Theory crafting: How do you think Warframe's elemental system creates it's universe's periodic table?

[Prof-Dante]

again, I'm really interested in Warframe's magic system, well anything that doesn't involve the Void, it's just too simple and unimaginative (White space that gives, does and explains whatever that is needed at the moment).

Warframe's elements however, are something else...I think it's a lot more clear than Genshin Impact or any other game with elements.

Original elements: based on Fibonacci, the original elements make up the universe, and let's be honest here, these elements (which are similar to the classic water earth fire and air) are basically how energy interacts with matter.

• Heat: Excitation of kinetic energy causes matter to heat up.
• Cold: Low Kinetic energy causes matter to cooldown and freeze.
• Electricity: The transferal of energy from one medium to another.
• Toxin (my made up assumption): A form of kinetic energy that causes the decay and deterioration of matter.

So knowing that, when these interactions combine with each other, they create additional elements...but none of them explain how that can make Rubedo, Oxium, nanospores, titanium or any other material that exists within the Warframe universe...

I tried to figure it out myself, and here what I think:

Secondary Elements:

• Gas: Any gas on the periodic table (hydrogen oxygen etc)
• Viral: Any Organic elements (Hydrogen, Carbon, phosphorus) 
• Corrosive: Any liquid element (bromine, mercury, Caesium)
• Magnetic: Any metals (iron, copper etc)
• Blast: Idk, maybe reactive elements? or ones with the most reactivity?
• Radiation: Any Radioactive material (Uranium, Plutonium)

What I'm trying to say here is that Warframe's Alchemy is broad but very precise..in order to create an element, you need to combine the necessary primary elemental forces, for example Cold and electricity to create a Magnetic element, but in order to create the exact element you need you need to tweak them somehow or use the right ingredients/conditions to create the required type of magnetic.

[quxier]

34 minutes ago, Prof-Dante said:

Original elements: based on Fibonacci, the original elements make up the universe, and let's be honest here, these elements (which are similar to the classic water earth fire and air) are basically how energy interacts with matter.

Do you have any quote? Wiki says it just says "..." ;)

[Raarsi]

48 minutes ago, Prof-Dante said:

Warframe's elements however, are something else...

That's because they're not elements; they're energy types.

[Hayrack]

First we need to establish if Warframe's universe is based on chemistry or alchemy. All I know is that Warframe started as sci-fi ninja and ended up as fantasy/dieselpunk game.

[TARINunit9]

11 minutes ago, Hayrack said:

First we need to establish if Warframe's universe is based on chemistry or alchemy. All I know is that Warframe started as sci-fi ninja and ended up as fantasy/dieselpunk game.

I agree with everything except "dieselpunk." Dieselpunk encompasses "Warhammer 40k's Imperial Guard" and "actual real life world war 2," not Warframe

[RLanzinger]

OH oh, my poor @TARINunit9, 40k is not dieselpunk at all ^^,

Such Heresy, you deserve the Blessing of MY PLASMA BOLTER !!!

[TARINunit9]

27 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

OH oh, my poor @TARINunit9, 40k is not dieselpunk at all ^^,

40k has many flavors. Orks are Mad Max, Tyranids are biopunk, Space Marines are space knights, Tau are real robot, and the Imperial Guard are absolutely dieselpunk

[RLanzinger]

I agree more on the Orks being the MadMAx dieselpunk ^^

Imperial Guard are such canon fodders but not soo diesel ^^

<= Not so Diesel ........... Diesel Punk =>

 

[TARINunit9]

9 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

Imperial Guard are such canon fodders but not soo diesel ^^

<=

See that billowing smoke and dull green armor plating? That is a textbook example of dieselpunk, like you can't be more dieselpunk than that

[(PSN)robotwars7]

5 hours ago, Prof-Dante said:

Warframe's elements however, are something else...I think it's a lot more clear than Genshin Impact or any other game with elements.

I dunno, I'd say Genshin's are far more straightforward:

Anemo = Air/Oxygen

Geo = earth/inert solid

Electro = Electricity/lightning

Dendro = pure life energy/vitality:

Hydro = water

Pyro = Heat/Fire

Cryo = Ice/cold.

warframe's elements are bit more unusual, since how does adding cold to toxin make viral? typically freezing viruses would either kill them or put them into an inert state, right? I doubt DE is ever gonna actually reveal such intricacies of how elements work in warframe, it's just gonna be one of those thigns that separates us from the academic types such as Loid and Albrecht Entrati.

[Xzorn]

It's all Pseudo-Science. I dunno about periodic tables. I hated Chem. More a Physics guy.

From the perspective I always saw.

• Toxin + Electric = Corrosive can result in a reverse galvanization process though the result is actually acid. Acid can be Toxic so I let that slide. This also relies on armor being galvanized in the first place since it's Zinc breaking down which creates the corrosive element.
• Heat + Cold = Blast is a concept known as super heating and cooling. It causes atoms to expand and contract so quickly they explode.
• Heat + Electric = These are already common forms of Radiation.
• Toxic + Cold = Viral is a bit of a stretch. Majority of Viruses don't like cold but I think it's going along the lines of being more susceptible.
• Toxic + Heat = Gas. This is easy. Apply heat and you get a gaseous state in many types of matter. I actually have a dislike for the new gas method because gas itself is a state of matter and not inherently harmful. What's in the gas is what can be harmful thus the Toxin. This can also be done with Electricity.
• Cold + Electric = Magnetic. This is another stretch. Cold is an ideal transmission for electricity and electricity itself has a magnetic field. So the components are there but need to be enhanced 100 fold to get the in-game functionality.

[RLanzinger]

To @Xzorn,

It's not pseudo-science, The ELEMENTS are the Antic Science before the Modern Science created by Lavoisier (who ended the last remnant of Alchemy, Phlogiston theory).

So Aristotle Elements, like Pokemon systems or Magic The Gatherin system, was a way to understand the world (Science).

Actually we have

The Standard Model of particle physics (Elementary particles : Quarks, Leptons Bosons)

Nuclear Physics==> (Sub-atomics Particules : neutron, proton, electron, positron... )

Atomic and Molecular Physics ==> (Atomics Particules : Hydrogen, Helium, Lithium ... )

Thermodynamics, Optic, Chemistry ... ==> (Heat, Light and toxic)

 

So the Elements of Warframe are just a sub-level discipline to easily understand things like what is Thermodynamics/Chemistry for The Standard Model...

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

40k has many flavors. Orks are Mad Max, Tyranids are biopunk, Space Marines are space knights, Tau are real robot, and the Imperial Guard are absolutely dieselpunk

Warhammer 40k is what is refered to as Techno Fantasy. For it to be any form of punk would require the setting to line up with a single type of "dystopia", otherwise there wouldnt be a punk angle. The dystopia of WH40k is rooted in what would be Gothic Horror of the divine existential kind, living with the knowledge that ancient gods actually do exsist and threaten your everyday life. Both directly from those gods and their followers aswell as from the threat of those that try to hold those gods at bay. Sometime to the point where planets and systems are completely purged. Ontop of that everyone lives in a time of constant war between different alien races, rooted in xenophobia, pure evil or the simple want/need to consume and assimilate, or conquoring for the sake of conquoring.

This is why tyranids arent biopunk. They are just aliens that have evolved the way they have. They are also not manmade, so not based on a technological level as such, which they'd very likely be if they were to be considered biopunk. Tau are also not robots, those are aliens aswell that use highly advanaced mechs and unmanned drones etc. You might be thinking of Nekrons, those are a race of mechanical created by anceint gods that also walk among them iirc.

Imperial Guard themselves are of whatever base technological level that their homeworld is. But when recruited into the imperium they are all using the same equipment for the most part, of levels far beyond what would be dieselpunk. Including Plasma, Laser and Melta weapons, along with power swords, force weapon and other things of either technological or mystical nature.

As to the OP. The periodic table is likely the same as ours with a few small additions. It is still based on iron, argon, oxygen, water, uranium, gold and so on. Then the elements are likely create from those elements depending on what the desired effect is. A nuke is probably still a nuke all the same but with better technology needing less materials for a bigger boom.

[Prof-Dante]

16 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

cold to toxin

If you catch a cold flue, and got exposed to a toxic substance you wouldn't probably be free from viruses.

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Tau are also not robots

"Real robot" is a flavor of anime that means "mecha, but portrayed more realistically and grittier than Power Rangers." A common example is the original Mobile Suit Gundam

It would help if you actually knew what you were talking about before you tried to critique me on this. 40k deliberately draws from multiple inspirations for each individual army, let alone the franchise as a whole. The Cadian/Imperial Guard art style is absolutely based around diesel punk sensibilities, drawing references from World War 2 era tanks, a slight but still noticable flavor of pulp fiction, and the eschewing of the more fanciful rayguns wherever possible in favor of tried and tried, boring but practical gasoline and bullets

Edited April 22 by TARINunit9

[RPColten]

On 2024-04-21 at 12:01 PM, Prof-Dante said:

based on Fibonacci, the original elements make up the universe,

The Void really did a number on that fish if it ended up burbling gibberish like that. Reminds me of the value in turning off transmission audio. Don't need to hear crap like that.

It's more likely a wonderful game of Telephone that went through four deviations before being packaged and sent out the door as nonsense. The original brainstorming statement likely went along the lines of saying "The 'Big Bang' was a cataclysmic expansion of energy that created the known universe, and our elements can be understood to be traced all the way back to the first joining of atomic forces in the form of one proton and one electron. How do we make this idiot fish translate that to the audience.?"

"Heat, Cold, and Electricity mods made the universe?"

"Damn fine work everyone. Take the day off."

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

"Real robot" is a flavor of anime that means "mecha, but portrayed more realistically and grittier than Power Rangers." A common example is the original Mobile Suit Gundam

It would help if you actually knew what you were talking about before you tried to critique me on this. 40k deliberately draws from multiple inspirations for each individual army, let alone the franchise as a whole. The Cadian/Imperial Guard art style is absolutely based around diesel punk sensibilities, drawing references from World War 2 era tanks, a slight but still noticable flavor of pulp fiction, and the eschewing of the more fanciful rayguns wherever possible in favor of tried and tried, boring but practical gasoline and bullets

Yes it makes more sense when you write it "Real Robot", not that easy to catch onto what someone means with just run on words. And yeah, they certainly have flavor from that genre, but they are overall just themed around japan, pretty much like GWs space version of the Nippon kingdom in WHFB of old.

Also no one says that 40k doesnt draw inspiration from multiple sources, but that doesnt make the faction that thing. the whole -punk genre is based on the idea of punk, not just that it uses a tech level of a sort. Not that the imperium tech levels would clock in on any form of punk really, except possibly arcanepunk due to how FTL travel works in WH40k, which simply put uses magic or the arcane since it uses the warp. But even that would be a stretch. 

Cadia is one of many regiments within the IG, they are based on modern/slight future warfare. Just as Valhallans are based on the WW2 era, Krieg WW1, Rough Riders Mongolians of old (which funnily enough White Scars also are) and then you have regiments based on european Royal Guards aswell as regiments based on "Barbarians" and "Native" tribes. Plus you have Catachan, that are practically based on the stereotype of the run of the mill Vietnam G.I Joe Jungle Fighter. You also have straight movie references in some special units, like Schaeffer's Last Chancers, that involve anything from the Dirty Dozen to Predator references.

And if you wanna look at the tanks and think that aestethics are enough to call it dieselpunk or whatever you want, well that isnt how it works. For instance, none of the vehicles used by the IG are made by the IG, everything originates from the Adeptus Mechanicus, where the vehicles are just advanced far beyond what would be expected in dieselpunk. Some IG regiments build their own, but it is all based on Mechanicus tech, those IG regiments just have the rights to build them because they are capable of it. Otherwise most is created on forge worlds or forge vessels.

Like you said in the earlier post, Orks are Mad Max. You have a very simplified view on the Orks, since that inspiration really only applies to the side game of Gorkamorka, which is practically Mad Max with Orks (Gorkers and Morkers) and Humans set on a very specific planet in the universe. Outside of that Orks are more a take on the great migration, which is why the biggest klan is called Goffs. But the Orks also draw inspiration from WW2 and many other things just as the imperium and chaos does. You for instance have mad nazi scientist experiements made real in the ork klans, like their jump pack troops, you also have straight up biker gang vibes, while the space marines instead give you a knight or Dredd vibe with their bike units.

Even Necromunda that could be considered cyberpunk is a stretch. The use of cybernetics is just not used widely enough by the common ganger. In reality those that do use an excess of cybernetics come from outside, from the rich part of the spire cities. Plus it is also mostly just regular gang wars and not really an uprising against a higher authority. Since they'd likely be seen as heretics and purged by the local inquisitor at that point for questioning the governer appointed by the naz... imperium.

Edited April 23 by SneakyErvin

[TARINunit9]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

the whole -punk genre is based on the idea of punk

By "punk" are you talking about the gangsters and hackers from Cyberpunk stories? Because while they are indeed a pretty critical component of Cyberpunk specifically, they're treated as largely optional in other punk genres.

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

By "punk" are you talking about the gangsters and hackers from Cyberpunk stories? Because while they are indeed a pretty critical component of Cyberpunk specifically, they're treated as largely optional in other punk genres.

No. Punk as in the "sociopolitical" sense, the marginalized common people if you wanna call it that, the working class etc. Even if we mark this off as optional, you still arent bound to a specific technological state in 40k to call it any type of -punk. Shadowrun for instance is cyberpunk since the tech in that universe is of that level, even if it has fantasy races and spells thrown in there aswell.

WH40k isnt really defined by any certain tech level, it is just so very advanced and uses several different levels of what is considered technology, from basic fuel, warp tech on the supernatural level, super advanced bio-tech, super advanced nano-tech, cyber-tech that makes cyberpunk look like stoneage in comparison and so on. And that is only if we look at what is achieved by man and disregard all aliens.

It also takes place 40000 years into the future, so just misses the mark of steam, disel and cyber- punk by 37-38000 years or so.

A similar setting that could be considered a punk universe would be Mutant Chronicles/Space or Warzone if you wanna call it that. A universe where man has achieved very advanced technology but got set back to what we have now or earlier for the most part due to an ancient evil returning from beyond Pluto and our dimension. An evil that returns each 1000 years after its previous defeat. The difference in the era that the universe takes place is that this time one of the many corporations that rule Sol have come up with technology immune to the corruption of this Dark Legion of ancient gods and their dark symmetry. Giving them access to advanced weaponry, including people transfered into A.I and robotic bodies.

But due to the constant fighting between the corporations the technology isnt willingly shared. The only real way for others to make use of this technology is by sending skilled fighters from their corporation to the multireligious mystical and magic wielding Brotherhood to fight as Doom Troopers alongside them and other corporation Doom Trooper duos, including the highly advanced Cybertronic. And while the members of Cybertronic are immune to corruption both in body and mind, it is looked upon with scepticism by many, including more orthodox parts of the Brotherhood, considering it potential witchcraft and possibly a case of being in league with the Dark Legion.

[TARINunit9]

19 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It also takes place 40000 years into the future, so just misses the mark of steam, disel and cyber- punk by 37-38000 years or so.

I'm thinking this here is where our disconnect is. Where I come from the term "dieselpunk" refers to the tech level, not the literal year on the calendar. So...

20 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Punk as in the "sociopolitical" sense, the marginalized common people if you wanna call it that, the working class etc.

Your average Imperial Guardsman is absolutely using Dieselpunk technology. While you are correct the 40k franchise uses multiple tech levels blended together on the whole, I specified the Imperial Guard, they get NONE of the advanced "Raygun Gothic" stuff and are stuck with boxy, pseudo-WW2 looking Dieselpunk tech

I forget why we are even talking about this. I think someone said Warframe had dieselpunk in it, which I objected to

[SneakyErvin]

58 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I'm thinking this here is where our disconnect is. Where I come from the term "dieselpunk" refers to the tech level, not the literal year on the calendar. So...

It is often tied to the era of the tech level. WH40k however is far beyond that tech level.

58 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Your average Imperial Guardsman is absolutely using Dieselpunk technology. While you are correct the 40k franchise uses multiple tech levels blended together on the whole, I specified the Imperial Guard, they get NONE of the advanced "Raygun Gothic" stuff and are stuck with boxy, pseudo-WW2 looking Dieselpunk tech

I forget why we are even talking about this. I think someone said Warframe had dieselpunk in it, which I objected to

You are wrong on that. The most common weapon used by the Imperial Guard as a whole is the Lasgun, with specialty gunners making use of either Melta or Plasma Guns. Sgts tend to use a Laspistol together with a Power Sword. And Sentinels tend to either have a Las/Plasma/Auto Cannon, a Heavy Bolter or a Multimelta. The reason some Imp Guard units look like they have WW2 tech is because they arent strong enough to carry the weaponry on their person, so make use of "WW2" gun platforms to utilize what is otherwise hand carried Space Marine Devastator/Longfang weaponry like Las/Plasma/Auto Cannons, Rocket Launchers, Heavy Bolters and Multimeltas.

And even if we were to look at the autogun that is more common on "reserve" Imperial Guard, it is far beyond dieslpunk levels as they use caseless ammunition. This is before even considering the more advanced cooling and optics available, along with muzzle velocity rate of fire and other things compared to diesel era and beyond guns. However, what takes most away from IG being dieselpunk is that the most used and easiest to manufacture gun is the Lasgun. Meaning the technological level is high even for the most basic weapon.

We discuss it since you objected to WF having dieselpunk while saying WH40k has it.

Edited April 24 by SneakyErvin

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

The most common weapon used by the Imperial Guard as a whole is the Lasgun

Kevlar armor, radio backpacks deliberately modeled after the SCR300, heavy machine guns based on the M2 Browning and the MG131, Guard tech can be recharged in campfires which is a reference to the British soldiers making tea on the battlefield in WW1 and 2. Oh and let's not forget deliberate callbacks to WW2 with the famous quotes of Chenkov (Stalin) and Macharius (mashup of Alexander the Great and Patton)

But apparently the very existence of lasers disqualifies anything and everything from being dieselpunk, sure

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

Kevlar armor, radio backpacks deliberately modeled after the SCR300, heavy machine guns based on the M2 Browning and the MG131, Guard tech can be recharged in campfires which is a reference to the British soldiers making tea on the battlefield in WW1 and 2. Oh and let's not forget deliberate callbacks to WW2 with the famous quotes of Chenkov (Stalin) and Macharius (mashup of Alexander the Great and Patton)

But apparently the very existence of lasers disqualifies anything and everything from being dieselpunk, sure

You are at this point throwing all of the tech out the window and base "diselpunk" on aestethics. Dieselpunk didnt come up with the aestethics, it just means that 40k (in some parts) are inspired by the same thing that inspired the visuals of Dieselpunk. I'm not even sure which game you refer to where you talk about Guard Tech recharging in campfires.

And no lol, it isnt just the lasers, it is the superior technology overall. You go soley by the look, I'm talking about the actual tech of the whole universe. Even your aestethic angle went out the window when you used Cadia as an example of dieselpunk when it is at worst modern era military aestethics, with some future soldier concepts thrown in.

I'm just gonna ask you one thing. Is your 40k and IG knowledge tied to Darktide possibly? It would likely explain the campfire comment, since it is the only game I can think of that might have such a mechanic. Because if it is, you might wanna read up on the lore that stretches back to the uhm... 70's or so.

 

[TARINunit9]

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You are at this point throwing all of the tech out the window and base "diselpunk" on aestethics

Ok so I was wrong, THIS is our disconnect

Yes, the aesthetics ARE dieselpunk. Both the visual aesthetics (mixing the grungy interwar and WW2 industrial flavor with elements of the fantastical) and the thematic aesthetics (a rise of fascism and an average citizen living through hardships of the great depression contrasted with pulp fiction and adventure narratives), that is what Dieselpunk is. That is what it means. Getting hung up on "oh this is anachronistic, it's three months more advanced than what G.I. Steve was assigned on the beaches of Normandy" is looking at EVERY punk genre completely wrong, to say nothing of dieselpunk specifically 

[(NSW)Probably_Asleep]

I love that 63% of this thread caught up discussing dieselpunk.

The elements are an interesting choice of game design and more interesting still that they decided to push it into the lore. Here's my speculation:

HEAT
Energy density

COLD
Matter density

ELECTRIC
Energy arrangement

TOXIN
Matter arrangement

The core elements then are the three pieces of "information" describing something in existence:

1. State (Matter or Energy)
2. Scale (Volume over Mass)
3. Shape (Contour and Topology)

By "damaging" enemies with these elements, you are in essence adding information to their physical existence. So for example if you increase the density of their matter then they will need to work harder to move the same amount and they'd be more brittle.

Taking this a step further...

HEAT+ COLD = BLAST
Dense energy within dense matter creates a linear, impactful effect

HEAT+ ELECTRIC = RADIATION
Dense energy with high complexity creates an oscillating, destabilizing effect

HEAT+ TOXIN = GAS
Dense energy within complex matter creates a stagnating, catalyzing effect

COLD + ELECTRIC = MAGNETIC
Dense matter with complex energy creates a rippling, realigning effect

COLD + TOXIN = VIRAL
Dense matter with high complexity creates a mutating, weakening effect

ELECTRIC + TOXIN = CORROSIVE
Complex energy within complex matter creates a random, decaying effect

The combination of simultaneous "information" would be called "interaction," which distributes that new information in a unique geometric pattern to produce a separate effect. If for example you increase the density of matter while increasing its complexity, then that information ripples outward and realign things along those ripples. While not very effective against flesh, it wreaks havoc on shield technology because shields are meant to stop forces coming from a certain direction (so upending their alignment confuses what direction the force is coming from and weakens the effect of the shield).

I think in this way you could say the universe is made up of these four elements because everything in existence could be classified as different attributes of "information," and they cause observable phenomenon based on their "interaction." And realistically when you look small enough, all matter and energy is describable through its arrangement and density. One thing though that seems to be different in this universe is the law of conservation, but a lot of "magic" systems have to ignore that one.

Finally, on the note of Void and Tau damage. Void seems like an opposite to "information." It could almost be described better as "will." A strong enough "will" can ignore information or even modify it. Tau (I speculate) is a "trick" that only sentients are capable of; not an actual element or secondary element. Sentients have conscious control over the information of their physical form, so the nature of their attacks and body can be manipulated voluntarily and constantly. This gives the impression of a unique element, but is in reality nothing more than an illusion. In the same way a movie is many still images producing an illusion of motion, a sentient is many single states changing as fast as their minds can process.

(Obviously I'm just making this all up; I'm reasonably certain DE isn't going this hard into world building)