New Semi-Auto Fire Mods

[KlutzMeister]

"prevent their firing speed from being modified once equipped."

I was looking forward to these mods, but there goes my hope for using this with the Lex.

 

I know there may be some weirdos who like these mods, so can you make variants that don't have the fire rate penalty, but instead replace serration/ hornet strike/ point blank?

[SneachtOra]

They prolly won't make any variants of these mods, except maybe upgraded versions in the future if people like them. These mods exist just for the fantasy of semi-auto weapons, by trying to make slow firing builds more viable.

If these mods replaced the regular damage mods, they'd just be straight upgrades to those mods, as they have more damage and give you punch through.

These mods have some niche uses, but they're mostly just for flavour, you use them because you like them. They just give you extra damage and punch through, to allow you to play into the fantasy of a slow firing, heavy hitting weapon, without tanking your overall DPS too much.

And please don't refer to people who like these mods as "weirdos", these mods were just made for people who would like to use them, and try to add some extra flavour to certain weapons, we shouldn't call each other names just for liking something that we don't personally like.

[Gaxxian]

hace 14 minutos, SneachtOra dijo:

without tanking your overall DPS too much

You are undervaluing a lot what Fire rate can do, imho. As they are, they are a DPS trap, they dont have nearly enough +damage% for compensate not using any mod with +Fire Rate (literal, ANY +Fire Rate mod will give you more DPS).

Remember that your typical weapon Arcane will give you +360% damage, and there are diminishing returns. Those mods are giving you arount +80% than the regular serration or whatever version it is for the weapon.

Counting the diminishing returns... that means what? Around +15%? Its trash.

[Tiltskillet]

22 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

Counting the diminishing returns... that means what? Around +15%?

With just a 360% arcane, a 240% Cannonade is a 52% increase in damage.  But most builds will be using GunCO too.  Which, without Encumber or some other methods, realistically brings it down to 20-30%. 

However there are some weapons that benefit from multiplicative scaling between GunCO and base damage%, so the diminishing returns are significant but not as severe. And some builds have no space for or don't want RoF bonuses, where Cannonade's penalty isn't one, or is actually a bonus, since it negates RoF penalties too.  And sometimes GunCo isn't a factor, like in bossfights, some snipe-builds, and for newer players.   And it's hard to put a number on the value of punch through, especially for (single target) shotguns and sidearms. 

That's a lot of caveats, but it's still kind of a trap for geared up players most of the time.   tl;dr:  RoF bonuses are usually very valuable, base damage not so much.

[Mr.Holyroller]

On 2024-06-19 at 9:34 AM, KlutzMeister said:

"prevent their firing speed from being modified once equipped."

I was looking forward to these mods, but there goes my hope for using this with the Lex.

 

I know there may be some weirdos who like these mods, so can you make variants that don't have the fire rate penalty, but instead replace serration/ hornet strike/ point blank?

It's actually a good thing, but pistols have so many mods that there's no real reason to use cannonade on them at all.
So, lets go over a few things about the new mods:

#1: YOU DONT NEED CANNONADE MODS TO USE THE SEMI-AUTO ACCESSIBILITY OPTION

#2: Using this mod just for damage is pretty bad since we have so many ways to increase secondary weapon damage and because weapon arcanes exist.

#3: Having a fixed fire rate means that for primary weapons you can swap out primed shred and use critical delay for any semi-auto weapon and still get punch-through without losing fire rate (very nice on the latron)

I would like to see primed versions of these mods in the future. Maybe then it will be more worthwile on secondaries and shotguns. Its definitely worth testing and considering for a lot of rifles. Or they can make it a low damage increase that is multiplicatve instead of additive weapon damage

Edited June 20 by Mr.Holyroller

[Debatra]

At first I thought the new semi-auto mods were pointless. "Nah, I'll just keep using Primed Shred."

Then I noticed that the damage buff is a good bit higher than Serration.

Then I realized that, rather than being incompatible with Fire Rate mods, it simply negates any Fire Rate effects. Critical Delay, et al, suddenly have no downside. My fire rate on some weapons actually goes up with this mod.

...If I could actually use it, that is. Because I then struggled to find any semi-auto weapons in my arsenal to actually try them with. (I don't have the shotgun mod yet.) Everything good in my arsenal is either auto, burst, charge, or has some alternate form/fire that flags it as incompatible. Best one I have actually does use a Fire Rate mod.

Guess I'll just stick with Primed Shred.

[Azamagon]

They do have one potential major upside though: If you get paired with / play as a Wisp and you're using Hemorrhage/Internal Bleeding, her motes won't screw up the bleed-proc chances.

[Gaxxian]

hace 30 minutos, Debatra dijo:

Then I realized that, rather than being incompatible with Fire Rate mods, it simply negates any Fire Rate effects. Critical Delay, et al, suddenly have no downside. My fire rate on some weapons actually goes up with this mod.

Yep, only case scenario is when you were using Serration but not any Fire Rate mods/buffs (or, as the previous post said, you are using Hemorrhage/Internal Bleeding and you don't want to end having too much Fire Rate), so that Serration its an easy swap.

But, between the fact that this type of build is not so widely used (in general, we all put some Fire Rate) and the fact that ONLY works with Semi-auto (idk the reason why they made them like that), there are just too few instances that you could effectively use them, and more than not, they are a trap to people that didnt dive deep into the building process.

Its sad, because i always cheer new build opportunities. But... well...

[(PSN)Sentiel]

I use these on weapons that already have comfortable RoF. They replace Hornet Strike add PT, which is rare on secondaries, and make sure my RoF isn't getting affected by Wisp, which is a huge annoyance to me because she increases RoF but not reload speed.

The best example I can give is Kuva Brakk. It apologies it's native 0,5 PT and with the new accessibility setting, turns it into one of the best secondaries.

[Debatra]

29 minutes ago, Gaxxian said:

Yep, only case scenario is when you were using Serration but not any Fire Rate mods/buffs (or, as the previous post said, you are using Hemorrhage/Internal Bleeding and you don't want to end having too much Fire Rate), so that Serration its an easy swap.

But, between the fact that this type of build is not so widely used (in general, we all put some Fire Rate) and the fact that ONLY works with Semi-auto (idk the reason why they made them like that), there are just too few instances that you could effectively use them, and more than not, they are a trap to people that didnt dive deep into the building process.

Its sad, because i always cheer new build opportunities. But... well...

It's also good for low-mastery players to get a nice damage boost before they can afford to max out Serration/Hornet/Galvanized, as well as un/low-rank weapons that can't fit them yet. Plus it saves a mod slot on standard punch through. Especially Seeker.

[0_The_F00l]

It is indeed very niche , but when you find one of those 3 weapons that fits that niche it is very nice on those very specific weapons.

I was very surprised by how few pure semi weapons we actually have.

[3xt1inct]

the only primary weapon where the cannonade mods actually made the weapon better was the latron prime with incarnon, but only if you use roar subsume to replace the faction mod....

[SneachtOra]

On 2024-06-20 at 3:59 PM, Gaxxian said:

You are undervaluing a lot what Fire rate can do, imho. As they are, they are a DPS trap, they dont have nearly enough +damage% for compensate not using any mod with +Fire Rate (literal, ANY +Fire Rate mod will give you more DPS).

Remember that your typical weapon Arcane will give you +360% damage, and there are diminishing returns. Those mods are giving you arount +80% than the regular serration or whatever version it is for the weapon.

Counting the diminishing returns... that means what? Around +15%? Its trash.

Oh no yeah, you're 100% right, the Cannonade mods do not give you nearly enough damage to make up for the loss in firerate, but I don't think that they're really trying to be meta or the best option, I do think they're just there to make not running a firerate mod seem a bit better. That's why they give you some punch through as well.

I never meant to undersell how much of a DPS drop you get by using them, firerate is an incredibly important stat, it was never my point or intention to undersell firerate or oversell how these mods perform.

My main point was just that, them locking firerate is the point of the mod, and the damage is there just to make it less of a huge downside. I'd have nothing against the damage of these mods being increased, as the upside is a bit too far off of the downside, even though I don't think the intention of the mods was to make them as good as firerate, because they never really will be. Even if they gave you insane amounts of damage, firerate has greater utility than just helping with damage.

I understand all of what you said, the damage of the mods just wasn't my main point, my main point was that they're supposed to be flavour mods, and that removing the downside of these mods would defeat the point as to why they were introduced.

[Breyos]

8 hours ago, Gaxxian said:

ONLY works with Semi-auto (idk the reason why they made them like that)

Well they wanted to buff semi-auto as enemy density has increased over the years and low fire rate (non-aoe) weapons in general have been struggling a bit. Modding for fire rate to compensate results in lots of spam-clicking which isn't fun. These mods were meant to be an option to get more power out of some of your weapons (and punchthrouh, a form of aoe) without neccesarily requireing you to mod for fire rate, which would ultimately be defeating the purpose of semi-auto in the first place with the new auto fire accessability option. If they allowed you to mod for fire rate and just turned off the accessability option when you had the mod equipped (which I believe was what they were planning to do originally) then it would result in people continuing to use the spam clicking build sacrificing usability (and arguably fun) for optimal damage.

We've been given a lot of new tools this patch, and a lot has changed. I feel like it's too soon to write anything off. Personally, I'm really enjoying the mod on my Latron, and I'm planning on seeing how well it functions with the Corinth as well.

[Gaxxian]

hace 20 minutos, Breyos dijo:

lots of spam-clicking which isn't fun

They added autoclick for semi weapons, there is no more spam-click ;)

[Breyos]

1 minute ago, Gaxxian said:

They added autoclick for semi weapons, there is no more spam-click ;)

Yes, I addressed this later in my comment. I was referring to the game before the update dropped to highlight why the mods seemed neccessary.

[Joylesstuna]

On 2024-06-20 at 9:59 AM, Gaxxian said:

You are undervaluing a lot what Fire rate can do, imho. As they are, they are a DPS trap, they dont have nearly enough +damage% for compensate not using any mod with +Fire Rate (literal, ANY +Fire Rate mod will give you more DPS).

Remember that your typical weapon Arcane will give you +360% damage, and there are diminishing returns. Those mods are giving you arount +80% than the regular serration or whatever version it is for the weapon.

Counting the diminishing returns... that means what? Around +15%? Its trash.

100% this. They are not bad mods and have their odd use but fire rate is extremely important. There so many ways to get damage.

[Breyos]

What if instead of negating changes in fire rate it instead converted fire rate bonuses into faction damage or something? That could be interesting.

[BiancaRoughfin]

On 2024-06-19 at 1:34 PM, KlutzMeister said:

"prevent their firing speed from being modified once equipped."

I was looking forward to these mods, but there goes my hope for using this with the Lex.

I know there may be some weirdos who like these mods, so can you make variants that don't have the fire rate penalty, but instead replace serration/ hornet strike/ point blank?

There are some builds where this mod is very good, example being the Rubico with Critical Delay as it reduces the Fire rate substantially and when adding this mod that penalty is negated.

Other weapons that benefit of these are those you dont need Fire Rate to such as the Exergis.

[Numerounius]

On 2024-06-20 at 8:59 AM, Gaxxian said:

You are undervaluing a lot what Fire rate can do, imho. As they are, they are a DPS trap, they dont have nearly enough +damage% for compensate not using any mod with +Fire Rate (literal, ANY +Fire Rate mod will give you more DPS).

Remember that your typical weapon Arcane will give you +360% damage, and there are diminishing returns. Those mods are giving you arount +80% than the regular serration or whatever version it is for the weapon.

Counting the diminishing returns... that means what? Around +15%? Its trash.

There is also status procs in which more fire rate equals status procs galore

[Pandygon]

I'm having fun with my Strun Prime Incarnon + cannonade + auto click + critical delay. It has a really low magazine of 10 and already oneshot in non incarnon form on steel path, don't want extra fire rate.

[3xt1inct]

13 minutes ago, Pandygon said:

I'm having fun with my Strun Prime Incarnon + cannonade + auto click + critical delay. It has a really low magazine of 10 and already oneshot in non incarnon form on steel path, don't want extra fire rate.

so far strun prime might be the only weapon where the mod is a direct upgrade

[Tiltskillet]

8 minutes ago, 3xt1inct said:

so far strun prime might be the only weapon where the mod is a direct upgrade

Exergis is one I want to try.   Single shot unless modded for it, base damage is multiplicative with Galvanized Savvy, and Shotgun Vendetta is a fantastic arcane for it without a base damage bonus to dilute Cannonade.  And the punch through bonus is enough to make its innate 0.5m a lot more relevant. (0.5 doesn't get through the largest enemies, and often doesn't get through normal ones on their "thick" sides.)

A lot of shotguns are  promising just because Vendetta is so good.

[3xt1inct]

47 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Exergis is one I want to try.   Single shot unless modded for it, base damage is multiplicative with Galvanized Savvy, and Shotgun Vendetta is a fantastic arcane for it without a base damage bonus to dilute Cannonade.  And the punch through bonus is enough to make its innate 0.5m a lot more relevant. (0.5 doesn't get through the largest enemies, and often doesn't get through normal ones on their "thick" sides.)

A lot of shotguns are  promising just because Vendetta is so good.

this sounds like it would work, but do you intend to keep exergis single shot and focus on reload speed to effectively increase fire rate then? if i remember correctly you can bypass time between shots due to fire rate if the reload is shorter than the fire rate interval (limited amount of cases and result of testing edge cases and curiosity).

[Tiltskillet]

Just now, 3xt1inct said:

this sounds like it would work, but do you intend to keep exergis single shot and focus on reload speed to effectively increase fire rate then?

An extra shell in the magazine plus a bunch of reload is normally how I play with it.  I don't use RoF on any build.  It's potentially useful, but not compared to other mods for the way I play.  Maybe if I built for three shots.

 

4 minutes ago, 3xt1inct said:

if i remember correctly you can bypass time between shots due to fire rate if the reload is shorter than the fire rate interval

I'm not sure what that means.  If it's about manual reloads, I don't think I can tell a difference.   According to the wiki the weapon has no automatic reload delay.