making something everyone is having fun with, a huge success in any way you look at it. Everyone is playing him, and talking about it. Huge hype... and then within a week, you guys decide to kill it. Community is in uproar. Tremendous resentment all around.

The minimum would be releasing a patch reverting these changes completely and later (maybe months) after collecting proper data and metrics, maybe do subtle changes to him..

 

What I'm seeing is that they need to change their KPIs (key performance indicators) since lots of people playing a new frame should be treated as a success. Especially since they gave us a fun frame. Instead they seem to view this as a failure which is sad and makes me question their leadership's understanding of business.

[Zeow31]

il y a 1 minute, Zooloo-the-Raven a dit :

I'm reading this post and I think we're talking past each other, because at a glance, I don't know why what you're saying has anything to do with the points I've made in this thread. If you were trying to communicate a clear point, asking me to delete a frame isn't a super helpful introduction to your half of the conversation.

Anyways, I'll use this space to constructively make my original, abstract point. I advocate for nerfs to massive, line-of-site free nuking in general. If we're forced to look at the enemies we kill, then more elements of the game matter. We lessen the likelihood that a player will run into an uninteresting mission if and when they play coop, and in general, we can find more paths to challenge that isn't simply scaling to levelcap in steel path circuit or void cascade--things I already do because they don't take an entire evening.

And all those points are great in a vacuum but they exist in a setting where they've given up on ever balancing the strongest massive, line-of-sight free nuking in the game.

Me saying " delete Saryn " was an hyperbolic way of pointing out that all the nerfing in the world will never achieve balance nor challenge as long as she exists in her current state.
You're not lessening the chances of an uninteresting mission, all this does is concentrating those players unto a more restrictive selection of frames.
You might like to use less powerful frames but no worries, a Saryn, Gauss or Styanax will drop in to make sure you don't have to think about the game while playing anyways.

The problem with meta is that you might not follow it but most will at which point you either get to suck or join the fold.

Play solo then, that should work, right ? Except, this creates a dilemma for the devs : either balance your challenge around the meta which will most likely gatekeep folks like you self-limiting or don't, at which point a vast majority of the playerbase will adopt it to breeze through your supposed challenge.
 

Meta has been a plague on online games as long as they have existed and DE's habit of killing anything that could at least add some variety to it doesn't fix anything, it just lets things get stale.

My anger at Dante's nerf emerges from this, nerfing hasn't added anymore balance to the game, it just means that I'll keep going to the same frame I've been for years any time things get tense for my Titania.

[ShaloomHD]

5 minutes ago, noveltycat said:

Please just revert the LOS change. Even improving on it, there still remains the fact that the very maps in this game are not conductive to LOS abilities - there's constantly too much garbage in the way.

This game has come a long way from its beginning, when having stealth and cover were (to my understanding) more important - but many of the maps still reflect this. Forget walls - using an ability and missing enemies because there are a few stupid crates in the way sucks.

If you were worried about Dante being to strong, tweaking the range or damage numbers a bit would have been a more reasonable response - particularly considering he's only been out for week you guys, c'mon!!! You cannot judge how something new will affect the meta long term when most people have, due to build times, only had a few days to test it.

tweaking is damage is not reasonable response neither is range is 4 does nothing without is 3 that is already LOS and nerfing is damage is like saying nerf all other frames that do nice damage also they said the damage was not an issue.. it seems strong cuz its slash... slash is strong full stop

Edited April 5 by ShaloomHD

[Twisted_Wisdom]

1 hour ago, SomeDepressedPotato said:

 DE: >launch really nice frame that almost everyone loved 
>lie that the nerfs are only going to be "slight" "tweaks"
>nerf said frame to the ground within the first 8 days of launch
>get feedback from the vast majority of players saying said nerf is completely unnecessary who also pointed out the *actual* issues that need to be solved
>lol who cares here's a band-aid "fix" that goes over everything everyone said
>ignore
>cycle continues  

Come on DE, this game and this community are like a second home to me. I've interacted with some of the nicest people in this game. This game helped me relax when I went through some real messed up sh*t. But this level of disingenuity from the devs is taking away my will to run this game anymore. Pls, listen to what we are saying. We love this game and we know you do too. I wouldn't be typing this stuff if it happened once or twice but we have seen plenty of such things happen unfortunately.

 

Same.
Unfortunately DE keep gaslighting us.
LoS is here to stay and its going to be used further as i understand what's been said about it from Pablo.
Warframe is slowly dying and DE has the knife in their own hand. Its nerf after nerf after nerf ad infinitum.
Dante was balanced and fun to play when he was born, the 'tiny tweak' we were told would happen was actually the drop of a guillotine instead.
And this after DE Rebecca said Dante was well-balanced.
For a long while now a running joke with DE about the ever-present nerf hammer, which isn't actually funny.
Most of my clan and alliance stopped playing Warframe a while back but i stuck with it because its my favourite game of all time.
Am going to miss the Warframe i came to love. Its been a large part of my life for several years now. I even got to LR4.
Can't trust Devs that lie to us, because liars don't stop lying, all the while we support them by funding Warframe.
There are no words for how disappointed I am with Warframe now.  :(

[Iedarus]

19 minutes ago, Fosgatt said:

The only frame I had to do the new game mode today was Dante... This whole nerf is awful, I feel legit robbed.

I was barely able to do it, but bottom dps, and only helping my team with the little OG I could give, and praying for the Phantasma Prime to do some damage.

Can't believe you guys are going to go into the weekend leaving Dante neutered like this. Imagine going through the whole design process, and making something everyone is having fun with, a huge success in any way you look at it. Everyone is playing him, and talking about it. Huge hype... and then within a week, you guys decide to kill it. Community is in uproar. Tremendous resentment all around.

The minimum would be releasing a patch reverting these changes completely and later (maybe months) after collecting proper data and metrics, maybe do subtle changes to him..

 

I remember raising an eyebrow at one comment on my "Radiation Toxin build" post saying to be careful because DE will nerf anything that threatens the meta. Now I'm really understanding what they meant. It took them so long to finally remove the WuBramma crap and other meta builds have remained untouchable. Why bother with your Phantasma Prime? Just use Laetum and ctrl alt del every Acolyte in the game.

REALLY hoping for some consistency to finally happen. I initially rationalized this change as "Oh well Saryn is all about those deeps and Dante has a lot of group support" only to remember Helminth exists and that most Saryn mains nowadays replace Molt with Gloom. I remembered that support frames aren't even required anymore because every frame can now be self sufficient.

DE seems to be dead set on one meta where only a handful of frames are in the cool kids club and the rest are given wedgies and shoved in lockers,

Edited April 5 by Iedarus

[Rawbeard]

4 hours ago, Vazumongr said:

I guess I'm in the minority when I say I am in favor of LoS checks and believe that mindless one-button-nukes in a 30m+ radius are bad for the overall health of the game in majority of cases. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

it's a 3 button nuke in Dante's case.

[BR31]

FOV messes up with the los check.

[Rawbeard]

4 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

That's a good change.
Don't listen to people asking for a revert, if they want AoE nuke across walls, they don't actually want to play the game.

my brother in christ, have you actually played Dante? you have to play the game for him to do anything. now only his buffs are worth using, meaning you don't actually have to play the game as much as before. 

[Zomiku]

2 hours ago, CoffeeSorcerer69 said:

@[DE]Pablo @[DE]Rebecca @[DE]Megan You guys have 62 pages and counting worth of feedback, and 90% of it is asking you guys to revert the changes to Dante.

@[DE]Pablo @[DE]Rebecca @[DE]Megan  Can someone please explain to us your philosophy and vision to justify the need for this "minor tweak"? Other Tenno here have provided plenty of reasons why it is detrimental in terms of enjoyability, game mechanics, and Dante's theme.

Maybe if you actually speak to players and describe your point of view, you could lower the tension, and perhaps most people would agree with your constructive argumentation?!

1 hour ago, Mayhem-Ivory said:

This is a joke. It's nice of you fix the line of sight system, but that's not what anybody wants for Dante. It needs to go completely.

Your "reasoning" for adding it was nonsense to begin with:

• Could be cast back to back without much forethought on positioning

This is wrong. Just straight objectively incorrect. What you would actually do is use his Dark Verse against different groups of enemies in different locations, then seek out a point where you can detonate them all with Tragedy. That is because Tragedy is expensive, and you want to cast it as little as possible!

• to make it a more active ability, enemies must now be within range in your line of sight

Again, objectively incorrect. You don't even understand the consequences of this change. The result now is that, rather than thinking and using it tactically, you get forced to use Tragedy in every single group of enemies. Just because you need to cast it more often, doesnt mean the ability is "more active"; its just brainless spam.

The problem isn't a nerf or fumbled LoS; the problem is he's no longer fun the way he was before, because his entire "tag for destruction" playstyle is gone!

And P.S. "more active ability" doesnt exist. This combination of words doesnt mean anything. An ability can be pro-active, which the old Tragedy was (like Gauss Mach Crush augment), it can be inter-active, which the old Tragedy was (and the old Eclipse); but being active just means that you use it.

I'd also like to mention in addition to the quoted message that such complicated actions for a game where we have really powerful nuking frames (or simply using firearms) is not just unnecessary, but also contrary to the game's core mechanics, don't you think so? It not only adds unnecessary complexity but also undermines the very philosophy of the game, which is centered around fluidity and impactful gameplay.

[mc_polo_on_pc]

Remove LoS and instead do the following:

• Cut the range of the ability by 50-75% if you are concerned about room nuking
• Decrease the damage output of tragedy by 25-50% if you were concerned about room nuking
• Combination of the 2 former points but the number are now 10-35% instead
• Induce a hard cooldown (ex: 45 second hard cooldown before next tragedy cast) that is unaffected by duration or efficiency.

And to be honest, there are other frames that LoS would make useless. So if the team is hard-pressed on keeping it, too prideful to admit messing up, or other reasonings, go back and do a PTS on LoS id possible. Clearly it isn't ready and seems to be untested. Public relations going to need some hard recovery after this.

As it stands Dante has be relegated from usage and he was only out for 1 week. Again, 1 week. Reason behind relegation is DE needs to figure out how they want to adjust him without haphazardly adjusting him. Also I may not play new frames if this is the picture DE want's to paint with changes.

Edited April 5 by mc_polo_on_pc