Why does the community want DE to hold our hand?

[NekroArts]

On 2024-07-24 at 5:08 PM, _Eclips3_ said:

Not sure how the time gating helps profits though?

In layman's term: while they made the gameplay enjoyable, the time gates are just "inconvenient" enough that the consumer is willing to spend money to skip it. If the attitude is either "I'm willing to support them" or "I'm not going to get it through this gameplay so I'll just trade it from someone else with plat" then they got you.

Let's forget about the former and just focus on the latter; before determining if the "inconvenience" is their deal breaker, they'll ask themselves: "Are there better games equivalent to it that's worth my time? Will I miss the gameplay from this game?" There have been so many times where users have express how DE handle the game to the point of quitting, but some don't because of the answers they end up on. This is part one of the formula - making the actual gameplay enjoyable that they can't turn away from it.

"But the time gates and caps are part of the gameplay!" I know, we now go into part two which is built inside part one - covering up those "inconvenience". The First Descendant have relatively short crafting times compare to Warframe, the thing that "bothered" me was the fact there's a limit of how many thing you can queue up to craft. You can only queue 5 things at a time. At first it was becoming a deterrent, but I got caught up in the gameplay and making progress in other stuff, that didn't have a limit/cap, that I ended actually forgetting about the timers. Warframe has been doing this for years. The only one's that feels the limits are the ones who are near the end of the content. The closer they are to finishing farming, the closer they are to not have any reason to actually play the game. Actual gameplay must always be bigger than the "inconvenience". To a new and mid player they have many more content available after hitting the cap and the timers, but not for the senior players. The only reasons why new and mid players would notice them is because they're directionless, they got hit with choice paralysis, or they already had negative views on them. 

So part one is about making the gameplay enjoyable and part two is covering up the "inconvenience", how does this help profits? Timers and cap limits are effectively "window of willing to purchase". When they get hit by the timer/cap the window opens they have to make a decision; it could take a few days or it can be instant. A players experiences from parts one and two now comes together to make the decision. If the formula was made "correctly" then it should, every now and then, cause a player to make a purchase; this purchase not only involves buying with your own money, but also trading with platinum. For you, OP, I assume if microtransactions are a must it would be cosmetics only and not time/cap skips. However, if the data collected from the formula shows that DE gets more money from the time gates and caps on top of the other formulas implemented they'll take it. For you and others like you, the formulas that you want to only work doesn't give them that result.

Edited July 25 by NekroArts

[TARINunit9]

18 hours ago, _Eclips3_ said:

Don't you think grown adults deserve autonomy in how they spend their free time?

I think you misunderstand the purpose of "turn off the game and come back tomorrow"

It is NOT a condescending nanny attitude to the tune of "oh you're wasting your life playing video games, Eclipse, go outside and get some exercise"

If anything, it's the opposite. DE in fact DOES want you addicted to this game. And you don't get addicted by burning through all the content in one 12-hour play session before uninstalling and going to bed. You get addicted by playing two hours a day with a little reminder in the back of your head "oh that weapon I was crafting will be done tomorrow, gotta remember to log back in and try it out"

That's what the time gate is for

[MrDugan]

20 hours ago, kuciol said:

Remove limits and you make booster mandatory and thats borderline P2W

You're making a statement here and not actually backing it up.  Because that doesn't hold any water.  You don't explain how it makes it mandatory at all, just an implied "trust me, bro."  A booster doesn't become mandatory when you remove limitations.  For someone that wasn't going to run a booster anyway, they can farm more than they would in a given play session because there is no cap.  For someone that WAS going to run them anyway, it just removes the arbitrary time delay between when they're allowed to farm.  If anything it's more player friendly in that regard, because you get more use out of the same amount of booster.  Considering the fact that it's always smart to run a booster anyway, it changes nothing because the benefit is always there.  It's a booster.  That's why you pay for it.  It would only become mandatory if you're other presumption is true, which it's not, because it's your opinion and not a fact.  That presumption is that they would HAVE to change prices.

And they won't HAVE to do anything regarding the prices.  If anything, they're already too high for many things, so they'd be fine where they're at.  So you making more arbitrary statements with the assumption you're correct is still pointless.  They do not HAVE to adjust any of those things.  I can already tell this is going to be a pointless argument to have, because you're making assumptions based on your own perspective, not providing any kind of foundation for your assertions, and then stating them as fact.  So this is just going to go in circles.

[MrDugan]

21 hours ago, trst said:

They do, in fact, benefit at least some players. Because if it wasn't for the padding it'd have to be paid content or their monetization would have to get very aggressive. As padding is otherwise necessary in one form or another and without it DE would have to be very direct in how they get their return on investment.

As far as the whole "player health" angle goes it's more of a fortunate side effect to this type of padding. As there are the types of players who will run themselves ragged without being limited. As evident by how insane some players have been in events that had no such limitations like Plague Star or Scarlet Spear. So in most cases those players are also benefiting from it as it's protecting them from themselves.

Except it's still the same amount of content, whether it's an hour once a day for 10 days, or 10 hours in 1 day.  It's still 10 hours of content.  Whatever the player was going to do while not running that content, they can still do.  Or if they weren't going to play, then they're still going to do that.  So like I said, it's about daily engagement numbers.  It does not benefit the player.  Padding it out isn't going to make that player do anything that prevents worse monetization, so unless you'd like to explain that assertion, I'm going to assume it was pulled from the void.

[trst]

24 minutes ago, MrDugan said:

Except it's still the same amount of content, whether it's an hour once a day for 10 days, or 10 hours in 1 day.  It's still 10 hours of content.  Whatever the player was going to do while not running that content, they can still do.  Or if they weren't going to play, then they're still going to do that.  So like I said, it's about daily engagement numbers.  It does not benefit the player.  Padding it out isn't going to make that player do anything that prevents worse monetization, so unless you'd like to explain that assertion, I'm going to assume it was pulled from the void.

It's not that hard of a concept to grasp. 

Padding is necessary to prolong play time and engagement. With it there's more opportunities for players to spend money or engage with external parts of the game. It also stalls player progression which grants the devs more time to get out the next batch of content to continue the cycle (this right here is why padding is often still present in even games with aggressive monetizing). All of which serves to maintain a player base and fund the game. As well DE is running a business and needs to turn a profit and see continued growth. 

Now the part of this that benefits some players is in that this model helps keep the game a F2P. As this habit forming approach encourages sales and an active game is more likely to bring in more players. Meanwhile games that don't use padding are more likely to just charge upfront or use more nefarious methods of monetizing. However some would prefer to just pay for the game and not have to deal with it being drawn out, which conveniently is also an option in for most things in this game.

Now if they removed the padding but kept the same monetization things would be at risk of falling apart. As it's then more likely for players to finish content before they have reasons to spend, more quickly reach the point of abandoning the game till the next update which would also be a longer break then usual, and make it harder to maintain those habits on players thus making it harder to retain them. Which all could then would lead into DE seeking out different avenues of monetization like paid expansions. 

Plus, again, the player health angle is a valid benefit for those who lack self control.

 

In short: Padding good because it helps to keep the game free.

[MrInubis]

1 hour ago, MrDugan said:

You're making a statement here and not actually backing it up.  Because that doesn't hold any water.  You don't explain how it makes it mandatory at all, just an implied "trust me, bro."  A booster doesn't become mandatory when you remove limitations.  For someone that wasn't going to run a booster anyway, they can farm more than they would in a given play session because there is no cap.  For someone that WAS going to run them anyway, it just removes the arbitrary time delay between when they're allowed to farm.  If anything it's more player friendly in that regard, because you get more use out of the same amount of booster.  Considering the fact that it's always smart to run a booster anyway, it changes nothing because the benefit is always there.  It's a booster.  That's why you pay for it.  It would only become mandatory if you're other presumption is true, which it's not, because it's your opinion and not a fact.  That presumption is that they would HAVE to change prices.

And they won't HAVE to do anything regarding the prices.  If anything, they're already too high for many things, so they'd be fine where they're at.  So you making more arbitrary statements with the assumption you're correct is still pointless.  They do not HAVE to adjust any of those things.  I can already tell this is going to be a pointless argument to have, because you're making assumptions based on your own perspective, not providing any kind of foundation for your assertions, and then stating them as fact.  So this is just going to go in circles.

Do you have even a little bit of common sense in you? No limits = booster makes you get double the standing. Now it just lets you get to the limit faster. Why would they change prices? So people wont be done with content within 3 hours of its release. It takes month to make. Also you have things in shops like arcanes, frames, weapons, relics etc and that would straight up invalidate any drop of those things. Why bother farming when you can get everything within hour or 2? Now you have everything and have no point in playing further so you leave. Is it really that hard to grasp?

[RichardKam]

10小时前 , _Eclips3_ 说:

Yes, people don't share my point of view, hence why I'm asking to find out the reasons....?????

It is kind of taking away autonomy, like you're being locked behind a time gate telling you that you can't make the choice to carry on levelling up the syndicate or re-try the MR challenge. Why do you want to be told what you can and can't level up just at any random point? Why not have some self control and just stop when you need to? That's my point, why do you need DE to hold your hand like a parent as if you have the self control of a toddler?

What reason? For most people it is a non-issue. People don't need a reason to accept an issue that was not an issue to begin with.

I can't speak for anyone but I can give you some perspective. You felt that you were being "locked" behind a time gate when you wanted to level up a syndicate or re-try the MR challenge in a single day. Other people don't feel "locked" behind a time gate because they don't need to level up a syndicate or re-try the MR challenge in a single day.

Another perspective. People spent 1k hours playing time in this game and they considered themselves casual players. For 1k hours play time, if you play 8 hours a day non-stop (which is extremely devoted) we are still talking about 4 months. 2 hours everyday (still something), that would be almost 1.5 years. I am sure most people don't mind waiting 1 day for the reset. There are only 5 tiers for most syndicates. There are only 30+4 MR ranks.

10小时前 , _Eclips3_ 说:

You're like what, in your 20's or even older? You'd be fine with your parents forcing you to come home before 8pm when you go out with your mates for a drink and then grounding you from going out if you come home 5 minutes late? I doubt that, so why would you want similar treatment from a random company who doesn't truly care about you?

This metaphor is way off the mark. Stop doing that. It does not strengthen your case and does not make you look smart.

Standing cap does not stop you from doing anything. You can keep doing bounties and stuff all you wanted.

If you insisted on doing that (please don't), it would be like my parents set the rule of coming home before 8pm and if I don't, I can still hangout with my mates catching fish and mining gems and grinding void angels all I wanted.

[RichardKam]

10小时前 , _Eclips3_ 说:

Not really, It's a game, It's not the end of the world, it's just mildly frustrating. And it is the case that I loose a whole 12 hours and then 3 days to enjoy the items I'm crafting before I go back to work and have literally 0 time to play because I'm up till daylight, probably trying to help someone not die from a stab wound or trying to keep a man alive after he did a backflip off his roof, hit his face on the pavement and split his face in half (true story) then going to bed in the morning and sleeping till the afternoon to go back again.

God I wish my life was as easy as yours where I can just grab a burger and fries with Mountain Dew and just play when ever I feel then have a go at people who don't have as much time as you to play games. Luckily I get paid a S#&$ load for it and I can actually buy nice things for me and my gf to make up for it. Also i never blamed my gf for my lack of time, I'm just stating even on my holiday I have other obligations.

Then you are complaining a wrong problem here. If you have zero time to play, even if all time gating was removed, you still have zero time to play.

And if you got paid a xxx load for your job, my suggestion would be to buy plat and skip most of the grinding and enjoy the most out of your limited game sessions.

[0bsi]

11 hours ago, _Eclips3_ said:

And it is the case that I loose a whole 12 hours and then 3 days to enjoy the items I'm crafting before I go back to work and have literally 0 time to play

Nice of you to assume nobody else here has jobs or a busy life.... but again with the melodrama.  There are 365 days in a year, are you seriously trying to argue that you literally have zero time to play, at all, in the future... forever?  I imagine not.   So the issue is that you are salty because you had days off that you wanted to play (which is fair), and you wanted to play with those things then - Which is fair enough.....   

But, you've said you are not new to the game, so you KNEW the timers were a thing.....  You could have done what everyone else does - do something else while waiting for stuff to craft, or use the ooodles of cash you're bragging about having, to rush if you're really that set on using that stuff.  (or even use some of that time to grind relics/arcanes/mods to sell for the plat to fund the rush).  But instead you use all that zero time you have, to come here and argue with everyone about the fact that having timers on things is like having a parent telling you what to do.

Others have already given all the reasons why timers are basically essential in a free to play game like Warframe.  Frankly I think they also serve to help some people learn patience and planning.

[MrDugan]

4 hours ago, kuciol said:

No limits = booster makes you get double the standing.

That's how it already works.  You're only changing the time period, not the standing gained for work put in.

5 hours ago, trst said:

It's not that hard of a concept to grasp. 

Padding is necessary to prolong play time and engagement. With it there's more opportunities for players to spend money or engage with external parts of the game. It also stalls player progression which grants the devs more time to get out the next batch of content to continue the cycle (this right here is why padding is often still present in even games with aggressive monetizing). All of which serves to maintain a player base and fund the game. As well DE is running a business and needs to turn a profit and see continued growth. 

Now the part of this that benefits some players is in that this model helps keep the game a F2P. As this habit forming approach encourages sales and an active game is more likely to bring in more players. Meanwhile games that don't use padding are more likely to just charge upfront or use more nefarious methods of monetizing. However some would prefer to just pay for the game and not have to deal with it being drawn out, which conveniently is also an option in for most things in this game.

Now if they removed the padding but kept the same monetization things would be at risk of falling apart. As it's then more likely for players to finish content before they have reasons to spend, more quickly reach the point of abandoning the game till the next update which would also be a longer break then usual, and make it harder to maintain those habits on players thus making it harder to retain them. Which all could then would lead into DE seeking out different avenues of monetization like paid expansions. 

Plus, again, the player health angle is a valid benefit for those who lack self control.

 

In short: Padding good because it helps to keep the game free.

So you're just going to repeat yourself.  Got it.

[MrInubis]

Just now, MrDugan said:

That's how it already works.  You're only changing the time period, not the standing gained for work put in.

Read the whole thing.... Now it only lets you get to the limit faster. It saves you like 20 minutes. Now you can get this 30k standing daily, without limits a  half milion would not be unheard of. If you cant see a problem with that i have nothing more to add.

[Zimzala]

20 hours ago, _Eclips3_ said:

Not really, It's a game, It's not the end of the world, it's just mildly frustrating. And it is the case that I loose a whole 12 hours and then 3 days to enjoy the items I'm crafting before I go back to work and have literally 0 time to play because I'm up till daylight, probably trying to help someone not die from a stab wound or trying to keep a man alive after he did a backflip off his roof, hit his face on the pavement and split his face in half (true story) then going to bed in the morning and sleeping till the afternoon to go back again.

God I wish my life was as easy as yours where I can just grab a burger and fries with Mountain Dew and just play when ever I feel then have a go at people who don't have as much time as you to play games. Luckily I get paid a S#&$ load for it and I can actually buy nice things for me and my gf to make up for it. Also i never blamed my gf for my lack of time, I'm just stating even on my holiday I have other obligations.

So now you play the martyr?

C'mon man, you say it's not big deal, it's just a video game, then you spout this crap about being a first responder and acting like others don't do jack and play games while easting unhealthy S#&$ all day?

Get Over Yourself.

You sound like a child mad at the world because the world won't cater to their whims, while trying to act tough because you think what you do makes you better.

Get Over Yourself.

Edited July 26 by Zimzala
words are hard

[4thBro]

What is this Neckbeard Analysis thread?

They designed the game how they designed the game. Play it or don't play it. You want to talk about being an adult? Then be an adult and make your decision on whether or not you're okay with this game's design.

 

I've given DE a lot of money. And I'm okay with that. I've gotten a lot of hours out of this game. I don't need it to have been free of charge.

There are other games that I enjoyed, but did NOT like the money aspect. So I quit those games.

 

Done & done.

[Loza03]

On 2024-07-24 at 11:05 PM, NekroArts said:

At first glance these arguments looks like it's in the best interest for the players, but really it's to benefit the company. If someone is using these to support time gating and daily/weekly caps, they're the kind that knows that game studios are still businesses.

Yeah. Just as everyone likes sausage but hates how it's made, everyone wants an accessible, free-to-play game, but we gotta endure the practices that keep DE in business.

[TennoPain]

nothing new same topic for milionth of time DE need to earn time perhaps they reduce it its FREE to PLAY model thats how we build community 

We built the game together on this system and DE matters a lot to our community no matter 3 days mean nothing IRL