Taking ARCHON SHARD off should be free by now!

[stormy505]

2 minutes ago, CephalonOlphus said:

Cast speed is a QoL not a necessity for a build to function. most builds

Sure, tell that to shield gate builds while mirage takes 8 years to cast 4.

 

 

2 minutes ago, CephalonOlphus said:

Telling people not to play frames because YOU don't like how they play without shards is also not a good mindset to give to newer players.

If something is boring or unfun, people quit. The amount of people who quit cause they're told to farm rhino, farm rhino, find out he's VERY effective but VERY boring and not fun for newbies. Cause at that point they care about flash rather than bigger numbers. Warframe doesn't have remotely good enough early game for a hands off approach, like, god, the amount of people who quit cause no one told them not to touch the open world syndicate grinds early on.

[CephalonOlphus]

1 hour ago, stormy505 said:

If something is boring or unfun, people quit. The amount of people who quit cause they're told to farm rhino, farm rhino, find out he's VERY effective but VERY boring and not fun for newbies. Cause at that point they care about flash rather than bigger numbers. Warframe doesn't have remotely good enough early game for a hands off approach, like, god, the amount of people who quit cause no one told them not to touch the open world syndicate grinds early on.

Rhino is suggested because he's almost always the first farmable frame progression wise, sure he's boring, but he also lets new players learn how farming parts and materials will be for the rest of the game.

Also you glossed over my point. A build designed for big numbers will do those numbers without the shards. Shards are there to either give bigger numbers, make them easier to get or make the process smoother.

 

[johnno23]

Rhino got me thru the Kuva queen quest when I was running solo completing the codex story line and clearing the star chart. At that time regarding Rhino as boring was the last thing on my mind as I had excalibur chroma prime (purchased via Steam) Loki and I believe Mag. I failed continually until I had Rhino built and modded relatively well. Today should i run the quest I can complete it with any frame with ease. The mission has not been made easier but with time and experience I have learnt how to use the tools that were already at my disposal but lacked the knowledge on how to use them. A simple thing as a Bullet jump is today simply something that runs on auto due to muscle memory and is very often a get out of danger for free move. Shards add a QoL aspect that lets me lower duration via mods and build for more strength or vice versa. I like shards as they do in fact create a situation where modding frames has become much more versatile and allows a player much more flexibilty as to how they mod a frame. Thats a PLUS sadly it applies to players that do not actually need them in general terms. All the plus points of using shards are not available to a huge number of players that could make a greater use of them. It seems a little backwards but that is another topic entirely.

The minus aspects related to shards as mentioned by the OP are that removal should be free becomes even more apparent if I consider that the QoL aspect should be available to a greater pool of players but the costs become even more prohibitive to those that have not yet accrued literally millions of resources that many players that reach the content already have. I only need the one arcane to use it on any weapon that can equip it. If I have 30 weapons that can use arcane rage I only need the one copy not 30x. This is where shards differ and that is fine as a shard as a reward is perfectly ok. But when as already stated by the OP I can swap out any arcane without cost why the need to charge a cost to swap out an archon shard ? 

Edited May 9 by johnno23

[stormy505]

3 hours ago, CephalonOlphus said:

Rhino is suggested because he's almost always the first farmable frame progression wise, sure he's boring, but he also lets new players learn how farming parts and materials will be for the rest of the game.

"I waited 4 days for this?" It's a really, really high quit point. Like, maybe behind the misunderstanding of how to buy weapon/frame blueprints, slots, the first modding screen, overworld syndicate grind at low Mr, etc, but it's a pain point, and it's not even fully on DE at this point, players say to farm rhino first still for some reason cause they only see efficiency as vet players and don't see how someone has to get hooked into the game before they can even remotely care about efficiency.

Anyways. to not get distracted from the original point, there's way, way too many pit falls and high quit points in the early game to not put up guard rails for new players. Frames are one of the biggest ones, considering it's realistically 1-2 weeks MINIMUM for even the easier frames in real time for working adults. That's a big, big time investment, so it'd better be worth the wait. And Rhino isn't from a fun perspective. It's not worth the lesson if it means 30% quit cause they went for Rhino first.
 

3 hours ago, CephalonOlphus said:

Also you glossed over my point. A build designed for big numbers will do those numbers without the shards. Shards are there to either give bigger numbers, make them easier to get or make the process smoother.

I didn't really gloss over it so much as I think we disagree on this aspect and I don't see a way we could compromise on it. But I'll try again.

Very often, Shards are not needed, napkin math probably 90-95% of frames its just the final touches and doesn't make the build. But, I think for a few frames, mostly older ones because they are more stat greedy or have extremely dated animations, it's like driving a car without an engine. Sure, you can push it down the hill and it "runs" but man is it miserable.
 

[PublikDomain]

10 hours ago, CephalonOlphus said:

A build designed for big numbers will do those numbers without the shards. Shards are there to either give bigger numbers, make them easier to get or make the process smoother.

What about the newer Coalescent Shards? Those add entirely new mechanics you can't get anywhere else. Raising your Corrosive cap isn't just there to wrap up a build, it's central to a lot of strategies now. Same with lots of these effects.

Nevermind that no, my Protea won't be the same without the extra 75% Duration I've put on her using Shards. Shards are stats and mechanics just like mods. They're like adding an extra 5 mod slots on every frame. That's hugely impactful and can be (and should and for many already is) a core consideration when planning out a build. Shards might be little nothings for some, but that's not how everyone view them.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

What about the newer Coalescent Shards? Those add entirely new mechanics you can't get anywhere else. Raising your Corrosive cap isn't just there to wrap up a build, it's central to a lot of strategies now. Same with lots of these effects.

Exactly!

This can completely change how you play the new Inaros, for example.

[trst]

All I'd support is making Shards cost more than just Bile. Either being different based on the shard type or something like 5-10% of each resource to remove any Shard.

Just because there's no purpose to basic resources for anyone past the mid-game otherwise. Helminth is already a poor attempt at a resource sink, except for the extremely impatient, but it's also not much of one when it's only a sink for 19 out of 92-98 resources Helminth takes.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2024-05-05 at 3:26 PM, Venus-Venera said:

But he's right. Because old accounts don't care. but new people need these resources for construction. Therefore the whole thing is very unfair to new people.

It's not for new people. New people still have a massive beginning and middle of the game to get through first, and I don't think that should be dismissed simply because they can't see the shard system on videos. They have so so Sooo many other items and abilities to discover and learn about and, by the time they get to the shard system, their material collect will not be as much of an issue as it's proclaimed to be. 

The other issue is that a non self-controlled switching of shards means that DE has less of a reward to use in a future game mode. If I can constantly move five shards from one frame to the next, then why do I need to go on the hunt for more? What's the point of assembling a squad to run material farms, etc. In other words, the promotion of player disengagement is not healthy for us nor the devs. 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PSN)Sentiel:

Exactly!

This can completely change how you play the new Inaros, for example.

will definitely be ruined! That's their business model and they've been doing it since the release. But as long as rip-offs are not punished, they will never stop.

That's why I hardly take anything seriously. not even my account. Because Billy can "give" their owners a few hundred million as was the case with GGG company and suddenly there is a fairy tale that they absolutely have to switch to the Win1X version. or what ever. But then at the latest the fun is over for me.

So... if you don't care about anything, you can't be disappointed.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

40 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

The other issue is that a non self-controlled switching of shards means that DE has less of a reward to use in a future game mode. If I can constantly move five shards from one frame to the next, then why do I need to go on the hunt for more? What's the point of assembling a squad to run material farms, etc. In other words, the promotion of player disengagement is not healthy for us nor the devs. 

The other issue is that a non self-controlled switching of mods means that DE has less of a reward to use in a future game mode. If I can constantly move five mods from one frame to the next, then why do I need to go on the hunt for more? What's the point of assembling a squad to run endo farms, etc. In other words, the promotion of player disengagement is not healthy for us nor the devs.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

19 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

will definitely be ruined! That's their business model and they've been doing it since the release. But as long as rip-offs are not punished, they will never stop.

That's why I hardly take anything seriously. not even my account. Because Billy can "give" their owners a few hundred million as was the case with GGG company and suddenly there is a fairy tale that they absolutely have to switch to the Win1X version. or what ever. But then at the latest the fun is over for me.

So... if you don't care about anything, you can't be disappointed.

[PublikDomain]

29 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

The other issue is that a non self-controlled switching of mods means that DE has less of a reward to use in a future game mode. If I can constantly move five mods from one frame to the next, then why do I need to go on the hunt for more? What's the point of assembling a squad to run endo farms, etc. In other words, the promotion of player disengagement is not healthy for us nor the devs.

The other issue is that a non self-controlled switching of Arcanes means that DE has less of a reward to use in a future game mode. If I can constantly move two Arcanes from one frame to the next, then why do I need to go on the hunt for more? What's the point of assembling a squad to run Eidolon farms, etc. In other words, the promotion of player disengagement is not healthy for us nor the devs.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

What's the point of assembling a squad to run material farms, etc.

I haven't had to assemble a squad to farm materials in half a decade, and I tell you this has been very healthy for me!

And if "the promotion of player disengagement" is really such a big unhealthy no-no... why did DE add the Tau pity system? Why did they add Shard fusion? Why did they Valence fusion for Lich weapons and Railjack items? Why did they make Arcanes shared and freely swappable like Mods? Why did they remove the need for duplicate Mods between you and your Sentinel? Why did DE reduce the amount of resources needed for Railjack? Why have they reduced the grind in between story quests? If it's so good that players are on an endless hamster wheel of grind then why has that wheel been reduced so many times in the past?

[Venus-Venera]

vor 39 Minuten schrieb Xylena_Lazarow:

The other issue is that a non self-controlled switching of mods means that DE has less of a reward to use in a future game mode. If I can constantly move five mods from one frame to the next, then why do I need to go on the hunt for more? What's the point of assembling a squad to run endo farms, etc. In other words, the promotion of player disengagement is not healthy for us nor the devs.

There are loadouts for different game modes. and cash grab content like sp circuit. So you need a lot of shards and who wants to keep changing gems? even if there is no cost.

[Tiltskillet]

29 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

The other issue is that a non self-controlled switching of Arcanes means that DE has less of a reward to use in a future game mode. If I can constantly move two Arcanes from one frame to the next, then why do I need to go on the hunt for more? What's the point of assembling a squad to run Eidolon farms, etc. In other words, the promotion of player disengagement is not healthy for us nor the devs.

Good point. 

Although if they are made freely transferable, the next steps might be for DE to disallow us from equipping more than one shard of the same type on a frame, and add further ranks to them that require a lot more grinding. :P 

(And also to start handing out shards like candy during occasional events.  And also to come up with a totally new reward that excites us more than those old shards and arcanes and isn't freely transferable.)

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

33 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I haven't had to assemble a squad to farm materials in half a decade, and I tell you this has been very healthy for me!

And if "the promotion of player disengagement" is really such a big unhealthy no-no... why did DE add the Tau pity system? Why did they add Shard fusion? Why did they Valence fusion for Lich weapons and Railjack items? Why did they make Arcanes shared and freely swappable like Mods? Why did they remove the need for duplicate Mods between you and your Sentinel? Why did DE reduce the amount of resources needed for Railjack? Why have they reduced the grind in between story quests? If it's so good that players are on an endless hamster wheel of grind then why has that wheel been reduced so many times in the past?

Everything you mentioned actually ADDS player enhancement.

The tau pity system means players would play more because they are now guaranteed a tau shard. 

Shard fusion means you need more shards to fuse...enhanced engagement.

Valence fusion means you need more of the same lich weapon...more engagement.

Arcanes require a large amount of duplicates in order to level up. Again, more engagement.

And, finally, wanting to play around with adding and removing shards, at will, costs resources. This means one of three things: A) I have plenty of bile to do it because I already have high engagement in the game. B) I need to gather more bile to do this swapping. This, in turn, means more mods, resources and rewards as you gather bile. C) I need to play more missions that offer shards so I don't have to make constant swaps. 

All of the above drives engagement, not stall it. 

[PublikDomain]

46 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Arcanes require a large amount of duplicates in order to level up. Again, more engagement.

So why couldn't Shards be the same?

If they were going to make Shards shared, wouldn't they just do the exact same thing they did for Arcanes when making those shared?

They can add engagement to Arcanes but not Shards? Why?

I don't even think Shards should be shared, but it's clearly and obviously doable if you give it just a teensy shred of imagination.

46 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

And, finally, wanting to play around with adding and removing shards, at will, costs resources. This means one of three things: A) I have plenty of bile to do it because I already have high engagement in the game. B) I need to gather more bile to do this swapping. This, in turn, means more mods, resources and rewards as you gather bile. C) I need to play more missions that offer shards so I don't have to make constant swaps. 

All of the above drives engagement, not stall it. 

It can also mean D) I just don't play around with adding and removing shards, at all, costing me nothing and plummeting my engagement to zero. Every time I've tried to experiment I've been slapped with the idiot tax. So I don't bother. I have 5 Taus in the frames I play and the rest sit in a bucket unused. I don't go out looking for more, I don't play more missions, I just don't care. And when a new mechanic is added, like the upcoming Cold change, am I going to change things up to try it? Nope! Because my Emeralds have trapped me in my current pure Toxin build because Shards remain incompatible with mod configs still to this day.

Old Arcanes were the same for me: the annoyance of having to change my Syandana and pay a big fee to move things around meant I ignored the system entirely. My engagement was zero. Once Arcanes were made accessible and I could freely experiment I started gathering them... Enhanced engagement. Rivens are similar. I'm not stupid, I know the odds of getting a Riven for the weapon I want to play with today. I know the odds of getting the stats that complete my build. It's so low I don't bother. My engagement is zero.

Edited May 9 by PublikDomain

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

23 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

So why couldn't Shards be the same?

If they were going to make Shards shared, wouldn't they just do the exact same thing they did for Arcanes when making those shared?

They can add engagement to Arcanes but not Shards? Why?

They both have their respective methods of engagement. Think about it this way: how much do you have to do to get the 21 arcane guardian arcanes to max out arcane guardian? Now, how much do you have to do to get 5 Tau azure shards? I received two in a single Deep Archimedean, another from Boreal and 2 shards from regular Netracells and Bird3 3. That's 4 shards in just three missions and a mission currency...all in one day. 

Another point is that the shards, unlike arcanes and mods, can form other shards for even greater power. To have some sort of controlled cost to such a powerful benefit isn't too much to ask for.

[PublikDomain]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

They both have their respective methods of engagement. Think about it this way: how much do you have to do to get the 21 arcane guardian arcanes to max out arcane guardian? Now, how much do you have to do to get 5 Tau azure shards? I received two in a single Deep Archimedean, another from Boreal and 2 shards from regular Netracells and Bird3 3. That's 4 shards in just three missions and a mission currency...all in one day.

Is it so hard to imagine that the answer could also be 21 for Shards too? If DE really wanted to make Shards shared they could do literally the same thing as Arcanes. Fuse it at 6 different levels ultimately costing 21 total. With 30 possible versions for the current stats that's 630 Shards. Meanwhile to fill every one of the current roster of Warframes with 5 Taus is currently between 280 Taus and 840 regulars. Those are pretty similar numbers! And then we could have specific Shards per config and be free to experiment.

7 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Another point is that the shards, unlike arcanes and mods, can form other shards for even greater power.

Unlike? They're more alike than you think. Just like regular Shards and Tau Shards, Mods have stronger versions too like the progression of regular to Prime and Corrupted to Archon and Umbral. Mods also have Transmutation. And for Arcanes you're literally forming stronger Arcanes by fusing them together. You can also trade in weaker Arcanes for Vosfor to buy Arcanes from packs of even greater power. It's slightly different, but in every case it's the same act of replacing a weaker item for a stronger one. 🤷‍♀️

[Venus-Venera]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb PublikDomain:

You can also trade in weaker Arcanes for Vosfor to buy Arcanes from packs of even greater power. It's slightly different,

of course it is “different”. because shards are extremely limited. and there is a lot of scope for arcanes. That is also limited. However, the drop rate is not limited to x times per week

[PublikDomain]

5 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

of course it is “different”. because shards are extremely limited. and there is a lot of scope for arcanes. That is also limited. However, the drop rate is not limited to x times per week

Well the drops rates for Arcanes were. The oldest Arcanes came from Raids which only gave rewards on fixed intervals. Then when they were moved to Eidolons they were less limited and could be farmed as fast as you could do your caps which technically are still limited to only certain times of the day. And while Shards are currently limited - that limit has been steadily increasing over time since release. Arcanes literally - and I mean literally - went through the exact same process Shards are currently repeating.

Edited May 9 by PublikDomain

[CephalonOlphus]

8 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

What about the newer Coalescent Shards? Those add entirely new mechanics you can't get anywhere else. Raising your Corrosive cap isn't just there to wrap up a build, it's central to a lot of strategies now. Same with lots of these effects.

Nevermind that no, my Protea won't be the same without the extra 75% Duration I've put on her using Shards. Shards are stats and mechanics just like mods. They're like adding an extra 5 mod slots on every frame. That's hugely impactful and can be (and should and for many already is) a core consideration when planning out a build. Shards might be little nothings for some, but that's not how everyone view them.

Everything you described is the "bigger numbers or easier method to get them" portion. 2 greens and 75% duration isn't doing much without the rest of the build right? Armour strip has plenty of options before you need to commit to 2 greens also.

At no point have I said shards are bad or useless or "little nothings", my entire argument this whole time has been that they're designed for late game players and shouldn't focused on until you have at least 70% of a proper build. which by that point farming bile is tedious but shouldn't be this much of a problem (referring to this thread).

[PublikDomain]

22 hours ago, CephalonOlphus said:

which by that point farming bile is tedious

Which is the problem, lol. If they're meant for late game players, players who're already going to have a good stockpile and ready access to materials, then the removal cost isn't doing anything but being tedious. It's just tedium and annoyance.

And if it isn't much of a problem - that goes both ways. If Shards are just the last 30% of a build, and they're just making numbers bigger or easier to get, and there are plenty of other options, then they don't sound like they're that big of a deal to you. So why is the suggestion to remove some tedium from such a minor thing this much of a problem?

Edited May 10 by PublikDomain

[Drachnyn]

Imo the tedious part is having to feed helminth back up. Bile has some very easy resources now. I guess DE could use this as a further helminth level up. Helminth rank 20: shard removal is free, Helminth rank 21: invigorations are free, Helminth rank 22: some useless garbo ability, Helminth rank 23: ability infusing is now free.

[pinkxblack]

Thanks for most of yalls replies, altho some of you kinda stray from the point... my main point is: DE gave us multiple chances to get new stones but how come still using BILE for punish players who equiped frames with old stones already! and read the TITLE please.

i wonder when they launched a new system did they even think about the old users, cuz now this situation is like SUCKS to be you and thats why i felt so frustrated.

Edited May 10 by pinkxblack