Frost overguard

[Shady_Tenno]

Frost's Icy Avalance augment needs some love.

Even a build with 338 strength, assuming you hit 20 enemies every single time (which in actual missions, is not always the case), you still get only 3756 overguard. That means that you have to press your 4, at least 13-14 times to reach the max overguard. This is ridiculous for a frame with such low energy. Maintaining overguard for both you and your team, is hard when steel path enemies, can just look at you and that 3756 overguard is gone. That 60 base overguard needs to be buffed to at least 120 per enemy. It still won't be on the same level at Dante or even Styanax, but will at least be easier to maintain.

Edited April 18 by Shady_Tenno

[Rathalio]

The thing is though, having huge amount of overguard is near useless. Since overguard doesn't have access to any kind of damage reduction, it's flat out crystal armor that will get destroyed very fast starting early steel path. The interest is only to get access to status immunity and an additional layer of gating and what matters is how easily you can refresh it. The amount of overguard you can have would in theory only matter at low level content, but at the same time in this content, overguard isn't at all making a difference, enemies already struggle hard to get your shield and health down anyways.

[_GoodLuck_]

I personally use Arcane Steadfast + Nourish with Zenurik. Helps a lot. However, the augment needs some improvements. I'd add some kind of a percentage based value. E.g 120 OG + 1% of OG cap for each enemy

[Chewarette]

36 minutes ago, Rathalio said:

The thing is though, having huge amount of overguard is near useless. Since overguard doesn't have access to any kind of damage reduction, it's flat out crystal armor that will get destroyed very fast starting early steel path.

Quote

Overguard is not affected by Damage Reduction from armor, mods such as  Adaptation, or abilities such as  Splinter Storm. However, abilities or effects with Damage Redirection, such as  Link,  Warding Halo, or  Shield of Shadows will apply their effect to Overguard. Overguard does not block debuffs such as Damage Vulnerability or shield/armor removal.

 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Shady_Tenno:

Frost's Icy Avalance augment needs some love.

Even a build with 338 strength, assuming you hit 20 enemies every single time (which in actual missions, is not always the case), you still get only 3756 overguard. That means that you have to press your 4, at least 13-14 times to reach the max overguard. This is ridiculous for a frame with such low energy. Maintaining overguard for both you and your team, is hard when steel path enemies, can just look at you and that 3756 overguard is gone. That 60 base overguard needs to be buffed to at least 120 per enemy. It still won't be on the same level at Dante or even Styanax, but will at least be easier to maintain.

Unfortunately, frost is a lousy warframe at the moment. no one needs something like that. And he's also as slow as an ancient grandpa from the Stone Age.
I've played with Frost for almost 2 years and know his problems far too well...

[vixenpixel]

Yeah like previous people said the actual strength of overguard is the 0.5 second "shield-gate" that happens when your overguard is drained by damage taken. So if you want to make Frost tanky, what you actually do is put efficiency on him. Since you only need 170ish strength to armor strip with his 4, there's no point in putting more on him for any reason. But that's great news, that means you can put alot into other things. He needs range above all else. My Frost is an actual beast.

4 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

Unfortunately, frost is a lousy warframe at the moment. no one needs something like that. And he's also as slow as an ancient grandpa from the Stone Age.
I've played with Frost for almost 2 years and know his problems far too well...

XD okay buddy

His 2 first abilities are lousy indeed. They arn't good at all and he is definitely completely in the hands of his augments, but with them he is very strong. Do I wish that he had some of those augments baked into his kit? Yes definitely. His passive is useless. His 1-2 are terrible. But his 4 is amazing and his 3 is useful. Built and played right, he is unkillable.

Edited April 18 by vixenpixel

[RLanzinger]

Not for Frost,

Unlike most warframe, FROST does not need duration as Frost Bubble is no duration and all others are instant abilities.

➕ So when do a build by sacrificing Duration and rising Efficiency, you can speed spawn his abilities.

➖ Only downside with Frost are : his animations take a hell of time to be casted in sequence (but they are so c🤩l).

I hate SP 'cause it's boring but inside Archon's hunt you can maintain Overshield for the whole team thanks to the spawn rates...

To @Venus-Venera : Frost slowness is not a flaw, it's a Feature :

He is the embodiment of Slowness, his abilities make enemies slower than himself...

that's what "True C🧊🧊Lness" is 🤣

[S074]

2 hours ago, _GoodLuck_ said:

I personally use Arcane Steadfast + Nourish with Zenurik. Helps a lot.

I agree, Arcane Steadfast is the way to go. I think it's more efficient for him than Energize is by virtue of his rather small mana pool.

1 hour ago, Venus-Venera said:

He's also as slow as an ancient grandpa from the Stone Age.

One Tau for casting speed and Mobilize solved that for me. Don't sleep on Mobilize: you may end up loving it and become unable to live without it on any of your frames.

Edited April 18 by S074

[Venus-Venera]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb S074:

I agree, Arcane Steadfast is the way to go. I think it's more efficient for him than Energize is by virtue of his rather small mana pool.

One Tau for casting speed and Mobilize solved that for me. Don't sleep on Mobilize: you may end up loving it and becume unable to live without it on any of your frames.

you mean shard for bullet jump? that's never enough... just compare with speed run warframes like wukong/titania/gauss/volt etc...

Personally, I don't want to spend every mission pointlessly chasing after others

[Rathalio]

2 hours ago, Chewarette said:

 

Ok, 3 random warframes that don't have access to overguard can still manage to get damage reduction on it. It doesn't change anything from what I said x)

Also that really sounds like an oversight. When DE implemented overguard for warframes, they made it clear that is was supposed to not be affected by any kind of damage reduction. And anyways even with that niche thing in game rn, you don't build thinking "oh I need more value on my overguard because I'm maybe playing with a Trinity, Nezha or Nekros with shield of shadows".

[BoochieKatt]

1 hour ago, vixenpixel said:

Yeah like previous people said the actual strength of overguard is the 0.5 second "shield-gate" that happens when your overguard is drained by damage taken. So if you want to make Frost tanky, what you actually do is put efficiency on him. Since you only need 170ish strength to armor strip with his 4, there's no point in putting more on him for any reason. But that's great news, that means you can put alot into other things. He needs range above all else. My Frost is an actual beast.

XD okay buddy

His 2 first abilities are lousy indeed. They arn't good at all and he is definitely completely in the hands of his augments, but with them he is very strong. Do I wish that he had some of those augments baked into his kit? Yes definitely. His passive is useless. His 1-2 are terrible. But his 4 is amazing and his 3 is useful. Built and played right, he is unkillable.

Their point still stands he is still a lousy frame with two not so great abilities and he NEEDS two augments in order to be good he’s like hildryn but ever so slightly worse because they’re both armor strip bots 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Rathalio:

Ok, 3 random warframes that don't have access to overguard can still manage to get damage reduction on it. It doesn't change anything from what I said x)

Also that really sounds like an oversight. When DE implemented overguard for warframes, they made it clear that is was supposed to not be affected by any kind of damage reduction. And anyways even with that niche thing in game rn, you don't build thinking "oh I need more value on my overguard because I'm maybe playing with a Trinity, Nezha or Nekros with shield of shadows".

However, Nekros is almost immortal and definitely doesn't need any trash like Overguard...

[vixenpixel]

1 hour ago, BoochieKatt said:

Their point still stands he is still a lousy frame with two not so great abilities and he NEEDS two augments in order to be good he’s like hildryn but ever so slightly worse because they’re both armor strip bots 

Na Hildryn is way worse. Hildryn is actually a useless frame since her best ability is better on any other frame. She isnt even the best railjack pilot or the best hijack battery, where she indeed could have some use based on her massive shield. 

[Chewarette]

1 hour ago, Rathalio said:

Ok, 3 random warframes that don't have access to overguard can still manage to get damage reduction on it. It doesn't change anything from what I said x)

Also that really sounds like an oversight. When DE implemented overguard for warframes, they made it clear that is was supposed to not be affected by any kind of damage reduction. And anyways even with that niche thing in game rn, you don't build thinking "oh I need more value on my overguard because I'm maybe playing with a Trinity, Nezha or Nekros with shield of shadows".

Sorry I posted a bit in a hurry, it was not meant to contradict anything you said. Just a complementary information in case someone is not aware (I wasn't until I looked it up hehe), there are some situational buffs that apply on it

[vixenpixel]

Frost has 2 bad abilities so that means he has 2 good ones. Its not like iold inaros with 4 crap abilities or hydroid with just one good or hildryn which is seriously the current worst frame in the game. 

I play frost all the time. He is a beast. Does he need a rework? Yeah of course he does. He should be in the queue right now waiting until they have reworked Hildryn.

I think they should combine his 1 and 2 since they are virtually the same ability. Give him a new one. Something like a frigid aura that exudes from him to proc cold. A buff that increases the lethality of his other abilities and make enemies die from frostbite at a certain health threshold. 

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Rathalio said:

Also that really sounds like an oversight. When DE implemented overguard for warframes, they made it clear that is was supposed to not be affected by any kind of damage reduction.

To wit:

Although there are a couple of other DR effects that work, that are more easily accessible: dodge  and Ancient Healer specter aura.  Rolling Guard and puncture proc damage debuffs also work, although DE may not (and IMO probably shouldn't) consider these DR.

Weapon block doesn't work.  I haven't tested Eclipse since it was reworked, but it didn't apply before that.  Still have never tested Null Star.  Now that Dante specters are a thing, I should do that, as well as some other stuff that doesn't normally apply on frames that can generate their own overguard outside of Duviri.

[Rathalio]

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

To wit:

Although there are a couple of other DR effects that work, that are more easily accessible: dodge  and Ancient Healer specter aura.  Rolling Guard and puncture proc damage debuffs also work, although DE may not (and IMO probably shouldn't) consider these DR.

Weapon block doesn't work.  I haven't tested Eclipse since it was reworked, but it didn't apply before that.  Still have never tested Null Star.  Now that Dante specters are a thing, I should do that, as well as some other stuff that doesn't normally apply on frames that can generate their own overguard outside of Duviri.

I mean it makes sense that puncture procs work since they are applied on the enemy as a debuff so the damages are reduced before you get hit and overguard can be taken in consideration. For ancient healer it's hard to say if it's intended or not, it's quite a specific thing and hardly game breaking anyways. Also I think we can see a pattern with warding halo, link and shield of shadows, all these abilities do not simply reduce the incoming damage. They instead redirect a portion of the damage somewhere else. The halo redirect damages to its own health which substitutes duration for this ability. Link redirects towards linked enemies that are in range. Shield of shadows redirects towards the summoned shadows health.

3 hours ago, Chewarette said:

Sorry I posted a bit in a hurry, it was not meant to contradict anything you said. Just a complementary information in case someone is not aware (I wasn't until I looked it up hehe), there are some situational buffs that apply on it

All good. I wasn't sure how to take it tbh. That's true that a few words next to the quotes could have helped x)

[Tiltskillet]

5 minutes ago, Rathalio said:

I mean it makes sense that puncture procs work since they are applied on the enemy as a debuff so the damages are reduced before you get hit and overguard can be taken in consideration. For ancient healer it's hard to say if it's intended or not, it's quite a specific thing and hardly game breaking anyways. Also I think we can see a pattern with warding halo, link and shield of shadows, all these abilities do not simply reduce the incoming damage. They instead redirect a portion of the damage somewhere else.

Of course.   The dev statement didn't go into nuances, so I was just adding some practical information.   I have guesses about which of these are bugs or oversights, but guesses is all they are.

[Mr.Holyroller]

I'm okay with frost's augment, but I wouldnt say no to it being increased a little bit
Frost's overguard via his augment is also aoe CC and armor strip.
Having it up just for the gate is fairly decent.
You do also have snowglobe.

Edited April 18 by Mr.Holyroller

[Birdframe_Prime]

I want to question the base logic of this whole proposal...

Frost has Snowglobe. You literally can cast his 4 over and over and over again to build up his Overguard as much as you like, because you have an instant 'I'm invulnerable for multiple seconds and then you have to get through a charged-up shield' button while he's also freezing enemies with his 4, stripping armour with his 4, and only the things completely immune to CC are even a consideration. 

It's... weird. Played in a reasonable style, you can basically never lose your Overguard, even if you only have 600 or so. And even then if you lose Overguard you have the 'gate' from it breaking to enable you to cast his Snowglobe and be invulnerable more reliably than mods like Rolling Guard, because there's literally no cooldown.

Helminth off his Ice Wave, play around Globe and Avalanche, pop the snowglobe with his 1 if you mis-place it. If you add something like Ensnare to him for grouping enemies up, you can even play the 'Snow Plough' Frost build, where you abuse the Physics Damage from the Snowglobe's casting on top of a grouped up bunch of frozen enemies to basically smash them into the floor and walls over and over until they die. If you're struggling to do it, prime them with Viral first and they evaporate on contact with geometry after this trick.

Or you can add something to keep his energy up, something to make his weapons deal more damage... Frost isn't an amazing frame, not at the moment, but people are sleeping on his tech.

[Famecans]

I don't know why a shieldgate frame has an overguard, desperation to work as Primed Sure Footed?

Spoiler

 

 

Edited April 18 by Famecans

[Venus-Venera]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb Famecans:

I don't know why a shieldgate frame has an overguard, desperation to work as Primed Sure Footed?

  Inhalt unsichtbar machen

 

 

This is also a very strange build. When it comes to performance, the whole idea is absolutely lousy and hardly makes sense...
The author should rather think about what goal he is actually aiming for!

When it comes to fun, the whole thing is no problem. but otherwise rather epic facepalm!

[Shady_Tenno]

On 2024-04-18 at 2:31 PM, Rathalio said:

The thing is though, having huge amount of overguard is near useless. Since overguard doesn't have access to any kind of damage reduction, it's flat out crystal armor that will get destroyed very fast starting early steel path. The interest is only to get access to status immunity and an additional layer of gating and what matters is how easily you can refresh it. The amount of overguard you can have would in theory only matter at low level content, but at the same time in this content, overguard isn't at all making a difference, enemies already struggle hard to get your shield and health down anyways.

It's not that useless if you can actually stack it fast enough. It may be useless if you are staying for hours in a mission, but level cap is not what overguard should be balanced around. Using it just for the shield gate is an option ofc, but that was always the case, because the amount of overguard was too small to be usefull. Not to mention that using it for the shield gate may be an option for solo play, but it won't be consistent enough to help your team in a public mission. They reworked the augment to make it work like styanax's but they didn't increase the base value, so what's even the point.

[Rathalio]

1 hour ago, Shady_Tenno said:

It's not that useless if you can actually stack it fast enough. It may be useless if you are staying for hours in a mission, but level cap is not what overguard should be balanced around. Using it just for the shield gate is an option ofc, but that was always the case, because the amount of overguard was too small to be usefull. Not to mention that using it for the shield gate may be an option for solo play, but it won't be consistent enough to help your team in a public mission. They reworked the augment to make it work like styanax's but they didn't increase the base value, so what's even the point.

I've never been talking about level cap, just early steel path is enough to challenge overguard. Overguard melts like ice under the sun and is meant to be that way. And I didn't claim either that it should be balanced around that. Just that overguard is good for its additional layer of gating + the status immunity and that looking for high value and tank with it is not the point of overguard. So asking for more value would realistically change almost nothing.

[Mr_Stach]

This post is a great place to talk about some of Frosts other things as well

Here's some ideas I was having about just tweaking and maybe reworking some stuff.

- Biting Frost Augment should just be his passive, maybe make it ramp, so it ramps from 50% up to 200% based on nearby Frozen enemies and will "thaw" and degrade over time so you can get up to that 200% and use it for a bit. 

- Freeze is ok, maybe allow the freeze AoE on hit to be increased by range a bit for more freeze potential.

- Ice wave is terrible, it basically has zero use in my experience, also funny because it's the Subsume ability so everyone gets to have it (yay). So I dunno this just needs an overhaul maybe or a rework completely, I was thinking an Aura that killing a frozen enemy in the Aura will snapfreeze the area around you, ramping into more Criticals from the passive. Maybe the Augment will provide a bit of Efficiency for each enemy frozen around you, I dunno. 

- ice globe is fine. 

- Avalance, also fine but the Icy Avalance overguard gain needs a buff a bit I don't know by how much, I'd probably say too much and people will say I'm crazy, honestly it doesn't matter how high the max is because in higher content it just gets deleted anyways, getting there is the issue, burning out your energy bar for a bit of Overguard that gets wiped out in seconds can be a drag, so increasing the gain a bit shouldn't hurt. 

Anyways, those are my thoughts no one asked for. Cheers.

Edited April 19 by Mr_Stach
Grammar