Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is

[CharallChaos]

2 minutes ago, quxier said:

The problem is not how easy or hard it is. The problem is that the solution to most problems is to bring bigger stick.

Satire post btw :P

[4thBro]

  

5 minutes ago, CharallChaos said:

You really like me huh?

 

[CharallChaos]

6 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

I am not voting No on the game having something for you.

 

Let me correct you there, you're voting no against yourself on the game having something for you when you vote against them not adding more content in.. in favor of fixing so many bugs that make the game unplayable to the point that people will quit before they are even able to get where you're at.

In effect, leaving less and less players to do the content you "want them to add." because people quit due to a buggy mess of a game.

You cant have your cake and eat it too.

Bug fixes first > Content later

Edited August 23 by CharallChaos

[Dioxety]

You can literally play with your eyes closed at this point. I think anybody that’s a high level warframe player would say the game is too easy and needs more dificult content.

Elite Deep Archimedea was a decent start, but even then a incarnon weapon just shreds everything.

[dwqrf]

il y a 44 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

Our starting point is WF is too easy.

This is the starting point given to us by the OP, Kaiga.

And I do wholeheartly disagree with this starting point. It is my opinion.

First, Warframe isn't easy. In fact, most of the people will only scratch the surface of the game ; because its difficulty lies in discipline, in time spent, and in insane repetition of tickling RNG. For me, that's difficult to achieve. Reaching the end of the game, where you truly have nothing anymore to do ; take a huge amount of smart play (playing in the right mission doing the right task). We could talk about the grind for rare cosmetics, the grind of the mod collection, the grind of the Codex, and so much more.

A lot of people reach a point where they don't feel like they have nothing to do anymore ; but that's because they reached the objectives they set themselves. Which is really fine. But that doesn't mean you did everything the game has to offer.

So from this starting point, we don't agree.

-

That doesn't mean I don't understand the superficial point of "Warframe is too easy". Because superficially; when we talk about Combat, Warframe is indeed an easy game compared to other game. It's not Dark Soul, it's not Ecco the dolphin, it's not Cuphead. (Even tough, I don't know anyone who beat Helios in Wyrmius. It's too hard). Sure. But Warframe never had a difficult combat system because Warframe always had too many unbalanced tools making cheesing possible ; and as people are lazy, they will always find the easiest path to complete the missions.

Of course, Warframe history of balance was erratic, making some frame or weapon quite useless, while some other were mandatory. That's where the idea of "balance the game, flatten the disrepancies, so we can have a propoer endgame" comes from. It's a fair idea, but it's really hard to apply, especially considering all the variables ; but not impossible per se. Some people would like enemies to be stronger, some people would like enemies to be more resistant, some people would like the combat faster paced ; and in the other hand, as equal opposite, some people would like the weapons to be weaker, and so on. But balancing the game with bigger ehp and longer ttk and precise maths in some great flattening variable would also reduce the variety of chaotic imbalance, the variable of power, and therefor, the power fantasy and the great feeling of progression. Warframe is at its most difficult at the beginning of the game, when you are weak, confused, and lost ; and every step you take makes you stronger, faster, and smarter, until eventually, and thankfully, it's over the top.

Sometimes people are weak because they use the wrong gear, sometimes it's because they use the wrong mods, sometimes it's because they use it in the wrong context, sometimes it's because they use the wrong set up of tools, and sometimes it's because they lack knowledge and don't master the mecanics. Being good at Warframe is about aligning all the stars ; and make a serie of good choice. It's not rocket science ; most people don't even do those choices themselves as guides and videos tell them the solutions straight away. And when change happens, they are lost ; while experienced players can adapt quickly.

But that's just the combat part.

-

As said before, Warframe has a deep endgame which isn't combat. For anybody which didn't do it's just "yeah... just spam those mission over and you'll get it" or even "pick helios and codex is a no brainer". But it couldn't be any further from the truth. The amount of knowledge you need to accumulate to clean everything the game has to offer is just pure insanity. It takes thousands of hours, and most of it is just research, on wiki, on guides, on forums, on patch note, and of course, in game. When doing those endgame task ; combat is irrelevant ; because you aren't even focusing on the combat part ; you don't need too because you have such a good gear, and thank god because you are already busy trying to do something else. Sometimes, you might even struggle because your gear isn't perfect, forcing you to focus on combat instead of on the task you are trying to accomplish. I would like to think I could make a list but it's way too damn deep to even find where to start. And all of that has nothing to with the idea of the combat endgame you have or think we need ; but it's a real endgame nonetheless.

And of course, non of the non-combat endgame is mandatory, but it still exist, and as it is a huge part of the existing game, it's worth trying to get into it, because that what Warframe is also about. Not just the space ninja slash slash pew pew ; but the actual looting part of the looter shooter. DE spent a lot of time polishing as good as they can the combat part, but they also spent a lot of time doing crazy sht on the side.

-
 

il y a une heure, 4thBro a dit :

To me, this naturally suggests that WF needs an endgame.

And to me Warframe already has many endgames that most people don't see, because they focus solely on the combat part. You cannot say Warframe needs more endgames, especially considering only a few extremely dedicated people really dig into the insane rabbit hole. You can say that Warframe need a better combat endgame. SURE. Their is always room for balance. You can always argue that the top game breaking tools needs to be nerfed and the weakest needs to be buffed ; all of that without breaking the power fantasy held by the rest of the untouched gear. There is a lot of ways that can happen. But any combat changes will affect most of the playerbase, make big superficial waves, hence creating a lot of fear when difficult combat content become necessary for progression via a new reward system.

But everybody would be really happy to see more accessible but challenging content added to the game. Ever. But it's much more difficult to create meaningfull content, for everybody, considering the abilities and point of view of the whole playerbase ; without even taking in account the tools we have access to.

But if you really want to spend more time playing Warframe, there is so much to do. So much. Maybe it's not what you want to do. But it's still there. And it's hard.

-

 

Il y a 1 heure, 4thBro a dit :

how endgame needs to be designed and programmed and integrated into Warframe.

When talking about combat endgame ; there is a lot of things you could easily add to the game to improve the depth of some existing content. Railjack SP. Arbitration SP. Liches SP. All of those would be actually difficult content to clear with the tools we have, and maybe sometimes; too difficult for most people. And again, that's not rocket science to make it fair, fun, and balanced. But adding those gamemodes should also be rewarding, rewarding of relevant loot for endgame players, which would create more power ; which would result in another series of post saying "we became too strong... again. Please make SP2". And that's what happened for the last years. Not so long ago, we didnt have EDA, Archon hunt, or even Steel Path. Eidolon were the hardest content we had. Now they are a speedrunning joke, not even worth being interested in ; because it was too hard, too complexe, to gear restricting, and players actually prefered to have fun "in normal warframe content" than in extremely tedious gameplay. Because Warframe combat should be easy and fun, flying around and smashing hordes. Hard combat content already exist in the game under different layers : Orphix missions, for example, forcing you to play mainly Operator and Necramech, is balanced, because you cannot use that many tools. And it's extremely difficult. I can't solo it. But it's not fun, and nobody plays it, even if it drops Arcane Energize ; because it's not Warframe.

Meanwhile, non-combat endgame just got deeper, deeper and deeper, with each update, making the veterans that'd like to hunt stuff having things to do for years. You just have to get interested about it.


-

Il y a 1 heure, 4thBro a dit :

We are still deciding between Yes and No.

We aren't. DE is still going to create content for most people all in the same time ; which happens to be sometimes early game (combat), sometimes mid game (combat), and sometimes endgame (combat) ; but every piece of content actually expand the existing endgame of Warframe's complexity and things to do. As an overgeared veteran, even a new level 1 quest give me a lot of things to do, much more than you can imagine, and it isn't the combat part. (Ok, maybe not the lotus eaters quest, but alas, the lotus eaters update made me spend a lot of time looking for the shrine, and I have to say RIP.)

Peace.

[MrDugan]

47 minutes ago, (PSN)ErydisTheLucario said:

Dude, really? Ik you think you're being cute, but this is just ridiculous.

This forum is full of people that think they're cute.  

[dwqrf]

 

[Sephylon086918]

8 minutes ago, Dioxety said:

You can literally play with your eyes closed at this point. I think anybody that’s a high level warframe player would say the game is too easy and needs more dificult content.

Elite Deep Archimedea was a decent start, but even then a incarnon weapon just shreds everything.

Don't even need incarnon

Bring a dante and be immortal while dealing respectable damage with noctua and 334

throw in a stynax and be at max energy 24/7

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Warframe is a game held back by how hard I am. (I mean stoically speaking. Tough.)

I watched an ad for Warframe today. It said try not to come. 

Except it also showed a Wisp battling up the stairs in a tusk plains base, jumping, hitting shots, taking cover, using abilities, finishing enemies, and generally being a space bada$$ in every sense of the word. She was moving, going and coming everywhere. Go to plains, come back to Orbiter. Go to Duviri, come back to Dormizone. Was lots of coming and going. 

Well heck I'd play that game. 

But actual in game warframe?

Slam kong thermal sunder, 24/7. Aoe explosions fill the map. 

There is no coming or going to the survival of the player, no reason to even come or go, or remember what the enemies do or even look like, as they're obliterated in seconds by nukes.

Why go and come to space ninja stuff from the ad when you can just shoot a rocket launcher at everything?

If this game had even a modicum of sense or irony at higher levels, it would be capable of all that depth, which is what's being advertised, obviously.

3/10 game, bad game design, play First Descendent instead. 

- quote from the Legendary Nintendo Developer Shigeru Miyamoto.

[GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, 4thBro said:

This is the original post. Although it merely implies the addition of a meaningful endgame, the author, Kaiga, has later directly supported this idea.

This post (the OP) has the 3rd highest Likes in the thread, sitting at 20 at the time of me posting this.

 

This post, on page 1, is the highest Liked post in the thread, sitting at 33. Although it does not directly state a side of the fence, it could be acceptably argued that it sides against having an endgame, due to its implication that adding difficult content could possibly upset the average, [terrible] player. (Whom is suggested to have less than 5% of the game knowledge of other players.)

Ultimately, I view this post as a middle ground post. Like I said, it definitely suggests that most players would be upset over the addition of an endgame. However, what closes it in for me as a middle ground post is that it balances out by suggesting that the addition of an endgame does not need to be a bad thing at all.

And, again, this is the most Liked post in the thread. Something that's slightly ambiguous in overall position. This means that it would be heralding in Likes from both sides, or even all three sides.

 

And this...

This masterpiece is the second most Liked post in the thread. Also on page 1.

This completely absurd, totally ridiculous post. Possibly a troll post. Possibly an intentional joke post.

Regardless of how people took it.

It is objectively silly.

And it is the second most Liked post in the thread.

 

And after this...

Page 2 caps off with 8 Likes on a single post.

Page 3 caps off with 3 Likes on a single post.

And the pattern continues. It picks up here and there, but ultimately, people don't care about a topic past page 1. Doing so would not be within the overall mantra of 2024.

 

I say all of this because it presents the main topic, and shows where most people stand on it.

And what it's showing is that a lot of people are on both sides.

 

Okay.

  Reveal hidden contents

Now let's start the conversation.

 

And that's where I'm gonna bring in the chart, to help break away from having to use a lot of words to show the same thing.

 

Our starting point is WF is too easy.

This is the starting point given to us by the OP, Kaiga.

Our goal - all of us - is to (objectively?) improve the game. We must figure out how to get there.

 

Many of us, including the OP, suggest having a proper endgame. So now our chart looks like this:

 

We must decide on whether an endgame is indeed the path to take. In my opinion, that seems logical. I'll make another chart to explain why.

 

The red line is the enemies. The blue line is the player.

At the start of the game, the player needs to acquire strength in order to compete with the rising power of the enemies. It's not totally consistent, as sometimes you feel overly strong, then next thing you know, you feel like you fell behind and need to level up your gameplay to get back on the curve. But overall, this whole experience is only while you're still new.

Eventually, the enemies cap off. Their growth flatlines.

But this happens WAYYYYY before your own flatline. You are able to continuously improve yourself. But after a certain point, there's no actual reason to. You are left with nothing to test yourself on. And that is why WF feels like an unfinished game.

To me, this naturally suggests that WF needs an endgame. That is what would fill in that red flatline.

 

So I vote Yes on endgame. And so do many others.

 

But many people vote No. And this should be where we try to get to the bottom of it. Why do people vote No? If not an endgame, what do they propose? Let me update the chart accordingly:

 

If you're going to say No to endgame, then you need to present us with the new subtopic that isn't endgame.

Never even mind the fact that we're skipping the part where you actually tell us why an endgame aint it. If you vote No on endgame, you gotta back it up, just like we can back up why we feel that we do need it.

But even skipping that... If not endgame, then what?

 

But speaking of skipping... this is where I have an additional problem with your nirvana fallacy.

You are actually skipping ahead. You are asking us... "What does the endgame look like? Tell us exactly. Give us the details."

Allow me to update the chart accordingly:

Do you see my confusion here?

 

Your question that you keep trying to press me on... is the following step AFTER accepting that we do, in fact, need an endgame.

So... are you voting Yes on endgame??? Because I'm pretty sure you've been voting No this whole time. I don't want to misrepresent you. But this is, in fact, why fallacies are problematic. They lead to malfunctioning conversation sequences.

It makes no logical sense that you are voting No on endgame, but are trying to discuss Step 2 of the Endgame Path. Never even mind the nirvana fallacy. Are you trying to tell me that you're voting Yes on endgame???

 

As it stands, nobody has any obligation to sit at the drawing board and present anyone with a 50 page essay on how endgame needs to be designed and programmed and integrated into Warframe.

We aren't there yet in the conversation.

We are still deciding between Yes and No.

I can appreciate the details you added here, but you have some pretty heavy issues to address first. For starters, it is, and has been from the beginning, your job to convince us why yes is the answer. We don't have a need to discuss the no because the entire, 12 year history of the game IS the argument of "no". You have to make a compelling argument to satisfy a player community where 3000+ hours is very common...meaning the game's current setup is as optimal as needed so you have to do the convincing. 

Regarding your pathway to yes, be sure to STOP reminding everyone you're trying to convince that they must explain, in detail, why they said no. You are the "politician" out to win us over, so you should've had that "50 page essay" ready to go. Why? Because this wasn't a discussion, it was a terrible sales pitch filled with insults (let me remind you that you called the average Warframe players "terrible players"), with no convincing details, no realistically useable examples and nowhere near enough positive enthusiasm to even remotely try to gain a decent window for an ideal sales capture. Your charted post, itself, is too far ahead of the conversation. Your 50 page essay is required first and then (and ONLY then), can we enter the next step: critiquing your ideas and determining if it's ideal. 

Now, my thought of endgame: DE has created enough of them to generate a playerbase where 3000+ hours of playtime is normal, offers power-up rewards that benefit every weapon and frame, provides the ideal challenge RECIPE that follows the community theme of the game's entire portfolio and soul, and has replay value strong enough to boast a playerbase with 3000+ hours being considered normal. It's an extremely potent wall that you will have to punch through and, according to everything I've read in this thread, you guys certainly don't have anything close to compelling enough to sell YOUR ideal endgame...whatever that actually is. You guys have some work to do...and these previous pages might as well be page zero. 

[Quest]

i actually agree the game should be easier but this is a terrible way to go about it, you're basically just posting spam at this point

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

3 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

I can appreciate the details you added here, but you have some pretty heavy issues to address first. For starters, it is, and has been from the beginning, your job to convince us why yes is the answer. We don't have a need to discuss the no because the entire, 12 year history of the game IS the argument of "no". You have to make a compelling argument to satisfy a player community where 3000+ hours is very common...meaning the game's current setup is as optimal as needed so you have to do the convincing. 

Regarding your pathway to yes, be sure to STOP reminding everyone you're trying to convince that they must explain, in detail, why they said no. You are the "politician" out to win us over, so you should've had that "50 page essay" ready to go. Why? Because this wasn't a discussion, it was a terrible sales pitch filled with insults (let me remind you that you called the average Warframe players "terrible players"), with no convincing details, no realistically useable examples and nowhere near enough positive enthusiasm to even remotely try to gain a decent window for an ideal sales capture. Your charted post, itself, is too far ahead of the conversation. Your 50 page essay is required first and then (and ONLY then), can we enter the next step: critiquing your ideas and determining if it's ideal. 

Now, my thought of endgame: DE has created enough of them to generate a playerbase where 3000+ hours of playtime is normal, offers power-up rewards that benefit every weapon and frame, provides the ideal challenge RECIPE that follows the community theme of the game's entire portfolio and soul, and has replay value strong enough to boast a playerbase with 3000+ hours being considered normal. It's an extremely potent wall that you will have to punch through and, according to everything I've read in this thread, you guys certainly don't have anything close to compelling enough to sell YOUR ideal endgame...whatever that actually is. You guys have some work to do...and these previous pages might as well be page zero. 

🎤💧

[GEN-Son_17]

7 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Warframe is a game held back by how hard I am. (I mean stoically speaking. Tough.)

I watched an ad for Warframe today. It said try not to come. 

Except it also showed a Wisp battling up the stairs in a tusk plains base, jumping, hitting shots, taking cover, using abilities, finishing enemies, and generally being a space bada$$ in every sense of the word. She was moving, going and coming everywhere. Go to plains, come back to Orbiter. Go to Duviri, come back to Dormizone. Was lots of coming and going. 

Well heck I'd play that game. 

But actual in game warframe?

Slam kong thermal sunder, 24/7. Aoe explosions fill the map. 

There is no coming or going to the survival of the player, no reason to even come or go, or remember what the enemies do or even look like, as they're obliterated in seconds by nukes.

Why go and come to space ninja stuff from the ad when you can just shoot a rocket launcher at everything?

If this game had even a modicum of sense or irony at higher levels, it would be capable of all that depth, which is what's being advertised, obviously.

3/10 game, bad game design, play First Descendent instead. 

- quote from the Legendary Nintendo Developer Shigeru Miyamoto.

Whoa....then that means Shigero Miyanoto is a Warframe vet!? 😮💯

I mean, he has to be. You can't even get the kaboom stuff to kill in seconds until you get the mods, MR ranks, Endo, credits, build materials and faction points. Right??

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

3 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

Whoa....then that means Shigero Miyanoto is a Warframe vet!? 😮💯

I mean, he has to be. You can't even get the kaboom stuff to kill in seconds until you get the mods, MR ranks, Endo, credits, build materials and faction points. Right??

 

I think so, implicitly, based on some of his quotes I made up.  

"Warframe is bad for you? That's what they said about Rock 'N' Roll."

-Shigeru Miyamoto. 

I like to think he is an Excalibur and Lavos main! 

[quxier]

45 minutes ago, CharallChaos said:

47 minutes ago, quxier said:

he problem is not how easy or hard it is. The problem is that the solution to most problems is to bring bigger stick.

Satire post btw :P

Yeah, it sounded "like that" & you have posted to similar topics.

Still, even in satire there is some truth.

[GEN-Son_17]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

I think so, implicitly, based on some of his quotes I made up.  

"Warframe is bad for you? That's what they said about Rock 'N' Roll."

-Shigeru Miyamoto. 

I like to think he is an Excalibur and Lavos main! 

I'm thinking Frost. Everyone is a Frost main. Grrrr

[Numerounius]

Ugh are we seriously doing this?

100% certain this is going to be removed/merged by mods since this is just a spoof of this thread in which I am confused as to how it has 20 pages of comments. You even have the white background from copy-pasting that comment instead of being original.

 

As for my answer which mainly derives from that post:

Yes, there is a reason why Duviri is heavily criticized since it goes against the ethos of Warframe and strips us of too much power and flexibility.

As for the rest of the game, too many branching paths to say that it is being held back in some capacity when you can venture to another branch.

 

E:Merged just as I expected!

Edited August 23 by Numerounius

[4thBro]

12 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

And I do wholeheartly disagree with this starting point. It is my opinion.

First, Warframe isn't easy. In fact, most of the people will only scratch the surface of the game ; because its difficulty lies in discipline, in time spent, and in insane repetition of tickling RNG. For me, that's difficult to achieve. Reaching the end of the game, where you truly have nothing anymore to do ; take a huge amount of smart play (playing in the right mission doing the right task). We could talk about the grind for rare cosmetics, the grind of the mod collection, the grind of the Codex, and so much more.

A lot of people reach a point where they don't feel like they have nothing to do anymore ; but that's because they reached the objectives they set themselves. Which is really fine. But that doesn't mean you did everything the game has to offer.

So from this starting point, we don't agree.

This is like arguing that a rank 1 Gladiator that's also the guild and raid leader of the world's first down of the expansion's final boss in WoW hasn't accomplished everything there is to do in the game, because they didn't get the achievement to explore every part of the entire game's map.

 

If you wanted to argue that, sure. It's technically true.

But it sure wouldn't be the hill I'd want to die on.

 

17 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

And to me Warframe already has many endgames that most people don't see, because they focus solely on the combat part.

I don't play Final Fantasy 10 for blitz ball.

I even think it's okay. A lot of people like it way more than I do. And a lot of people like it way less than I do.

 

But if after fighting Seymour for the first time, the game just blue screens, and so the only thing to do in that game would be to quit the main story just before that point and then do nothing but blitz ball...

Would it really be the Final Fantasy 10 that we all know & love?

 

Warframe is like FF10 if it didn't have the Monster Arena. But not only that... but also if all of its main story content was given to you after various patches over the years, and even 10 years later, we still haven't gotten to the Jecht fight.

You're telling people they need to be happy with what they got, and enjoy the blitz ball games. Everyone else is already powerful enough to beat Nemesis in the Monster Arena, but we're still only at the Ifrit temple in the main story patch.

 

28 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Meanwhile, non-combat endgame just got deeper, deeper and deeper, with each update, making the veterans that'd like to hunt stuff having things to do for years. You just have to get interested about it.

That's kind of our point, though. Your neck of the woods is getting attention. Ours isn't.

We want some of that attention.

 

I will never be interested in scanning every enemy in the game. Or collecting the music things. Or grinding every useless ass weapon to 30 for MR. These kinds of things are not fun or interesting or fulfilling to me in any way whatsoever. If they were, I wouldn't even be playing Warframe for that kinda thing.

 

Warframe is a game with a bunch of characters that I can customize in a lot of ways, with a wide selection of weapons that I can customize in at least several ways, and then go fight enemies and see what it is that I have created.

But as it stands... nothing means anything.

 

I can go play a Netracell, and some guy is sweeping entire rooms with an Arca Plasmor that's probably built extremely poorly. And he's playing some super strong Frame and somehow manages to get downed. Probably an MR30. No punishment for getting downed whatsoever, and thus, never learning from the mistakes, and never having the need to improve.

Maybe that's what you're saying the game SHOULD be like. "Casual."

But that seems a bit crazy to me, don't you think??? I could probably go into an Arbitration right now, and somebody that's at least MR25 is going to die in the first 5 minutes as long as it's not Infested. Those enemies aren't even level 100.

Or they'll have a close call, and want to extract on first rotation.

 

I just feel insulted on behalf of DE when I see this kinda stuff.

And you really, REALLY don't want to try to cater to hyper-casual, entitled players too much. Eventually, they will want to have everything while giving nothing. And then even they will leave, because the fundamental truth that victory needs to be meaningful to be satisfying will always prevail. As mentioned, if this wasn't the case, all of the "power fantasy" players would just play Earth missions all day. The reality is that those types of players still need their enemies to be strong enough to have the victory be meaningful. And the only reason the game still offers this to them is because they aren't quite at the higher levels of gameplay yet. Or, even if they are... then the reason their easy victories mean anything is because OTHER people aren't there yet, and so, their victories still hold meaning because it's something they have over other people.

If EVERYBODY could easily clear all content, then their power fantasy would crumble, because the meaningfulness of their victories gets vaporized.

 

----------

 

I want to add... while typing my post with the charts, I've come up with an alternative to adding an endgame.

But you won't like it.

 

The alternative would be to rebalance everything in the entire game, so that the game's CURRENT content is sufficient enough to BE the endgame content.

 

To me, though, I feel like that's just a harder way of accomplishing what adding an endgame would do (while packaging endgame with buffing the things that are weaker).

But... from where I'm sitting, that's really the only other alternative. The bottom line is that we want things to matter. But, right now, they do not.

[RichardKam]

43分钟前 , GEN-Son_17 说:

DE has created enough of them to generate a playerbase where 3000+ hours of playtime is normal, offers power-up rewards that benefit every weapon and frame, provides the ideal challenge RECIPE that follows the community theme of the game's entire portfolio and soul, and has replay value strong enough to boast a playerbase with 3000+ hours being considered normal. It's an extremely potent wall that you will have to punch through. 

Random guys on the Internet: nah, no challenge, lazy developers, stupid game, amateur, anyone can do better than this. I don't know how, go ask the developers, not my job.

[dwqrf]

il y a 13 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

The bottom line is that I want things to matter. But, right now, they do not.

They do not ; to YOU.
 

il y a 15 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

The alternative would be to rebalance everything in the entire game, so that the game's CURRENT content is sufficient enough to BE the endgame content.

You just created Steel Path.
 

il y a 16 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

We want some of that attention.

You are getting a lot of attention, you just don't see it, don't feel it, or maybe it's never enough for you.


-


Please, if you respond (to anyone), respond with " I ", not " WE " . And please, don't insult the playerbase, thanks in advance.

[4thBro]

33 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

For starters, it is, and has been from the beginning, your job to convince us why yes is the answer. We don't have a need to discuss the no because the entire, 12 year history of the game IS the argument of "no".

Well this isn't really true. The game existing for 12 years doesn't mean "it works as it is, and doesn't need to be changed."

Warframe is INFAMOUSLY a game that draws people in, but does not hang onto them. They still get money from people. And, largely by its very design, it takes a long time for people to get to the point of hitting that wall.

So is it successful? Yes.

But that does not dismiss its errors, and it does not mean that it can't be better.

 

It does not have a 12 year history that tells us "no." It actually very much has a 12 year history that tells us "yes."

 

36 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

You have to make a compelling argument to satisfy a player community where 3000+ hours is very common

But do I, though???

A lot of people already agree that we need an endgame. And not only are most of those players the ones with thousands of hours, but additionally, most of the players with thousands of hours are also the ones that would say it needs an endgame.

A lot of the X are Y, but also a lot of the Y are X.

There is a distinct correlation.

I really do not feel like I need to make a compelling argument at all. Anyone that doesn't already think the game needs an endgame will PROBABLY get there on their own eventually.

Wolverine might not be able to beat Magneto in a fight, but Magneto will eventually die of old age.

 

40 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

You are the "politician" out to win us over, so you should've had that "50 page essay" ready to go. Why? Because this wasn't a discussion, it was a terrible sales pitch filled with insults (let me remind you that you called the average Warframe players "terrible players"), with no convincing details, no realistically useable examples and nowhere near enough positive enthusiasm to even remotely try to gain a decent window for an ideal sales capture.

Yeah, I'm not a politician though. Or... more accurately, whatever I may be in whatever given analogy, YOU are also that.

We are the same.

I'm not somehow on the backfoot in any way in this situation. I don't have the burden of proof about anything any more or less than anyone else does.

The starting point isn't you in the lead, and I have to catch up somehow.

 

I can easily flip it around, and tell YOU that I need YOU to prove to ME why the game does not need an endgame. Or, even more specifically, why it SHOULDN'T get an endgame.

 

And, for the record... I wasn't the first one that said the average player is bad. That was the guy that I showed the image of, and it was the most Liked post in the thread.

However, it is indeed true, now, isn't it? It doesn't matter if it's "insulting." It's true. The average player is terrible. This is true for all games. And the general sentiment is true for all people. The average person is incredibly unimpressive.

Do we wanna feed into that, and keep asking less & less of people? How exactly do you think we got to this point in the first place?

 

Should games be fun?

Yes.

But how do you really not feel a certain type of way when you have to keep reviving an MR30 Inaros in level 80 content?

 

50 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

critiquing your ideas and determining if it's ideal. 

Yeah, this is what I'd like to actively avoid. I'm ALREADY being slammed with the nirvana fallacy.

Why would I spend literal hours of my free time humoring some guy's request for a 50 page essay, only to have them cherry-pick something to ad hominem me with, and say that it invalidates the entire idea for an endgame because they don't like that detail?

 

Seriously. Answer me that.

No, actually, answer me this:

Would YOU do it? Would YOU write that essay, and present it to these guys?

 

So, no. Like I said, and like my charts indicate.

If we decide that an endgame is the path, THEN we discuss on what the specifics can be. Until then, it's a total waste of time, and the conversations that would ensue would not have productivity in mind, but rather, tearing each other down as the main goal.

 

And you know this is true.

 

56 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

and these previous pages might as well be page zero. 

Agreed.

 

And that's because so much time was wasted on fallacies. Nobody can remain focused.

 

So let's try!

 

Warframe is too easy.

 

Endgame?

 

No.

 

Okay, so if not endgame, what do YOU suggest?

*holds microphone to your mouth*

[RichardKam]

3分钟前 , 4thBro 说:

A lot of people already agree that we need an endgame. And not only are most of those players the ones with thousands of hours, but additionally, most of the players with thousands of hours are also the ones that would say it needs an endgame.

"So, what does an endgame look like?"

A lot of people: I don't know. Challenging?

"So, is <xxx> a challenging content, and if not, why?"

A lot of people: no, and I don't know why. We still want challenging endgames.

"So, what does an challenging endgame look like?"

A lot of people: I don't know.

[4thBro]

Bro, can you just #*!%ing post something with some meat for once???

If I went back and searched all of your posts, what do you think I'd find???

What if I tallied it up, and gave you the ratio of posts completely made up of fallacies, versus posts that contributed to the topic? What do you think the result would be?

 

One more post outta you like that, and I'll do exactly that as my very next post in here.

 

But for now, I'm going to bed. Try to behave.

[RichardKam]

16分钟前 , 4thBro 说:

Bro, can you just #*!%ing post something with some meat for once???

If I went back and searched all of your posts, what do you think I'd find???

What if I tallied it up, and gave you the ratio of posts completely made up of fallacies, versus posts that contributed to the topic? What do you think the result would be?

 

One more post outta you like that, and I'll do exactly that as my very next post in here.

 

But for now, I'm going to bed. Try to behave.

[dwqrf]

I tried. I really tried.