Aight, if overguard is made to make all CC useless, let's extend it to abilities in general

[Aruquae]

The amount of times I mention overguard (for eximus in particular) making ANY CC reliant frame's life miserable is always met with "Just shoot them"
Alright, completely fair and valid, I do shoot them, and they die. It's nice

But then I look at damage frames... and realized just how severely punished CC frames are compared to them

DE talking about how they don't want to nuke rooms, understandable... so why do you keep on indirectly buffing nukers? 
Why not make overguard (for eximus in particular) immune to ALL types of abilities? That'll even out the playing field, CC frames can't CC, that makes the eximus a priority. Nuke frames won't be able to nuke the entire room along with eximus, which also makes them more of a primary target that you can kill with your weapons. 

I am ready for the large amounts of "Bad take" 

Edit 2: Adding more clarity, I’m not talking about reverting the overguard nerfs against CC, I’m talking about making Eximus overguard immune to damage abilities. This way it makes it even among the frames and less targeting/punishing towards CC frames. 

Edited April 8 by Aruquae
Edit: Added some clarity that I'm referring to eximus overguard

[Zakkhar]

12 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Why not make overguard immune to ALL types of abilities?

We already have the mechanic. It is called Arbitration Drone. Also capture targets.

13 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

That'll even out the playing field, CC frames can't CC

You can cc everything else that is not overguarded eeximus. If you do not also nuke evertything the eximus will not even spawn. But you people alwyas have to nuke, CC-able enemies die and Eximus spawn and you go pikachuface.jpg.

[RLanzinger]

😤 : Read the manual dammit !

=> Crowd Control That Overguard Will Not Ignore

1. Cold procs (up to 4 stacks)
2. Grendel's Pulverize will always ragdoll
3. Loki's Switch Teleport but will not make enemy disoriented upon teleport
4. Effects that Taunt or have increased Threat Level (Loki's Decoy / Nyx's Chaos / Octavia's Mallet and Resonator / Titania's Razorwing'sRazorflies)

=> Dax enemies (Dax Arcus, Dax Equitem, Dax Gladius, Dax Herald, and Dax Malleus) can suffer a forced knockdown that Overguard does not stop.

=> Note that non-CC effects (e.g. damage, armor/shield removal) of these abilities will still apply to enemies with active Overguard.

🤣 : Applying CRITICAL CHANCE +600% and CRITICAL DAMAGE +300% to @Aruquae

[Aruquae]

4 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

Read the manual dammit !

 

5 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

We already have the mechanic. It is called Arbitration Drone. Also capture targets.

Those are only limited to their respected mode, it would be cool to have something like this outside of arbitration/capture

 

5 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

You can cc everything else that is not overguarded eeximus. If you do not also nuke evertything the eximus will not even spawn. But you people alwyas have to nuke, CC-able enemies die and Eximus spawn and you go pikachuface.jpg.

Yes, you can CC everything that's not Eximus, you can also (ability) nuke everything INCLUDING eximus
Might as well make eximus a top priority and Nullifier part 2! (But without the buggy shield drone)

 

[Zakkhar]

Just now, Aruquae said:

Yes, you can CC everything that's not Eximus, you can also (ability) nuke everything INCLUDING eximus
Might as well make eximus a top priority and Nullifier part 2! (But without the buggy shield drone)

If you nuke everything constantly, more and more eximus will keep spawning. If you cc everything and refrain from nuking you control the whole map. Plenty of mission modes do not revolve around nuking whole map, yet for some reason every team I was with with playing hard cc, still chooses to nuke the map anyways, because reasons. This is why we cant have nice things.

[Aruquae]

7 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

• Cold procs (up to 4 stacks)
• Grendel's Pulverize will always ragdoll
• Loki's Switch Teleport but will not make enemy disoriented upon teleport
• Effects that Taunt or have increased Threat Level (Loki's Decoy / Nyx's Chaos / Octavia's Mallet and Resonator / Titania's Razorwing'sRazorflies)

Counterargument! These are outliers
An example of an ability like Loki's one is Garuda's first, which knocks down enemies, but can't do it because it counts as "CC"
Grendel's Pulverize is lore accurate! He makes all of the enemies shiver

Cold Procs are not abilities! And thus shouldn't be considered ability CC (as that's the topic)
Taunt... dang, you got me

9 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

Dax enemies (Dax Arcus, Dax Equitem, Dax Gladius, Dax Herald, and Dax Malleus) can suffer a forced knockdown that Overguard does not stop.

These are not eximus, but instead special enemy units only found in certain mission nodes. Also, ability CC, not general

1 minute ago, Zakkhar said:

If you nuke everything constantly, more and more eximus will keep spawning. If you cc everything and refrain from nuking you control the whole map. Plenty of mission modes do not revolve around nuking whole map, yet for some reason every team I was with with playing hard cc, still chooses to nuke the map anyways, because reasons. This is why we cant have nice things.

A shame, they probably spotted a single guardian eximus and decided all life must die

 

[Tiltskillet]

On 2024-04-05 at 10:52 PM, RLanzinger said:

😤 : Read the manual dammit !

=> Crowd Control That Overguard Will Not Ignore

Grendel's Pulverize will always ragdoll

Doesn't work through Overguard.

On 2024-04-05 at 10:52 PM, RLanzinger said:

Note that non-CC effects (e.g. damage, armor/shield removal) of these abilities will still apply to enemies with active Overguard.

Oh, I wish that were true.

 

On 2024-04-05 at 11:02 PM, Aruquae said:

Cold Procs are not abilities! And thus shouldn't be considered ability CC (as that's the topic)

Sure, but DE's rules extend to things that aren't abilities.    Cold procs are an exception because DE said they would be, though even then with a special limit of 4.

[Aruquae]

1 minute ago, Tiltskillet said:

Sure, but DE's rules extend to things that aren't abilities.    Cold procs are an exception because DE said they would be, though even then with a special limit of 4.

I can see that, I was just specifying ability damage/CC rather than CC as a whole
Their are others, but those were besides the topic at hand
Unless we include Frost, but they fixed his CC affecting eximus

[Traumtulpe]

20 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

Note that non-CC effects (e.g. damage, armor/shield removal) of these abilities will still apply to enemies with active Overguard.

This is incorrect, for example Garuda's Dread Mirror cannot be cast on overguard at all - you get an error; Invalid Target. So Overguard blocks the damage, the mobility, the shield, everything.

[RLanzinger]

To @Aruquae,

btw Frost abilities can add cold damage and cold proc IE Frost abilities, make enemies Slower than himself, ARE A CC. You are wrong once,

You ask about Overguard (i title) not Eximus, Dax units HAVE Overguard. You are wrong twice,

Also extended an Overguard to stop abilities exist, it's called a Nullifier. 🤣  ... upon a times.

[Yousho]

21 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

If you nuke everything constantly, more and more eximus will keep spawning. If you cc everything and refrain from nuking you control the whole map. Plenty of mission modes do not revolve around nuking whole map, yet for some reason every team I was with with playing hard cc, still chooses to nuke the map anyways, because reasons. This is why we cant have nice things.

I think this is largely nonsense.

If you simply keep the entire map CC'd you get no additional loot, affinity or focus. And if you keep nuking, sure more Eximus units spawns which you can also nuke for more loot, affinity and focus.

Saying "We can't have nice things" because people choose the play-style which is both easier and yields more material rewards is a very strange take.

[Aruquae]

5 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

btw Frost abilities can add cold damage and cold proc IE Frost abilities, make enemies Slower than himself, ARE A CC. You are wrong once,

The basis of "ability CC" can be traced to actual ability CC, not a proc

For example, this type of CC isn't exclusive to Frost (or just warframes for that matter), considering it's a proc. Procs are beside the matter, i'm just saying Eximus should also be able to counter ALL abilities. 

7 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

ou ask about Overguard (i title) not Eximus, Dax units HAVE Overguard. You are wrong twice,

That is true! I will edit my post to make this more specific. Thank you for the clarification

 

7 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

Also extended an Overguard to stop abilities exist, it's called a Nullifier. 🤣  ... upon a times.

Screw nullifiers, their buggy bubbles are more of an annoyance than a priority

[quxier]

29 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

If you do not also nuke evertything the eximus will not even spawn. But you people alwyas have to nuke, CC-able enemies die and Eximus spawn and you go pikachuface.jpg.

If you are playing low level non steel path then there won't be many eximus. Late in game there are so many that you just have to kill.

23 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Might as well make (...) Nullifier part 2! (But without the buggy shield drone)

NO! NO! Don't mention that name.

30 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

😤 : Read the manual dammit !

=> Crowd Control That Overguard Will Not Ignore

1. Cold procs (up to 4 stacks)
2. Grendel's Pulverize will always ragdoll
3. Loki's Switch Teleport but will not make enemy disoriented upon teleport
4. Effects that Taunt or have increased Threat Level (Loki's Decoy / Nyx's Chaos / Octavia's Mallet and Resonator / Titania's Razorwing'sRazorflies)

@Aruquae

That's........... a lot!

18 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

32 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

Note that non-CC effects (e.g. armor/shield removal) of these abilities will still apply to enemies with active Overguard.

Oh, I wish that were true.

Hahah, really, armor/shield strip works. But who cares if you still have to strip enemy from Overguard as well.

 

[Tiltskillet]

10 minutes ago, quxier said:

Hahah, really, armor/shield strip works. But who cares if you still have to strip enemy from Overguard as well.

"e.g." means "for example" not, "these and only these".   There are other non-CC effects attached to CC abilities that don't work through overguard.  e.g., Condemn shield restore, Breach Surge's spark propagation, Petrify resistance reduction, Containment Walls damage vulnerability, and more. There are even a few non-CC effects that don't work even though they're not attached to an ability with CC at all like Pacify's damage reduction debuff and Prowl's pickpocketing.

(And  armor strip through overguard is still extremely valuable on Eximus units with lots of armor.  High level overguard disappears lightning fast compared to high level armored health.)

[quxier]

4 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

29 minutes ago, quxier said:

Hahah, really, armor/shield strip works. But who cares if you still have to strip enemy from Overguard as well.

"e.g." means "for example" not, "these and only these".   There are other non-CC effects attached to CC abilities that don't work through overguard.  e.g., Condemn shield restore, Breach Surge's spark propagation, Petrify resistance reduction, Containment Walls damage vulnerability, and more. There are even a few non-CC effects that don't work even though they're not attached to an ability with CC at all like Pacify's damage reduction debuff and Prowl's pickpocketing.

AAAAAAAnd? I'm not sure why you mention this.

5 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

(And  armor strip through overguard is still extremely valuable on Eximus units with lots of armor.  High level overguard disappears lightning fast compared to high level armored health.)

Yeah, sure, you are already spending "too much time" on Overguard the method of dealing with enemy is not so important. Before I deal with Overguard, enemy have viral & heat already (for example). When I armor strip normal enemies, they dies quickly. So in this case method is important.

[ominumi]

What DE needs to do is to make it so Overguard is totally immune to ALL warframe abilities. Even damage abilities. Or add a damage component to CC abilities.

[Aruquae]

1 minute ago, ominumi said:

What DE needs to do is to make it so Overguard is totally immune to ALL warframe abilities. Even damage abilities. Or add a damage component to CC abilities.

Thank you for summing up my entire post 

This is exactly what my post entailed, if DE's feeling extra daring, we can make them immune to damage bonus abilities too

[Tiltskillet]

11 minutes ago, quxier said:

AAAAAAAnd? I'm not sure why you mention this.

You seemed to be saying "Wrong, armor strip works."  I was explaining that I wasn't talking about armor strip. 

 

[ominumi]

14 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Thank you for summing up my entire post 

This is exactly what my post entailed, if DE's feeling extra daring, we can make them immune to damage bonus abilities too

Well maybe total immunity is going too far. 90% damage reduction with overguard would be better. Got to make it so Mesa players have to spend 2 minutes shooting Eximus units.

[UnstarPrime]

I'm going to oversimplify for the sake of brevity, but I do think there's been some inequity for awhile that has in ways crept us closer to a "self-buff meta".  Abilities that CC don't work on boss units nor overguard.  Abilities that debuff often don't work on boss units nor overguard.  So if you want your frame's abilities to consistently work, broadly speaking it's best to focus not on abilities that affect enemies, but on abilities that affect you.  Because if my abilities can't reduce my opponents' offense, then in response I'll increase my own defense.  And if I can't reduce my opponent's defense, then I'll instead increase my own offense.  It reduces the possibility space.

This is in no way to say that abilities can't effectively do things to enemies.  Naturally damage is damage, and there are some effects like armor-stripping that broadly work outside of a handful of exceptions.

But while effective, simply making numbers bigger is one of the least interesting types of abilities.  So many of the more compelling and creative options fall under the umbrella of doing weird things to your enemy: pulling and pushing enemies, slow motion, confusion, tethering, drowning, etc.  And it's not just CC either; it's so interesting that Banshee can make weak points to shoot on enemies, and it's such a bummer that it doesn't work on the better half of the enemies you'd want to use it on.  And similarly, it's the enemies most worth CC-ing that are generally entirely immune to it, which all the more encourages big numbers that simply kill.

I don't have a specific solution in mind, but I would like it if broadly speaking it felt like there was more worth doing to enemies than stripping defenses and damage.

[Aruquae]

1 hour ago, ominumi said:

Well maybe total immunity is going too far. 90% damage reduction with overguard would be better. Got to make it so Mesa players have to spend 2 minutes shooting Eximus units.

Fair

[FiveN9ne]

I'd say i agree and comparison to a Nullifier is the most valid.

Nullifier is one of the only units in the game that is dealt with equally regardless of what frame you wield or type of build you have.

Overguard shouldn't be like that (since there are Overguard granting buffs) but Eximus units should.

There is no reason why a CC frame needs to use guns while a nuke frame can just nuke it like any other unit.

It should be seen and presented as having the same threat level and dealt with the same way regardless of setup, just like a Nullifer.

Edited April 6 by FiveN9ne

[ominumi]

1 hour ago, Aruquae said:

Fair

Hmm.. maybe overguard should reduce the CC duration instead of being completely immune. Or having stacking diminishing return.

[0_The_F00l]

So basically have overguard do the same things as a skin tight nullifier bubble ?

Edited April 6 by 0_The_F00l

[Aruquae]

8 hours ago, ominumi said:

Hmm.. maybe overguard should reduce the CC duration instead of being completely immune. Or having stacking diminishing return.

I'm liking this idea better

Make it twice as much work, but not downright useless

8 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

So basically have overguard do the same things as a skin tight nullifier bubble ?

Precisely