Steam Forums and Pride Month

[Hyroncore]

1 hour ago, Joylesstuna said:

That is also difficult to prove. It is about money and image whether you like to admit or not.

And you put your own spin and assumptions on it. Not sure how much Com Mods have in terms of connection to the DE team BUT unlike you or I, I am pretty sure Letter13 and other mods have a far better picture than we do. Assumptions make you look uninformed and argumentative. Sick and tired of the WHATABOUTISM and word twisting in this thread. Letter13 has been pretty damn clear and yet you choose to fight. I dont get it.

[Hypernaut1]

I like threads like this because it shows me why some people post the way they do. 

[Hyroncore]

Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

I like threads like this because it shows me why some people post the way they do. 

And I mean how does that contribute? (I have rewritten this a couple times and no way I can manage is coming across less then sharp and aggressive) I ask because that would either be leading to "I get to learn about what people believe in and while I may not share view x or accept y this is an engaging thread to read" OR "I think a random sentence should trigger the snowflake LGBTQI types I am seeing here. Lets see how triggered they get". I am HOPING that the assumption and effort to believe there are more positive posts to be had than the current spate of anger and bile and twisted half truths is borne out by your response coming in a "The first one".

[Hyroncore]

6 hours ago, Zimzala said:

And I never said you did, I made a statement of opinion, nothing more.

The words posted here are not always directed at you.

Many people do perceive porn and and non-cis celebrations to be equivalent and many people do see pride flags as they see porn - 'degenerate'.

I live in the deep south of the US and I see this daily from the ignorant and bigoted population.

Reads like a guilty conscience but there I go rushing to assumptions about the person you replied too oof. That said I hope you remain safe heard horrors around this topic there. That said didnt a US state ban LGBTQI connected book readings to children? YET religion is apparently safe? (Hint look at the history of litigation against the Catholic Church. It aint))

[Hypernaut1]

7 minutes ago, Hyroncore said:

And I mean how does that contribute? (I have rewritten this a couple times and no way I can manage is coming across less then sharp and aggressive) I ask because that would either be leading to "I get to learn about what people believe in and while I may not share view x or accept y this is an engaging thread to read" OR "I think a random sentence should trigger the snowflake LGBTQI types I am seeing here. Lets see how triggered they get". I am HOPING that the assumption and effort to believe there are more positive posts to be had than the current spate of anger and bile and twisted half truths is borne out by your response coming in a "The first one".

I dont think theres much to add to this discussion, but i feel like the pushback to the hate is important. No one is going to change their minds, but at least some people can feel the support from members in the community. 

[Raarsi]

1 hour ago, Venus-Venera said:

There are reviews for games there, even REAL ones. So the platform is important.

Reviews are different from the forums, although it's not like I take those seriously either.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

30 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I like threads like this because it shows me why some people post the way they do. 

I think it's good conversation is happening for sure, but I'm still kind of weirded out by the sheer amount of misinformation getting spread around. Everything really is just a game of telephone. 

For me personally, one of my best friends is gay and I've known others who've transitioned or just like dressing up as the opposite sex. Rainbows are always nice to see and this kind of stuff has never really bothered me. Pride month encompasses everyone after all. I feel like most people just need to actual talk to someone in person who's not heterosexual or transitioning instead of letting fearmongering take over their entire view of a section of humanity.

My only real qualms with folks who transition is the idea of them taking a ton of drugs and going through some pretty serious surgery, I wish that wasn't really a requirement since it's been shown to have some awful mental effects down the line in l almost half of the people who do it. Not even necessarily a slight against them specifically, but the system itself not being great. Even then, as long as it's actual adults going through the procedure, I don't mind personally.

I think a lot of people freak out about pride stuff in general because some of it can glorify being anything but heterosexual, seeming like it's bearing down on being normal, and folks have never liked stuff like that. I can't say I really see that being an issue when it's clearly the more common orientation, but when everyone's life is the Internet and all they see is the popular hate posts for "normal people" in their eyes, they get defensive.

Even if stuff like being gay is actually quite normal in nature and we have animals who can change their biological sex, which is just funny in hindsight.

Edited June 2 by (XBOX)Graysmog

[Letter13]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

My guy, they just made an Heirlooms "correction" 2 days ago... which is also 11 years after their Founders program. You can't plead "oopsie-daisy" forever lol.

My dude, my comment was made with the context of and in regards to companies that produce and sell literal poison that kills people.

The difference between tobacco and alcohol companies donating to non-profit aid groups make up for what they do and DE's heirloom debacle are so monumental that I don't know why you would even try to compare the two...

... unless you really believe that DE is donating tens of thousands of dollars to nonprofit aid groups that support the LGBTQ+ community to make up for the heirloom debacle in which case okay, you're welcome to believe what you want.

[_Eclips3_]

4 hours ago, asdf3011 said:

Are people really forgetting that a straight kiss also shows a "sexual" preference? Just cause you can use the word sexual to talk about about something does not change the nature of a sfw action/item/event into nsfw one. Using words to twist the perception of something that is child friendly like a colorful flag into something only for adults is kinda gross. Kids can be lgbt too, and I hope you will see the problem if you used the same logic to describe them just being lgbt as being sexual. 

I'm trying my best to keep this respectful, I apologise for any offence this causes, it's only due to my lack of knowledge. I'm not very educated on the current definitions and spectrum of the LGBT community, I'm only really educated on the older movement from the early 2010's (before 2015) that, as far as I'm aware, only had Gay, Lesbian and Bi before the rest were recognised.

I'm just following my own logic free from emotion and bias, I'm autistic so I think in logical chains like this:

What is pride? - It's a celebration for being liberated from past persecution for being homosexual and now it includes all the other spectrums such as non-binary etc...

What is homosexuality? - It's the sexual preference of a partner with the same genitalia as yourself and your desire to mate with them.

Therefore: This is a celebration that you are freely able to express your willingness, desire and preference to mate with a partner that has the same genitalia as yourself without being afraid of being persecuted or face injustice for something you're born with and is out of your control.

This is why I find it inappropriate to advertise. It can make many people feel very uncomfortable and since the Warframe community is all about inclusion, why should these people from any background (Gay, Straight, a-sexual, liberal, conservative etc...) be excluded when it comes to how they feel?

Using this chain of logic I displayed, this is why I don't think BLM is inappropriate and I think would be a pretty good alternative celebration. It also teaches people that discrimination is wrong so not only does it not have themes relating to genitalia, BLM has 0 reason to make people feel uncomfortable making it a very inclusive celebration.

As for thee kissing part, I also think making movies of actors playing as school children and making out is also pretty inappropriate, regardless of sexual orientation.

Edited June 2 by _Eclips3_

[Venus-Venera]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb Raarsi:

Reviews are different from the forums, although it's not like I take those seriously either.

what do you mean by that? I don't understand what is highlighted. can you give an example?

[Letter13]

17 minutes ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

I think a lot of people freak out about pride stuff in general because some of it can glorify being anything but heterosexual, seeming like it's bearing down on being normal, and folks have never liked stuff like that. I can't say I really see that being an issue when it's clearly the more common orientation, but when everyone's life is the Internet and all they see is the popular hate posts for "normal people" in their eyes, they get defensive.

I think more of the issue is that there are still a lot of people who are brought up with a very rigid world view, and that when other people or groups of people don't fit nicely into their preconceived notions of what's 'right' or 'correct' they suddenly feel threatened because their beliefs are being challenged. And most folks' response to that is a fear response; they experience fight or flight and seem to more frequently choose fight.

14 minutes ago, _Eclips3_ said:

Therefore: This is a celebration that you are freely able to express your willingness, desire and preference to mate with a partner that has the same genitalia as yourself without being afraid of being persecuted or face injustice for something you're born with and is out of your control.

This is why I find it inappropriate to advertise.

Except it isn't about mating. It isn't about the sex.

It's about two guys (or girls) being able to hold hands in public or kiss without being harassed, arrested, or even killed.

It's about helping teenagers growing up who are asking things like 'Why do I like this person when they're the same gender/sex as me?'

It's about people being able to love who they want regardless of the genders involved.

It's about showing people that homosexuality, bisexuality, transsexuality, asexuality, and other things of that nature aren't abnormal, weird, or wrong, and that they shouldn't be stigmatized or shamed.

[_Eclips3_]

26 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

Except it isn't about mating. It isn't about the sex.

It's about two guys (or girls) being able to hold hands in public or kiss without being harassed, arrested, or even killed.

It's about helping teenagers growing up who are asking things like 'Why do I like this person when they're the same gender/sex as me?'

It's about people being able to love who they want regardless of the genders involved.

It's about showing people that homosexuality, bisexuality, and things of that nature aren't abnormal, weird, or wrong.

I'm sorry but I just can't see the disconnect between sex and relationships of any orientation. It's just the way I see it, maybe I am wrong or that I'm just not educated in the matter. Either way, that's just my 2 cents, I don't really have a problem with Pride and I'm fed up of going back and forth about it all day so I'll see myself out. Take care everyone.

Edited June 2 by _Eclips3_

[Voltage]

29 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

My dude, my comment was made with the context of and in regards to companies that produce and sell literal poison that kills people.

The difference between tobacco and alcohol companies donating to non-profit aid groups make up for what they do and DE's heirloom debacle are so monumental that I don't know why you would even try to compare the two...

... unless you really believe that DE is donating tens of thousands of dollars to nonprofit aid groups that support the LGBTQ+ community to make up for the heirloom debacle in which case okay, you're welcome to believe what you want.

I was just quoting the statement you made regarding PR "stunts". Yes, there was context with regards to a bad comparison you pointed out, and I won't dispute your take on that at all. The statement that DE doesn't intentionally harvest goodwill to make up for calculated behavior "mistakes" is recognizably false though. That's all I wanted to point out.

Now, are they doing that with this? Not directly, no. However, the month of June is that time of the year where corporations all gather to "farm" the cause. Everyone knows it.

[Hypernaut1]

20 minutes ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

I think it's good conversation is happening for sure, but I'm still kind of weirded out by the sheer amount of misinformation getting spread around. Everything really is just a game of telephone. 

For me personally, one of my best friends is gay and I've known others who've transitioned or just like dressing up as the opposite sex. Rainbows are always nice to see and this kind of stuff has never really bothered me. Pride month encompasses everyone after all. I feel like most people just need to actual talk to someone in person who's not heterosexual or transitioning instead of letting fearmongering take over their entire view of a section of humanity.

My only real qualms with folks who transition is the idea of them taking a ton of drugs and going through some pretty serious surgery, I wish that wasn't really a requirement since it's been shown to have some awful mental effects down the line in l almost half of the people who do it. Not even necessarily a slight against them specifically, but the system itself not being great. Even then, as long as it's actual adults going through the procedure, I don't mind personally.

I think a lot of people freak out about pride stuff in general because some of it can glorify being anything but heterosexual, seeming like it's bearing down on being normal, and folks have never liked stuff like that. I can't say I really see that being an issue when it's clearly the more common orientation, but when everyone's life is the Internet and all they see is the popular hate posts for "normal people" in their eyes, they get defensive.

Even if stuff like being gay is actually quite normal in nature and we have animals who can change their biological sex, which is just funny in hindsight.

I wonder why they feel this way? I'm not part of the LGBTQ community, and my only thought was "cool, new cosmetics". I was really surprised to see that DEs representation of pride month made anyone upset or feel uncomfortable. Its literally just rainbow themed items, that may mean more to some than others. 

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

25 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I wonder why they feel this way? I'm not part of the LGBTQ community, and my only thought was "cool, new cosmetics". I was really surprised to see that DEs representation of pride month made anyone upset or feel uncomfortable. Its literally just rainbow themed items, that may mean more to some than others. 

You have to remember that most people don't actually know anyone who's in the LGBT community, or just someone who's gay or trans in general. Not as close friends or family, but maybe as an acquaintance at best, as they inherently avoid people like that. It's more common online than offline in reality.

The most interaction people get is stuff from the Internet, and they are things like Dead Space getting multi-gender restrooms or a trans character in Hogwarts Legacy. Harmless stuff really, but if it keeps showing up everywhere you look and you already are opposed to it, it's going to make you angry. When you have stuff like the Velma show literally making fun of their main demographic people are going to stop being charitable.

When you get tired of seeing something you close yourself off to similar things since it's just so common, and eventually you just start wanting nothing to do with it. Folks like that need to be eased into that line of thinking, not sledgehammered into the circular hole as a square peg. It's why plenty of folks don't like it in videogames, movies or comic books, those are their hobbies you're fundamentally changing. It doesn't help that a lot of these changes aren't very nuanced or subtle either, with entire gender or race swaps making those who like the old content feel like their stuff was bad.

Some folks in life are just old-fashioned and don't like questioning or thinking about things that have been a certain way for ages. It's just hard to get through to them when people attack them online for having a more conservative opinion instead of trying to actually talk to them like a person. Most of these people's first interaction with anyone in the community is online, and it usually devolves into name-calling and gatekeeping instead of understanding and compromise. That happens more in person, and is why folks who actually speak to each other tend to understand both sides better.

At the end of the day, the vocal minority on both sides really paints everyone in a bad light and makes it hard to actually discuss things like adults.

Edited June 2 by (XBOX)Graysmog

[(PSN)robotwars7]

every damn June, I swear...

I'll be brutally honest and say that some of my opinions on this subject may not be considered politically correct by today's standards and may offend some people, so I won't say them here. I'll just say that I was brought up a certain way, by old fashioned parents who are from a time before all of this, when anyone who wasn't 100% heterosexual and didn't hide it was essentially walking around with a target on their back.  while I DO respect people's choices to be whatever they want to be, because it's their business, and not mine, I will say that two things can be true:

- it IS TRUE that  LGBTQ+ individuals still continue to face persecution, violence and even death because of who they are, especially in countries that don't even want to try to understand what it's all about. of course this is bad, these people should be given the respect and safety they deserve and not mistreated for something they have no control over. I understand that even harsh words can have a detrimental effect on a person's mental health, and figuring out your sexuality is no doubt a confusing process for most people at first.

- it is ALSO TRUE however, that while many intentions surrounding pride month are good, such as what DE is doing, donating to charities to help LGBTQ+ people etc. there are those who will misuse it, or use it disingenuously, something many large corporations do these days, as if to say "oh it's June, better break out the rainbow flags!". there are those who will hammer the message to people over and over and over again, even when the audience they're talking to says "we get it". there are those who will use it purely for shock value, and yet at the same time act surprised when parents who don't agree with these ideals voice their concerns when said shock value reaches their children. there are those who ask people to be more tolerant, which we should be, but then immediately go on the attack if an uneducated person says the wrong thing, and offends someone without meaning to, just because they used the wrong pronoun or something.

I have seen plenty examples on both sides, and frankly this debate is never destined to go anywhere but in circles, forever. people's minds cannot be forced open like a locked door, but you also don't need to leave your door locked at ALL times either.

pretty much everything that @(XBOX)Graysmog said above me is on point, and how I feel about the issue. if you're LGBTQ+ and read this, know that I don't judge you, and if I were to do so, it'd be on your personality and how you behave towards me as another person: I don't give a monkeys what you get up to in your own time, and you likely don't care about what I do either. it's just better this way,, if only more people on both sides would realise that. 

 

 

[Cram_Duahcim]

Or you can just simply choose to ignore it. Or you do everything: Christmas, Easter, Pride etc are all celebrated. 

I'd personally also like to see Remembrance Day, as it's a reminder of the costs of the Freedom we have and what allows for us to celebrate everything. 

But as an individual: It's up to you to either celebrate it or ignore it. Now if DE chooses to celebrate "insert holiday, social cause here" then it's there right to since they have the freedom to do so. 

But you also have the choice to not participate either. 

Edited June 2 by Cram_Duahcim

[asdf3011]

2 hours ago, _Eclips3_ said:

I'm sorry but I just can't see the disconnect between sex and relationships of any orientation. It's just the way I see it, maybe I am wrong or that I'm just not educated in the matter. Either way, that's just my 2 cents, I don't really have a problem with Pride and I'm fed up of going back and forth about it all day so I'll see myself out. Take care everyone.

I don't think you're wrong. Maybe you are aromantic? If you have never had pure non-sexual romantic feelings for someone. I tend to get romantic feelings for someone only once I really get to know them really well, but otherwise I find my feelings are either platonic or sexual in nature myself. It can be hard to understand others' points of view, but even if I don't, I at least hope I can be supportive, because I know I want people to be supportive of me. What helped me was meeting people, unlike myself, and interacting with them. I do hope my reply won't be too much of a bother. Sadly, I could not quite get a reply ready to your last post but I feel like letter13 did an amazing job in my place. However, I still wanted to give you some kind of reply.

[Joylesstuna]

4 hours ago, Hyroncore said:

And you put your own spin and assumptions on it. Not sure how much Com Mods have in terms of connection to the DE team BUT unlike you or I, I am pretty sure Letter13 and other mods have a far better picture than we do. Assumptions make you look uninformed and argumentative. Sick and tired of the WHATABOUTISM and word twisting in this thread. Letter13 has been pretty damn clear and yet you choose to fight. I dont get it.

You clearly didn't read my posts if you think I am against pride. Mods do not have a clearer understanding of the inner workings of companies not sure why you would be so oblivious. Are you friends with him or DE? Can you speak for the operation of their minds? I can't but can tell you marketing tricks of companies.

 

[Hypernaut1]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

Folks like that need to be eased into that line of thinking, not sledgehammered into the circular hole as a square peg. It's why plenty of folks don't like it in videogames, movies or comic books, those are their hobbies you're fundamentally changing.

How is rainbow themed cosmetics a "sledgehammer"? By existing?

I'm not even going to address the rest. 

Edited June 3 by Hypernaut1

[Letter13]

22 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

How is rainbow themed cosmetics a "sledgehammer"? By existing?

I'm not even going to address the rest. 

Sledgehammer analogy might not have been the best way to put it...

Think of it this way; when someone who's been raised with a very rigid notions of what's 'right' and what's 'wrong', they're far less likely to change their beliefs. Trying to challenge their beliefs too much too quickly can make them close themselves off to the possibility that their beliefs might not actually be good or right, possibly to the point of doubling down or even becoming belligerent against any/all who oppose said beliefs. 

What @(XBOX)Graysmog is saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that sometimes if you want to change someone's views on things, you need to take a softer, slower approach. While younger people can adjust their beliefs far more easily, those who are older are far less likely to be receptive of anything that challenges their beliefs. In the latter case, a 'sledgehammer' approach (i.e. suddenly bombarding them with things that run contrary to their belief) will almost never work, and may actually do more harm than good... versus a slower approach to ease them into the idea that maybe their beliefs were wrong would yield far better results for all parties involved.

That said, given that we're in the information age and Pride Month isn't exactly new, I wouldn't equate it to a 'sledgehammer' approach by any means. Maybe the first ever Pride Month, sure, but it should hardly be a shock at this point unless someone's been living under a rock and this is their first time seeing it. Even so, participation isn't mandatory, no one is being forced to celebrate it against their will. It's a month for the LGBTQ+ community to celebrate themselves. Their celebrating who they are harms literally no one. Just like those who celebrate Hannukah or Christmas or other observances aren't harming anyone.

[Hypernaut1]

28 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

Sledgehammer analogy might not have been the best way to put it...

Think of it this way; when someone who's been raised with a very rigid notions of what's 'right' and what's 'wrong', they're far less likely to change their beliefs. Trying to challenge their beliefs too much too quickly can make them close themselves off to the possibility that their beliefs might not actually be good or right, possibly to the point of doubling down or even becoming belligerent against any/all who oppose said beliefs. 

What @(XBOX)Graysmog is saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that sometimes if you want to change someone's views on things, you neex to take a softer, slower approach. While younger people can adjust their beliefs far more easily, those who are older are far less likely to be receptive of anything that challenges their beliefs. In the latter case, a 'sledgehammer' approach (i.e. suddenly bombarding them with things that run contrary to their belief) will almost never work, and may actually do more harm than good... versus a slower approach to ease them into the idea that maybe their beliefs were wrong would yield far better results for all parties involved.

That said, given that we're in the information age and Pride Month isn't exactly new, I wouldn't equate it to a 'sledgehammer' approach by any means. Maybe the first ever Pride Month, sure, but it should hardly be a shock at this point unless someone's been living under a rock and this is their first time seeing it. Even so, participation isn't mandatory, no one is being forced to celebrate it against their will. It's a month for the LGBTQ+ community to celebrate themselves. Their celebrating who they are harms literally no one. Just like those who celebrate Hannukah or Christmas or other observances aren't harming anyone.

Maybe it's not about trying to change someone's PoV? 

Edited June 3 by Hypernaut1

[PollexMessier]

On 2024-06-02 at 4:27 AM, Prexades said:

People gotten tired of companies celebrating a pride month that usually lasts a full year.

Most people don't care what consenting adults do in their bedroom together. But it gets really, really tiresome that some have to put their preferences into everyones face.

If straight people can put a sex scene into nearly every single live action tv show and like 50% of movies not aimed at kids, and put straight romance in literally everything all the time. Gay people should be able to... openly have relationships and enjoy rainbow colored objects.

You wanna talk about having it shoved in everyone's faces? The vast majority of pop songs that play on repeat over the radio are about straight sex.

Man it sure would be frustrating if most of the stuff from nearly every form of entertainment out there was constantly shoving sexual activities in your face, of sexualities you find uncomfortable. Wouldn't that just suck? Why couldn't they just shut up and keep it to themselves?

I get it. I'm gay and even I find a lot of this pride stuff annoying. Tho mostly when it's actively ruining something and being just obscenely preachy about it (Which... all warframe's doing is having some LGBT glyphs and a rainbow color palate. Hardly anything to complain about). But you really gotta think about the hypocrisy of that argument. You're just experiencing a glimpse of what we've had to put up with our whole lives. And you're not gonna say "ban anything remotely eluding to any kind of sexual or romantic relationships in all media" are you? Cus that would be stupid.

Edited June 3 by PollexMessier

[Legatus_Rhino]

17 hours ago, Prexades said:

People gotten tired of companies celebrating a pride month that usually lasts a full year.

Most people don't care what consenting adults do in their bedroom together. But it gets really, really tiresome that some have to put their preferences into everyones face.

True True. I don't understand what they are being proud of...something achievements.

[Aldain]

7 hours ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

At the end of the day, the vocal minority on both sides really paints everyone in a bad light and makes it hard to actually discuss things like adults.

My original post was deleted, but that's basically why I'm just tired of the topic in general in a nutshell.

The flame wars that come out of this on the internet are almost as pointless the old era of console war arguments, but significantly more personal and accusatory so the outcomes are always worse because of it