Incarnon Riven Dispo

[CrownOfShadows]

So the riven disposition for the incarnon weapons is still extremely good.

A lot of the power we're enjoying with these weapons is due to this - not all of it for sure, they are extremely good in their native state. But most of the ones that are now staples for me have excellent rivens in them, and I'm not sure if those suddenly dropped to terrible dispo if they'd still perform well enough, some more than others. I've taken some rivens out of them just to see how much they are contributing, and it depends on the weapon and the riven; some really make or break where others aren't too noticeable.

So I'm curious: has DE said anything about this? Are we expecting a rebalance? When was the last one anyway, and when *should* the next one happen (I seem to remember it was done on a schedule but I'm foggy on the details, I feel like we haven't had one in ages - are they even still doing it?).

Basically, I think the dispo on many these are part of what are making them excellent, and I'm worried they'd fall off substantially if there was a rebalance (although in a more nuanced view the incarnons themselves are of course on a spectrum: some are heavily favored by the general community while others are out of favor). Ironically, incarnons are probably more in favor than regular weapons now, a complete reversal when it comes to dispo - remember WF before incarnons? xD

[ReddyDisco]

26 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Basically, I think the dispo on many these are part of what are making them excellent

All of the incarnons are going to wipe the floor with sp with or without rivens, what makes them excellent isn't rivens but stat upgrades from evolutions. I can removes all rivens from my incarnons and they'd still be the strongest weapons i own.

Edited May 4 by ReddyDisco

[Zakkhar]

1 hour ago, CrownOfShadows said:

remember WF before incarnons? xD

Yes, we had Kuva/Tenet as FoTM.

[kadlis12]

39 minutes ago, ReddyDisco said:

All of the incarnons are going to wipe the floor with sp with or without rivens, what makes them excellent isn't rivens but stat upgrades from evolutions. I can removes all rivens from my incarnons and they'd still be the strongest weapons i own.

Yeah, but the point of OP is that the incarnon genesis was given to some really weak and unpopular pieces. Therefore resulting in an extreme riven disposition. You do not need the riven to benefit from the genesis, but if you have a riven, it will play a role.

...back to the OP: I think they do a rebalance every time they introduce new primes. (Like now with Protea - there was a rebalance.) You do not have to be worried about your riven disposition going down - being either useless (without incarnon), or locked behind Duviri? Those weapons are not gonna be mainstream ever.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

They do Riven Disposition adjustments every new Prime Access, so since we just recently got Protea Prime, we got a new set of adjustments. I think it was all green across the board (meaning all of the selected weapon adjustments were buffs). It also means there have been a few readjustments since we have had Incarnons, since we have had a few Prime releases, Gauss, Grendel etc. The website puts up a page for them, in Developer workshops. Here is a link to the most recent.

DE has said something about this, but it was a few months ago, so I wouldn't want to try and remember exactly what Rebecca said. So take what I say next with that in mind and a grain of salt, but to roughly and loosely paraphrase, I think... they talked about how they wanted to wait and see about Rivens and Incarnons. Well actually I think they talked about it twice, one was a bit more vague, as in wait and see, and the other later, had more emphasis on "no immediate plans" to make adjustments, with the implication being, well live service ongoing game, no immediate plans doesn't mean things won't change. Its also been a while since they said that so... Again, would be far better to actually try and track down what they said firsthand, I am just lazy and can't remember the source of where my memory is coming from. Might have been a Devstream or interview or Devshorts. 

Personally? I am fine with how things are right now. I use plenty of non Incarnons anyway, I like fun weapons, not powerful weapons, but I also use Incarnons without Rivens, and Incarnons with Rivens (turns out, some fun weapons are also powerful weapons), but importantly, I am also someone who is fine, even a bit favourable to a little power creep in the game. Within reason. My personal view is that "interesting and fun" things should get priority. Like I am excited about the Cedo Prime. Cedo is already great and decent, but it has been power crept a little. You can't spam the Cedo alt fire, and by itself its not that strong, but its an interesting gameplay loop. You do alt fire, you prime enemies, and then you use main fire to actually kill and do DPS. Simple, but a bit more interesting than just shoot. So I hope that Cedo Prime gets some nice buffs (but then even if it doesn't, which eh, I'll still probably use it, since I already like using normal Cedo). 

I also personally believe the best way to avoid some weapons monopolising a category, is healthy competition, which should maybe mean a "good" balance of buffs and nerfs, but I do see more variety when I play the game these days as opposed to when Bramma/Zarr were meta, and I think a few future weapons could be decent competition but not necessarily more powerful than current meta picks. That being said, we are also getting status changes and enemy armour rework, so that could also shake up things a bit too, so like maybe a few months after that, they might start looking at weapon balancing/Rivens again (as opposed to before all that, implementing changes, then having multiple unintended consequences). 

[0_The_F00l]

The very fact that they need bare minimum aiming to switch to incarnon form will ensure they don't become (too) popular.

Then we have the semi difficult means of acquisition (where you may need to wait 5 weeks for it ) where most players will not bother.

Some like the torid on the other hand may see some drops over time and the new incarnons that are easily available don't have a seperate powerlevels between un adapted and adapted forms.

[Voltage]

From the Riven Disposition thread by [DE]Connor that I just posted in for another user:

23 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Incarnon Genesis Adapters are proof Disposition never worked all along, because it's the first time we've had pseudo-variants that improve an existing version of a weapon with massive performance difference. This means that nerfing the Disposition on Incarnon would nerf it for players not yet reaching those adapters, or you're setting a precedence that says: "your Rivens are supposed to get worse as you improve your weapons". I don't understand why DE has spent years on toying with Disposition when the elephants in the room are broader issues like Primed Sure Footed, Viral status, unchecked AoE, AFK farming, etc. The days of Riven Mods making or breaking weapons is long behind us.

I've been saying this for years prior to Incarnons, and it's just weird that DE are choosing to die on this Disposition hill when it's accomplished very little for balance. Weapons would actually be more balanced if they all the same stat opportunities from Riven Mods.

[CrownOfShadows]

51 minutes ago, Voltage said:

From the Riven Disposition thread by [DE]Connor that I just posted in for another user:

I've been saying this for years prior to Incarnons, and it's just weird that DE are choosing to die on this Disposition hill when it's accomplished very little for balance. Weapons would actually be more balanced if they all the same stat opportunities from Riven Mods.

Yes like it seems funny to me because now regular weapons feel like they're the ones that need the stat buffs to keep up with the incarnons.

[CrownOfShadows]

8 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

They do Riven Disposition adjustments every new Prime Access, so since we just recently got Protea Prime, we got a new set of adjustments. I think it was all green across the board (meaning all of the selected weapon adjustments were buffs). It also means there have been a few readjustments since we have had Incarnons, since we have had a few Prime releases, Gauss, Grendel etc. The website puts up a page for them, in Developer workshops. Here is a link to the most recent.

Ah ok!

8 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I also personally believe the best way to avoid some weapons monopolising a category, is healthy competition, which should maybe mean a "good" balance of buffs and nerfs, but I do see more variety when I play the game these days as opposed to when Bramma/Zarr were meta, and I think a few future weapons could be decent competition but not necessarily more powerful than current meta picks. That being said, we are also getting status changes and enemy armour rework, so that could also shake up things a bit too, so like maybe a few months after that, they might start looking at weapon balancing/Rivens again (as opposed to before all that, implementing changes, then having multiple unintended consequences). 

I agree this incarnon era is way healthier than the previous metas, and this is a good point about the upcoming status changes too.

[Drachnyn]

Incarnons show that rivens were never meant to boost struggling weapons and instead always a means to make players buy plat for expensive rivens on meta weapons.

[Voltage]

35 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Incarnons show that rivens were never meant to boost struggling weapons and instead always a means to make players buy plat for expensive rivens on meta weapons.

Eh, this is a bit tin foil hat. I think DE was afraid of having Rubico Prime, Kohm or Scoliac situations in the future, so they've been going super safe. Now though, they realize Incarnon weapons prove that Dispositions are flawed, but they're not going to admit they've wasted their time for 7 years toying with a multiplier that hasn't accomplished much, so they're just pretending Incarnon versions of weapons aren't there, much like how Sentinel weapons have never had Disposition changes, and they don't start at 0.50 Disposition either. There are a bunch of rules broken within the Riven system, and DE just pretends to ignore them to be quite honest.

Edited May 4 by Voltage

[Venus-Venera]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb CrownOfShadows:

So the riven disposition for the incarnon weapons is still extremely good.

A lot of the power we're enjoying with these weapons is due to this - not all of it for sure, they are extremely good in their native state. But most of the ones that are now staples for me have excellent rivens in them, and I'm not sure if those suddenly dropped to terrible dispo if they'd still perform well enough, some more than others. I've taken some rivens out of them just to see how much they are contributing, and it depends on the weapon and the riven; some really make or break where others aren't too noticeable.

So I'm curious: has DE said anything about this? Are we expecting a rebalance? When was the last one anyway, and when *should* the next one happen (I seem to remember it was done on a schedule but I'm foggy on the details, I feel like we haven't had one in ages - are they even still doing it?).

Basically, I think the dispo on many these are part of what are making them excellent, and I'm worried they'd fall off substantially if there was a rebalance (although in a more nuanced view the incarnons themselves are of course on a spectrum: some are heavily favored by the general community while others are out of favor). Ironically, incarnons are probably more in favor than regular weapons now, a complete reversal when it comes to dispo - remember WF before incarnons? xD

It would also be interesting to see exact details of the weapon with Riven. Because everything I had seen so far didn't even begin to convince me. rather what it was lousy.
In addition, most Incarnon ranged weapons have absolutely terrible performance in normal missions.

[Drachnyn]

vor 59 Minuten schrieb Voltage:

Eh, this is a bit tin foil hat. I think DE was afraid of having Rubico Prime, Kohm or Scoliac situations in the future, so they've been going super safe. Now though, they realize Incarnon weapons prove that Dispositions are flawed, but they're not going to admit they've wasted their time for 7 years toying with a multiplier that hasn't accomplished much, so they're just pretending Incarnon versions of weapons aren't there, much like how Sentinel weapons have never had Disposition changes, and they don't start at 0.50 Disposition either. There are a bunch of rules broken within the Riven system, and DE just pretends to ignore them to be quite honest.

The reason I feel confident saying this is because originally rivens didnt even have disposition. That was introduced a little bit later in response to community feedback.

[UnstarPrime]

10 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

A lot of the power we're enjoying with these weapons is due to this - not all of it for sure, they are extremely good in their native state. But most of the ones that are now staples for me have excellent rivens in them, and I'm not sure if those suddenly dropped to terrible dispo if they'd still perform well enough, some more than others.

FWIW, I don't use any Rivens, and even non-Incarnon weapons are generally overkill when built correctly, with the high-end Incarnon weapons reaching into even higher thresholds of overkill. 

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

4 minutes ago, UnstarPrime said:

FWIW, I don't use any Rivens, and even non-Incarnon weapons are generally overkill when built correctly, with the high-end Incarnon weapons reaching into even higher thresholds of overkill. 

Agreed, felarx, phenmor, laetum, torid, without a riven and reasonable build are absolute monsters.

Edited May 4 by (PSN)FrDiabloFr

[TARINunit9]

>using Rivens in 2024

[Waeleto]

I guess we're gonna see how that plays out when infested version of torid comes out (hopefully this year ? infested liches news will be in tennocon iirc) will people go for the regular torid with high dispo or will they go for infested torid with minimum dispo ? which will be better ? imo if a torid riven makes regular torid incarnon better than infested torid incarnon then obviously the dispo should be nerfed 

[Voltage]

2 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

The reason I feel confident saying this is because originally rivens didnt even have disposition. That was introduced a little bit later in response to community feedback.

Disposition was added because everyone rolled Simulor and Tonkor rivens at the start of the system. What DE failed to realize is that this approach from players exists with and without Disposition lol.

[deucich]

10 минут назад, Voltage сказал:

Disposition was added because everyone rolled Simulor and Tonkor rivens at the start of the system. What DE failed to realize is that this approach from players exists with and without Disposition lol.

Crime exists with and without police, people die with and without medicine. It doesn't mean there is no effect whatsoever. Juicy stats on a high dispo riven can entice some players to give a chance to the unpopular weapon they wouldn't otherwise.

[Voltage]

On 2024-05-04 at 8:47 PM, deucich said:

Crime exists with and without police, people die with and without medicine. It doesn't mean there is no effect whatsoever. Juicy stats on a high dispo riven can entice some players to give a chance to the unpopular weapon they wouldn't otherwise.

Those analogies aren't comparable in the slightest. In Warframe players have always, without exception, gravitated towards AoE. What got players into Tonkor/Simulor was no self damage back in a situation where most AoE had it. What got players into Kohm was a broken Status formula for Shotguns/Pellets. What got players into Scoliac was percentage based melee Range. 0.50 or 1.50 Disposition has no influence on why players go for a weapon such as Incarnon Torid or Sentient Surge Ocucor. If you want a perfect example of what I am talking about, look no further than Catchmoon or Kuva Bramma. Those weapons received Disposition nerfs before they were nerfed mechanically, and people just didn't even care (until DE properly addressed the weapons).

The "Disposition" of Nourish within Helminth doesn't matter because it still gives Viral and Energy which are competitive mechanical bonuses for your gear. The magnitude of that bonus doesn't matter and players are still using it heavily anyways. The reason Eclipse went the opposite direction is because Roar exceeds its performance in most cases. Torid Incarnon and Sentient Scourge are like Nourish. These weapons' functionalities have mechanical qualities that are not met by other weapons. Those are your deciding factors. A long time ago a Riven Mod could cause a weapon to punch in a far higher weight class of performance, but with 8 years of powercreep post-Riven Mods, they are now just a luxury power item that DE feels the need to arbitrarily manipulate as if it will make any difference on what players take.

People use Epitaph to prime enemies with Status. People use Tenet Envoy to AFK in Steel Path Mot Survival. People use Amalgam Ripkas True Steel for farming enemy drops. People use Praedos for movement bonuses. Weapons with high usage are because of strong innate mechanics. Weapons with exceedingly high usage are because those innate mechanics translate well into the general gameplay of mass-killing enemies. Nerfing the Disposition on any of these weapons literally achieves nothing. You're not going to dissuade the guy on bilibili AFK in Steel Path Mot Survival out of bounds by lowering the Disposition of his Tenet Envoy to 0.50. You're not going to dissuade the guy using Epitaph in Disruption to prime enemies in the same regard. The same goes for the guy farming Endo in Arena, or the guy getting a much higher movement multiplier over Telos Boltace with Praedos.

The difference between a high and low Disposition Riven Mod is more freedom in what stats you can roll to make the Riven Mod worth slotting over a normal mod on a given weapon. How strict the attributes on a Riven Mod become just tell players whether or not to bother with getting one. For example, players prime enemies without Rivens on Epitaph (0.55), but will use Rivens with Tysis (1.45). In both cases you have strong status primers that players would choose regardless. The innate mechanic that boosts Tysis is Heat Inherit, something entirely unrelated to Riven Mods. Whether or not DE sees the need to fix that is on them, but Riven Mods are not the point of balance there. It's the same with Amalgam Furax Body Count and Amalgam Ripkas True Steel. The point of balance isn't even those weapons or their base stats, but an augment mod that adds a gimmick function.

The only thing Riven Disposition achieves is burning players' investments, new gear being dead on arrival within this system, and create extremely strict rolls for players to go for when the Dispositions are low. If you want to encourage "balance" and true variety, all weapons should have the same opportunities for the same stat boosts within the same pool of stats based on base mods within those weapon families. No Disposition, no stats exclusive to Riven Mods (+/- IPS on weapons that never had them, Faction Damage and Zoom on Archguns, etc.), and no improperly scaling stats off their base mods (primary Kitguns using secondary Riven stat percentages, some Archgun stats scaling off rifle mods, etc.).

I'm honestly tired re-writing this every time there's a Disposition thread and being proven time and time again as DE adds or tweaks mechanics that this is still the case.

Edited May 6 by Voltage

[deucich]

2 часа назад, Voltage сказал:

Those analogies aren't comparable in the slightest. In Warframe players have always, without exception, gravitated towards AoE.

And? The point is not to reverse the trend completely, it is to lessen it. And who says that it doesn't succeed at it? Only DE have the statistics to measure the impact of disposition changes.

2 часа назад, Voltage сказал:

What got players into Tonkor/Simulor was no self damage back in a situation where most AoE had it.

Tonkor did have self damage, if you moved fast enough. The explosion just didn't trigger after less than a few meters of projectile's flight.

2 часа назад, Voltage сказал:

If you want a perfect example of what I am talking about, look no further than Catchmoon or Kuva Bramma. Those weapons received Disposition nerfs before they were nerfed mechanically, and people just didn't even care (until DE properly addressed the weapons).

With higher disposition those guns could be even more prevalent. In that case the effect was not enough which led to nerfs in other ways. Still it does not mean there was no effect at all.

3 часа назад, Voltage сказал:

The "Disposition" of Nourish within Helminth doesn't matter because it still gives Viral and Energy which are competitive mechanical bonuses for your gear. The magnitude of that bonus doesn't matter and players are still using it heavily anyways. The reason Eclipse went the opposite direction is because Roar exceeds its performance in most cases. Torid Incarnon and Sentient Scourge are like Nourish. These weapons' functionalities have mechanical qualities that are not met by other weapons. Those are your deciding factors. A long time ago a Riven Mod could cause a weapon to punch in a far higher weight class of performance, but with 8 years of powercreep post-Riven Mods, they are now just a luxury power item that DE feels the need to arbitrarily manipulate as if it will make any difference on what players take.

People use Epitaph to prime enemies with Status. People use Tenet Envoy to AFK in Steel Path Mot Survival. People use Amalgam Ripkas True Steel for farming enemy drops. People use Praedos for movement bonuses. Weapons with high usage are because of strong innate mechanics. Weapons with exceedingly high usage are because those innate mechanics translate well into the general gameplay of mass-killing enemies. Nerfing the Disposition on any of these weapons literally achieves nothing. You're not going to dissuade the guy on bilibili AFK in Steel Path Mot Survival out of bounds by lowering the Disposition of his Tenet Envoy to 0.50. You're not going to dissuade the guy using Epitaph in Disruption to prime enemies in the same regard. The same goes for the guy farming Endo in Arena, or the guy getting a much higher movement multiplier over Telos Boltace with Praedos.

Did someone claim that riven disposition is the only factor affecting people choice? What are you trying to address writing all of it?

3 часа назад, Voltage сказал:

For example, players prime enemies without Rivens on Epitaph (0.55), but will use Rivens with Tysis (1.45). In both cases you have strong status primers that players would choose regardless.

Apparently, people barely ever use tysis judjing by its disposition. Such a denial of reality gets comical.

3 часа назад, Voltage сказал:

The only thing Riven Disposition achieves is burning players' investments, making new gear be dead on arrival within this system, and create an extremely strict roll for players to go for when the Dispositions are low. If you want to encourage "balance" and true variety, all weapons should have the same opportunities for the same stat boosts within the same pool of stats based on base mods within those weapon families. No Disposition, no stats exclusive to Riven Mods (+/- IPS on weapons that never had them, Faction Damage and Zoom on Archguns, etc.), and no improperly scaling stats off their base mods (primary Kitguns using secondary Riven stat percentages, some Archgun stats scaling off rifle mods, etc.).

Putting the exact same amplifier on weaker guns as well well as on stronger ones would not close the gap. Literaly, the opposite.

3 часа назад, Voltage сказал:

I'm honestly tired re-writing this every time there's a Disposition thread and being proven time and time again as DE adds or tweaks mechanics that this is still the case.

Well, it is tiring to read that nonsense as well

[Voltage]

7 hours ago, deucich said:

And? The point is not to reverse the trend completely, it is to lessen it. And who says that it doesn't succeed at it? Only DE have the statistics to measure the impact of disposition changes.

You don't need statistics to see that players ignore Disposition when it comes to choosing weapons for strength. Felarx, Laetum, Phenmor, Kuva Hek (against damage attenuation), Torid, Ocucor, Kuva Zarr on On Call Crew, Glaive Prime, etc. transcend Disposition when it comes to popularity. That's been the case since 2016 with every flavor of powerful AoE gear. I've been paying attention to the evolvement of weapon metas players have gone for since Riven Mods were added, and the impact of Riven Mods has only been diminished when the base mechanics of the weapons were changed, not the other way around. It's been like that in every case, without exception. Even in the case of Velocitus/Corvas Disposition holding them up for Profit-Taker, the base problem is how horrendous Archwing modding is and the fact Archgun Rivens have exclusive bonuses (Faction Damage and Zoom). Bringing more variety to Profit-Taker is done through looking through Archguns as a whole, not reducing the Disposition of Corvas and/or Velocitus.

7 hours ago, deucich said:

Tonkor did have self damage, if you moved fast enough. The explosion just didn't trigger after less than a few meters of projectile's flight.

That's just not true at all. Tonkor did not have self damage for the first 2 years it was in the game. It also had no minimum arming distance, much like how Kuva Tonkor works.

Quote

Tonkor

• The Tonkor's rocket jumping mechanic has long been obsolete since the introduction of bullet jumping, so the Tonkor now deals self-damage like all other launchers.
• The Tonkor Grenade trajectory line now appears on holding the fire button (Default Left Mouse), and grenade fires on release.
• The grenade needs to travel 6m before arming itself, it will bounce off yourself, other players and AI before then.
• The Maximum lifespan of grenade has dropped from 5 to 3 seconds - grenades are quicker to explode
• Grenades bounce lower and explode sooner, making them more likely to explode where they are shot.
• The Critical Chance has been reduced to 25%.
• The Accuracy of the Tonkor has been increased.  

In this same update, Telos Boltace was given an entirely different gimmick (Stormpath, which is pretty terrible in comparison to the previous), and Synoid/Simulor was mechanically changed as well. When Rivens were first added, we only had rifle Riven Mods. Players gravitated towards the weapons that already dominated the category, and DE added Disposition soon after (November of 2016). These weapon changes didn't come until March of the following year.

7 hours ago, deucich said:

With higher disposition those guns could be even more prevalent. In that case the effect was not enough which led to nerfs in other ways. Still it does not mean there was no effect at all.

Did someone claim that riven disposition is the only factor affecting people choice? What are you trying to address writing all of it?

No, I'm discussing the claim that Disposition has any noticeable affect on choice. I'm also talking about the general playerbase and who drives such usage, not the 1% of players heavily invested in Riven Mods. I personally don't use gear unless I have a high-end Riven for it, but that is not how any normal player approaches the arsenal. What you'll notice with the popularity of Rivens for strong weapons is that a higher Disposition affects whether a player chooses to use a Riven, not the other way around. This is exactly as I described earlier as low Dispositions require a very strict set of attributes to be worth slotting, which pushes away an average player from using a Riven at all. A weapon that is strong innately will still be used heavily, as seen with many historical examples.

7 hours ago, deucich said:

Apparently, people barely ever use tysis judjing by its disposition. Such a denial of reality gets comical.

Maybe re-read my post.

11 hours ago, Voltage said:

For example, players prime enemies without Rivens on Epitaph (0.55), but will use Rivens with Tysis (1.45). In both cases you have strong status primers that players would choose the same overall percentage regardless.

The easiest way to see what I am talking about is visiting player usage stats for 2023: https://www.warframe.com/2023stats . You'll quickly notice that most of these weapons at the top have lower Dispositions. What does that tell you? It tells you that their Disposition has no impact on whether a weapon becomes or stays popular lol. That is the entire point of my comments for several years now. What becomes popular is entirely due to innate mechanics.

7 hours ago, deucich said:

Putting the exact same amplifier on weaker guns as well well as on stronger ones would not close the gap. Literaly, the opposite.

Well clearly the gap isn't closing with the employment of Disposition either. See weapon usage stats and what players generally use compared to Dispositions.

7 hours ago, deucich said:

Well, it is tiring to read that nonsense as well

Nonsense is trying to say Tonkor has had self damage the whole time or comparing the nature of a power fantasy looter shooter to crime and medicine. Players are always going to search for strong weapons. With how much powercreep is in Warframe, the factors that determine that power far eclipse the Riven system.

All Disposition accomplishes is punishing players who are heavily invested in the system, adds extra maintenance to the game, and creates another potential outlier that differs between weapons. The game would be easier to balance without Disposition. Players would also have a more enjoyable and predictable experience with Riven Mods if they knew exactly how much power they will get from a stat, knowing that this relative power won't be manipulated outside of their control later.

Edited May 5 by Voltage

[Venus-Venera]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb deucich:

Crime exists with and without police, people die with and without medicine. It doesn't mean there is no effect whatsoever. Juicy stats on a high dispo riven can entice some players to give a chance to the unpopular weapon they wouldn't otherwise.

Oh well. A rubbish weapon in SP circuit loadouts got on my nerves. it kept popping up and wouldn't go away at all. then I finally maxed it and discovered that I even have riven for it. dispo is of course 5/5.
then I rolled riven and got top proc. Only the weapon was trash and has remained the last trash... even with the best mods and top riven it does ridiculous damage...

Almost all weapons are mastery fodder. That's just a fact.

[deucich]

5 часов назад, Voltage сказал:

That's just not true at all. Tonkor did not have self damage for the first 2 years it was in the game. It also had no minimum arming distance, much like how Kuva Tonkor works.

Ok, cool to know how things were before. Thanks, I guess. Though if you didn't use examples that lost its relevance 7 years ago, you would not be in a need to give a historic lecture.

5 часов назад, Voltage сказал:

Maybe re-read my post.

You said that tysis is a strong primer that people would choose to use regardless of its disposition. Its disposition shows that barely anyone does.

5 часов назад, Voltage сказал:

You'll quickly notice that most of these weapons at the top have lower Dispositions. What does that tell you?

That's literally by design. Disposition is based on popularity. What will be the next thing to catch your attention? The fact that cars have round wheels? 

5 часов назад, Voltage сказал:

It tells you that their Disposition has no impact on whether a weapon becomes or stays popular lol.

There is no control group to draw such conclusions. We don't have statistics from another server where everything is the same but there are no rivens.

6 часов назад, Voltage сказал:

Well clearly the gap isn't closing with the employment of Disposition either. See weapon usage stats and what players generally use compared to Dispositions.

If it doen't solve the problem, it should not be the reason to actively make things even worse.

6 часов назад, Voltage сказал:

With how much powercreep is in Warframe, the factors that determine that power far eclipse the Riven system.

Why then do you insist that one little factor out of many should be "all or nothing" or cease to exist otherwise?

6 часов назад, Voltage сказал:

The game would be easier to balance without Disposition.

Questionable.

6 часов назад, Voltage сказал:

Players would also have a more enjoyable and predictable experience with Riven Mods if they knew exactly how much power they will get from a stat, knowing that this relative power won't be manipulated outside of their control later.

When they add 90% fall off to some AoE, was it in players' control? When they put more restrictive limitations on ammo, was that in players' control? Any changes in balance are outside of control for playerbase. It's not something specific to rivens only. With rivens you can at least reroll its stats to better accomodate for the changes. You can't reroll base stats of a weapon when they change those to balance things out.